2009.04.18 19:00 - Maintaining the Observer?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pema Pera. The comments are by Pema Pera.

    Eos Amaterasu: HI Scathah
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eos:)
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
    Pema Pera: Hi Scathach, Eos!
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Pema!
    Scathach Rhiadra: Pema, is the Hall of appearances in Rieul restricted access?
    Pema Pera: shouldn't be!
    Pema Pera: is it?
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Folks
    Scathach Rhiadra: I was just there and there was those red lines, no access
    Pema Pera: (I have another problem, can't claim the recording log -- can someone else try?
    Pema Pera: hi Tarmel!
    Pema Pera: just left clicking doesn't work anymore (for me)
    Scathach Rhiadra: I can claim it
    Pema Pera: hahaha, for Tarmel it does !?!
    Tarmel Udimo: heheh, did you too Scath?
    Pema Pera: no
    Scathach Rhiadra: no I left it for you:)
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe and i'll give it to Pema:)
    Pema Pera: you just left clicked right?
    Tarmel Udimo: right clicked on mine
    Pema Pera: right? but then it gives you the option to "sit here" etc
    Tarmel Udimo: and touch
    Pema Pera: ah!
    Pema Pera: DIdn't know that worked too
    Pema Pera: so far I have always left clicked (including this afternoon)
    Pema Pera: oh well, no idea why that didn't work now . . .
    Pema Pera: thanks!
    Tarmel Udimo: that's how I learnt if after much trying:)
    One problem solved: right clicking on the autorecorder, then choosing "touch" allows a guardian to claim a log.  Thanks, Tarmel!
    Tarmel Udimo: wow hi widger
    Tarmel Udimo: widget
    Pema Pera: Hi Widget!
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Pema Pera: Have you been here before, widget?
    Tarmel Udimo: have you been here before Widget?
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe double speak
    Pema Pera: hahaha
    Widget Whiteberry: No, Pema, I've just met the Kira people this past 10 days
    Pema Pera: you can see, WE have been here before :)
    Pema Pera: welcome!
    Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Widget Whiteberry: thank you
    Widget Whiteberry: I'm delighted to be included
    Pema Pera: ty!
    Tarmel Udimo: the group has probably been together in various forms and disguises over many lifetimes:)
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    I brought up a recent line from Eos
    Pema Pera: btw, Eos, I enjoyed reading some recent chat logs, and I found a great one-liner by you: "Absolute -> being good -> doing good -> relative"
    Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel, may well be :-)
    Widget Whiteberry: brb, I'll catch up
    Pema Pera: did you just come up with that spontaneously?
    Eos Amaterasu: Cointextually
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: coining it there an then :)
    Eos Amaterasu: Pun was unintended, but that's how they happen!
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: when one is 'being' is one automatically good, being good?
    Pema Pera: perhaps there is no "one" then :-) ?
    Tarmel Udimo: :)
    Widget Whiteberry: back and reading
    Tarmel Udimo: is absolute being always exhibiting good qualities?
    Pema Pera: It is so heard to talk about Being . . . but somehow it seems to go well together with the 9-sec experiment. Such a short nano-mediation only makes sense within a most radical view, I feel
    Widget Whiteberry: how is being absolute or not absolute?
    Pema Pera: normally talking about Being comes at the end of a decade-long or so curriculum of intense meditation
    Pema Pera: and it would be considered confusing, at best, to even bring up the term . . . .
    Pema Pera: Being allows, does not create. Being is beyond the realm of the relative, yet calling it "absolute" is equally misleading. Calling it "good" is also misleading, since Being is beyond all distinctions including good and bad. It's tough!
    Pema Pera: so we "play as Being"
    Pema Pera: rather than analyze being
    Pema Pera: and while playing we listen to what Being may have to say . . . .
    Pema Pera: if that makes any sense :>)
    Pema Pera: does it?
    Widget Whiteberry may be in over her head
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Tarmel Udimo: yes, except being allows, does not create?
    Pema Pera: to create something suggests a creator and a created / creature
    Widget Whiteberry: hmmm, a created something
    Pema Pera: but since nothing "exists" for Being, only appears, "creating" is not quite right
    Tarmel Udimo: ahhh even if it is implied the creation takes place spontaneously
    Widget Whiteberry: Being recognizes?
