2009.04.18 19:00 - Maintaining the Observer?

The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

Eos Amaterasu: HI Scathah
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eos:)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
Pema Pera: Hi Scathach, Eos!
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema!
Scathach Rhiadra: Pema, is the Hall of appearances in Rieul restricted access?
Pema Pera: shouldn't be!
Pema Pera: is it?
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Folks
Scathach Rhiadra: I was just there and there was those red lines, no access
Pema Pera: (I have another problem, can't claim the recording log -- can someone else try?
Pema Pera: hi Tarmel!
Pema Pera: just left clicking doesn't work anymore (for me)
Scathach Rhiadra: I can claim it
Pema Pera: hahaha, for Tarmel it does !?!
Tarmel Udimo: heheh, did you too Scath?
Pema Pera: no
Scathach Rhiadra: no I left it for you:)
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe and i'll give it to Pema:)
Pema Pera: you just left clicked right?
Tarmel Udimo: right clicked on mine
Pema Pera: right? but then it gives you the option to "sit here" etc
Tarmel Udimo: and touch
Pema Pera: ah!
Pema Pera: DIdn't know that worked too
Pema Pera: so far I have always left clicked (including this afternoon)
Pema Pera: oh well, no idea why that didn't work now . . .
Pema Pera: thanks!
Tarmel Udimo: that's how I learnt if after much trying:)

Tarmel Udimo: wow hi widger
Tarmel Udimo: widget
Pema Pera: Hi Widget!
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Pema Pera: Have you been here before, widget?
Tarmel Udimo: have you been here before Widget?
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe double speak
Pema Pera: hahaha
Widget Whiteberry: No, Pema, I've just met the Kira people this past 10 days
Pema Pera: you can see, WE have been here before :)
Pema Pera: welcome!
Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Widget Whiteberry: thank you
Widget Whiteberry: I'm delighted to be included
Pema Pera: ty!
Tarmel Udimo: the group has probably been together in various forms and disguises over many lifetimes:)
Widget Whiteberry nods

Pema Pera: btw, Eos, I enjoyed reading some recent chat logs, and I found a great one-liner by you: "Absolute -> being good -> doing good -> relative"
Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel, may well be :-)
Widget Whiteberry: brb, I'll catch up
Pema Pera: did you just come up with that spontaneously?
Eos Amaterasu: Cointextually
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: coining it there an then :)
Eos Amaterasu: Pun was unintended, but that's how they happen!
Pema Pera: :-)
Tarmel Udimo: when one is 'being' is one automatically good, being good?
Pema Pera: perhaps there is no "one" then :-) ?
Tarmel Udimo: :)
Widget Whiteberry: back and reading
Tarmel Udimo: is absolute being always exhibiting good qualities?
Pema Pera: It is so heard to talk about Being . . . but somehow it seems to go well together with the 9-sec experiment. Such a short nano-mediation only makes sense within a most radical view, I feel
Widget Whiteberry: how is being absolute or not absolute?
Pema Pera: normally talking about Being comes at the end of a decade-long or so curriculum of intense meditation
Pema Pera: and it would be considered confusing, at best, to even bring up the term . . . .
Pema Pera: Being allows, does not create. Being is beyond the realm of the relative, yet calling it "absolute" is equally misleading. Calling it "good" is also misleading, since Being is beyond all distinctions including good and bad. It's tough!
Pema Pera: so we "play as Being"
Pema Pera: rather than analyze being
Pema Pera: and while playing we listen to what Being may have to say . . . .
Pema Pera: if that makes any sense :>)
Pema Pera: does it?
Widget Whiteberry may be in over her head
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Tarmel Udimo: yes, except being allows, does not create?
Pema Pera: to create something suggests a creator and a created / creature
Widget Whiteberry: hmmm, a created something
Pema Pera: but since nothing "exists" for Being, only appears, "creating" is not quite right
Tarmel Udimo: ahhh even if it is implied the creation takes place spontaneously
Widget Whiteberry: Being recognizes?
Pema Pera: Being remains within the realm of Being, nothing "emanates" or "flows" out of it
Pema Pera: Being includes all cognition of any type
Pema Pera: including the appearance of a pair {recognizer, recognized}
Pema Pera: but Being is byond such distinctions
Widget Whiteberry: Pema, are you using 'being' as a state of existence?
Pema Pera: no
Pema Pera: rather to point beyond all distinctions
Widget Whiteberry: an entity?
Pema Pera: including the distinction between existing and non-existing
Pema Pera: it is not an entity
Pema Pera: Being IS
Pema Pera: that's all you can say about it . . . . but you can point to it in different ways
Tarmel Udimo: an activity
Pema Pera: and most importantly it can be a resource in your life
Eos Amaterasu: YOu can take 9 second, 90 second time outs for it
Pema Pera: in fact, it is the only resource there ever was, is, will be -- it stares us in the face, but we have difficulty seeing its simplicity
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: a bit like the light in a movie projector
Pema Pera: hard to find while engrossed in a movie
Pema Pera: not realizing all is light

