2009.04.28 13:00 - The Eyes Have It, Or Does Being Yonder

    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

    Pila opens the session on practiced meditation


    Pila Mulligan: Scathach, I had seen in chat logs before that you have practiced meditation for 30+ years :) (and I had thought you were a student) -- how do you like it (the long term experience)?

    Scathach Rhiadra: well could not imagine life without it:)

    Pila Mulligan: :) familair thought

    Pila Mulligan: is it a daily practice?
    Scathach Rhiadra: um, mostly yes, but sometimes over the years this has meant just a few minutes a d
    Scathach Rhiadra: day*
    Pila Mulligan: it is the most helpful thing available, in ym opinion
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Mickorod Renard: what aspects of practice do u find most beneficial Scath?
    Scathach Rhiadra: mmm, calming the mind first
    Mickorod Renard: I believe Pila does the breathing ,,is that ur way too?

    Scathach Rhiadra: then the awareness of being the present, so to speak, probably the most important

    Scathach Rhiadra: I find it a very expansive, alert awareness

    Then we branch into aspects of life

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,i sort of try and do that on my way to work
    Mickorod Renard: i know its not the best place,,but it seems to work for me
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Mickorod Renard: This is the first job i have had that i dont worry on the way to work
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    arabella Ella: cool
    Scathach Rhiadra: I hate jobs that you cannot leave behind when you go home:)
    Mickorod Renard: me too
    sophia Placebo: me three
    Scathach Rhiadra: have never been very ambitious jobwise:)
    Mickorod Renard: nor me,,but this time I think, is more about my state of mind
    sophia Placebo: not sure about my job ambisouse thing
    Mickorod Renard: I like to feel appreciated
    sophia Placebo: ambitious*
    sophia Placebo: i want to get rid of that feeling :)
    Qt Core: i someties take my job at home in an inconscious way and sometimes a solution for a work related problem sprout at the most inopportune moment ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: thats good providing its not a pressure for you to find the solution in your own time
    Mickorod Renard: and 'ambitious must be an ambiguous work too
    Mickorod Renard: word
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, I suppose it depends on what we consider laeding a successful life to be
    Scathach Rhiadra: leading*
    Mickorod Renard: exactly..i am now ambitious to enjoy my work
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Mickorod Renard: and my colleagues
    Mickorod Renard: I am supprised at how many people are dissatisfied with where they live,,in the world,,is that common in your parts of the world?
    Mickorod Renard: maybe its just a UK thing
    Scathach Rhiadra: everybody seems to want to be somewhere else
    Mickorod Renard: thats sort of reasuring
    sophia Placebo: i want to live in a cooler place :P
    Mickorod Renard: I tried a warmer place
    sophia Placebo: like it ?
    Qt Core: i think that many times people got to knows only the pros about the places they don't live in while the well know the proplems of their place
    arabella Ella: I am happy where I am but I would enjoy living in a larger place
    Mickorod Renard: well,,it was to extreme between the seasons
    arabella Ella agrees with Qt as all places have pros and cons
    Mickorod Renard: too hot summer and too cold winter
    arabella Ella: nowhere is perfect
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Qt Core: many say to me they'll like to live here in Italy, but most think all Italy is like the Tuscany hiulls or Neaples gulf
    arabella Ella: and i suppose as humans we strive for ... more?
    sophia Placebo: yep as it said here -how many places a man become familiar with and like but nothing like home
    arabella Ella loves Italy ... was in Bologna last week :)
    Qt Core: while i live in foggy Milan (i love fog)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    arabella Ella: another brit expression ... the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: but the more we get the more we want, never satisfied
    Mickorod Renard: the uk has been good in that you can go anywhere from here,,easily
    Qt Core: not only a brit one ;-)
    arabella Ella agrees with scath ... as humans the more we want the less satisfied we become
    sophia Placebo: i dont like the weather here,too hot for any living being , but i love my room :)
    arabella Ella: do you have a similar italian expression Qt?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,we discussed that here once,,about the probs with having choice
    Mickorod Renard: love your room,,or space?
    arabella Ella: Hey Qt just seen Milano on Italian TV :)
    Qt Core: identical i'd like to know it if isn't a translation but it was born independently
    sophia Placebo: my room :) and space
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    arabella Ella: could you say it in Italian please Qt?
    Qt Core: l'erba del vicino e' sempre piu' verde (i use single quotes as accents at words end as i use a USA keyboard)
    arabella Ella: interesting
    Mickorod Renard: cool
    arabella Ella: so a literal translation would be ... a neighbour's grass is always greener?
    Mickorod Renard: I like the Uk because everything is a joke
    Qt Core: yes
    Mickorod Renard: if someone says something serious to me I am took aback (shocked)
    sophia Placebo: lol mick :) houmor spirit and sarcasism where i live is high too and i love it
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaa
    Mickorod Renard: where is that Sophia,,if I may ask?
    Pila Mulligan: Waq Waq islands
    sophia Placebo: im in saudi arabia but the sarcisim is only in my city :)
    arabella Ella: intercultural differences are always interesting and I would like to relate briefly an experience from last week
    sophia Placebo: lol yes waq waq islands
    Mickorod Renard: cool

