2009.07.04 07:00 - Prayer - theme session 3

Wol Euler was guardian and commenter for this session, filling in for Lia.

This was the third in a continuing series of theme sessions relating Islam to Play as Being. The previous sessions were Ways of Knowing and One and Many, 

Sophia and I arrived a little early to plan the session, and the recorder caught us in mid-connivance. We interwove two streams of conversation until the others started arriving.

Wol Euler: I like the idea that the need to pray 5 times a day challenges you to find something to say, something to be thankful for.
sophia Placebo: why did it start 10 mints earlier
Wol Euler: ah :)
Wol Euler: I wrote it that way to avoid missing the beginning of the session.
Wol Euler: It wakes up 10 minutes before the hour, and starts looking for guardians.
Wol Euler: as soon as it finds one, thte session is declared open.
sophia Placebo: ok
sophia Placebo: yeah i like it too when i started thinking of it that way , makes things much easier
Wol Euler: I'm not sure who is GoC for this, Lia asked for a replacement. Maybe I'll just volunteer
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: remembering to start and stop is too tricky, bound to go wrong sometime
sophia Placebo: instead of waiting the blessings , go search for one
Wol Euler: this is good, sophia, the personal history of self-improvement through prayer is nice.
sophia Placebo: i guess no one volunteered , at least no one announce that
sophia Placebo: ^^
Wol Euler: I just claimed it, have to see what happens with the visiting noobs.

We turn half-serious as the hour turns and people start to arrive.

sophia Placebo: hi nymf
Nymf Hathaway: Good day you two :)
Wol Euler: hello nymf
sophia Placebo: hi mick
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Mickorod :)
Wol Euler: hi mick
Mickorod Renard: hiya nymf, wol and sophia
Wol Euler: Mick, I noticed that you and I almost always sit in the same places. Do you do this in RL too? when you go to your usual pub, do you have a usual chair there too?
Mickorod Renard: unfortunately I dont have a favorite pub..but yes, I am a creature of certai habits
Mickorod Renard: here I sit and se you all,,but also can see who arives
Wol Euler: I achieve that by camming out :)
Nymf Hathaway: is using a hud for that
Mickorod Renard: like sitting in restraunts facing the door and window
Wol Euler: yes, I hate having my back to the room
Mickorod Renard: Hi Scath
Nymf Hathaway: Hello again Scathach :)
sophia Placebo: hi scath
Wol Euler: hello scath
Wol Euler: ((well, I should get a cup of tea and otherwise prepare for the session))
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia, nymf, Wol, Mick!
Mickorod Renard: it may be a man thing
Wol Euler: or a paranoia thing.
Mickorod Renard: more likely,,yes
Wol Euler: :)

Sophia was in a new av, a floppy-eared rabbit.

Scathach Rhiadra: Love your Av Sophia:)
sophia Placebo: thank you scath ^^
Nymf Hathaway: yes its sweet :)
Mickorod Renard: cute,,but I prefer the real Sophia
sophia Placebo: anyone have a carrot :))
Nymf Hathaway: Nope but I do have a salad if I am right :)
sophia Placebo: recession
Wol Euler: ah, but what is "real" here, Mick?
Nymf Hathaway: hahahha
sophia Placebo: true sophia is fantasy too
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Nymf Hathaway: depends on where you are Wol
Mickorod Renard: what is real anywhere?
Wol Euler: "usual" perhaps?
Wol Euler: also true!
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Pema :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema
sophia Placebo: hi pema
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema!
Wol Euler: hello pema!
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Wol Euler: I think that is one of the delights of SL, one fo the lessons it has to teach us: that personality ("who we are") is not a feature of our bodies.
Nymf Hathaway: Loves that about sl
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Wol Euler: in RL they get in the way, we cannot help but notice size and shape and colour and smell ...
Mickorod Renard: I enjoy that bit
Wol Euler: perhaps that will carry over into RL, and start educating a generation who really don't care about the way people look?
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Yakuzza
Mickorod Renard: Hi Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
sophia Placebo: hi yak
Wol Euler: hello yakuzza
Pema Pera: Interesting thought, Wol !
Pema Pera: hi Yak!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello yakuzza
Nymf Hathaway: I like that thought as well Wol
Mickorod Renard: In Rl it has its draw backs
Nymf Hathaway: Two years ago we did a project in the forum... everyone was asked to make their avi ugli...by giving it a belly, make it hairless etc... and than walk into secondlife... it was hard to see what happend
Wol Euler smiles. What a great idea. What did happen?
Mickorod Renard: hey,,some of us like hairless
Nymf Hathaway: well everyone got ignored...even in places they usually visited
Wol Euler thinks of Sean Connery and smiles
Nymf Hathaway: smiles at Mickorod, I do as well :)
Mickorod Renard: ty ;)
Nymf Hathaway: the visual stays important even in sl :(
Wol Euler: yes, that is true.
Yakuzza Lethecus: maybe when it's provocating and intentionally ugly
sophia Placebo: hehe
Mickorod Renard: yes,,cute outfit wol
Nymf Hathaway: yes possible as well Yakuzza
Wol Euler: ty mick :)
Mickorod Renard: I think the vanity that sl affords us is what is risky
Yakuzza Lethecus: i mean i am just black it's a standart skin it was a bug in the first place and after i logged in with the wrong secondlife browser and i became colorful again i intentionally made it like the bug before :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: somebody told me that it's not even that easy to have only one shoe
Yakuzza Lethecus: i never tried that much with the editor
Mickorod Renard: I like one shoe

