2009.04.14 13:00 - Trev goes Bonpo

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

    After a few minutes of general discussion Trev poses a question

      Trevor Berensohn: Can I ask something? Everyone's opinion on somethng?
      aurel Miles: why is that? they can't hurt me
      Mickorod Renard: yes pls
      Wol Euler: fire away
      arabella Ella: yes Trev
      Fefonz Quan nods
      aurel Miles nods
      Wester Kiranov: please do
      Trevor Berensohn: Well.. My daily practice is pretty much Tibetan Bonpo
      arabella Ella: yes
      Trevor Berensohn: It's very similar to PaB, but not exactly the same
      Mickorod Renard: can u explain more?
      arabella Ella intruiged
      Trevor Berensohn: It seems t me tht I am doing much the same as PaB, but my terminology is very specifically Tibetan
      Trevor Berensohn: So I don't share much here
      Trevor Berensohn: Someties I wonder if I should even be coming here
      arabella Ella would like to hear more
      Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
      Mickorod Renard: your experience can be very rewarding for us
      Trevor Berensohn: Though I enjoy, and relate to all of you so
      arabella Ella: ]about Tibetan Bonpo
      Fefonz Quan: it might be refreshing to you and us if you share your experiences in a new terminology
      Trevor Berensohn: Hmm my practice, in a nutshell is basically to let each moment of experience arise,
      Mickorod Renard: some extra understanding may help some of us struggling in PaB
      Trevor Berensohn: and just be present in awareness of the emty essnce that is giving rise to that moment of experience
      Wol Euler: what is the cause of your discomfort, Trevor? where does that "should" come from?
      Trevor Berensohn: Well, it's a very specific way of looking at this whole Being thing, but we don't call it Being at all
      Trevor Berensohn: Howeve our description of the experience matches PaB's pretty spot on
      Fefonz Quan: yes, sounds like it
      Mickorod Renard: what do you call it Trev?
      arabella Ella: so what do you call it trev?
      Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm just being present in the natural mind, and the other way of experiencing, the normal mind
      Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
      Mickorod Renard: I think it would be right for me to say that most of us here have quite diferent religious backgrounds
      Fefonz Quan: well i fnid being is so elusive here too...
      Fefonz Quan: Being*
      Trevor Berensohn: I think I get stuck on the Being terminology
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: i think that having more than one hypothesis is better than only having one.
      Mickorod Renard: well, I do too
      Fefonz Quan: me too, so i avoid it very often :)
      Trevor Berensohn: because every definition I've found, suggests something concrete
      Trevor Berensohn: So I refrain fromcommen most ften
      Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
      Trevor Berensohn: & consider solitary practice (in SL- Ha!)
      Fefonz Quan: (or i start a group of sessin themes with pema in order to make others confused too ;-))
      Wester Kiranov: :)
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahah
      Trevor Berensohn: (Heh)
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: perfect!
      Mickorod Renard: but being seems to work well in that it can be accepted by folk from diferent backgrounds..if u know what I mean
      Fefonz Quan: Trevor, i would guess the term 'Being' is confusing to many of us, but we try to share experiences rather than theoretical accurate words/concepts
      Wester Kiranov: so what's your question trev?
      Mickorod Renard: I think you make valuable contributions here Trev

    All hungry for enlightenment we probe Trev for more

      Trevor Berensohn: I guess I'm just not sure how involved I should be.. I don't want to muddy the water any
      Wol Euler: oh please :)
      Wol Euler: as if your bonpo could be any muddier than
      Mickorod Renard: you wont muddy anything
      Wol Euler: onigokko
      Fefonz Quan likes Mudy Waters :)
      Trevor Berensohn: Was just hoping that feedback would help me um chart my course in this
      Trevor Berensohn: Hahaha
      Wol Euler: stop
      arabella Ella: LOL
      Wester Kiranov: :D
      Wester Kiranov: needed that
      arabella Ella: the onigokko is so so funny
      Wol Euler: :)
      sophia Placebo: that was sudden
      Mickorod Renard: it would be nice sometime if you could give an insite into your understanding,,it may help us grasp being