    Then Arabella brings eyes into focus

    arabella Ella: I had to teach a british girl while in Bologna to look into the eyes of a male and to try to read into them
    arabella Ella: since in England no one looks into any one else's eyes
    arabella Ella: it was a weird experience trying to explain the different culture to her
    Mickorod Renard: only in love
    arabella Ella: yes?
    Mickorod Renard: or hate
    Mickorod Renard: perhaps
    arabella Ella: she was young and assertive yet she found it so difficult to do
    Qt Core: some would take it as being extremely shy or hiding something
    Scathach Rhiadra: or in some places looking directly into someone's eyes could be extremly rude
    arabella Ella: yes ... yet if you go on a train in the UK people actually keep on looking at the ground
    arabella Ella: in the UK they seem to totally avoid eye contact
    sophia Placebo: she might give him a wrong and un intended message while reading his eyes
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    arabella Ella: correct me if I am wrong Qt but in Italy it is a normal and accepted way of flirting
    sophia Placebo: since it is uncommon act in uk
    arabella Ella: harmless really
    Mickorod Renard: I love looking into eyes,,its like the gateways to another universe,,which it is I guess
    Qt Core: yes, adding a smile
    arabella Ella: and ... I must add ... the Italian guy's eyes were deep intense pools ... full of meaning :)
    arabella Ella: typical italian too
    Pila Mulligan: cultural differences are indeed interesting
    sophia Placebo: eye is soul window :)
    arabella Ella: yes

    arabella Ella: and in mediterranean countries there is absolutely nothing wrong with looking at peoples eyes
    Qt Core: one of the best thing in sl... meeting so many cultures and aknowledging how provincial you are ;-)
    arabella Ella nods
    sophia Placebo: we use eye contact here to communicate , so looking into everyone eye is a lost person attetdue and not looking into anyone eye is a loony person attedude
    Mickorod Renard: well,,in the Uk you can look into peoples eys..its expected,,but not too lustfully unless u are gonna follow it up
    arabella Ella: the only thing I miss here is the voice accents ... I love accepts

