2009.04.19 07:00 - Attributes and Allah

The Guardian for this meeting was Adams Rubble. The comments are by Adams Rubble.

With apologies to the attendees, Wol, Sophia and Scathach, I have removed the first half hour in which we said hello, talked about Tibetan and Arabic characters not showing up in  some viewers, problems seeing the 90 second stop, and restricted areas in the middle of sims blocking our free access to places on the other side. There was nothing secret or wrong with what was said; it just seemed unimportant to the discussion that followed.

I started things off but Sophia and Pema provided the content:

Adams Rubble: I have a question
Adams Rubble: Sophia, was it you who mentioned "obedient love" a few weeks ago?
sophia Placebo: yes Adams , i guess
Adams Rubble: It was the first I had heard of it and I have been wondering about it
Adams Rubble: It would seem to put an awful lot of responsibility on the recipient

90 second stop here

Adams Rubble: It worked that time..maybe it was the love
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Adams Rubble: am I misunderstanding Sophia?
sophia Placebo: am not sure cuz the word obey in English seems to carry some negative feelings with it
Adams Rubble: ah
sophia Placebo: if we to use it in negatve way we add the word blind , blind obeidiance is negative or very sacred
Wol Euler: hello pema
Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
sophia Placebo: hi pema
Pema Pera: Hi Wol, Adams, Sophia, Scathach!
Adams Rubble: I asked Sophia about obedient love and she is explaining to us
sophia Placebo: though even in sacred or holy places the blind obediance is not all favoured
Adams Rubble: would that have to do with intention?
sophia Placebo: what do you mean adams?
Adams Rubble: I was fishing a bit; I was wondering why it would not always be favored in a holy place
Adams Rubble: but is it degree...leaving out the "blind"
sophia Placebo: hmm , well shahada ie when poeple say that there is only one God , the word shahada means witnissing
sophia Placebo: that mean you shoul witness that there is only one God , and by doing that and obeing Allah you come from darkness to lightness
sophia Placebo: and the more you know about yourself and about universe the more you are closer to allah and knowing him
sophia Placebo: meditiating is highly recommened , it said one hour of meditiating is better than one thousand year of worshipping
sophia Placebo: so as you accept islam , you accept all it come with - blindly maybe- but it is better to do it while you are knowlgable and no on dout of what you belive in
sophia Placebo: part of that i guess cuz we belive that allah is all just , mercifull , all knowing and wise
sophia Placebo: thats about it :)
Adams Rubble: thank you Sophia. I was thinking abit of Allah Watching
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: Thank you, Sophia, sorry that I missed the first part of what you said.
sophia Placebo: yes , as a muslim you have many watchers , yourself as starter , your angle on your right shoulder that record good deeds and the angel on the lef shoulder that records the bad deeds and above all allah that know you better than yourself and know what you are thinking about
Adams Rubble nods
Pema Pera: and Allah is without attributes, as you mentioned a few days ago
sophia Placebo: yes
Pema Pera: I think that is what makes a kind of "blind" faith possible
Pema Pera: to have blind faith in attributes would be wrong, I think
sophia Placebo: wait , im translating in my mind
Pema Pera: please take your time!
Adams Rubble: Pema you missed just two lines:
Adams Rubble: sophia Placebo: am not sure cuz the word obey in English seems to carry some negative feelings with it [7:33] Adams Rubble: ah [7:33] Pema Pera is Online [7:34] sophia Placebo: if we to use it in negatve way we add the word blind , blind obeidiance is negative or very sacred
Adams Rubble: we were late getting started
Wol Euler: I'll have to find that log and read what "without attributes" meant.
sophia Placebo: hmm , pema when did i say that ?sorry i translated attribute wrongly
Pema Pera: On April 15, 1 am, you wrote:
Pema Pera: sophia Placebo: he foremost in religion is the acknowledgement of Him, the perfection of acknowledging Him is to testify Him, the perfection of testifying Him is to believe in His Oneness, the perfection of believing in His Oneness is to regard Him Pure, and the perfection of His purity is to deny Him attributes, because every attribute is a proof that it is different from that to which it is attributed and everything to which something is attributed is different from the attribute.
Pema Pera: (I was not there, then, but read the transcript later)
Wol Euler: hmmmmmmmm. thank you, I'll have to think about that for a while
Pema Pera: perhaps instead of "blind" a better word would be "unconditional"
Pema Pera: atributes would imply conditions . . . .
Wol Euler: what is the role of the "99 most beautiful names of Allah" then? I thought that they were almost a kind of prayer.
Pema Pera: names are not attributes
Pema Pera: names are celebratory pointers
sophia Placebo: ok , reread it in arabic , this is about allah being one and whole without parts
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: parts would prevent "unconditional"
Pema Pera: ultimate devotion is devotion to the ultimate . . . I happen to like the word "Being", but that is just a word
sophia Placebo: we use blind to mean unconditional :) languages , like blind love when we see one deeply in love and would do crazy things
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: yes, and one can be crazy for Allah, right?
Pema Pera: like Sufi mystics, I mean
Pema Pera: in a positive way
sophia Placebo: you can pray to allah with all those names wol , like always we start with the most mercifull
Wol Euler: *nods
Pema Pera: perhaps we can read "the most ...." as "limitless" -- another way of saying no attributes, since those would limit
Pema Pera: "most merciful" -- no limits to mercy
sophia Placebo: crazy for allah! not sure , never use that sentence
sophia Placebo: yes pema , 2 types of merci one that is for all cratures in this universe , one that is special for those whom he love
Pema Pera: the word "crazy" is what we use for what falls outside the normal way of reasoning and thinking -- and that can be positive or negative; in a positive way it can be a letting go of the limitations of normal thinking -- like the Sufi poets
Adams Rubble: Thank you Sophia. It is so helpful to see the different ways we can use words to try to describe our experience
Pema Pera: yes, thank you!
sophia Placebo: yvw:)
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go, Namasté:)
sophia Placebo: bye scath
Wol Euler: bye scth, take care
Adams Rubble: bye Scath :)
Pema Pera: bye Scathach!
sophia Placebo: pema , mind is prophet but with much limitation
sophia Placebo: we do belive in 2 worlds in regard to knowladge , witnissing world and occult world
sophia Placebo: and allah being all knowing both worlds , we belive in him and his book even if we cant totally reason it
Pema Pera: to allow ourselves to be known by the All-knowing is one of the most radical and most effective forms of spiritual practice
sophia Placebo: :)
Pema Pera: and I think Sufis are wonderful examples of that kind of practice
Pema Pera: I always feel deeply inspired when I read Sufi poets and stories
Adams Rubble: and one which can connect the various traditions :)
Pema Pera: yes, devotion of that kind can cut through all divides
Pema Pera: devotion that goes beyond attributes
Adams Rubble: I am beginning to understand how the attributes mislead and divide us
Pema Pera: we all tend to make the mistake to aim our devotion at an *idea* of what God or Allah or Being or Emptiness could be . . . that is our limitation, and that is were devotion can get derailed
Wol Euler nods thoughtfully
Pema Pera: if we really open up for Allah, and let Him tell us how He wants to be served, that is enough, it seems
Pema Pera: or for Being, or for God, or for the Tau
Pema Pera: but the danger is that we tend to let our limited mind come in between . . . .
Pema Pera: projecting our own attributes on He who has no attributes
Adams Rubble: What we think are our attributes maybe
Pema Pera: our own ideas of attributes, yes
Adams Rubble: mine seem to keep changing :)

