2009.04.21 01:00 - The truth of dreams

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are by Wester Kiranov.

    I sat with sophia and Susi in silence for quite a while, then sophia left and a bit later Fefonz joined us.

    Wester Kiranov: hi sophia
    sophia Placebo: hi wester
    Wester Kiranov: hi susi
    sophia Placebo: hi susi
    Susi Alcott: hi sophia and Wester
    sophia Placebo: pardon me , should leave
    sophia Placebo: see you later
    Wester Kiranov: bye sophia. see you later
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Wester Kiranov: hi fefonz
    Susi Alcott: hi Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: hi wester, susi
    Fefonz Quan: did i interupt the lively talk?
    Susi Alcott: nope

    A remark on dreams sparked a quite heated debate on the nature of dreams, in particular on the question if they always tell the truth.

    Wester Kiranov: fefonz: I have been thinking a bit about what you said a while ago about dreams being narrative-based, and it makes sense. Space (and time and person) may change but there is a story there

    Fefonz Quan nods
    Susi Alcott: dreams are the special treasure
    Fefonz Quan: could you say more Susi?
    Susi Alcott: hm
    Susi Alcott: ...could write few bibles....
    Susi Alcott: but ...well...how they are trasure
    Susi Alcott: at first; they dont ever lie
    Susi Alcott: they dont ever have any other needs but to help us
    Fefonz Quan: in what way they don't lie?
    Susi Alcott: no way
    Susi Alcott: dreams are always truthfull
    Fefonz Quan: their plot can be fiction
    Susi Alcott: symbols; not fiction
    Fefonz Quan: the behavior of people in them can differ from r l people
    Susi Alcott: all dreams are always based on one's own knowledge
    Susi Alcott: that still is not to lie
    Susi Alcott: your those word 'pickes' up not this;
    Susi Alcott: so many times we dont see with our earthly mind, if somebody is lying or pretending
    Susi Alcott: but our spirit do see that, and it may tell it to us by the dream
    Fefonz Quan: or it may be decieved as we do.
    Susi Alcott: decieved is the word I donno
    Susi Alcott: do you mean that our spirit would lie to us ?
    Wester Kiranov: fef: have you ever gotten false "information" from a dream?
    Susi Alcott: or misudnerstand something ?
    Susi Alcott: that is not possible
    Fefonz Quan: i find that dreams are another manifestations of my thought, so when my thought is dilussioned, so are my dreams
    Susi Alcott: dont agree at all
    Fefonz Quan: that depends what is information wester.
    Susi Alcott: but sure, in case one dont understand the message of the dream
    Fefonz Quan: mostly i got information tha is fictional
    Susi Alcott: sure
    Fefonz Quan: wester, have you ever got false informatin in real life?
    Susi Alcott: but it's created by your full knowledge of the matter there's in a question
    Wester Kiranov: fef: sure - people may lie to you
    Susi Alcott: each dream that people have remembered and the message has been understood, has been for help
    Susi Alcott: but yes; dreams never do that
    Fefonz Quan: ok fine. so the claim is that only people lie, and since there are no real people in my dreams, than there are no lies? (for wester0
    Wester Kiranov: and when I'm awake, I'm much better at lying to myself than when I dream
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Susi Alcott: very seldom people see dreams of other people, but 'depart' of oneself the character of the other one who's same kind with the one who sees the dream
    Susi Alcott: but in case one has trusted so much to liars, that it's turn to be a threat to one's own existence somehow
    Susi Alcott: then the spirit tries to send a message of that
    Fefonz Quan: Susi, surely i didn't say you see other people dreams, just tried to focus the lying issue, bringing it to the self
    Wester Kiranov: there are many kinds of misinformation, but I would not call them lies unless they are used AS misinformation.
    Susi Alcott: and that is the 'moment' one can still lie to onself
    Susi Alcott: if to truely to try to understand the dreams message or lie to oneself that has already done that
    Susi Alcott: but
    Wester Kiranov: there is only one real person in your dreams and that is you
    Fefonz Quan: so if we all agreeed that it is only me involved in my dreams, the only question about lying remains : how much do i lie to myself, as wester said