    arabella Ella: accents

    arabella Ella: some people think that when you do not look into a person's eyes you are being evasive or deceptive
    Pila Mulligan: were were talking about cultural differences and eye contact, gen
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,that is a fine balence to gauge
    Mickorod Renard: balance
    sophia Placebo: uninterested too arabella and not showing good manners
    sophia Placebo: thats is here
    Qt Core: i mostly look at face, sometimes i feels that looking at eyes gave me and/let out too much information/energy
    arabella Ella: yes sophia
    Mickorod Renard: I love the way that the pattern in the eyes sort of bursts out from the pupil
    arabella Ella: yea
    Mickorod Renard: like an exploding star
    genesis Zhangsun: it can be a very intense experience to look directly into someone's eyes
    Mickorod Renard: not that i look of course,,i am a brit
    genesis Zhangsun: doorway to the soul
    arabella Ella: :)
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    genesis Zhangsun: mirrors, windows what is it?
    arabella Ella: i think it is ... the eyes are the mirror of the soul
    arabella Ella: (but it could be windows)
    sophia Placebo: but male female eye contact is not recommended here so im speaking about the rules btw 1 gender only :)
    arabella Ella: (the brits would know)
    genesis Zhangsun: funny it produces an effect of being reflected back and yet at the same time drawn in
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,sometimes they suck you in
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes it is like that in most of Asia too
    genesis Zhangsun: interesting Sophia
    Mickorod Renard: here,,men avoid looking into each others eyes..i guess thats an issue about sexuality
    Qt Core: here it is only a matter of how much time you do it there is no rule about sexes
    sophia Placebo: i guess iming is critical
    sophia Placebo: timing*
    arabella Ella: both timing and context i guess
    Qt Core: (especially the number of people around you)
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,if you are talking about sex at the same time it could be a give away
    sophia Placebo: bief contact is a benign friendly and a sign of peacefull person, a longer contact is a sign of a message btw the 2 regardless of gender
    sophia Placebo: brief*
    Pila Mulligan: at the risk of sounding crass, baring the soul is like going to a nude beach, you get used to it and then it is not really unusual -- but unless you are used to it, it is a big deal
    arabella Ella nods
    Qt Core: i agree

    Soul baring

    Mickorod Renard: do you think it is healthy to bare the soul Pila? or anyone?
    genesis Zhangsun: absolutely :)
    Pila Mulligan: if it is uncomfortable maybe not
    Pila Mulligan: but it helps if you can
    genesis Zhangsun: how can you identify what to let go until you yourself confront what it is you don't want others and yourself to see
    Mickorod Renard: I feel less burdoned now I have worn less covering
    Qt Core: it even depend also on who

    Pila Mulligan slips off to Maxine's dream workshop -- bye everyone :)

    sophia Placebo: i dont like it , keep my soul dressed . if its imperfect then i'll keep that to myself , i know others know that imperfect and thats all they need to know unless i told them activly