Eos Amaterasu: in the timeout nothing is happening, everything is happening, awareness is happening
Eos Amaterasu: but that happens all the time
Eos Amaterasu: but the timeout helps
Pema Pera: yes
Eos Amaterasu: when you "don't want to leave", that is "good", I think
Eos Amaterasu: like the biblical story of Christ and people on a mountain, and they don't want to leave
Eos Amaterasu: re Tarmel's qustion about being and good, goodness, if there is no question of leaving, that's "good", I would say
Eos Amaterasu: full and empty
Eos Amaterasu: finger painting
Tarmel Udimo: it was kind of retorical
Tarmel Udimo: assuming that if we follow through with letting being see and operating from Being, will we as humans act in a 'good' way
Tarmel Udimo: since we still inhabit a human form
Eos Amaterasu: if in tune with Being, then I think action can be naturally harmonious
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: there is no guarantee, there is no formula to be "good", but I as Eos said, letting Being be and see can help us be more in tune
Pema Pera: and that can lead to being "better" in many ways
Pema Pera: Hi Anonymous!
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Anonymous: Hi
Tarmel Udimo: hi anonymous
Anonymous: where is everybody?
Anonymous: Tarmel therr u r
Pema Pera: Welcome to our group, Anonymous!
Anonymous: ty
Anonymous: Tarmel
Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
Anonymous: rather not please
Anonymous: but thanks anyhow
Anonymous: Cobuskova invited me
Pema Pera: ah, Corvi! In any case, welcome to our group
Pema Pera: We normally put our conversations on our blog, but I will exclude your name

Pema Pera: Tarmel, this question of "good" is so tricky . . . .
Widget Whiteberry: very subjective
Pema Pera: good as opposed to bad -- and good as in "natural", at ease
Pema Pera: two very different usages of teh word "good"
Widget Whiteberry: good as pleasing
Widget Whiteberry: good as benefiting .... something
Eos Amaterasu: Being good
Eos Amaterasu: from which may or may not come doing good
Widget Whiteberry: good as useful?
Widget Whiteberry: oh, that would be doing good
Tarmel Udimo: yes I know and in fact I should not have used the word good, it has so many implications and includes the duality of bad
Eos Amaterasu: good is not a bad word :-)
Pema Pera: oh, you can use it, as long as we agree upon what it means
Pema Pera: hehe, Eos, yes
Pema Pera: good is good when used in a good way :)
Tarmel Udimo: I think what I was more really asking is around integrity
Tarmel Udimo: when seeing as being, if one's personal filter's have not be recognised can being still see clearly?
Tarmel Udimo: how much does Being override our humaness?
Pema Pera: Being doesn't "do" anything . . . .
Eos Amaterasu: You mean our humanness as in tendency to do good or do bad?
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Corvu
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello corvi
Eos Amaterasu: I think when we lose touch with Being we try harder, to do good
Eos Amaterasu: or we end up doing "bad"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all
Eos Amaterasu: playing as Being allows.....
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Covu
Tarmel Udimo: Hi Corey
Pema Pera: With respect to "[19:37] Tarmel Udimo: when seeing as being, if one's personal filter's have not be recognised can being still see clearly?" -- the idea is to really let Being see -- to step out of the way, rather than to pretend-play that I am Being as a kind of actor -- if that makes any sense?
Pema Pera: asking Being to show what Being seeing can mean
Tarmel Udimo: yes I understand
Widget Whiteberry: can Being be asked anything?
Pema Pera: it goes against anything we've ever learned . . . .
Pema Pera: yes and no Widget :)
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆

Tarmel Udimo: Did you read my response to your email Pema?
Pema Pera: we can learn to listen, though, in some sense
Pema Pera: when, Tarmel?
Tarmel Udimo: to the one about PaB?
Pema Pera: which one about PaB?
Tarmel Udimo: It will perhaps explain why I am asking these questions
Eos Amaterasu: guiding in a museum?
Tarmel Udimo: to the google group
Tarmel Udimo: yes
Pema Pera: sorry, so many emails -- when roughtly, and what Subject line or content?
Pema Pera: ah, found it ! -- sorry, no, haven't read that one yet
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Tarmel Udimo: no worries
Tarmel Udimo: anyway I have domnated the session enough:)
Tarmel Udimo: its somebody's else turn
Pema Pera: (reading it now)
Pema Pera: thank you, Tarmel, that's a great email -- sorry I hadn't caught that one yet!
Pema Pera: Glad to see that it really helped with your work
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: If I can make one suggestion:
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
Widget Whiteberry: can it be shared here?
Tarmel Udimo: of course!
Pema Pera: perhaps instead of letting Being look through your eyes in some way, how about letting Being see without any reference point at all
Pema Pera: letting Being see all and everything, simultaneously, inner and outer, real and imagined -- would that make any sense?
Tarmel Udimo: yes that could be next
Pema Pera: it would be nice to compare those two approaches
Pema Pera: Tarmel, shall I copy the text to Widget in IM?
Eos Amaterasu: "your eyes looked thru your mother's face"
Tarmel Udimo: sure no worries pema
Tarmel Udimo: yes Eos
Widget Whiteberry: I asked because, if you were going to respond to Tarmel
Widget Whiteberry: it might be useful if the rest of us had context for your remarks
Tarmel Udimo: one is always maintaining the observer
Tarmel Udimo: I think its important
Pema Pera: Widget, everyone else has already gotten the email
Tarmel Udimo: its a way of seeing the path that is unfolding
Widget Whiteberry: ah, ok
Pema Pera: but I'll copy it now for you
Widget Whiteberry: ty

Tarmel Udimo: the thing is I didn't do anything. I didn't say to being look through my eyes like that, its just what happened and I observed it
Pema Pera: yes, and that was clearly a great thing to let happen, judging from your description!
Pema Pera: and there are many other great things that we can let happen as well
Tarmel Udimo: yes in fact what i didn't mention was that time was suspended
Pema Pera: we normally would think "one is always maintaining the observer" -- but that may not be true
Tarmel Udimo: one min my watch said 1:10, the next it was 1:45
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: or at least we might be able to drop the "one" the "self" and the notion of "observer" altogether
Pema Pera: yes, time experience can totally change . . . .