    Pema Pera: Being remains within the realm of Being, nothing "emanates" or "flows" out of it
    Pema Pera: Being includes all cognition of any type
    Pema Pera: including the appearance of a pair {recognizer, recognized}
    Pema Pera: but Being is byond such distinctions
    Widget Whiteberry: Pema, are you using 'being' as a state of existence?
    Pema Pera: no
    Pema Pera: rather to point beyond all distinctions
    Widget Whiteberry: an entity?
    Pema Pera: including the distinction between existing and non-existing
    Pema Pera: it is not an entity
    Pema Pera: Being IS
    Pema Pera: that's all you can say about it . . . . but you can point to it in different ways
    Tarmel Udimo: an activity
    Pema Pera: and most importantly it can be a resource in your life
    Eos Amaterasu: YOu can take 9 second, 90 second time outs for it
    Pema Pera: in fact, it is the only resource there ever was, is, will be -- it stares us in the face, but we have difficulty seeing its simplicity
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: a bit like the light in a movie projector
    Pema Pera: hard to find while engrossed in a movie
    Pema Pera: not realizing all is light
    It really is hard to talk in a sensable way about Being . . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: in the timeout nothing is happening, everything is happening, awareness is happening
    Eos Amaterasu: but that happens all the time
    Eos Amaterasu: but the timeout helps
    Pema Pera: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: when you "don't want to leave", that is "good", I think
    Eos Amaterasu: like the biblical story of Christ and people on a mountain, and they don't want to leave
    Eos Amaterasu: re Tarmel's qustion about being and good, goodness, if there is no question of leaving, that's "good", I would say
    Eos Amaterasu: full and empty
    Eos Amaterasu: finger painting
    Tarmel Udimo: it was kind of retorical
    Tarmel Udimo: assuming that if we follow through with letting being see and operating from Being, will we as humans act in a 'good' way
    Tarmel Udimo: since we still inhabit a human form
    Eos Amaterasu: if in tune with Being, then I think action can be naturally harmonious
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: there is no guarantee, there is no formula to be "good", but I as Eos said, letting Being be and see can help us be more in tune
    Pema Pera: and that can lead to being "better" in many ways
    Pema Pera: Hi Anonymous!
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Anonymous: Hi
    Tarmel Udimo: hi anonymous
    Anonymous: where is everybody?
    Anonymous: Tarmel therr u r
    Pema Pera: Welcome to our group, Anonymous!
    Anonymous: ty
    Anonymous: Tarmel
    Pema Pera: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?
    Anonymous: rather not please
    Anonymous: but thanks anyhow
    Anonymous: Cobuskova invited me
    Pema Pera: ah, Corvi! In any case, welcome to our group
    Pema Pera: We normally put our conversations on our blog, but I will exclude your name
    We return to the notion of `good'
    Pema Pera: Tarmel, this question of "good" is so tricky . . . .
    Widget Whiteberry: very subjective
    Pema Pera: good as opposed to bad -- and good as in "natural", at ease
    Pema Pera: two very different usages of teh word "good"
    Widget Whiteberry: good as pleasing
    Widget Whiteberry: good as benefiting .... something
    Eos Amaterasu: Being good
    Eos Amaterasu: from which may or may not come doing good
    Widget Whiteberry: good as useful?
    Widget Whiteberry: oh, that would be doing good
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I know and in fact I should not have used the word good, it has so many implications and includes the duality of bad
    Eos Amaterasu: good is not a bad word :-)
    Pema Pera: oh, you can use it, as long as we agree upon what it means
    Pema Pera: hehe, Eos, yes
    Pema Pera: good is good when used in a good way :)
    Tarmel Udimo: I think what I was more really asking is around integrity
    Tarmel Udimo: when seeing as being, if one's personal filter's have not be recognised can being still see clearly?
    Tarmel Udimo: how much does Being override our humaness?
    Pema Pera: Being doesn't "do" anything . . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: You mean our humanness as in tendency to do good or do bad?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Pema Pera: Hi Corvi!