    genesis Zhangsun: well I don't mean to suggest that we should see more of what is imperfect but to just see more of what it is general
    genesis Zhangsun: sometimes we don't know until we bring it into the light what is really there
    Mickorod Renard: Sophie,,You have to remember that no one is perfect
    sophia Placebo: lol true mick , thats too makes a relife
    Mickorod Renard: he he he
    arabella Ella: I personally dont think there is anything wrong with baring one's soul ... in the right context of course
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I think it is important to consider context and motivation
    Qt Core: beingh "right context" the central point ;-)
    sophia Placebo: well i guess gen i used to be a good lister and less reactioner so many times poeple told me who iam , the goods and bads , directly and undirectly
    Fefonz Quan: from my experience being a listnener gets people mostly to talk about themselves
    sophia Placebo: but i tend to bare part of my soul with diffrent poeple , kinda - dont put all the eggs in one basket - :)
    Qt Core: speaking about anything else would be a duscussion
    Qt Core: and require the intervention of the other person
    sophia Placebo: yes fef true , they speak about themselves more but if you pass that point and listen deeper , you would hear them talk about you :)
    Fefonz Quan: and that can be nice too Sophie :)
    Fefonz Quan: in a way i believe we can't totally hide ourselves
    Fefonz Quan: as well as we can't totally expose ourselves to anyone
    genesis Zhangsun: I think the more we try the more people see through it :)
    sophia Placebo: agree fef
    Fefonz Quan: agree with gen.
    Qt Core: interesting idea sophia and what they choose to say or not saying speaks about how much they values the listener too, i suppose
    sophia Placebo: exactly qt
    arabella Ella: but ... i do tend to think from my experience ppl tend to speak only about themselves when they find a good listener
    Qt Core: (or maybe only how much they NEED a listener)
    Fefonz Quan: i can tell from my own experience, that when i am more easy with myself, then the question of what i expose and what people will say about it becomes less crucial
    genesis Zhangsun: what bvecomes more crucial?
    arabella Ella: yes it takes self confidence and self esteem .... or naivety at the other extreme
    sophia Placebo: who cares about what others think ?:P
    Scathach Rhiadra: some people care too much
    Fefonz Quan: don't know Gen, jsut that the issue of "what do i want them to think about me" can be almost neglected
    arabella Ella: ehrm ... sophia ... in a small community where reputation is important ... u cannot not care
    genesis Zhangsun: and some care too little ;)
    Fefonz Quan: yes sophia :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes that is nice feeling Fefonz
    Qt Core: and some care too much about the fact that there is people that don't cares ;-)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: that is probably what it it is to "be with what is"
    genesis Zhangsun: just being not having a sort neurotic conversation with yourself
    genesis Zhangsun: about what it means or what others will think
    Scathach Rhiadra nods
    Fefonz Quan: exactly Gen, nice description
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    sophia Placebo: yeah arabella, totally understand being living in a one , but somethngs are important to keep your social cv clean from, others are not
    arabella Ella nods
    Fefonz Quan: well, cv and who you are are totally different things ;-)
    Mickorod Renard: I have found that one issue that effects mmost of us is that we like to feel loved,,or appreciated
    arabella Ella: what we mean Fef is that in a small community you cannot risk ruining your reputation as if you do there is nowhere to 'escape' to
    sophia Placebo: i was talking about the memory of small community where old ladyes know my gradpa and grandmah and every member of my famil better than me and told me stories about my childhoood i dont recall fef
    arabella Ella: oh yes sophia and that is one of the lovely things being on SL
    genesis Zhangsun: very interesting sophia to contrast with a place like this
    Fefonz Quan: Yes Ara, being the son of parents who lived in a Kibutz, i know exactly what you mean
    sophia Placebo: gossip commutiy where small issues are the news:)
    genesis Zhangsun: what we perceive as our "self" in much smaller communities
    genesis Zhangsun: is much more narrowly defined
    Qt Core: it happens even in little areas in bigger towns here
    genesis Zhangsun: others are constantly defining it for you
    Qt Core: not only in smaller ones
    genesis Zhangsun: sure but here in SL
    genesis Zhangsun: that is a completely different story in a way
    genesis Zhangsun: the other extreme
    arabella Ella: I call it 'baggage' ... like the shell of a tortoise ... and we dont have it on SL
    sophia Placebo: thats how i learn to see myself in others gen
    genesis Zhangsun: yes I understand better sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: and myself expanded:)
    genesis Zhangsun: and others can of course help us to see better
    genesis Zhangsun: but important not to get trapped in their images
    Mickorod Renard: I think here is a good medium for exploring our inner feelings
    Fefonz Quan: even though, we should remember that although other are like mirros for us, they are broken and twisted mirrors, reflecting themselves too
    Fefonz Quan: so we should take our reflections with a bit of salt
    genesis Zhangsun: indeed and what of the self at all, what is it but a lot accumulated distorted images
    sophia Placebo: here is my philosophy about small community : there is no others , so if someone is trying to define yourself to you then he/she is doing the same thing to him/herself
    Mickorod Renard: I think many of us go through life thinking that we alone have these odd questions,,but here we find that we are not alone in these thoughts
    sophia Placebo: it is like contagious behaviour :)
    arabella Ella: like a computer virus spread through minds and thoughts you mean sophia?
    genesis Zhangsun: perhaps Mic it is because there inconsistencies in our generally accepted views of reality-self, time, etc
    Fefonz Quan: but because many of them are distorted Gen, maybe we can convlolve them one with the other, and clear out the noise ?