Widget Whiteberry: that was helpful ... I've had that experience
Tarmel Udimo: the one, the self easy to drop, observer not so easy:)
Pema Pera: can you tell us about that, Widget, how that felt?
Widget Whiteberry: it felt the Tarmel described
Pema Pera: indeed, Tarmel, impossible to drop, but perhaps we can sidestep :-)
Widget Whiteberry: deep even breathing
Widget Whiteberry: less of a sense of self
Widget Whiteberry: more awareness of not self
Widget Whiteberry: very* patient
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Pema Pera: Hi Pila!
Widget Whiteberry: alert but not tense
Tarmel Udimo: > at sidestep
Pila Mulligan: hi
Pema Pera: Thank you, WIdget, yes, very recognizable
Widget Whiteberry: spine straightened
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Tarmel Udimo: hey so its all true:)
Pila Mulligan: oops
Tarmel Udimo: thanks Widget:)
Tarmel Udimo: hi Pila
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
Pema Pera: dropping is such a tricky term -- letting be may be better, since there is no force involved, no reaching, no trying to change a state, etc
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Anonymous: greetings Pila
Anonymous: and everyone else too
Pema Pera: :)
Anonymous: ty for having me in your group
Pema Pera: you're welcome Anonymous!
Pema Pera: If I can come back to your email, Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: yes?
Pema Pera: I think it is fascinating to describe how you felt, how you saw and were, and especially that some of all that was recurrent
Widget Whiteberry nods
Pema Pera: and I would love to hear from others, now or later, in how far their experiences overlapped or were similar
Corvuscorva Nightfire waves as she leaves the group.
Anonymous: nn
Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi
Tarmel Udimo: bye corey
Pema Pera: and at the same time it is also very interesting to see whether such experiences can be dropped, so to speak, hard to find the right words, transcended sounds too stiff, to make room for different ones, even more open in some way
Pema Pera: Bye Corvi!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye all
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Corvi
Tarmel Udimo: yes, execept without the observer we won't be able to tell about them:)
Pema Pera: you won't be
Pema Pera: Being will :-)
Tarmel Udimo: because there is no one to tell anything
Pema Pera: we'll see about that
Pema Pera: let's try :-)
Pema Pera: let's not start with conclusions
Tarmel Udimo: hummm okay we'll see:)
Pema Pera: seriously, I'd love to hear what happens if you try to let Being see without any vantage point
Pema Pera: and independent of your body or even your mind
Tarmel Udimo: that kind of sounds like a dare there Pema :)
Pema Pera: hehehe
Pema Pera: I trust ya
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Anonymous: you will be completely unopinionated
Pema Pera: :-)
Tarmel Udimo: grins
Tarmel Udimo: okay I'll jumo into the abyss and report back, I think Scath said she was up for coming too:)
Tarmel Udimo: didin't you Scath:)
Tarmel Udimo: *jump
Scathach Rhiadra: !?!
Pema Pera: looking forward to it, Tarmel !
Pema Pera: shall we give Scathach a little push perhaps?
Tarmel Udimo: any other takers?
Tarmel Udimo: yep

Pema Pera: how about doing it right now, here?
Pema Pera: for just a couple minutes, to get our toes wet?
Pema Pera: just to get a feel?
Tarmel Udimo: I'm game...
Pema Pera: perhaps I could describe it briefly, to summarize?
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: So we will let Being see, but without letting Being look out of our eyes, or letting Being look from any point in space. In fact, letting Being see applies to any phenomenon, anything that appears in any way, whether a material object or a thought or feeling or memory of fantasy, anything at all
Pema Pera: let's do that for two minutes, starting now, and then compare notes, if we feel like it
Pema Pera: Here we go :-)
Pema Pera: That was two minutes -- thank you!
Pema Pera: Would anyone like to say a few words about what happened for them?