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Corvu
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello corvi
    Eos Amaterasu: I think when we lose touch with Being we try harder, to do good
    Eos Amaterasu: or we end up doing "bad"
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi all
    Eos Amaterasu: playing as Being allows.....
    Eos Amaterasu: Hi Covu
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Corey
    Pema Pera: With respect to "[19:37] Tarmel Udimo: when seeing as being, if one's personal filter's have not be recognised can being still see clearly?" -- the idea is to really let Being see -- to step out of the way, rather than to pretend-play that I am Being as a kind of actor -- if that makes any sense?
    Pema Pera: asking Being to show what Being seeing can mean
    Tarmel Udimo: yes I understand
    Widget Whiteberry: can Being be asked anything?
    Pema Pera: it goes against anything we've ever learned . . . .
    Pema Pera: yes and no Widget :)
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Tarmel brings up an email she sent me; it turned out that I had not yet read it.
    Tarmel Udimo: Did you read my response to your email Pema?
    Pema Pera: we can learn to listen, though, in some sense
    Pema Pera: when, Tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: to the one about PaB?
    Pema Pera: which one about PaB?
    Tarmel Udimo: It will perhaps explain why I am asking these questions
    Eos Amaterasu: guiding in a museum?
    Tarmel Udimo: to the google group
    Tarmel Udimo: yes
    Pema Pera: sorry, so many emails -- when roughtly, and what Subject line or content?
    Pema Pera: ah, found it ! -- sorry, no, haven't read that one yet
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Tarmel Udimo: no worries
    Tarmel Udimo: anyway I have domnated the session enough:)
    Tarmel Udimo: its somebody's else turn
    Pema Pera: (reading it now)
    Pema Pera: thank you, Tarmel, that's a great email -- sorry I hadn't caught that one yet!
    Pema Pera: Glad to see that it really helped with your work
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: If I can make one suggestion:
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
    Widget Whiteberry: can it be shared here?
    Tarmel Udimo: of course!
    Pema Pera: perhaps instead of letting Being look through your eyes in some way, how about letting Being see without any reference point at all
    Pema Pera: letting Being see all and everything, simultaneously, inner and outer, real and imagined -- would that make any sense?
    Tarmel Udimo: yes that could be next
    Pema Pera: it would be nice to compare those two approaches
    Pema Pera: Tarmel, shall I copy the text to Widget in IM?
    Eos Amaterasu: "your eyes looked thru your mother's face"
    Tarmel Udimo: sure no worries pema
    Tarmel Udimo: yes Eos
    Widget Whiteberry: I asked because, if you were going to respond to Tarmel
    Widget Whiteberry: it might be useful if the rest of us had context for your remarks
    Tarmel Udimo: one is always maintaining the observer
    Tarmel Udimo: I think its important
    Pema Pera: Widget, everyone else has already gotten the email
    Tarmel Udimo: its a way of seeing the path that is unfolding
    Widget Whiteberry: ah, ok
    Pema Pera: but I'll copy it now for you
    Widget Whiteberry: ty
    Tarmel clarified more of what had happened.
    Tarmel Udimo: the thing is I didn't do anything. I didn't say to being look through my eyes like that, its just what happened and I observed it
    Pema Pera: yes, and that was clearly a great thing to let happen, judging from your description!
    Pema Pera: and there are many other great things that we can let happen as well
    Tarmel Udimo: yes in fact what i didn't mention was that time was suspended
    Pema Pera: we normally would think "one is always maintaining the observer" -- but that may not be true
    Tarmel Udimo: one min my watch said 1:10, the next it was 1:45
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: or at least we might be able to drop the "one" the "self" and the notion of "observer" altogether
    Pema Pera: yes, time experience can totally change . . . .
    and Widget gave a similar description
    Widget Whiteberry: that was helpful ... I've had that experience
    Tarmel Udimo: the one, the self easy to drop, observer not so easy:)
    Pema Pera: can you tell us about that, Widget, how that felt?
    Widget Whiteberry: it felt the Tarmel described
    Pema Pera: indeed, Tarmel, impossible to drop, but perhaps we can sidestep :-)
    Widget Whiteberry: deep even breathing
    Widget Whiteberry: less of a sense of self
    Widget Whiteberry: more awareness of not self
    Widget Whiteberry: very* patient
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Pema Pera: Hi Pila!
