2009.04.15 01:00 - "The Power of text"

The Guardian for this meeting was Susi Alcott.

In this meeting sophia, Fael and I had chat concerning how texts effect  and comments are by whoever feels like adding them. The text has not been modified any way, so that each one could experience the steps of the chat by oneself. Yet; want to thank Fael for teaching the needed for this page.

Susi Alcott

Fael Illyar: Hi Susi :)
Susi Alcott: Hi Fael
Susi Alcott: Tarmels asked back up
Susi Alcott: I promised to do that in case I have learned how to deliver the text to wiki
Fael Illyar: The most important thing for a guardian is to be here and introduce any new people who happen to come :)
Fael Illyar: posting the log is secondary :)
Susi Alcott: and there's the info in those pillars
Fael Illyar: Yes, it's also to be here so there is someone to talk to :)
Susi Alcott: well...thinking I might be able to that ...sure depends that too of several things :)
Fael Illyar smiles.
Fael Illyar: then after that, if you claim the log and pass the link to someone else who knows how to post it, that's quite enough :)
Fael Illyar: (you get the link after the meeting ends)
Fael Illyar: but to get the link there's a need to claim the session
Susi Alcott: that I had 'got'
sophia Placebo: greeting
Susi Alcott: hi sophia
Fael Illyar: Hi sophia :)
sophia Placebo: hi susi , fael
Fael Illyar: Oh, nice clothes :)
sophia Placebo: ty :)
sophia Placebo: how the session being claimed by gaurdian?
Fael Illyar: click the thing in the middle of the fountain and then click on the claim button in the blue menu it gives you
Fael Illyar: that'll claim it for you.
sophia Placebo: oops :)
Fael Illyar: only do it if you intend to post the log too though :)
Fael Illyar: (or know who to pass it to to post it)
Susi Alcott: claimed it now
sophia Placebo: i wasnt intending :) i thought there would be more bottons to click
Fael Illyar: it's pretty simple :)
Fael Illyar: has to be, more buttons --> more confusion
sophia Placebo: ok
Susi Alcott: but these buttons are all clear
Fael Illyar: Yes, the key to making things people can actually use is making things work the way people expect.
sophia Placebo: true
sophia Placebo: could i paste something here and perhaps you tell me how you feel about it ?
Fael Illyar: of course :)
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
sophia Placebo: it is about Allah , i want to know the similarities btw islam and buddism
sophia Placebo: Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.
Susi Alcott: well...may I tell what I know without reading that all
sophia Placebo: sure
Susi Alcott: as buddhims also tries to help people to understand that each life is unic
Susi Alcott: in Quran that is said very perfectly
Susi Alcott: with the sentence that is not so well understood
Susi Alcott: even it's clear
Susi Alcott: as this sentece is that sentence;
Susi Alcott: "Each one's life is unic; that is written into the stars, and only Allah knows that"
Susi Alcott: in case people would understand this, they also would understand that all the advises of Quran are only advises
Susi Alcott: cuz that sentence 'undo' all the rest
sophia Placebo: written in the stars?
Susi Alcott: but in buddhism that is more said asking people not to have any other god but oneself
Susi Alcott: that is the sentence in Quran
sophia Placebo: what do you mean by unic?
Susi Alcott: which means that no human being on Earth can know even own's life
Fael Illyar: unique
Susi Alcott: sry my lag in english
Susi Alcott: there's also this meaning about that life is written in stars
Susi Alcott: that it is written
Susi Alcott: that there is the plan
Susi Alcott: so; buddhims speaks about karma
sophia Placebo: im afraid that that is not quran my friend
Susi Alcott: well; very deeply religious egyptian person teached me huge much of Quran; and that's what he teached me
Susi Alcott: all he teached he quoted Quran
Fael Illyar: To me, it seems as if the concept of God (or Allah, which I see as just another name for the same) is in a way both separate and not separate from you. Both at once.
Fael Illyar: Christians (and to my knowledge people in Islam as well) approach the idea from the separate side of things and leave the not separate part mostly out.
Susi Alcott: there is also 99 names for Allah in Quran
sophia Placebo: true feal
sophia Placebo: Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.