      Mickorod Renard: oops
      Trevor Berensohn: and just in time heh
      Mickorod Renard: he he he
      Wol Euler: I would be sorry to see you leave, Trevor, especially if you did so because you thought you were confusing us.
      sophia Placebo: g2g , see you all
      aurel Miles: i am always confused
      Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm I've just begun receiving ths linege.. should ask my teacher how much I should share
      arabella Ella: I agree with you there Wol
      Mickorod Renard: bye sophie
      Wester Kiranov: bye sophia
      Wol Euler: bye sophia
      aurel Miles: it is my natural state
      Trevor Berensohn: good to see you sophia
      Wester Kiranov: agree with wol
      aurel Miles: bye sophia
      Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia :)
      arabella Ella: Trev, i think we all enjoy your company here
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,I was beginning to enjoy your company
      sophia Placebo: good to hear from you too trev
      Trevor Berensohn: normal, aurel ;-)
      Trevor Berensohn: heh
      aurel Miles smiles
      Wol Euler: could you tell us of direct experience, perhaps, rather than of the philosophy that got you there?
      Trevor Berensohn: I bet you're naturally more aware than you're, um, aware of
      Fefonz Quan: I would say you've got some way to go before you can take part in teh PaB great confusers here :)
      Wol Euler: if you feel that you shouldn't speak of hte philosophy...
      Fefonz Quan: competition*
      Wester Kiranov: I think we all are here to help each other unmuddy our water
      Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
      Trevor Berensohn: Hahaha
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: or..to listen as we each unmuddy our own!
      Trevor Berensohn: Well te Bonpo seem to be all about practices
      Fefonz Quan: (or throw mud across the pool :))
      Wester Kiranov: or find that there isn't any difference between our own and others'
      Trevor Berensohn: that remove obstacles to our awareness of each moment of all this
      Trevor Berensohn: more than philosophy or anything
      Mickorod Renard: nice
      Fefonz Quan: that sounds very interesting Trevor.
      Mickorod Renard: we need Bonpo
      Trevor Berensohn: just like this PaB practice... it gets you in the zone
      Trevor Berensohn: and hels you tay thre increasingly
      Fefonz Quan: and many people brought Biddhist/Taoist/Christian/other concepts around
      Wester Kiranov: is this a kind of buddhism, or is it the original tibetan religion? or something else?
      Wester Kiranov: just to get feel for the background
      Trevor Berensohn: Oh. It was the indigent belief/practice of Tibet before Buddhism came there
      Mickorod Renard: wow
      Trevor Berensohn: The Bonpo claim it came from Western Tibet/Pakisan, like 18 thousand years ago or so
      arabella Ella: cool
      Wester Kiranov: ok
      Trevor Berensohn: But their main thoughts on the ultimate nature of things, and enlightenment, seem to be in line with Buddhism
      Mickorod Renard: how long have you been practicing Trev?
      Trevor Berensohn: Well.. just a year & a half, formally
      Trevor Berensohn: But I had a practice since I was a child, that is the exact same practice as theirs
      Mickorod Renard: and has it been an easyish journey?
      Trevor Berensohn: It was maddening until I found others who had similar experiences
      Trevor Berensohn: But once I met some Buddhist & Bonpo lams, it as bee incresingly smooth
      Trevor Berensohn: *lamas
      Mickorod Renard: I think looking for like minded souls is why we are here
      Wol Euler nods
      Mickorod Renard: fantastic
      Trevor Berensohn: mmhmm, that seems to be a common thread
      arabella Ella nods
      Trevor Berensohn: Anyway, thank you so much for your responses; I'm less hesitant to speak of my experience here now
      Wol Euler: good :)
      arabella Ella: may I ask Trev what were the key motivating forces for you to take on Bonpo
      Mickorod Renard: breaking through the conditioning of western style life is dificult for me
      Trevor Berensohn: Ah yes Mick, I think only a personal practice can keep helping with that
      Mickorod Renard: by personal practice,,do you mean something more intimate than what we do here?
      Trevor Berensohn: Oh! I woul say this IS a great personal practice
      Trevor Berensohn: ara, that would be a long story heh
      Trevor Berensohn: But let's just say that it's th only pproac to spirituality/enmlightenment that seems to encompass everything
      Mickorod Renard: thats reassuring Trev,,thanks
      arabella Ella: ok Trev but whever you are happy to share your motivation and have time just let me know
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am very interested
      Mickorod Renard: sometimes looking from a slightly diferent angle just helps
      Mickorod Renard: so you could contribute well, i am sure
      Trevor Berensohn: Well when I was young, I would just drop my emotions and "self", and directly know.. much like PaB actually
      Trevor Berensohn: In this state of mind, many times I would know things about ppl, or situations, that were pretty deep
      Mickorod Renard: I am mid 50's and only just learning the benefits to that Trev
      arabella Ella: amazing
      Trevor Berensohn: I got kicked out of my church coz would't cal it "god" thugh
      Trevor Berensohn: *though
      Trevor Berensohn: Heheh, same thing, I think, Mick... You describe similar results, indeed
      Fefonz Quan: sounds like a kick in the right direction :)
      Trevor Berensohn: Haha

