2009.04.19 13:00 - Of time and dreams

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

    This session became a theme session, beginning with Time and Dreams but as the discussion demonstrates, it became more about dreams and meaning, dreams and reality.  The degree of interest and variation of experience and expression suggested that this topic, or group of topics warranted at least an additional discussion time; so this theme cluster will be discussed next week as well.  For now, I leave the chatlog as recorded and will return as I have time for editing or further comment. 


    Riddle Sideways: Hi Maxine
    Maxine Walden: hi, Riddle, liked your little entry dancd
    Maxine Walden: dance
    Riddle Sideways: was trying to stop dancing
    Riddle Sideways: was at the art talk / gallery
    Maxine Walden: oh, got the wrong perspective...oh, how was the art talk, sorry I could not make it
    Riddle Sideways: hmmm orange or yellow level has a dance in the green grass place
    Riddle Sideways: I was doing the rudest of dances
    Riddle Sideways: could not stop
    Maxine Walden: ah...captured by the dance?
    Riddle Sideways: many times the dance takes us over
    Maxine Walden: yes, sometimes we are just overtaken by things...
    Riddle Sideways: hi Pila
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pial
    Maxine Walden: Pila
    Pila Mulligan: hi Maxine and Riddle
    Maxine Walden: Riddle, what is the 'this' in your bubble?
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wester
    Maxine Walden: hi, Wester
    Wester Kiranov: hi all
    Riddle Sideways: I am "this" riddle
    Maxine Walden: oh, thanks...
    Riddle Sideways: sorry, I is simply more descriptive of what I am currently
    Riddle Sideways: that still did not make sence
    Riddle Sideways: but mostly I don't either
    Maxine Walden: np, Riddle...
    Riddle Sideways: At one point I studied japanese carpentry
    Riddle Sideways: and building
    Pila Mulligan: elegant skills
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    Riddle Sideways: there is usually some piece not finished
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Riddle Sideways: it is left to the observer
    Riddle Sideways: to finish
    Maxine Walden: that is an elegant statement
    Pila Mulligan: I've heard something similar of the Zen Garden
    Riddle Sideways: Riddle, is a work in progress
    Riddle Sideways: that you may finish if you wish
    Maxine Walden: perhaps we all are works in progress...
    Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
    Maxine Walden: and Wol, hi there
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine, Pila, everyone
    Wester Kiranov: hi wol, eliza
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol and Fonz
    Wol Euler: hello wester, maxine, pila
    Maxine Walden: Fefonz, hi
    Wol Euler: hello fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: Hello wekend Pabers
    Wester Kiranov: hi fef
    Riddle Sideways: hard to keep up, so Hi Everybody
    Maxine Walden: Eliza and I spoke earlier the week about making this session a theme session, regarding Time and/in Dreams...is that of interest ?
    Pila Mulligan: yes!
    Wol Euler nods
    Fefonz Quan: sure
    Wester Kiranov: yes
    Eliza Madrigal: Bertrum should be here today...had been his idea orginally
    Maxine Walden: yes, thanks, Eliza, I was wondering if he would be coming
    Eliza Madrigal: He said that he would...of course things come up :)
    Riddle Sideways: can you explain the "and/in" ?
    Eliza Madrigal: Either way..interesting topic!
    Maxine Walden: maybe we can gather some thoughts ...
    Pila Mulligan: I hope we can address the topic of prescient dreams
    Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
    Wol Euler: hello steve
    Maxine Walden: 'and/in' merely to suggest the links of Time and Dreams as well as Time in Dreams...