Pema calls us to order.

Pema Pera: Shall we get started with our theme meeting, Sophia and Wol ?
sophia Placebo: sure
Wol Euler: let's do.
Wol Euler: Sophia, will you start off please?
sophia Placebo: ok
sophia Placebo: as the theme is about prayer i wanted to make sure that you see the diffrence btw the whispered prayer and salat
sophia Placebo: i hope you get through the email ,even in glance
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ara
arabella Ella: hiya
Mickorod Renard: ;)
sophia Placebo: today i'm going to tell about my personal journey with salat specifically , that is the one that is mandatory and performed five times a day
sophia Placebo: hi ara
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Arabella
sophia Placebo: what prayer means to me ?
sophia Placebo: first we were told as children that we should pray so Allah would love us and we shouldnt let satan fool us and make us miss a prayer, and that what it was about, we perform the prayers then jump happily here and there ,you've done your job then the question: why i pray became so annoying, though we might asked that at first and we were answered but the prayer became more like a habbit ,a routin, i was looking for an efect for a result for something i can sense
sophia Placebo: though at that time i think was prayer would draw you close to Allah and the more one become so carefull about details and such things one would fel the closeness , hmm and i had this image of white halo or the feeling of completely detach from this world
sophia Placebo: well thats never happen, whuch leads to frustration and thw why iam not worthy
sophia Placebo: then prayer has a meaning of purifcation, the more you are pure the more halo feeling you would got, and the more halo feeling you got the better you see and more purness you become so i started to develop self, stop lies, stop talking behind poeple backs and so on
sophia Placebo: with time prayer becomes like an alarm, when you are angry at someone and really thinking to harm him/her, and it is a prayer time, you would think btw your self befor performing salat how pointless it is, you are standing asking for guidance and mercy but at the same time planning to harm someone so you just stop, calm, try to distracts those ideas and start praying
sophia Placebo: prayer then become like a shelter, daily one that you just stop all your worries, the external one and instead start self review about how you treat poeple or solve problems, did i went right did i went wrong? there is no escape and you cant hide yourself from Allah so better not to fool oneself
sophia Placebo: the shelter is at the same time a chance and a challange a chance to self review a chance to calm but also a chance to talk to someone when you really in distress, you just find in salat some calamity or chance to stop doing something you werent aware that you have done all the time, you stand there and say please God forgive me and guid me and give me the power to change it
sophia Placebo: the routine nature of salat is a challange: everyday obstacles usually dominate our thinking, the challange is to not let them dominate for 5 mints five times a day. as much easy as it looks but it is not
sophia Placebo: but the routin nature is a chance too: chance to find something during your day to thank God for, glory and praise him for or something to ask for forgiveness and then the routin words and acts have new meaning and more stronger meaning day after day
sophia Placebo: ps: calmness im talking about is not as strong as the one after smoking a cigar or drinking a wine or drugs or anything of that sort it is so fine feeling, but dosne vanish, it persist and you build upon it. end.
Wol Euler smiles. thank you, sophia.
Wol Euler: I like the idea that the need to pray 5 times a day challenges you to find something to say, something to be thankful for. A reason to be grateful
Wol Euler: I'm curious about the difference between two kinds of prayer, that you made explicit.
Wol Euler: There is the routine prayer with a fixed form or words, that is repeated regularly. This seems to be like "sweeping the path", clearing away the weeds that might grow betwen you and perceiving God
Wol Euler: but when you also talked about considering what you had done or might do, reviewing where you stand today, that seems to be quite a different kind of "prayer"
Wol Euler: when we met earlier to discuss what to say, you named these kinds of prayer as Dua'a and Salat
Wol Euler: where Salat is the regular prayer, the standard form of words, five times a day
Wol Euler: and Dua'a is "the whispered prayer" as you called it :)
Wol Euler: which is personal and self-examining
Wol Euler: could you tell us a little more about the difference?
sophia Placebo: well , it is a diffrence in faith strenghth thing as explained islamically , to make it clear , if you wish to be slim is not like thinking serously about it and is not like planning to it and is not like taking a physicall step towards it , what motivates you to take the physical steps is much stronger than the one that makes you wish
sophia Placebo: the inner has manfested on the outer