    Widget Whiteberry: alert but not tense
    Tarmel Udimo: > at sidestep
    Pila Mulligan: hi
    Pema Pera: Thank you, WIdget, yes, very recognizable
    Widget Whiteberry: spine straightened
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Tarmel Udimo: hey so its all true:)
    Pila Mulligan: oops
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks Widget:)
    Tarmel Udimo: hi Pila
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
    Pema Pera: dropping is such a tricky term -- letting be may be better, since there is no force involved, no reaching, no trying to change a state, etc
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Anonymous: greetings Pila
    Anonymous: and everyone else too
    Pema Pera: :)
    Anonymous: ty for having me in your group
    Pema Pera: you're welcome Anonymous!
    Pema Pera: If I can come back to your email, Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: yes?
    Pema Pera: I think it is fascinating to describe how you felt, how you saw and were, and especially that some of all that was recurrent
    Widget Whiteberry nods
    Pema Pera: and I would love to hear from others, now or later, in how far their experiences overlapped or were similar
    Corvuscorva Nightfire waves as she leaves the group.
    Anonymous: nn
    Pila Mulligan: bye Corvi
    Tarmel Udimo: bye corey
    Pema Pera: and at the same time it is also very interesting to see whether such experiences can be dropped, so to speak, hard to find the right words, transcended sounds too stiff, to make room for different ones, even more open in some way
    Pema Pera: Bye Corvi!
    Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye all
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Corvi
    Tarmel Udimo: yes, execept without the observer we won't be able to tell about them:)
    Pema Pera: you won't be
    Pema Pera: Being will :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: because there is no one to tell anything
    Pema Pera: we'll see about that
    Pema Pera: let's try :-)
    Pema Pera: let's not start with conclusions
    Tarmel Udimo: hummm okay we'll see:)
    Pema Pera: seriously, I'd love to hear what happens if you try to let Being see without any vantage point
    Pema Pera: and independent of your body or even your mind
    Tarmel Udimo: that kind of sounds like a dare there Pema :)
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    Pema Pera: I trust ya
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Anonymous: you will be completely unopinionated
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: grins
    Tarmel Udimo: okay I'll jumo into the abyss and report back, I think Scath said she was up for coming too:)
    Tarmel Udimo: didin't you Scath:)
    Tarmel Udimo: *jump
    Scathach Rhiadra: !?!
    Pema Pera: looking forward to it, Tarmel !
    Pema Pera: shall we give Scathach a little push perhaps?
    Tarmel Udimo: any other takers?
    Tarmel Udimo: yep
    Tarmel's question triggered the idea to start the exploration right away.
    Pema Pera: how about doing it right now, here?
    Pema Pera: for just a couple minutes, to get our toes wet?
    Pema Pera: just to get a feel?
    Tarmel Udimo: I'm game...
    Pema Pera: perhaps I could describe it briefly, to summarize?
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: So we will let Being see, but without letting Being look out of our eyes, or letting Being look from any point in space. In fact, letting Being see applies to any phenomenon, anything that appears in any way, whether a material object or a thought or feeling or memory of fantasy, anything at all
    Pema Pera: let's do that for two minutes, starting now, and then compare notes, if we feel like it
    Pema Pera: Here we go :-)
    Pema Pera: That was two minutes -- thank you!
    Pema Pera: Would anyone like to say a few words about what happened for them?
    For most of the rest of the meeting, we present our reports about this exploration.  As always, a delightful variety.
    Anonymous: saw a beach and waves
    Anonymous: very peaceful
    Pema Pera: nice!
    Widget Whiteberry: I just drifted off
    Widget Whiteberry: forgot to keep my eyes open
    Widget Whiteberry: ☆smiles☆
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: That's fine too, Widget, we're just exploring
    Pema Pera: and eyes open and closed are both interesting to play with
    Tarmel Udimo: back, stepped outside
    Pema Pera: yes, Tarmel?
    Tarmel Udimo: still processing
    Pema Pera: take your time!
    Eos Amaterasu: My own stuff kept happening, but with bits of sense of being lifted up by a swelling, welling up
    Tarmel Udimo: sorry have nothing to say right now
    Pema Pera: that's perfectly fine, Tarmel!