    Susi Alcott: there's a way how dreams uses to work out still
    Susi Alcott: as if they are not understood , they do bother one again and again
    Susi Alcott: untill one gets the true information of it
    Wester Kiranov: dreams can help you see things you are trying to hide from yourself
    Susi Alcott: I dont agree that there can be only you in your dream
    Fefonz Quan: i agree wester.
    Susi Alcott: I only said that very seldom people dream about other people
    Fefonz Quan: so there can be other people too?
    Susi Alcott: sure
    Fefonz Quan: ok, lets talk about the common dream, not the seldom ones
    Susi Alcott: and many people do have dreams from future to come
    Susi Alcott: the common is yes what Wester said
    Fefonz Quan: well i didnt have many dreams of fututre, so still the question remains, if what i tell my self in the deams is more truthful than when i am awake
    Susi Alcott: well....for example you may not feel fear when your awake, but there can be fear inside you
    Fefonz Quan: i might agree with that, but i would still suspect that i can decieve myself whiile dreaming
    Susi Alcott: then you can dream huge nightmare and that's the way to deal with the fear your not aware of with your eathly mind
    Fefonz Quan: i agree that the dream can show me more of my subconscious than the awake state
    Susi Alcott: ah yes; but there's the other feeling when one does that
    Fefonz Quan: ?
    Susi Alcott: when you observe the dream with your awaken mind, you can feel where you have manipulated the dream
    Fefonz Quan: awaken as just not sleeping, thats what i menat
    Wester Kiranov: manipulated with the awake mind or with the dream mind?
    Susi Alcott: well; the common dream is such that one dont manipulate at all
    Susi Alcott: well; the 'dream mind' tells always the truth
    Fefonz Quan: i don't agree with that susi
    Susi Alcott: so; that's no manipulating to me
    Susi Alcott: I know
    Susi Alcott: but...well...I neither can change my mind cuz I've helped people succesfully for about 55 years
    Fefonz Quan: although in a way you defined he 'deam mind' as the 'non lying mind', which is a tautology
    Susi Alcott: also 6 years in publick radio
    Wester Kiranov: Just a question to clarify word use: can fiction be true?
    Susi Alcott: sure; it's only symbol...so ...not so fiction
    Fefonz Quan: i should clarify that i don't object to the idea that dream can tell me a lot abbout myself.
    Susi Alcott: but yes; the stories in dreams has more possibilities than SL can still give to ppl to manifest there thoughs
    Fefonz Quan: i object to the sharp definition between the 'never lying' dreaming me, and the 'real life lying' me
    Susi Alcott: not if you dont undertand them
    Susi Alcott: I've described that the dream is a unopened letter to the dreamer
    Fefonz Quan: i would say that some dreams are trithful, and some not
    Susi Alcott: and it's still up to one's earthly mind if to open that and read and understand
    Susi Alcott: and taht's only based on the law that the earthly/awaken mind is the King to chooce
    Susi Alcott: as that is the free will
    Fefonz Quan: and what you say about the dreams u can say about my awake thought too. if i observe them and 'understand ' them as you say susi, then they are not lying too
    Susi Alcott: well; to know if one has understood, is the feeling one gets; that does not close out the some thought have been a lie, but leaded to find the truth
    Susi Alcott: and well; I'm not anybody to say of anybody's thoughts if they are lie or not in case I donno enough of the matter
    Susi Alcott: well...had once a conference for teachers who teaches teachers
    Susi Alcott: and the main question was how to know the truth
    Fefonz Quan: no, but you do say that you trust dreams much more than thoughts
    Susi Alcott: and after about an hours conversation, all finally understood that one can 'only' feel it
    Susi Alcott: and that feeling is always 'I know'
    Susi Alcott: in other words; there's no question anymore
    Fefonz Quan: OK, susi, i don't argue about the meaning of truth, lets slow down a bit
    Susi Alcott: but sure one can find the truth and loose it again, but it comes back for seeking it again
    Susi Alcott: well...the same resolt is when one has understood the dream