The half-hour minute bell and the arrival of a few latecomers coincide with the end of our presentation.

Wol Euler: well, sophia and I seem to be done, so the floor is open :)
Pema Pera: I just want to thank you, Sophia, for your heartfelt expressions in sharing with us what prayer means for you -- it is not easy to share such aspects in a group; I really appreciate it!
sophia Placebo: my pleasure
arabella Ella: yes it is extremely interesting and i think for those of us who were raised in the spirit of 'prayer' i think i can identify with a great deal of what you said
arabella Ella: there are certainly many similarities
Wol Euler nods
arabella Ella: but you expressed them so nicely too
sophia Placebo: ^^
arabella Ella: is there a theological reason for having times for prayer five times a day?
arabella Ella: some religious orders in christianity have that system too
sophia Placebo: not a one that we know
sophia Placebo: it was 50
Wol Euler: wow!
arabella Ella: you mean 50 times a day?
sophia Placebo: then prophet asked Allah to makes them less
sophia Placebo: yes 50 per day
arabella Ella: oh
Wol Euler: what are the times, sophia?
Pema Pera: (50 times is more like PaB, if you do them 12 and a half hours a day :-)
sophia Placebo: at dawn befor sun raising , at mid day , at afternoon which is after the mid day by hour and a half i think
sophia Placebo: at sunset and then in evning that is after sunset by maybe an hour
Hana Furlough: and everyone would participate?
arabella Ella: is there any connection between these five times for prayers and going to a mosque?
sophia Placebo: at the beginning at the end or working day and in the middle
Wol Euler: hello kiremimi
sophia Placebo: hana it is a mandatory one
arabella Ella: Hiya Kiremimi
Pema Pera: Hi Kire!
Kiremimi Tigerpaw: hello wol
sophia Placebo: ara yes , all mosques should have five times a day prayer being held there
Hana Furlough: hi kiremimi
Wol Euler: yes, good question.. When we were talking earlier, you called Salat " prayer with actions"
sophia Placebo: hi kiremimi
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Kiremimi
Nymf Hathaway: Hello Kiremimi
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Kiremimi
Kiremimi Tigerpaw: Hi, sophia
Kiremimi Tigerpaw: Hi, Nymf
Wol Euler: by "action", did you mean prostrations in the Mosque?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Kiremimi
Mickorod Renard: it was destiny I sat here
sophia Placebo: i meant the actions of salat it self , we stand , then kneel then put our forehead on the ground
sophia Placebo: participating in mosques is recommended
sophia Placebo: in sunni islam it is a must , in shia islam it is not
sophia Placebo: praying in a mosque is called jama'ah ie praying all togather moveing at one time
Wol Euler: aah, ty.
arabella Ella: does praying in a mosque together give you more of what you called a 'halo' by which i think you meant 'holiness'?
Nymf Hathaway: slips away quietly
sophia Placebo: halo i think i meant this white cloude that tv and some children boks put around a good person
sophia Placebo: bye nymf
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
arabella Ella nods
sophia Placebo: it gives you the sense of unity actually
arabella Ella: Wol seems to me to have a halo right now as the remained a cloud halo for me today :)
Wol Euler: :)
Wol Euler: ah, sorry, you should hve said.
arabella Ella: :)
arabella Ella: no worries
arabella Ella: how are you fixing it Wol the cloud has disappeared and only your name is there and just a 'breath' now
Wol Euler: oh dear.
Mickorod Renard: wol looks good to me
Wol Euler: talk amongst yourselves for a moment
SophiaSharon Larnia: me too
arabella Ella: ok
arabella Ella: so dont worry Wol I seem to be the only one to see your halo today
Wol Euler: that should do it
arabella Ella: yes!
Wol Euler: so, um, as we were saying...
Scathach Rhiadra: :)