    Tarmel Udimo: except feel a bit strange
    Pema Pera: that's normal, as Stim would say :-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: and I just became very aware that it is after 4 am here, and how tired I am..
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehe
    Scathach Rhiadra: have to go, Namasté
    Pema Pera: radically changing perspectives, and specially when begining to drop them, can be rather disorienting at first
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scathach
    Tarmel Udimo: bye Scath
    Pema Pera: bye Schathach!
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: and it is good to take it easy
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: go slow, ease into it
    Pila Mulligan: I thought of reading a book and how immersed you can become in a world and events of the author's creation, this book being the video screen showing second life
    Pema Pera: anything remotely related to forcing or reaching or denying or suppressing leads away from Being . . . .
    Pema Pera: yes, it's a curious story we're weaving here together, isn't it, Pila :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pema Pera: For me, this time when I did this exploration, I felt the usual increased calmness and silence, while thoughts and so on kept flowing, but an increased sense of Being seeing across time, not only what is arising now, but in all times
    Pema Pera: as if the confinement of the now started to loosen up
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Eos Amaterasu: stuff happens, distinctly, exactly as it is
    Pema Pera: the now is a temporal perspective, and can be dropped like the spatial perspective
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: yes, Eos, no vagueness, if anything increased clarity
    Eos Amaterasu: The less you in the now, the bigger it is
    Pema Pera: yes :)
    Tarmel Udimo: I will look out for these indicators
    Pema Pera: it's related to the no-filter approach, Tarmel, or trying to see your filters exploration, that you proposed in the phenomenology workshop
    Tarmel Udimo: nods, so dropping temporal or spacial filters
    Pema Pera: and just to be clear, I hope you will also continue your explorations of Being seeing through your eyes -- since that is also one way, and if that feels right, by all means, explore that one further too
    Pema Pera: YES, exactly -- perspectival filters
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Pema Pera: metaphorically, the challenge is to drop any "position"
    Pema Pera: spatial, idealogical, . . . .
    Eos Amaterasu: suspension, gets bigger and bigger
    Eos Amaterasu: 9 secs, 90 secs, this life :-)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Tarmel Udimo: hehehehe
    Pema Pera: and beyond?
    Eos Amaterasu: yes
    Eos Amaterasu: I arrived, I'm here, I go....
    Pema Pera: and yes, time for me to go too :)
    Eos Amaterasu: inside suspension
    Pema Pera: getting close to midnight :)
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Tarmel Udimo: and me too
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema and Tarmel
    Tarmel Udimo: thanks for the great session Pema
    Eos Amaterasu: past midnight here....
    Pema Pera: thank you all for a great conversation!
    Eos Amaterasu: Thanks, all
    Tarmel Udimo: and thanks to you all as well
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eos
    Eos Amaterasu: By Pila, Widget, Tarmel
    Widget Whiteberry: bye!
    Widget Whiteberry: thank you
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve -- have you met Anonymous? (you both are architects)
    Pila Mulligan: oops
    stevenaia Michinaga: yes
    stevenaia Michinaga: she leave?
    Pila Mulligan: yep, or crashed
    stevenaia Michinaga: I have known her for years
    Pila Mulligan: ahh
    stevenaia Michinaga: pre SL
    Pila Mulligan: rl i suppose
    stevenaia Michinaga: no, never met her, used to hang with her on aol, we talk now and then, I intoduced her to SL recently
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: not sure if I ahd dropped her a notecard about this place
    Pila Mulligan: this was the first time i've seen her here
    stevenaia Michinaga: nods
    Pila Mulligan: hello FRank
    Frank Odgar: hi
    stevenaia Michinaga: corvi is at an art gallery if you wnat to come
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi Frank
    Frank Odgar: hi
    Pila Mulligan: I'm having a very laggy connection now or I would, thanks Steve -- I'd better sign off
    Frank Odgar: i dont have anything
    stevenaia Michinaga: ok, night Pila
    Pila Mulligan: bye
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye
    stevenaia Michinaga: Frank, we meet here 4 times a day
    stevenaia Michinaga: feel free to join is anytime
    stevenaia Michinaga: the meeting just ended
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