    Maxine Walden: hi, Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: ...smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Steven, Sophia
    Riddle Sideways: ok
    Maxine Walden: hi, sophia
    Pila Mulligan: hi sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Here comes Bert! :)
    sophia Placebo: hi pila
    Maxine Walden: Imagine we all have our experience of time in our dreams and it would be good to gather our thoughts; ah...will wait til Bert is here fully
    Pila Mulligan: hi Bert
    Maxine Walden: hi, Bertrum, glad you could make it.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Bertrum
    Wol Euler: hello bertrum
    Bertrum Quan: hi everyone. sorry I'm late
    Maxine Walden: we were just beginning to think about time and dreams, time in dreams...something you had expressed interest in
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, I think dreams provide important clues as to the understanding "reality"
    Pila Mulligan: hi Scathach
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)
    Maxine Walden: maybe we could each share our own experience; in my own experience of the dream, re time, there is the sense of an ever-present 'now' but also the dream as remembered has a sense of linearity...but in the moment of the dream, everything seems to be a 'now'
    Maxine Walden: and it is only in recalling the dream that it seems to have sequence and flow
    Maxine Walden: what are others' experience?
    Pila Mulligan: my dreams have a fairly ordinary variety of time, in terms of sequence and flow
    Wol Euler: now that you ask, the narrative jumps around a lot. I think "why did that happen?" and then the dream goes back a step to supply the backstory
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm
    stevenaia Michinaga: I often wonder when I hear something that I think is in non-dream reality that the dream has been scripted to include that heard sound insantainiously but is remembered in "normal time
    Wester Kiranov: I was thinking maybe it has something to do with not having steady reference points in space. Because in a dream you think it's normal time, but at the same time things change
    Wester Kiranov: more than normal
    Fefonz Quan: totally sequential for me, some jump sometimes
    Maxine Walden: different experiences...but maybe some common threads?
    Riddle Sideways: not sure... maybe 50% things is dream seem to be normal time lengths
    Pila Mulligan: we may be assuming we all expereince waking (non-sleeping) time the same, but in fact we may not
    Wol Euler: heh
    Riddle Sideways: and 50% jumping , slowing, speeding
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, good point
    sophia Placebo: never come to my mind to pay attention to time in dream > still processing and remmbering her dreams
    stevenaia Michinaga: is there any way to gage how long a dream takes (if measured ) vs how long the dream appears to last in dream time?
    Bertrum Quan: I that that dreams and memory are inherently non-linear.
    Eliza Madrigal: Supposedly very short...like a flash can seem to last hours. That's what I've heard anyway.
    Maxine Walden: think some research has been done re the 'real time' for dreams, and that dreams are not as instantaneous as we may have thought...what have others heard?
    Fefonz Quan: for me it is very similar to movie time. so during each scene time is linear, but then moving to another scene can be jumping forward or backward
    Wol Euler nods to Fefonz
    Eliza Madrigal: Fef, yes I relate to that too
    Wester Kiranov: but then when do the scenes change?
    Riddle Sideways: though there is a preceiption of a long time length
    Fefonz Quan: i have heard that surely the time in a dream is faster than RL, stil it is not instantaneus at all.
    Bertrum Quan: But in movies the senseof time is often anillusion within an illusion. As soon as you make an edit you have altered linearity
    Wol Euler: I gather from daydreams and drowsy sleeping that quite a long dream fits into a few minutes of RL time
    Wol Euler: (for me)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods at Wol
    Fefonz Quan: well bertrum, in most movie scene i reacall time seems to be quite normal
    Eliza Madrigal: I've had consecute dreams....diff days, diff chapters of same dream. That is rare though.
    Maxine Walden: complex dream thoughts in a short time, perhaps?
    Fefonz Quan nods at Wol too
    Eliza Madrigal: *consecutive dreams...those were more like movie time
    Bertrum Quan: This is certainly relative in both dreams and in movies.
    Eliza Madrigal: So diff sorts of dreams prob. use time differently
    Maxine Walden: yes, following on from Wol's comment, I have often noticed that what seems like a very complex series of daydream thoughts takes only a couple/few seconds
    Bertrum Quan: I my excperience at least it is the attempot to make sense and to remember that often proves some sense of linear time
    sophia Placebo: me too eliza re cosecutive dreams
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Maxine Walden: and then there is the 'recalling' of the dream which may order or alter it...as Bert is just saying
    Bertrum Quan: *not proves--provides a sense of linear time
    Wol Euler: oh yes, they change in the telling :)
    Eliza Madrigal: yes...more and more detail when telling or writing out
    Fefonz Quan: i strongly 'disagree' with bertum's notion, but that is from my experience only
    Riddle Sideways: and skippin too
    Maxine Walden: what about the consecutive dreams: representing ongoing thoughts/concerns being worked over in mind?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes I think so
    Wester Kiranov: I think when you're in the dream you often feel time is "normal", only afterwards you notice things were strange.
    sophia Placebo: well re maxine : thinking of eating a pie is faster than really eating it i guess
    Fefonz Quan: /nods to wester
    Eliza Madrigal: :D...true
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, in the dream things at the moment make very great sense...