    I had to go but the conversation still went on, about dreams.

    Wester Kiranov: guys, I have to go now. have a nice/clarifying discussion. bye

    Fefonz Quan: bye wester
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Wester Kiranov: namaste
    Susi Alcott: (so sad it cannot the voice been used)
    Fefonz Quan: i am just trying to understand, (after we took other people out of the equation), why does my thoughts in dreams - the ones that create the dream, ar edifferent than my regular thoughts
    Fefonz Quan: are*
    Susi Alcott: that simply is cuz each one's spirit do see all
    Susi Alcott: but the earthly mind dont
    Fefonz Quan: is it because they are less 'conscious' and more 'subconscious'?
    Susi Alcott: and there's neither any moral in dreams, cuz they are private
    Fefonz Quan: but one's spirit is there when i am awake too
    Susi Alcott: yes
    Susi Alcott: yes, but it does not 'tell' all 'it' knows
    Fefonz Quan: ok, so you claim the spirit tends to be more revealing in dreams
    Susi Alcott: but tries to give the information one would need for 'today'
    Susi Alcott: sometimes
    Susi Alcott: and the 'sign' of that is that one do remember the dream after awakening up
    Fefonz Quan: well, i remember a dream eery day.
    Fefonz Quan: every day
    Susi Alcott: so you receive huge much more information daily
    Susi Alcott: what you can notice with your earhtly mind
    Susi Alcott: that tells about that
    Fefonz Quan: good :)
    Susi Alcott: so; there seems to be much such that you'de wanna understand more specific
    Susi Alcott: as there truly is the limit of human brain how much they can analyze
    Susi Alcott: and dreams do help with that
    Susi Alcott: well; you know how quickly the thoughts 'goes throught the head'
    Susi Alcott: but much more quickly we receive information all the time
    Susi Alcott: so; the more one wants to know; the more one's spirit wants also to help with that
    Susi Alcott: as that is also, that spirit dont ever foreget anything 'it's' seen
    Fefonz Quan: Susi, when you said you helped people using their dreams, in what way was it? therapy?
    Susi Alcott: but human mind's other treasure is to 4get the unnesessary infromation...normally :)
    Susi Alcott: well; somethings there are common too, what comes to the dreams
    Susi Alcott: so I have a little spoken too in each of my castings and conferencies
    Susi Alcott: but most is to tell the message of the dream; and the resolt was always the the dreamer felt that he/she heared the truth
    Susi Alcott: twice it ---among tens of thousands 'cases' that didn't happen
    Susi Alcott: one was such lady that say against, and I said that I only can 'repeat' what I said...
    Susi Alcott: then she said; ah..now I understand
    Susi Alcott: even I didnt' even repeat what I had said
    Susi Alcott: as her dream told that her son had not got himself to be independent
    Susi Alcott: the lady didn't understand cuz she looked at her son's life 'outside'
    Susi Alcott: as he had family and so
    Fefonz Quan: that is really impressing and maybe you yourself have a clear insight concerning dreams.
    Susi Alcott: but he still worked for and with his childhood family
    Susi Alcott: the othere 'case' was that I was already so tired (after 4 hours casting)
    Susi Alcott: that I couldn't find the exact word for that caller, who's fear won for that
    Fefonz Quan: So my next question is, do you think that if we look clearly at our thoughts and mind or spirit during the waking hours, surely after some work that removes a lot of our filters, could we get similar information there?
    Susi Alcott: so he didn't hear me....and yes; he didn't 'get it'....and it revealed the way that he made the same question again and again
    Susi Alcott: well; now you connect two things; to observe our thoughts....that's different that to obsever them dreams
    Susi Alcott: but...well...if we get back to that feeling of to find a piece of the truth
    Susi Alcott: and keep that 'wtihin'; the answer sure is yes
    Susi Alcott: and yes; that feeling of truth truely is the 'key'....
    Susi Alcott: as I did only live castings, cuz I didn't want to take any risk that people would've think the casting to been manipulated
    Susi Alcott: as I wanted all to hear how the calle 'got it'
    Fefonz Quan: I think ou may really enjoy the Kira dream workshop Susi, have you been there?
    Susi Alcott: cuz that was always to been heared from his/her voice and 'sigh'
    Fefonz Quan: (btw - what is castings?)
    Susi Alcott: radio...speaking in radio; ppl called to the studio online
    Susi Alcott: that all could hear
    Fefonz Quan: ah, ok thanks.
    Susi Alcott: hm...broadcasting better word ?
    Fefonz Quan: sure ;)
    Susi Alcott: well....I did withdraw from the publick...for the reason
    Susi Alcott: I've been asked to cast in SL much, and once I heared the 'voice of the truth' that I must say yes
    Susi Alcott: that was for a while that I could help few ppl that way in SL too
    Susi Alcott: but it soon turned out that 'that's about that' and I stopped that too
    Susi Alcott: well...as I dont much 'follow' of based on any interest of my own...
    Susi Alcott: as I was bron to SL to work....
    Fefonz Quan: thanks for telling that.
    Fefonz Quan: have you been to the dream workshop?
    Susi Alcott: but I understand your words, cuz I've been the most happy in my RL those years of the radio castings
    Susi Alcott: what more could one enjoy of , but if can help thousands of people at the same time :)
    Susi Alcott: no I have not
    Susi Alcott: didn't even know about that
    Fefonz Quan: it is on tuesday, at 2pm SLT, guided by Maxine
    Fefonz Quan: do you know how to get to the Kira cafe?
    Susi Alcott: (as the help to all of the listeners was how they could experience the possibility that there dreams can also be understood, even if they couldn't get through to the casting)
    Fefonz Quan: yes, that's quite amasing.
    Susi Alcott: ah...well...dont know that, and think that I'm not needed there
    Fefonz Quan: as you choose, surely. there are a lot of open thoughts of dreams and their perposes and contents, so you might find it interesting and might also contribute. if you want i can give you the landmark, but it's your call
    Susi Alcott: ah...dear person; I dont believe to opinions and free thoughts...each dream is unic....
    Susi Alcott: and there's aleady ---for them dream books----so much missleading, that I dont want to add enything wtih my poor english
    Susi Alcott: as the matter of fact is that missunderstandings are easy even if there's a freind who wants to understand my words
    Susi Alcott: ...may I tell a story ?
    Fefonz Quan: you can, though i thought of going to sleep now, it is night here :)
    Fefonz Quan: (so i might not be able to appereciate it properly...0
    Fefonz Quan: )
    Susi Alcott: ah...well..not long story; my very dear lady friend, who knows all of me, asked if I'de write a dream book for her
    Susi Alcott: but I told that it's impossible
    Susi Alcott: and promised to proove it to her
    Susi Alcott: so I promised to write down as much as I can that how water could mean in her own dreams, as I know her mind too
    Susi Alcott: so; I wrote 4-5 -A4 pages full
    Susi Alcott: and then I stopped to words; and this is not all
    Susi Alcott: she read that all and addmitted that all was true; she 'got it' all
    Susi Alcott: end of the story
    Susi Alcott: wishing you very good night dear person
    Susi Alcott: _/!\_
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i don't believe in 'dream recipies' that are universal to all people too.
    Fefonz Quan: good night, and sweet dreams :)
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