Indeed I was having my own litle insight which I blogged a bit as soon as the session was over. Culture and society also applies "attributes" to groups: religious traditions, gender, age, nationality, occupations, etc. We put on those attributes by fiting into one of the groups. But the attributes are not real. An example of that is how gender is seen differently in some cultures. What may be a male trait in one culture may be a female trait in another culture.

Pema Pera: Sophia, can I go back to what you said earlier:
Pema Pera: [7:39] sophia Placebo: that mean you should witness that there is only one God , and by doing that and obeing Allah you come from darkness to lightness [7:40] sophia Placebo: and the more you know about yourself and about universe the more you are closer to allah and knowing him [7:41] sophia Placebo: meditiating is highly recommened , it said one hour of meditiating is better than one thousand year of worshipping
Pema Pera: can you say more about what kind of meditating is recommended?
Pema Pera: is it related to "witnessng that there is only one God"?
sophia Placebo: hmm , not specific form like tai chi or something , just to sit thoughtfully thinking of how we are created and who this universe is created and knowing yourself better
Pema Pera: yes, that can be very direct
Pema Pera: are there any suggestions given, for how to do that? Or just ingeneral, to study and read and learn?
sophia Placebo: general , you can go in any way you like
sophia Placebo: i have to leave , bye for now :)
Pema Pera: Thank you again, Sophia! I always very much enjoy these conversations, and learning about different perspectives that I am not very familiar with
Adams Rubble: bye Sophia and thanks again :)
sophia Placebo: hope i wasnt too talkative
Pema Pera: on the contrary!!
sophia Placebo: yvw
Adams Rubble: no way Sophia :)
Pema Pera: I'm very glad to listen to you
Pema Pera: and I hope you will talk more soon :-)
Pema Pera: I'll have to be on my way too
Wol Euler: ah, too slow
Pema Pera: sorry to drop in so late :)
Adams Rubble: bye Pema :)
Wol Euler: bye pema, see you later.
Pema Pera: bfn
Wol Euler: I should go too, itS dinnertime and I have not yet had lunch.
Wol Euler: catch you later, Adams :)
Adams Rubble: yes Wol, thanks for coming :)
Wol Euler: bye for now.
Adams Rubble: bye :)