    Maxine Walden: the reality of the dreamer seems to differ from the recaller of the dream?
    Maxine Walden: differ from the reality of the recaller?
    Wester Kiranov: that is a nice way of saying things
    sophia Placebo: cosecutive dreams for me are novels and normal dreams are short stories :) real life cocerns dreams are those of going to exam unprepared kind and never in consecutive manner
    Pila Mulligan: has anyone else had dreams of real life events that happen after the dream?
    stevenaia Michinaga: like dreaming of tomarrow's stock market closings. Pila?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Bertrum Quan: The reality of dream and the reality of RL are in a sense one in the same---and in their difference there may be important clues of the the illusion of reality.
    Riddle Sideways: like deja vu, I all of asudden know that I had dreamed this moment
    Maxine Walden: care to say more Bert?
    Fefonz Quan: sure Pila, i had occasions , like big tests or things like that, that when happened in RL where the 3rd time for me... though the dream surely didn't predict the real life experience
    Wol Euler: hello adams
    Wester Kiranov: hi adams
    Eliza Madrigal: Hey Adams! :)
    Fefonz Quan: heyadams
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams
    sophia Placebo: hi adams
    Maxine Walden: hi, Adams, welcome.
    Riddle Sideways: like dreaming that adams would be here :)
    Adams Rubble tries to sneak in quietly and whispers Hello Everyone :)
    Bertrum Quan: From what I've read and experiecned, one does not remember nevery moment of a night's sleep. What we do remember may or may not seem linear.
    Riddle Sideways: seems the same for RL
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: i've read that the dreams we remember are those that happened before we woke up
    Bertrum Quan: Dreams also may seem "real" and it is in RL that we decide that they are an "illusion."
    Wester Kiranov: agrees with fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: sure, it is hard to say if the dream is real while in it
    Riddle Sideways: have that feeling a lot Bert
    Wol Euler: some remembered dreams are as "real" and resonant and significant emotionally, as memories of waking experienes
    Eliza Madrigal: absolutely
    Fefonz Quan nods to wol
    Wol Euler: I find it hard to tell sometimes the difference between a memory of a dream and a memory of na experience
    Wester Kiranov: isnt this like when we discussed if reality was fiction?
    Bertrum Quan: But as we explore the function of time in dreams and time in real life, the emotions may be real... but that does does not make them linear...
    Wester Kiranov: some fiction is more meaningful than RL
    Wol Euler: yes!
    Fefonz Quan: i find that too, but mainly after the memory of the real experience fades after a long time
    Wester Kiranov: some dreams may be more meaningful than RL
    Wester Kiranov: that's why we often take such pains to decode them
    Bertrum Quan: Is it possible that dream and RL or on in the same? Some meaningful and some not...
    stevenaia Michinaga: decode? interperate?
    Wester Kiranov: interpretate is better
    Fefonz Quan: (fefonz sometimes mostly take much pain in order to survive them ;-))
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila, I saw my oldest daughter's eyes before she was born...but only realized it after she was born...that was a moment when RL/DL/everything seemed to *meet up* ..very much a deja vu...but I can analyze myself out of it if I try.."Oh, wild pregnancy hormones" haha
    Wol Euler: wow
    sophia Placebo: i once watched a kids show -anime- where one charachter knew she was in a dream , the other night i dreamt a dream in which i knew i was dreaming , never happened again:)
    Pila Mulligan: :) ELiza
    Wester Kiranov: i once had a dream where i recognized the situation as a typical dream situation, but still did not recognize I was dreaming
    Bertrum Quan: The reality of dream and RL reside in the mind. They exist in that world as one.