Susi Alcott: have You sophia read Quran yourself ?
sophia Placebo: sure susi
Susi Alcott: and you remember all what's written there ?
sophia Placebo: almost yes , i can recognise what is quran and what is not at least
Fael Illyar: Buddhism, at least some of them, tries to approach from both senses at once.
Susi Alcott: well; I would like to tell more about that sentence
Susi Alcott: may I ?
sophia Placebo: which one susi?
Fael Illyar: (sure, go ahead) :)
Susi Alcott: which you said that Ur afraid that is not in Quran
Susi Alcott: ok; I'll tell one example which I take to be very clear
Susi Alcott: as people in Egypt are hightly educated for example in English
sophia Placebo: yes it is not quran
Susi Alcott: but I cannot arabick at all
Susi Alcott: so; with that sentece I released many ppl to realize Quran and it's spirit; they free themself of huge many fears
Susi Alcott: but this story ---as I said---is special
Susi Alcott: as that happened during Ramadan
Susi Alcott: (to you Fael ; if you donno; that's time whem people may not eat, drink, smoke, or make love from 5 in the morning untill 5 afternoon)
Susi Alcott: so; there was this man dying cuz he has diabetes
Susi Alcott: and I was brought to him that I 'de help him
sophia Placebo: from sun rising untill sun sitting
Susi Alcott: (those times was what there was 'followe' in Egypt=
Susi Alcott: )
Susi Alcott: ok
Susi Alcott: that man got better, but I spoke with him also about that sentence
Susi Alcott: and he nodded that now he do understand
Susi Alcott: that because of his illness he must not 'have' Ramadan the way people usually do
Susi Alcott: so; he also ---like all of the people in Egypt I spoke about that sentence---
Susi Alcott: did know that to be in Quran, but addmitted that they had not understood it's meaning
Susi Alcott: so; I'm sorry sophia, but I cannot 'give up' to your thought that it wouldn't be written in Quran
Fael Illyar: perhaps the English translation has it but with different words?
Susi Alcott: that is very possible, but please; notice what I said about ppl's skills in Egypt to speak englihs
Susi Alcott: and they all felt that with there heart that it is true
Susi Alcott: just like there's huge many christians that has not understood the sentence in bible
Susi Alcott: "God is everywhere"
Susi Alcott: instead of understanding this, they claim that other people are not within god
Fael Illyar: Yes, one of the few hints to the "non separate" side of things.
Susi Alcott: and judge agains that sentence of bible
Susi Alcott: I've often thought, that as it's sead, that each book has at least one good sentence
sophia Placebo: i cant eeven bring a verse that may go wrong in translation for that sentence susi
Susi Alcott: and thought of these sentences, as well the buddhist first teaching
Susi Alcott: well; I know only that I've been teached by the person who remember Quran with his mind of it's each letter
Susi Alcott: and in living life in Egypt that sentence did free people from sufferings, and my life has teached, that only the truth can release that way
sophia Placebo: O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain hath spread abroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allah in Whom ye claim (your rights) of one another, and toward the wombs (that bare you). Lo! Allah hath been a watcher over you.
Susi Alcott: and the person who teached me, surely read Quran in it's first language
sophia Placebo: that is quran about the word nafs which could be translated to self rather soul
sophia Placebo: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
Susi Alcott: well; them 99 names for Allah...
sophia Placebo: And He it is Who hath produced you from a single being, and (hath given you) a habitation and a repository. We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have understanding.
sophia Placebo: all about nafs - self
Susi Alcott: sry but I dont understand your own english sentence, and not capable to read this much that I could but feel what that sais
sophia Placebo: They are asking thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little.
Susi Alcott: so; could only tell what I know
sophia Placebo: this is about rooh -spirit or soul
Susi Alcott: well...already what is spirit and what is soul....
Susi Alcott: there's opinions
Susi Alcott: but...well...how about if you try to 'replase' the name Allah with the word 'love' ?
Susi Alcott: (donno if that could be one of them 99 other names to Allah told by Quran
Susi Alcott: just thought
sophia Placebo: habib
Susi Alcott: as there's huge hostile energies coming from that text, but I believe it's cuz of translations; not what's been ment
Susi Alcott: ty
Susi Alcott: so; 'translation' ; be loyal to love....which created ...