About mosques and marriages.

arabella Ella: sophia ... i expect the mosques have other functions too dont they not just for the five times a day prayers?
sophia Placebo: they do
sophia Placebo: they are basically a community center
arabella Ella: but for example does religious marriage happen in a mosque or not?
sophia Placebo: deaths marriges are announced there
sophia Placebo: lessons and courses are given
sophia Placebo: lectures and events are hold there
sophia Placebo: in the past they were the universities
arabella Ella: oh
sophia Placebo: no marrige is just a contract that is agreed upon btw 2 poeple
sophia Placebo: that usually happened at home
sophia Placebo: or in court
Wol Euler: oh, that is interesting. So it's not a religious ceremony in the community?
sophia Placebo: but they may announce marrige or most importantly divorce there
arabella Ella: and so you do not distinguish between religious marriage and state marriages? (wnat we call civil)
sophia Placebo: well everything is religiouse but not the same way it is in christianity
arabella Ella: but in ways which are more similar than expected sophia :)
Pema Pera: (Pema sneaking out, since it is midnight for him; thanks again, Sophia & Wol and all !)
sophia Placebo: if the conditions are the same there is no diffrence
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pema
Wol Euler: 'night pema, sleep well.
arabella Ella: bye pema
sophia Placebo: bye pema
Scathach Rhiadra: night Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: still in japan ?
Mickorod Renard: nite Pema
Yakuzza Lethecus: night
Hana Furlough: bye pema~
Kiremimi Tigerpaw: good night, all
arabella Ella: bye Kiremimi
Scathach Rhiadra: good night Kiremimi
Wol Euler: 'night kiremimi, nice to see you again
sophia Placebo: bye kiremimi
Mickorod Renard: nite nite Kirem
Hana Furlough: goodnight kiremimi~
Kiremimi Tigerpaw: bye...thanks all
Yakuzza Lethecus: night kir
SophiaSharon Larnia: Night Pema, bye Kiremimi
Mickorod Renard: this was a very interesting sesion
Wol Euler: indeed :)
arabella Ella: another quick question if i may
SophiaSharon Larnia: I wish i wasnt late
sophia Placebo: sure

Friday prayers.

arabella Ella: sophia your important day is what we call friday
sophia Placebo: true
Mickorod Renard: I would like one day,,to see how the division manifested itself,,
arabella Ella: do you have extra prayers or mosque sessions that day like christians have on sundays?
sophia Placebo: not extra but special
Mickorod Renard: between Islam and Christianity
arabella Ella: how do you mean special?
sophia Placebo: jomo'ah prayer or friday prayer
sophia Placebo: it is replacement of the midday prayer
arabella Ella: longer and more elaborate perahps?
sophia Placebo: the midday prayer is 4 cycles of act
sophia Placebo: the jomo'ah prayer is only 2
arabella Ella: ah
Wol Euler: oh, so it's actually shorter than usual?
sophia Placebo: but befor the prayer there are 2 speeches
Wol Euler: aaah
sophia Placebo: one to glory allah
sophia Placebo: the second to adress muslims affairs
arabella Ella: by who?
sophia Placebo: the imam
arabella Ella: ok
arabella Ella: and is it the imam too who speaks from the minaret?
arabella Ella: and is that a reminder to pray?
sophia Placebo: no thats moa'then
arabella Ella: excuse my ignorance :)
sophia Placebo: it is the call to prayer
arabella Ella: ok ty
sophia Placebo: no worries ara
arabella Ella: :)

Does everything stop?