    Time has flown by and we still want to know more

      Fefonz Quan: (btw - is there a dream workshop today?)
      Mickorod Renard: yikes,,not sure
      Trevor Berensohn: Dunno
      arabella Ella: if i remember correctly i think dreams is today Tuesday
      arabella Ella: Gilles is Wed
      Trevor Berensohn: What time?
      arabella Ella: Phenemo is Fri
      arabella Ella: 2pm SL time
      Wol Euler: most are at 2pm
      Trevor Berensohn: uh oh
      arabella Ella: but i may be wrong
      Fefonz Quan: 2pm SLT, but please get back to the current discussion :0
      Fefonz Quan: :)
      arabella Ella: so PaB at 1pm
      arabella Ella: Kira at 2pm
      Mickorod Renard: I struggle with God too Trev,,to some degree I am reluctant to deviate due to loyalty
      arabella Ella: but we often go on here with this discussion
      Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm even my Tibetan lamas hae suggsted tat I'mdeluded, because I'm not having realizations in the "right" order heh
      aurel Miles: i know God exists because i struggle with him/her/them
      Mickorod Renard: but my concept orf God doesnt fit in with Christian belief
      Trevor Berensohn: But the Bonpo just say, "Yes, ihappens differently for everyone" heh
      Trevor Berensohn: Ah it sounds lkie in some ways it does, Mick.. in some ways not?
      arabella Ella likes that ... happens differently ... cool
      Mickorod Renard: If one has an encounter,,it is deeply personal and no doubt individual
      Fefonz Quan: encounter suggests someone else is involved
      Wol Euler: God perhaps? or Being?
      Mickorod Renard: mmmmm spiritual encounter
      Wol Euler: or your inner self...
      Trevor Berensohn: hmmm
      arabella Ella: all of the above
      Fefonz Quan: well God is not on my list, and Being is not someone (and surely not else ;-))
      Mickorod Renard: hmmmmm
      Trevor Berensohn: just recognition, awareness of awareness itself?
      Fefonz Quan: i go with you, Trev
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,an awareness is proberbly the best description
      Trevor Berensohn: Coz what really comes to know itself in this kind of practice?
      Trevor Berensohn: Certainly not that normal, everyday sort of mind
      Trevor Berensohn: It seems to oly be ble to make stuff up lol
      Trevor Berensohn: So what is this Being?
      Mickorod Renard: and our geographical and upbringing has an effect on our perceptions
      Wol Euler: yes (answer to Trevor)
      Trevor Berensohn: Is it No-Thing, giving rise to the appearance of Every-Thing?
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: our attempt to make a something out of nothing?
      Trevor Berensohn: I'm not sure
      Fefonz Quan: suchness, emptiness, you name it
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: i don't care.
      Trevor Berensohn: And I guess that's what we're exploring here lol
      Fefonz Quan: yep!
      Trevor Berensohn: =)
      Mickorod Renard: Pema has said something about the emptyness,,that is also inportant
      Wester Kiranov: and the fullness...
      Mickorod Renard: yes
      Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...
      arabella Ella: and timelessless too
      Trevor Berensohn: Yes, I thnk that because of that emptiness, there can be the fullness of experience
      Wester Kiranov: yes
      Trevor Berensohn: Or did I just make that up
      Trevor Berensohn: lol don't remember exactly
      Mickorod Renard: sounds good to me Trev
      Fefonz Quan: (Corvi reminded me of some quote i once saw: "if no mind - nothing matters, if no matter - i don't mind")
      arabella Ella: seems like conujunction repaces 'either/or' and we arrive at empty and full
      Mickorod Renard: and besides,,cos of all the noise in life,,making an emptiness in our conciousness is a way,,for me anyway,,to take on what i shut out
      Trevor Berensohn: Like Dakini was always saying... Beyond
      Mickorod Renard: are you familiar with the living water idea Trev?
      Trevor Berensohn: Conjunction? Can you explain a bit of that?
      Wester Kiranov: well I do find that opposites tend to claapse into each other and be the same ara
      aurel Miles: I agree Wester
      aurel Miles: wholeheartedly
      Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm no Mick
      Wester Kiranov: which means I must be very awake as I am sooo tired
      Trevor Berensohn: Awww Wester
      Wol Euler excuses herself quietly and slips away to bed. Goodnight all, take care.
      Trevor Berensohn: Nite Wol
      Mickorod Renard: bye Wol
      Trevor Berensohn: Sleep well
      Fefonz Quan: (according to wester fefonz is on the way to enlightenment :))
      arabella Ella: conjunction ... as in emptines and fullness merging together crisscrossing and overlapping
      Fefonz Quan: bye Wol :)
      arabella Ella: nite Wol
      Wester Kiranov: I am going to leave before my brain overloads. But this was a very lovely evening.
      Wester Kiranov: namaste
      Fefonz Quan: night Wester
      Trevor Berensohn: Ah good to see you Wester
      Mickorod Renard: bye |webster,,thanks
      aurel Miles: night Wester
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: g'night, Wester.
      Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm i wonder if that is their relationship to each other, ara
      Trevor Berensohn: They seem to be dependent upon one another, but how... is my thought
      Mickorod Renard: its just metaphorically speaking,,but,,sometimes of late,,if i sort of make a tear in my usual conciousness,,then what I percieve as being gets sucked into the void that i have created
      arabella Ella: i dont think i am actually referring to relationship it is more like proximity in the sense of overlapping
      Trevor Berensohn: mm to both of you =)
      Mickorod Renard: grin