Susi Alcott: how would people feel with that ?
sophia Placebo: http://www.sufism.org/society/asma/
sophia Placebo: the 99 names
Susi Alcott: so;,,isn't it peoples made, and other people to understand...or not....
Susi Alcott: specially all translations are 'man made'
Susi Alcott: as imo; all the religions are ment to guide people to love each other
Susi Alcott: not to 'damm' and judge..like those texts feels to do
Susi Alcott: notice pls; feels
Fael Illyar: Al-Wadud looks like it would be close
Susi Alcott: thinkign also that 'watch over'.....
Susi Alcott: that's written the way that it would be something bad
sophia Placebo: yes fael
Susi Alcott: but one can also think that it's good that I'm 'taken care'
Susi Alcott: so; who's decided what name to use within the text ....
Susi Alcott: dont matter if one seeks the other name from the list
sophia Placebo: what text sysi?
Susi Alcott: for example the text you just wrote
Susi Alcott: it's already completely different with the name Al-Wadud
Susi Alcott: words can be good, but they can be also bad.....even they were the same words
Susi Alcott: it's so much how one understand them
Fael Illyar is somewhat amused by "Allah" meaning "The greatest name"
Susi Alcott: and how they are connected ; are they part of long text; picked up...or the short cut....or the simple base truth....which ---imo---is always easy to say shortly
Susi Alcott: ah; yet; millions of people do think so
Fael Illyar: Well, that's what it means :)
Fael Illyar: at least according to this page sophia gave :)
Susi Alcott: and yes; I met 'few' muslims within my journeys to Egypt, as I didn't make any tourist trip
Susi Alcott: and allmost all were very loving and willing to help all the help needers
Susi Alcott: that I learned, that it's not Quran that creates bad
Susi Alcott: that's something else which does it; them 'translations' how people use Quran's text
Susi Alcott: as well it's within the bible
Susi Alcott: or any other culture of religion
Susi Alcott: as well that can be with all of the words
Susi Alcott: with typos or not :)
Susi Alcott: well; I told how I feel the text to be 'hostile'....but completely different when used the understandable word; love....
Susi Alcott: would you mind sophia to tell how you take the text you wanted to ask our opinion ?
sophia Placebo: where do you felt hostility?
Susi Alcott: sry ...you pased so much text that my earthly mind picked up only such that I felt possibility to 'translate again'
Fael Illyar: The quotes from Quran you pasted here. They have a hostile feel for me too.
Fael Illyar: but that could really be the translation
sophia Placebo: could be
Fael Illyar: I can kind of understand why the Christian church only used one language for a long time.
Susi Alcott: and yes; take that it's good to think also, that Quran is written long time ago...
Susi Alcott: good point Fael
Fael Illyar: even if it created the kind of situation that only priests could read it
Susi Alcott: as even the dot can 'change' the text.....
Fael Illyar: Translating text properly is a very difficult task
Susi Alcott: well; You've done that; and perfectly
sophia Placebo: the text i wanted your opinion about was written by the first man who belived in prophet muhamad
Susi Alcott: but you are very right
Susi Alcott: well..he didn't write it in english....
sophia Placebo: did you read the text?
Fael Illyar: the first text wasn't hostile though.
Susi Alcott: and I didnt' realize that you ask opinion only of part of the text
Fael Illyar: felt like it was trying to describe what Allah is. But, naturally, only describing what Allah isn't.
Susi Alcott: so do you mean that you know his nowadays incarnation and quated his written english text ?
Susi Alcott: ] sophia Placebo: the text i wanted your opinion about was written by the first man who belived in prophet muhamad
sophia Placebo: this is the whole text i wanted to know how you feel about , wriiten by a man 1400 years ago
Susi Alcott: but not in english...
sophia Placebo: translated by a man in 21 c
sophia Placebo: Praise is due to Allah whose worth cannot be described by speakers, whose bounties cannot be counted by calculators and whose claim (to obedience) cannot be satisfied by those who attempt to do so, whom the height of intellectual courage cannot appreciate, and the divings of understanding cannot reach; He for whose description no limit has been laid down, no eulogy exists, no time is ordained and no duration is fixed. He brought forth creation through His Omnipotence, dispersed winds through His Compassion, and made firm the shaking earth with rocks.
sophia Placebo: he foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute. Thus whoever attaches attributes to Allah recognises His like, and who recognises His like regards Him two; and who regards Him two recognises parts for Him; and who recognises parts for Him mistook Him; and who mistook Him pointed at Him; and who pointed at Him admitted limitations for Him; and who admitted limitations for Him numbered Him.
