2009.04.19 01:00 - 'Need to be needed' (with good coffee)

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Susi Alcott. The comments are by Susi Alcott.

    Moon's RL took him to be offline and I had promised to back up him.

    Fael and Wol came, and at first we had very freshing 'coffee chat' *

    Then the topic 'need to be needed' rose to my mind. Then Qt came too and there was few points of view about it, and thankfully Fael made many questions to be clear of my meaning, as sure that topic is difficult too.

    For people's thoughts I got more views to certain thing that happened in my RL, so I want to thank all for that too.

    The text has not been manipulated.

    Feel free to add comments as you like.

    Hoping you can enjoy reading the log.

    Susi Alcott

    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: Hi Fael
    Fael Illyar: Hi Susi :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: Hi Wol :)
    Wol Euler: hello susi, fael
    Susi Alcott: Hi Wol
    Fael Illyar: just a moment, going to finish my breakfast :)
    Wol Euler: :)
    Wol Euler: and I to wash my face and get a cup of coffee :)
    Wol Euler: if only RL meetings were like this!
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Susi Alcott: only one cup of coffee ?
    Wol Euler: *first* cup of coffee
    Fael Illyar: ok, breakfast ready, time to eat it :)
    Susi Alcott: :)
    Fael Illyar: *first* slurp of tea this morning :)
    Susi Alcott: (almost guessed your reply Wol :))
    Wol Euler: :)
    Susi Alcott: (having a coffee pot beside me)
    Fael Illyar is almost out of coffee.
    Wol Euler: yeah, me too. I was clearly half-alseep when I went shopping yesterday. Had to go back for milk and _still_ forgot coffee beans
    Susi Alcott: I got now a topic to my mind
    Fael Illyar: They run out so slow that you forget them :
    Fael Illyar: :)
    Susi Alcott: ah...you can still buy beans ?
    Fael Illyar ears perk up and eyes start gleaming 'Topic?'
    Wol Euler: oh yes. There's a local roastery near me, I try to support local businesses whenever possible
    Susi Alcott: ah; here in Finland one needs to go to very special shop to get beans...
    Susi Alcott: if it's at all possible anymore
    Susi Alcott: but...well...yes
    Susi Alcott: rose to my mind 'need to be needed'
    Fael Illyar: that's a tough one...
    Wol Euler: hmmmm
    Wol Euler: as in "I identify as being a helper"?
    Susi Alcott: hm
    Susi Alcott: well...donno that...as it's not the need of the helper
    Susi Alcott: that's only natural human need
    Fael Illyar: I'd think the natural need is 'need to be accepted'...
    Susi Alcott: as...of the helper helps based on one's own need to be needed
    Susi Alcott: that mixes things up
    Wol Euler: true, but it is also very commmon...
    Susi Alcott: and that happenes a lot
    Susi Alcott: yes; but should never
    Wol Euler: well; murder and rape and child abuse should never happen either...
    Susi Alcott: as true helping is not based on the helpers own needs
    Fael Illyar: Hi Qt :)
    Wol Euler: hello qt
    Susi Alcott: Hi Qt
    Susi Alcott: well; you Wol named one way how the true helpers are treated :)
    Susi Alcott: much
    Susi Alcott: but...that's an other thing
    Susi Alcott: but...ment that need just as the common need to all of the people
    Susi Alcott: helper or not
    Wol Euler: true; an overly extreme example. I must be in a contentious mood this morning
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: but when you say 'need to be needed' do you really mean needing the situation where someone else really _needs_ you because they're feeling bad?
    Susi Alcott: and yes; what comes to helper, who surely has that need too, but if one let that need to lead, he stoppes to be any true helper then and get's no genuin resolt...not that the resolt would be based only what helper does or not
    Fael Illyar: or do you simply mean it like that you simply need to have something you can do to help someone?
    Wol Euler: I think you are being overly contentious now :) At least I hope you are
    Fael Illyar: me?
    Wol Euler: Susi
    Susi Alcott: well; just ment that need....
    Susi Alcott: how urgent things there's involved for that need
    Wol Euler: if someone who helps because they identify as being somebody who is helpful is unable to be of real assistance, then I for one am wasting a lot of my time and energy
    Fael Illyar is still trying to understand what it is you want to talk about exactly.
    Wol Euler: yes, perhaps I am jumping off too fast. Susi?
    Susi Alcott: understand you words Wol
    Susi Alcott: but yes; didn't mean to 'look at' that need as the 'oursider'
    Susi Alcott: just that need itself to all of the people
    Susi Alcott: as that do exist
    Susi Alcott: imo
    Susi Alcott: hm
    Susi Alcott: well...maybe this would clear you Fael;