Hana Furlough: what is it like to have everyone praying five times a day?
sophia Placebo: hmm what do you mean ?
Hana Furlough: well, i guess in other secular societies there is no time where everyone stops together and remembers something higher
Wol Euler: the closest in modern Germany is probably watching the 8:15pm news
Hana Furlough: lol exactly
Yakuzza Lethecus: lol
sophia Placebo: well i havent been to non muslim country befor
Yakuzza Lethecus: i live on a village here it's still more popular to visit a church at least once a week, even when i don't do that
sophia Placebo: though turkey considered secular but you can find mosques there too easly
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Wol Euler: what do shopkeepers do, for example? Do they close their stores during those times?
Hana Furlough: does everyone have a similar experience of prayer?
sophia Placebo: in saudi arabia it is mandatory - yeah i know many poeple just dont like it , they close them for lenghthy periods
arabella Ella: i remember visiting karachi in pakistan some years back and everyone would stop to pray at certain times regardless of where they were
sophia Placebo: but in other countries yes they close them or 2 poeple make a shift during that
arabella Ella: and in malaysia where i was last week the universities and hotels and shopping centres all have prayer roomms for same purpose but in malaysia people choose to pray or not
sophia Placebo: saudi and maldive islands , the stores are closed
sophia Placebo: ooh ara you reminds me of you tube vedio
arabella Ella: yes?
sophia Placebo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pg4Z9...eature=related
Hana Furlough: i should get going
arabella Ella: interesting sophia thanks
sophia Placebo: bye hana
Hana Furlough: thanks for chatting everyone
Hana Furlough: bye~
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes Sophia thank you :)
sophia Placebo: yw ara
Wol Euler watches and laughs out loud at the scuba diver prostrating himself on teh sea floor.
Wol Euler: bye hana, take care
arabella Ella: bye hana and sophia sharon
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Hana
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye
sophia Placebo: hehe me too wol
Wol Euler: bye ara
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Hana, sophiaSharon
Mickorod Renard: bye hana
sophia Placebo: you welcome sophia
Mickorod Renard: bye sophi shaz
arabella Ella: i mmust go too
sophia Placebo: bye ara
Mickorod Renard: ok guys,,must go,,thanks very much Sophia and Wol
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye ara
arabella Ella: thanks sophia very very interesting :)
sophia Placebo: bye mick
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ara, Mick
Wol Euler: bye ara, bye mick. enjoy your satudays
sophia Placebo: you welcome
Mickorod Renard: bye,,peace be with you
sophia Placebo: peace with you mick
Wol Euler: bye yakuzza, take care
sophia Placebo: bye yak
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Yakuzza
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye
Wol Euler: I was flipping through the wikipedia during hte last pauses, checking on various words and how they overlap
Wol Euler: worship, prayer, devotion, supplication ...
sophia Placebo nods
Wol Euler: wikipedia on prayer: "Various spiritual traditions offer a wide variety of devotional acts. There are morning and evening prayers, graces said over meals, and reverent physical gestures. Some Christians bow their heads and fold their hands. Some Native Americans regard dancing as a form of prayer. Some Sufis whirl. Hindus chant mantras. Orthodox Jews sway their bodies back and forth and Muslims kneel and prostrate as seen on the right. Quakers keep silent."
Scathach Rhiadra: that was a beautiful video:)
sophia Placebo: :)
Wol Euler: yes, thank you very much.
Scathach Rhiadra: to see prayer such an integral part of all life
sophia Placebo: intersting wol
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go, thank you Sophia and Wol for a great presentation:)
Wol Euler smiles.
sophia Placebo: thank you scath bye :)
Wol Euler: bye scath, enjoy the day.
Wol Euler: and thank you sophia, that was another great session!
Scathach Rhiadra: _/\_
sophia Placebo: my pleasure wol
Wol Euler smiles
Wol Euler: I hope you are enjoying these sessions too, I hope it isn't a burden?
sophia Placebo: not at all
Wol Euler: good :)
sophia Placebo: ^^
sophia Placebo: g2g too see you later
Wol Euler: bye for now, sophia, take care