    Riddle Sideways: yes
    Fefonz Quan: for me many sometimes i do understand that the situation is a dream, hence i am in one.
    Eliza Madrigal: and with attention we weave them together?
    Pila Mulligan: if I understand Bert correctly, I agree that waking memories and memories of dreams exist simply as events in our experience, but our mind arranges them as linear of sequential events, if it can
    Pila Mulligan: in some cases it seems unreasonable to the mind, though, if the dream event relates to a waking event that happens later in sequence
    Fefonz Quan: i am not sure the dream and RL exist on similar level, bertum
    Maxine Walden: Very interesting thoughts about the 'reality' of RL and dreams...
    Maxine Walden: with some variation according to individual experience
    Wol Euler: does anyone else dream in SL, in their av bodies with the SL tools and habits?
    Adams Rubble: yes Wol
    Fefonz Quan: Pilla, i thought the linearity of deam time can e observed without reference to rl events
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Wester Kiranov: not yet ;)
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes Wol, sometimes:)
    Wester Kiranov: agree wit fef again
    Pila Mulligan: that too, Fefonz -- but Bert may have addressed a different idea of linearity
    Fefonz Quan: nope (to Wol)
    Adams Rubble: I often dream I am in PaB sessions when some insight is about to hit
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: but pila, i don't find any reason for the dream events to be before/after rl events.
    Pila Mulligan: well, Fefonz, let's say there is a dream in January 2009 and then a quite similar real life event happens in February 2009 -- such that they seem related :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: maybe the conditions for the event in Feb were already in the subconscious in January
    Fefonz Quan: well, future prediction is another thing :)
    Pila Mulligan: yep
    Bertrum Quan: We often look atr the content of dreams for meaning and interpretation. But for our discussion, we are looking at a different aspect...
    Pila Mulligan: that's what I meant by prescient dreaming earlier -- future prediction dreams
    Bertrum Quan: We vare looking at the th whole of "experience" of life whether on dream or RL --to expand our sense of reality.
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Bert, and dreams and waking moments contributre events to that expereince
    Maxine Walden: And perhaps we are eagerly sharing our varied experience re dreams and RL or even SL so that right now we are getting a sense of what each of us thinks, and how we differ
    Adams Rubble nods
    Eliza Madrigal thinks she is half dreaming all the time, so her stories should be "bracketed" hehe
    Adams Rubble: My dreams have reminded me of thinngs long forgotten
    Maxine Walden: We began with Time and Dreams, but are really exploring lots of aspects of the dreaming experience
    Maxine Walden: yes, dreams do seem to touch something deep inside of us a lot...long agos and longings as well
    Bertrum Quan: The whole idea of waking moments --awakening--is key as well
    Fefonz Quan: maybe for me the dream is more 'narrative-based' than 'time-baesd', so if the narrative demands it, the dream time can jump forward and backward. In fact, the dream is not even 'space-based', since many times i jump to diifferent places in side the dream world if the narrative demands it
    stevenaia Michinaga: must go, RL calling
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
    Adams Rubble: byes teve
    Wester Kiranov: i like that idea fef
    Maxine Walden: bye steve
    Fefonz Quan: bye steve
    Wester Kiranov: bye steve
    Bertrum Quan: bey Steve
    Eliza Madrigal: Noticing, Bertrum? Appreciating brings out the substance of both RL and DL.
    Maxine Walden: very interesting, fef...all our contributions are so interesting...do we wish to continue this discussion next Sunday 1300? Or other thoughts?
    Pila Mulligan: sure
    Wol Euler: yes, that would be fine
    Wester Kiranov: I would like to continue next week - we've only skimmed the surface so far
    Maxine Walden: we could have a kind of theme which of course could evolve...
    Fefonz Quan might be away next week, but anyhow that sound like a good idea.
    Maxine Walden: but as you say, Wester, we have only begun the scratch the surface
    Eliza Madrigal: Bertrum, can you make it next week?