    the Dzogchen comes to get us

    Trevor Berensohn: Mick I sear that sounds like the Dzogchen way of "cutting through"
    Mickorod Renard: yes?,,never heard of that?
    Fefonz Quan likes the word 'Dzogchen'
    Trevor Berensohn: And I agree, ara, that they can be experienced simultaneously, or just one at a time
    Trevor Berensohn: Yes, as in, "Why ar you wearin that ail toay? You look like such a Dzogchen!"
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh wait, that's not it at all
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hehehe!
    Trevor Berensohn: lol
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does sound great, though.
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    aurel Miles: tee hee
    Trevor Berensohn: Dzogchen is a Bonpo practice
    arabella Ella: Storm mentioned Dzogchen the other day and I had looked it up on line ... very interesting schism right? and sad too since there is conflict?
    Mickorod Renard: hows it work then?
    Fefonz Quan: sad?
    arabella Ella: conflicts are always sad
    arabella Ella: schisms too
    Fefonz Quan: ah, about the retreat?
    aurel Miles: i disagree
    Trevor Berensohn: Conflict? Schism?
    arabella Ella: yes Fef
    aurel Miles: conflict is not always sad
    Fefonz Quan: ara, you shuld give some background here
    Trevor Berensohn: Wait I sooo missed something
    Mickorod Renard: yes pls Ara
    aurel Miles: if there were no conflict then there would be no resoultion
    Trevor Berensohn: What what?
    arabella Ella: i dont rreally know much to say much either
    arabella Ella: just that it is another strand of buddhism
    arabella Ella: from what i can gather
    Mickorod Renard: Trev,,dig us out
    arabella Ella: and each group sort of condemns the other and cannot tolerate the others ... and i think that sounds sad
    arabella Ella: it also has to do with Dalai Lama
    arabella Ella: but cant remember detaikls
    Trevor Berensohn: Ummmm
    Trevor Berensohn: welllll
    Trevor Berensohn: lol
    arabella Ella: go on Trev ... help me pls
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think Storm has written about this.
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: somewhere...hmm
    Trevor Berensohn: Actually, from my experience, one "side," if you will, did what's the sord...
    Trevor Berensohn: *word
    arabella Ella: Dzogchen split from Dalai Lama if I remember correctly and claim to be more authentic
    Trevor Berensohn: like when you go on witch-hunts? I don' know he word.. it's not coming to me
    arabella Ella: yes
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i always feel some dissapointment finding that buddhist fight among themselvs like any others...
    Mickorod Renard: guess we are all human
    Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm but the Dalai Lama has received & practices the Dzogchen lineage
    Trevor Berensohn: There are different renderings of all of that
    arabella Ella: what i said is from memory and my memory is very fallible
    Trevor Berensohn: We culd have a whole history lesson on that
    Mickorod Renard: I saw a video on the conflict
    Fefonz Quan: well i found the email thread, itr is about Dorje Shugden practices, not Dzogchen
    arabella Ella: thanks for the clarification Fef
    arabella Ella: apologies to all for my fallible memory
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
    Trevor Berensohn: Yes, the Nyingm & Bonpo are the only schools that officially practice Dzogchen
    Trevor Berensohn: But the Kagyu and the Dalai Lama unofficially do, too lol
    Fefonz Quan: glad to bring the buddhist peace back in order :)
    arabella Ella: /smiles
    Trevor Berensohn: That only leaves the Sakya that just don't lol
    Trevor Berensohn: I think it's coz Dzogchen is a differnt process than sutra or tantra
    Fefonz Quan: we should remember that though for us those are just different types of practice/phylosophy, in TIbet there are a lot of political forces involved around it
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh, and a few ppl were persecuted at one time over the differences
    Trevor Berensohn: I think it is a kinder, gentler debate now heh
    Fefonz Quan: well, nobody escapes the spanish inquisition ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: ok guys and gals,,I have to go home
    Fefonz Quan: bYE mICK, TAKE CARE
    Trevor Berensohn: Kk good to see you Mick
    Fefonz Quan: (sorry caps)
    Mickorod Renard: but its been good havin u all here