    genesis Zhangsun: indeed sophia perhaps there is no difference

    sophia Placebo: im not saying it is the only way fef , but sure it is not a clear image of self particularly if you know that person well
    Fefonz Quan: sure, i said it is not clear image too
    genesis Zhangsun: we are talking about accurate descriptions of the self, but does the self really exist
    Qt Core: time to go for me, have fun, bye

    genesis Zhangsun: or is the inability accurately describe it indicting that it doesn't really exist?

    genesis Zhangsun: *indicating
    Scathach Rhiadra nods @ Gen
    Fefonz Quan: i think that at least it show us clearly that the self is not a rigtid constant thing that can be described clearly any other moment
    Fefonz Quan: shows
    genesis Zhangsun: I like this [14:08] Fefonz Quan: as well as we can't totally expose ourselves to anyone
    genesis Zhangsun: and now think about the self as unfolding in time
    genesis Zhangsun: we can't totally expose ourselves even to ourselves
    arabella Ella: the self is always in flux ... and the minute we try to pin down the self ... it slips away into the next moment in the future
    Fefonz Quan: yes, like a river, you can't enter (or see it) twice the same, since it changes all the time
    arabella Ella nods
    Mickorod Renard: and in the future we redefine our past too
    arabella Ella: it is like ... the moment we say 'now' it has already moved into the past
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Fefonz Quan: (Gen - maybe if we totally expose ourselves to ourselves, peeling all teh shells, we might get to the (empty?) core)
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: or maybe we do that by holding the idea of shells and core very very lightly
    genesis Zhangsun: until they are all there but transparent enough to see them
    Mickorod Renard: I sometimes think that it is impossible,,and that we are already too corupted
    Mickorod Renard: or damaged
    Fefonz Quan: yes, even the definition of core/shells (outer reflections) can be missleading
    genesis Zhangsun: I wonder...
    genesis Zhangsun: we think of time revealing more about our selves
    genesis Zhangsun: we have a self focused focus
    genesis Zhangsun: but what if the knowledge that is being revealed

    Now we get deep

    genesis Zhangsun: doesn't really belong to us
    genesis Zhangsun: is not just telling a story about me, about you
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,maybe we define ourselves in the future from our past
    genesis Zhangsun: what if the totality was an entity
    arabella Ella: could you go on gen ... sounds fascinating ... if it does not belong to us ... then what?
    genesis Zhangsun: with a presence of its own
    Mickorod Renard: I wonder that often,,that we are all part of a collective
    Fefonz Quan knows where Gen is going :)
    Scathach Rhiadra: so you mean an entity separate from us?
    Fefonz Quan: seconds scath question!
    genesis Zhangsun: not separate
    genesis Zhangsun: something beyond separate and together
    genesis Zhangsun: you do Fefonz?
    genesis Zhangsun: I don't :)
    genesis Zhangsun: I was just inspired :)
    Fefonz Quan: it starts with a b...
    arabella Ella: please go on gen
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: yes that could be one notion of Being
    genesis Zhangsun: arabella it is all beyond words and language
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: anything I say won't capture it, its beyond capturing
    arabella Ella: (ehrm ... who have i heard saying that before ... smiles)
    Fefonz Quan: [14:28] genesis Zhangsun: but what if the knowledge that is being revealed [14:29] genesis Zhangsun: doesn't really belong to us
    genesis Zhangsun: and I don't even know if we can fully comprehend it
    Fefonz Quan: the 'belongs' there becomes very subtle
    genesis Zhangsun: but I think to have even a glimpse, a feeling, an insight into it
    genesis Zhangsun: can give you something very tangible as resource to live better
    Mickorod Renard: I like that Gen
    Fefonz Quan: and that's the essence of our PaB experience here Gen, isn't it?
    genesis Zhangsun: :)
    genesis Zhangsun: good place to end

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