    Wester Kiranov: have to go now, RL calling
    Fefonz Quan: I think that Bertrum pointed to something very intruiging - waking up from a dream is like a practice of the mind in waking up into a whole different reality. and it is amasing how we manage to do it every morning in just a few seconds
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Wester
    Wol Euler: bye wester
    Adams Rubble: bye Wester
    Wester Kiranov: bye all.
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Wester
    Eliza Madrigal: Fef, yes!
    Fefonz Quan: bye wester
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wester
    Maxine Walden: For any who cannot make next Sunday there is a dream workshop Tuesdays 1400 where some of these themes could also be discussed
    Maxine Walden: bye Wester
    Maxine Walden: yes, interesting points Bert and fef re the waking experience
    Bertrum Quan: Thanks, Maxine
    Maxine Walden: I have a 1400 meeting to go to in a moment but have to say that this hour went by so rapidly!! The notion of attentive experience and time is another interesting thing...
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Maxine Walden: such interesting topics and time flies!
    Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine, thanks
    Wol Euler: bye maxine, thank you
    Maxine Walden: bye all see you next week
    Fefonz Quan: time flies when you're having fun :)
    sophia Placebo: thank you maxine
    Fefonz Quan: and fruit flies like apples ;-)
    Wol Euler wonders how old that joke really is ...
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye heehee
    Wol Euler: bye scath, take care
    sophia Placebo: bye scath
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scathach
    Scathach Rhiadra: that didn't come oput as I expected:)
    Fefonz Quan: bye scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: laughing at Fefonz, bye was for maxine!
    Pila Mulligan: an unexpected bye :)
    Wol Euler: heheh
    Eliza Madrigal wonders if Scath is still dizzy from the maze, tooo
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, possibly
    Fefonz Quan: maze?
    Wol Euler: I was thinking earlier about hte question of prediciton in dreams, if it is reasonable to think that dreams might predict RL
    sophia Placebo: in an art gallery
    Pila Mulligan: it may not be reasonable but it happens , Wol :)
    Wol Euler: because the logic of dreams can be totally twisted... why would their "prediction" not be the same?
    Eliza Madrigal: It may just be one element which shows up...
    Wol Euler: (I'm not denying it, I am wondering about the content though)
    Fefonz Quan: not the same in what sense wol?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, and this is a time related wonder :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: could be coincidence, maybe?
    Wol Euler: why would the dreamed predictive content not be totally illogical?
    Wol Euler: is that perhaps someting special to predictive dreams, that they are excpmt from illogic?
    Fefonz Quan: why illogical? te other happenings in the dreams are many times logical
    Pila Mulligan: it probably is an illogical conicdence, but it happens
    Pila Mulligan: they may be exempt from time :)
    Pila Mulligan: or have a hall pass or something
    Eliza Madrigal: Waking life can feel like re-reading something you've read before. I've heard many people talk about that
    Wol Euler: (maybe predictive dreams are qualitatively different, is what I wanted to say)
    Fefonz Quan: i had thousands of dreams i guess, very few predicted successfuly the future, if any
    Eliza Madrigal: and I'd concur...so I wonder how much we experience in sleep we don't call or remember as a "dream"
    Wol Euler: what made me think this was remembering a fragment of a dream while you were talking about prediction
    Adams Rubble: wow, as Maxine said, so many interesting thoughts :)
    Wol Euler: I dreamed that my sister's black Lab dog was a red-haired green-eyed girl
    Wol Euler: but at the same time it/she was defnintely a black dog.
    Eliza Madrigal: Hmm...Like accessing a different sort of reasoning place where we work things out or see differently
    Fefonz Quan: yes, shape-shifting happens a lot in my dreams too.
    Pila Mulligan: maybe she is a black dog with an advanced self-image :0
    Wol Euler: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Bertrum Quan: Ways of knowing... if time is a construct of trhe Mond---past, present and future, why is it not possible to tap into to future through the dream?
    Fefonz Quan: it feels like i dream about the 'sumbolic' person/house place, but the appearance can be veri different frm RL
    Bertrum Quan: Mind
    sophia Placebo: so what do you predeict wol?
    Wol Euler: yes, fef, that is true for me too
    Wol Euler: I've never had predictive dreams as such. I have dreamed of solutions to RL problems, which actually worked.