    Trevor Berensohn: Wow yell it out, Fef =)
    Mickorod Renard: and hope to see u all soon
    Fefonz Quan: (caps trev, sorry... ;-))
    Trevor Berensohn yawns
    aurel Miles: THank you Mickenrod
    aurel Miles: oops
    Mickorod Renard: will the log come to me auto Fef?
    aurel Miles: Mickorod
    Mickorod Renard: np
    Fefonz Quan: not sure Mick, i mostly take it inworld.
    aurel Miles: i need to be off
    Fefonz Quan: but it is supposed to
    Mickorod Renard: ok thanks
    Trevor Berensohn: kk good to see you all
    aurel Miles: stuff to do - such as it is, although it is not late here
    Mickorod Renard: I will sort it one way or another
    aurel Miles: just dinner time
    Trevor Berensohn: will do this again (4 times a day lol)
    arabella Ella: i must go too very late here now nearly midnight
    aurel Miles: bye!
    arabella Ella: bye all nite nite
    Fefonz Quan: bye ara :)
    Mickorod Renard: cool,,bye folks thanks
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins. "bye, Ara!"
    aurel Miles: bye all!
    Fefonz Quan: you can loose the tail now mick :)
    arabella Ella: oh and thanks Trev
    Fefonz Quan: yes, thanks for teh talk Trev.
    Trevor Berensohn get up (with a flair)
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh thank you all
    Fefonz Quan: and bye aurel
    aurel Miles: Bye Fefonz
    Trevor Berensohn: Thank you, aurel
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Aurel, TRevor
    aurel Miles: for what?
    aurel Miles: nice to be here
    Trevor Berensohn: for loosening me up enough to talk
    Trevor Berensohn: =)
    aurel Miles: take care all -
    aurel Miles: oh, good!
    Trevor Berensohn: later
    aurel Miles: i was feeling like an obstacle today
    aurel Miles: so that makes me feel good
    Trevor Berensohn: Ha not at all
    aurel Miles: Bye!
    Trevor Berensohn: kk
    Trevor Berensohn: Or, "Watch out, haha
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Corvi :)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Fefonz.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: who is guardian?
    Fefonz Quan: Mick
    Trevor Berensohn: I stil hope didn' open can of, um worms
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
    Fefonz Quan: who, you?
    Trevor Berensohn: mmhmm
    Fefonz Quan: in what way?
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh, that "schism" or whatever comes up, sooner or later lol
    Trevor Berensohn: It's the old, but which came first? game to my mind
    Fefonz Quan: no, not at all. there are several people here that practice some traditions regularly
    Trevor Berensohn: "I got dibs on the Dzogchen practice!" "No, I do!"
    Trevor Berensohn: lol
    Fefonz Quan: dibs?
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
    Fefonz Quan: (sounds like little furry creatures :))
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
    Trevor Berensohn: It's lke which group wants to seem more "right" or something? I dunno
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
    Fefonz Quan: (climbing on the poor Dzogchen practitioner)
    Trevor Berensohn: Or "authentic" yuck
    Trevor Berensohn: Haha Tribbles!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
    Fefonz Quan: yeah!
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh whoops I just looked at the front of my AV
    Fefonz Quan: well people just talked about it, i don't think any of today participants are involved in such debates
    Trevor Berensohn: Why didn't someone tell me I was wearing these fool things?
    Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm sme of my teacers have been
    Trevor Berensohn: One was the abbot of a monastery
    Fefonz Quan: we respect your choice of appearance Ttrev L:)
    Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles
    Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm. "Choice" of "appearance"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's quieter here now.
    Trevor Berensohn: Good topic!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: /em nods,
    Trevor Berensohn scribbles (illegible) note to self
    Trevor Berensohn: Aaahhhhhhh
    Fefonz Quan: (thought we discussed a little of it today ;-))
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
    Trevor Berensohn: Oh yes
    Trevor Berensohn: She got the ball rolling indeed
    Trevor Berensohn: fun!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, grinning.
    Fefonz Quan: is teh recording still on?

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