    Fael Illyar: I believe the need exists as 'need to be needed' instead of 'need to be accepted' because the society teaches us that we need to be needed to be accepted.
    Susi Alcott: 'not to be needed' is very bad thing to human being
    Wol Euler: oh yes.
    Susi Alcott: got it Fael now ?
    Fael Illyar: yes
    Wol Euler: ha, how funny that expressing it in the negative makes your meaning immediately obviuos!
    Susi Alcott: ...ah...
    Susi Alcott: ...ok...
    Susi Alcott: well...
    Susi Alcott: rose my mind this;
    Susi Alcott: many times I love when somebody lies to me
    Susi Alcott: cuz then it's so clear to see the truth
    Susi Alcott: but when there's mix of lie and truth
    Susi Alcott: that takes time to clear it up
    Susi Alcott: so...I truely understand you words and that confirmed me much...just that I'm not used to say things that way....
    Susi Alcott: but yes; that need
    Susi Alcott: well..maybe we take that the same way all here...so not so much to talk aobut :)
    Fael Illyar: although... one thing that rubs me off the wrong way is attaching need the way as to be needed. I can see how I can need something but ... needing to be needed feels like it's attached the wrong way.
    Susi Alcott: hm
    Susi Alcott: well...
    Susi Alcott: may I say an example ?
    Fael Illyar: of course :)
    Qt Core: need to be needed... desire of power over others ? (i'm thinking especially about workplaces scenarios)
    Fael Illyar: I can see 'need to be needed' easily causing someone to make sure they are needed. That'd be what you mean Qt?
    Susi Alcott: well Qt; that's one example of how that need can grow up to be not good anymore; then it can create that will
    Wol Euler: yes, helping can be bad if it is used to create dependency.
    Susi Alcott: but...would like to ask you Fael to 'get' the example step by step
    Qt Core: yes, to both of you, more specifically i'm thinking about people not giving around their knowledge so everybody has to go to them
    Susi Alcott: that too; terrible
    Wol Euler: yes, QT, that is clearly a power play
    Wol Euler: (or a sign of being afraid to lose their job, which is itself a sign of bad management!)
    Susi Alcott: and even to say that 'do this way and you may come to me' and give the 'pic' that *I know all, and nobody else does'
    Susi Alcott: well...that 'example'
    Susi Alcott: think Fael the situation that you are offered to do something
    Susi Alcott: and you wouldn't do that cuz of tireness
    Susi Alcott: but you promise to do that cuz you wanna help
    Susi Alcott: and you know that you get strength from that you know that you are needed
    Susi Alcott: got it ?
    Susi Alcott: and then you just go and do what you promised
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I can understand that.
    Qt Core: i see that even more if there is no one specific person needing you but a group
    Susi Alcott: ah
    Susi Alcott: sure that can be more too...but...well...to me; one person's need is 'as'
    Qt Core: but that is more a need to have an ideal more than need to be needed
    Susi Alcott: but...yes surely things are depended of many things
    Susi Alcott: hm
    Susi Alcott: to have more...
    Susi Alcott: (thinking all the groups he's been working for)
    Susi Alcott: (specially the one in which (during 10 years) people told him to have much, and never 'got it')
    Susi Alcott: ah...sry...my view to 'have' was included with the word 'hold' or 'own'
    Susi Alcott: yes Qt; you are very right
    Susi Alcott: that is having; treasure so worthy that cannot compare with money; not even millions
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I can see being needed by others, especially many others giving you a sense of security.
    Susi Alcott: but...well ...then there's so much; trust and so...
    Susi Alcott: but...well..still I take that it's not based on the need to be needed that it can truely be true; that all good
    Qt Core: so, be needed by someone is a possible answer to the big question: why we are here ?
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Susi Alcott: just heared about a mom who was as the 'vegetable' for long long time
    Susi Alcott: cuz her son couldn't 'let her to go'
    Susi Alcott: sure that's not the only reason for somebody to stay here still even dont much exist here with mind
    Susi Alcott: but...one example how the need is no such need that would hurt other people, but if oneself
    Susi Alcott: and yes; that can also be 'weapon' to others to hurt one whos' got that need not in balance with love
    Susi Alcott: as there's many devine needs exept need to love
    Susi Alcott: and the need to be needed is one of them needs that specially ---imo---should be 'ruled over' with love
    Susi Alcott: but...there is one such good point that people could 'use'