    Wol Euler: (well, maybe that is predictive ...)
    sophia Placebo: practicaly amazing
    Eliza Madrigal nods...sometimes we have to put the "working" part of our minds to the side in order to see a solution
    Fefonz Quan: but what i find more intruiging Brt, is that if time is so illusionary, why do we keep it so linear, even in the dream world
    Wol Euler nods
    Fefonz Quan: i would say time and thoughts are tightly connected
    Pila Mulligan: for decades I've had dreams of ordinary, mundane events that were later expereinced in waking life almost verbatim, down to the point where I would be thinking about the next line in the script during the waking event
    Adams Rubble: Just a note on the future stuff, maybe we see things in our unconscious that we do not see on the conscious level that allow our unconscious to see something is about to happen but I have not had that experience myself
    Bertrum Quan: Linearity is how the mind attempts to process and make sense...
    Fefonz Quan: and since we dream our thoughts, time is a natural thre
    Fefonz Quan: r
    Wol Euler: wow, pila.
    Pila Mulligan: it is like deja vu with a dream in the backgroound
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Pila...yes, that re-reading sense....wow...yours must be clear
    Fefonz Quan: interesting pila...
    Adams Rubble: maybe you ARE following the script :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: you should do it with the lottary just once :)
    Pila Mulligan: 'all the wrold's a stage ...'
    Pila Mulligan: never had that dream, Fefonz
    sophia Placebo: linearity is mabe the default option to process but if it failed at some point we shift to other forms of reasoning
    Pila Mulligan: yes, sophia, that's my thinking too
    Pila Mulligan: the mind is more comfrotable with a rational sequence
    Wol Euler nods
    sophia Placebo: linear might not be rational at some points
    Pila Mulligan: so it seems, and Jung's synchronicity is also a chalenege to linearity in terms of defining what is significant
    sophia Placebo: but it is the easiest way and the first to be tried i think
    Pila Mulligan: well, we are used t yeaterday, today, tomorrow
    Eliza Madrigal: Adams, yes beneath the surface we do seem to experience so much we don't realize...and if one is able to allow the unconscious to be heard. Perhaps that "timeless dimension" becomes more noticeable with practice and care :)
    Bertrum Quan: But memory like dream are not inherently lineary... So that suggests to me although we gain a great deal of practical functioning through linear thinking, it is also how we fail to fully awake... there's a trade off!
    Eliza Madrigal nods to Bertrum
    Bertrum Quan: We actually have to "unlearn" linear thinking to expand our Mind
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    sophia Placebo: i wander how the memory is stored and shelfed and recalled from the brain , that may help?
    Pila Mulligan: if a year was seen to exist as a single unchanging moment, then the events within that moment would require a very wide window of perception, a kind of timeless perception
    Eliza Madrigal: Seems like a capacity that can be nurtured
    Bertrum Quan: It would be "vertical" rather than linear... layered...
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: can you say more please Bert?
    Bertrum Quan: Time as linear suggest a string of events in sequence. Your idea about a year (or a moment) can be viewed as layers--all creating the whole
    Fefonz Quan: i think memeories are not linear, at least not in the chronological sense
    Pila Mulligan: it was an image I could pose, but not graps actually, so the layering hepls :)
    Pila Mulligan: I agree Fefonz, my memories are just there
    Scathach Rhiadra really must leve now, good night everyone, Namasté
    Fefonz Quan: bt that seems less interesting
    Wol Euler: bye again scath
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, you don't have to go through one memory to get to another
    Adams Rubble: bye Scath :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Scath :)
    Fefonz Quan: bye scath!
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scathach -- for real this time :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I keep wanting a physicist to explain this all in terms of expanding time-space :)
    Bertrum Quan: And when we think of images, memories are stored chemically in the Brain... the physical process of electrical impulses and chemicals.
    Wol Euler: maybe our brain stores memories in hte way that Chinese idiograms are assembled.
    Wol Euler: a bit of red and a hint of the smell of pines and the fingertipfeel of suede, that is the summer with Michael
    Wol Euler: when they come together
    Pila Mulligan: a collage of pictures :)
    Adams Rubble nods
    Bertrum Quan: That's a great image!