Anonymous: saw a beach and waves
Anonymous: very peaceful
Pema Pera: nice!
Widget Whiteberry: I just drifted off
Widget Whiteberry: forgot to keep my eyes open
Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: That's fine too, Widget, we're just exploring
Pema Pera: and eyes open and closed are both interesting to play with
Tarmel Udimo: back, stepped outside
Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel?
Tarmel Udimo: still processing
Pema Pera: take your time!
Eos Amaterasu: My own stuff kept happening, but with bits of sense of being lifted up by a swelling, welling up
Tarmel Udimo: sorry have nothing to say right now
Pema Pera: that's perfectly fine, Tarmel!
Tarmel Udimo: except feel a bit strange
Pema Pera: that's normal, as Stim would say :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: and I just became very aware that it is after 4 am here, and how tired I am..
Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
Scathach Rhiadra: have to go, Namasté
Pema Pera: radically changing perspectives, and specially when begining to drop them, can be rather disorienting at first
Pila Mulligan: bye Scathach
Tarmel Udimo: bye Scath
Pema Pera: bye Schathach!
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: and it is good to take it easy
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: go slow, ease into it
Pila Mulligan: I thought of reading a book and how immersed you can become in a world and events of the author's creation, this book being the video screen showing second life
Pema Pera: anything remotely related to forcing or reaching or denying or suppressing leads away from Being . . . .
Pema Pera: yes, it's a curious story we're weaving here together, isn't it, Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: For me, this time when I did this exploration, I felt the usual increased calmness and silence, while thoughts and so on kept flowing, but an increased sense of Being seeing across time, not only what is arising now, but in all times
Pema Pera: as if the confinement of the now started to loosen up
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Eos Amaterasu: stuff happens, distinctly, exactly as it is
Pema Pera: the now is a temporal perspective, and can be dropped like the spatial perspective
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: yes, Eos, no vagueness, if anything increased clarity
Eos Amaterasu: The less you in the now, the bigger it is
Pema Pera: yes :)
Tarmel Udimo: I will look out for these indicators
Pema Pera: it's related to the no-filter approach, Tarmel, or trying to see your filters exploration, that you proposed in the phenomenology workshop
Tarmel Udimo: nods, so dropping temporal or spacial filters
Pema Pera: and just to be clear, I hope you will also continue your explorations of Being seeing through your eyes -- since that is also one way, and if that feels right, by all means, explore that one further too
Pema Pera: YES, exactly -- perspectival filters
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Pema Pera: metaphorically, the challenge is to drop any "position"
Pema Pera: spatial, idealogical, . . . .
Eos Amaterasu: suspension, gets bigger and bigger
Eos Amaterasu: 9 secs, 90 secs, this life :-)
Pema Pera: :)
Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
Pema Pera: and beyond?
Eos Amaterasu: yes
Eos Amaterasu: I arrived, I'm here, I go....
Pema Pera: and yes, time for me to go too :)
Eos Amaterasu: inside suspension
Pema Pera: getting close to midnight :)
Tarmel Udimo: nods
Tarmel Udimo: and me too
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema and Tarmel
Tarmel Udimo: thanks for the great session Pema
Eos Amaterasu: past midnight here....
Pema Pera: thank you all for a great conversation!
Eos Amaterasu: Thanks, all
Tarmel Udimo: and thanks to you all as well
Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
Eos Amaterasu: By Pila, Widget, Tarmel
Widget Whiteberry: bye!
Widget Whiteberry: thank you
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve -- have you met Anonymous? (you both are architects)
Pila Mulligan: oops
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: she leave?
Pila Mulligan: yep, or crashed
stevenaia Michinaga: I have known her for years
Pila Mulligan: ahh
stevenaia Michinaga: pre SL
Pila Mulligan: rl i suppose
stevenaia Michinaga: no, never met her, used to hang with her on aol, we talk now and then, I intoduced her to SL recently
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: not sure if I ahd dropped her a notecard about this place
Pila Mulligan: this was the first time i've seen her here
stevenaia Michinaga: nods
Pila Mulligan: hello FRank
Frank Odgar: hi
stevenaia Michinaga: corvi is at an art gallery if you wnat to come
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Frank
Frank Odgar: hi
Pila Mulligan: I'm having a very laggy connection now or I would, thanks Steve -- I'd better sign off
Frank Odgar: i dont have anything
stevenaia Michinaga: ok, night Pila
Pila Mulligan: bye
stevenaia Michinaga: bye
stevenaia Michinaga: Frank, we meet here 4 times a day
stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to join is anytime
stevenaia Michinaga: the meeting just ended