    Fael Illyar is wondering if you see any difference between being accepted and being needed...
    Susi Alcott: as so many people dont ask help very easily and to many people that's even 'must never'
    Wol Euler nods
    Susi Alcott: ah yes Fael; there's huge difference to me
    Susi Alcott: as that is that if people would see that they could give much to somebody if they would ask help
    Fael Illyar: to not ask for help is to have a rule for oneself to "not need"
    Susi Alcott: may I tell a story of that ?
    Wol Euler: please do
    Susi Alcott: as I lived as the neighbour to such young ppls heliping group
    Susi Alcott: and I had not time to do all I had need to do those days at home
    Susi Alcott: and I asked one couple to help me
    Susi Alcott: I had not much money to pay them, but I did my best that the needed doing was as easy to them as possible and that they'de have fun for that too
    Wol Euler smiles
    Susi Alcott: later on the 'boss'/nurse/caretaker brought the question that what had I done cuz those boy and girl had changed completely
    Susi Alcott: so; they got almost nothing even they worked the whole day
    Susi Alcott: ...imo...
    Susi Alcott: but when I was aksed what I did, I understood and got release that I didn't give them much
    Wol Euler: no, clearly they got much more than nothing :) They got the chance to do something real and worthwhile, which someone trusted them to do.
    Wol Euler: perhaps for the first time in years...
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Susi Alcott: or in whole of there life
    Fael Illyar: yes, someone relied on them.
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Susi Alcott: so; as they was not alone at my home that day, so I take that it was not so much of trust...but truley that they felt themselves to be needed
    Fael Illyar: and cared for
    Susi Alcott: hm
    Susi Alcott: how ?
    Susi Alcott: (had not time to them either)
    Fael Illyar: that's what making sure they can have fun and know how to do their job.
    Wol Euler: no, that is still trusting, Susi. You trusted that they could do the job.
    Fael Illyar: that's caring for them
    Wol Euler: and yes to Fael
    Susi Alcott: well...they didn't know what I had done for that....that it'll be easy...
    Susi Alcott: hm
    Fael Illyar: no-one perhaps told them but ... do you really think that kind of thing is not felt?
    Wol Euler: it seems to be very deeply socialized in us, to want to belong to a group and to do things to help that group to thrive
    Susi Alcott: ...thinking again...maybe they did....
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Wol Euler: I'm sure they did feel it.
    Susi Alcott: that is how I see the healthly human being
    Wol Euler: perhaps you were the first person who ever let them join his group?
    Susi Alcott: ok...thank you both; never thought that way before
    Fael Illyar: perhaps could even go as far as to say that they felt welcome.
    Susi Alcott: well..in fact...they were members of the group of bad things
    Fael Illyar: bad things?
    Susi Alcott: yea
    Susi Alcott: rubberies and drugs and so
    Susi Alcott: as that group next to my door was the helping group for such young poeple
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I can see how it could really be the first time in a long time that they've felt welcome.
    Susi Alcott: but I had seen them few times....thought them to be different...
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Wol Euler nods
    Susi Alcott: that just was so obvious to me that didn't notice that
    Susi Alcott: as I was a little embarresed to ask there help...but I 'had must'
    Susi Alcott: and yes; I trusted them
    Susi Alcott: loved them
    Susi Alcott: was sad for them too
    Qt Core: rl calling again ;-) bye
    Fael Illyar: See you later Qt :)
    Susi Alcott: but...yes; ment to give an example how all can give to people much also asking hlep
    Susi Alcott: see you Qt
    Wol Euler: bye qt, take care
    Susi Alcott: have nice time
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I've usually received much when I've been asked to help. That is, when I have been willing to receive.
    Wol Euler: :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fael Illyar: so, please, don't feel ashamed of needing help :)
    Susi Alcott: ah; learned my lessons of that too :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Susi Alcott: just having the need to check all possible at first myself :)
    Wol Euler: I shall have to move on. Thank you, Susi, that was a very good discussion. Bye for now!
    Fael Illyar: See you later Wol :)
    Wol Euler: enjoy your Sundays
    Susi Alcott: thank You Wol
    Fael Illyar: Have a nice Sunday Wol :)
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_

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