    Wol Euler: a collage that makes a picture
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Oh...nice, yes.
    Wol Euler: you know, like those composites!
    Fefonz Quan: yes, beautiful and also sounds true, Wol
    Wol Euler: where people assemble hundreds of snapshots to make a composite large image
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, both one image *and* a million depending on perspective
    Bertrum Quan: I think we might also view time as a composite...
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pila Mulligan: so the essence of something could be timeless
    Fefonz Quan: composite in wat way Bertrum?
    Fefonz Quan: what*
    Bertrum Quan: Wol's image iof memory is true on a universal scale...
    Bertrum Quan: Like the pixels that make up a photographic image... the number pixels of an emotion would be very large and their arrangement would not be linear
    Pila Mulligan: small details making a collage
    Pila Mulligan: from Aldous Huxley's Book the Doors of Perception: "If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite."
    Wol Euler: actually they might be surprisingly few, and the mind fills out the details
    Bertrum Quan: The mind wants to make sense in that way Wol, that's true. But can we miss things that way... by filling in the blanks?
    Fefonz Quan: Nice quote pila, the original is of William Blake tough, aldus is quoting him
    Wol Euler: heh
    Pila Mulligan: caveat: Huxley was writing about his experiences with mescaline
    Fefonz Quan: Sure we miiss Bertrum, but this is a very usefulo way to store information
    Eliza Madrigal: If man could get ahold of the stars, we would arrange them in a perfect line
    Wol Euler: :)
    Fefonz Quan: the mind doesn't really care about the accuracy of the pixcels, it cares about which side is the tiger jumping on me
    Pila Mulligan: I like them scattered abotu, Eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Me too :) My neighborhood is evidence that perhaps my voice might not measure though :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: linear neighborhoods
    Wol Euler: heh
    Fefonz Quan: (like fefonz's words has a lot of mistakes, but you get the idea ;-0)
    Wol Euler smiles and nods
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've got to run. I hope we continue next week...hope that I make it.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
    Adams Rubble: Thank you all for a great discussion :)
    Wol Euler: bye eliza, take care.
    Adams Rubble: bye Eliza
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Eliza, have a nice week
    Adams Rubble: bye all
    Bertrum Quan: Bye Eliza.
    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks so much everyone :) Bye for now
    Pila Mulligan: bye Adams
    Wol Euler: I should go too. Goodnight all, take care, be happy
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol
    Fefonz Quan: goodnight all :)
    Pila Mulligan: regarding idea of waking moments, Bert, I have sometimes been aware of the fact that I am dreaming while still in the dream, and in some cases even begin to try integrating the dream into waking life before waking
    Pila Mulligan: hi Visitor
    Visitor: hi
    Visitor: what are you doing?
    Pila Mulligan: sitting arounbd chatting
    Fefonz Quan will go too, Bye Bertrum, Pilla
    Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz
    Pila Mulligan: can you please work up an explanation of expanding space-time for next Sunday Fefonz -- oops, too late:)
    Pila Mulligan: there are chat sessions here four times a day Visitor
    Pila Mulligan: well, nice topic Bert
    Bertrum Quan: Pila, that was an interesting discussion.
    Pila Mulligan: I liked your introducing how memory seems to have a sequnce added to it for mental organizaiton
    Pila Mulligan: but not an intrinsic sequence
    Bertrum Quan: Yes. Logic and linearlity are prized. But they can sometimes lead us to a smaller view...
    Pila Mulligan: the rational mind certainly can boast of many accomplishments
    Pila Mulligan: but seeing the whole may not be among them
    Bertrum Quan: Yes, that may be the paradox.
    Pila Mulligan: at least it is no longer reaonable to burn people for believing the world is not flat
    Bertrum Quan: Indeed!
    Bertrum Quan: I need to return to the mundate chores of the afternoon...
    Pila Mulligan: well, have a nice mundane day :)
    Bertrum Quan: And you as well...
    Pila Mulligan: aloha
    Bertrum Quan: Take care.
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