Susi Alcott: and sry; my englis is not enough to understand the whole text as words
sophia Placebo: Whoever said in what is He, held that He is contained; and whoever said on what is He held He is not on something else. He is a Being but not through phenomenon of coming into being. He exists but not from non-existence. He is with everything but not in physical nearness. He is different from everything but not in physical separation. He acts but without connotation of movements and instruments. He sees even when there is none to be looked at from among His creation. He is only One, such that there is none with whom He may keep company or whom He may miss in his absence.
sophia Placebo: done
Susi Alcott: so; gave my opinion the way I could
Susi Alcott: o.k. ?
Susi Alcott: (feeling again much hostile energies)
sophia Placebo: from where susi?
Susi Alcott: ah; there's no direction to point
Susi Alcott: or...maybe too many directions....
Susi Alcott: well...there's never complete lonelyness, and also words are connectors
Susi Alcott: also you may feel bad for the words and 'send' this energy
Susi Alcott: or just reading the text yourself
Fael Illyar: from my own reading that text, one thought was that someone is trying to cram every possible way of describing into one sentence.
Susi Alcott: may create this hostile energy
Fael Illyar: which ends up making a mess you can't make heads or tails of
sophia Placebo: :) thank you fael
Susi Alcott: ah; and that also can create hostile energies; anger, fears, thrustrating's creations...
Susi Alcott: as sure; words are powerfull; they are also connectors
Susi Alcott: well...I didn't yet 'get it'...in case you told already that how you take the text ?
sophia Placebo: what do you mean by take?
Susi Alcott: that how do you feel for the text ?
sophia Placebo: respect
Susi Alcott: well; that's the choice of the attitude
Fael Illyar: I read about half of the text and then gave up realizing that I'm not going to understand that without reading the whole Quran first, if even then.
Susi Alcott: that does not tell your feeling for it
sophia Placebo: the last text is not quran feal
Susi Alcott: well; gave up for that already for the text I saw....
Fael Illyar: ah, but it is related?
sophia Placebo: related?
Fael Illyar: meaning the writer expects the reader to be familiar in many kinds of ways of using words.
Fael Illyar: uses which most likely come from Quran, or are at least explained there.
Susi Alcott: well...still would like to know Ur feelings for the text; you feel good or bad for it ?
Susi Alcott: sophia
sophia Placebo: not really fael
sophia Placebo: yes susi
Susi Alcott: yes which ?
Susi Alcott: good or bad....or both ???
sophia Placebo: good susi
Susi Alcott: ty sophia
Susi Alcott: well; may I be curious why you wanted to get to know how we take it ?
Fael Illyar: (a side note, using more than one question mark (?) or exclamation mark (!) also feels a bit hostile to me)
sophia Placebo: i dont know , just happens to my mind
Susi Alcott: well...is your mind now better or worse for the knowlege of our responding ?
Fael Illyar: (or to be more accurate, it feels like the other is being impatient)
Susi Alcott: (donno dont tell the reason, but the reason still is 'there')
sophia Placebo: sure susi , i shall investigate my reasons :)
Susi Alcott: well; not needed for me, but would like to know how you took our responding
sophia Placebo: sure
Susi Alcott: so; you feel better or worse for that ?
sophia Placebo: oh i thought you will tell me ,
Susi Alcott: (normal curiosity of human mind makes the activity
sophia Placebo: sorry
Susi Alcott: hm...
Susi Alcott: tell what ?
Susi Alcott: if the text is good or bad ?
sophia Placebo: no :) my mistake ,didnt read the question well
Susi Alcott: hm
Susi Alcott: lemme remake my question
Susi Alcott: could we help you somehow ?
Susi Alcott: to give something you wanted ?
sophia Placebo: you already did :)
Susi Alcott: ty
Fael Illyar smiles.
Susi Alcott: ->_/!\_
Susi Alcott: ->Faenik
Susi Alcott: ;)
sophia Placebo: see you later
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Susi Alcott: have nice time
Fael Illyar: See you later sophia :)