2009.07.10 19:00 - Appreciating bad things

The Guardian for this meeting was Dakini Rhode. The comments are by Dakini Rhode.

Pila, Resting, and I were chatting about the weather when Pema joined us.

Dakini Rhode: hi there Pema!
Pema Pera: Hi Dakini, Pila, Thor!
Pila Mulligan: konnichi ha Pema-san
Dakini Rhode: Pema where in the world are you?
Pema Pera: in Tokyo right now
Dakini Rhode: good morning :-)
Pema Pera: can't stay very long, lunch coming up in a different part of Tokyo, will have to take the subway soon
Pema Pera: yes, it's 11 am here :)
Resting Thor: sounds like a real adventure
Dakini Rhode: want to drop a topic on us?
Pema Pera: some day there will be internet on the subway . . . .
Pila Mulligan: how's the weather in Tokyo?
Resting Thor: no wifi?
--BELL--
Pema Pera: a topic? the weather? warm, but a bit humid. But I guess you were thinking about a different topic? How about to viewing the world as given though all that is, all that appears, in appreciation, to come back to an old favorite?
Dakini Rhode: lol the weather has been our topic :-)
Pila Mulligan: earlier :)
Pila Mulligan: but just as in 'how are you' rather than topic topic

Pema presents his topic and his dilemma..

Pema Pera: lately I've had several conversations with different people about how to appreciate "bad" things, unpleasant or worse
Pema Pera: it's so hard to find the right angle there
Pila Mulligan: unfavorable conditions as the Chinese might say
Resting Thor: all gifts from an enlightened being to us :)
Pema Pera: it's easy if someone has a particular tradition, Christian or Buddhist or Islam, whatever: you can then simply refer to that, yes, indeed, Thor
Dakini Rhode: it's tricky, trying to identify things as 'good" or "bad"
Resting Thor: hurts bad....pleasant good
Resting Thor: hehe
Pema Pera: but how do you start a conversation on that topic with someone without such a tradition?
Pila Mulligan: luck :)
Pema Pera: starting with daily life, where clearly some things are a lot more pleasant than others :)
Pila Mulligan: do you have good fortune today?
Resting Thor: why would you bother at all?
Resting Thor: then go from the answer forward
Pila Mulligan: well, suppose someone is having a bummer of a day and you want to help them see it in context
Resting Thor: to make them feel better?
Pema Pera: when I see people suffering and complaining, it would be nice to share with them the simple trick of appreciating everything as is
Resting Thor: to reduce their suffering?
Resting Thor: in the future ...or in the now?
Pema Pera: to show them there is a way for them to make themselves feel better, yes, reduce suffering
Pema Pera: both
Dakini Rhode: it helps if they have a philosophical bent
Resting Thor: two different questions perhaps...now vs. the future
Pema Pera: without trying to convert them to Buddhism, say
Pila Mulligan: and there are also often practical ideas for certain situations
Dakini Rhode: lately i've been playing with "I am here. It is enough"
Pema Pera: that's a great start, Dakini!
Dakini Rhode: it doesn't require high philosphy
Resting Thor: i think a lot of people drink
Pila Mulligan: sometimes people have a simple opportunity to improve their situation, but fail to see it
Resting Thor: to distract or medicate their current suffering
Resting Thor: instead of using a perspective shift
Resting Thor: doesn't help the future state
Dakini Rhode: simple presence and simple appreciation
Resting Thor: makes them feel better about the now
Pema Pera: yes, but how to help them to shift perspective, without trying to "sell" a particular tradition/religion, Thor?
Resting Thor: without a value system of any sort?
Pema Pera: yes, without system!
Pila Mulligan: consider the person whose habit is to get out of bed at the last possible minute, rusch through their routine, race to the bus stop with pounding heart and just barely make it
Pema Pera: directly, humanly, presently
Pila Mulligan: what is that person missing?
Dakini Rhode: i would suggest your own presence being in a place of presence could be contagious
Dakini Rhode: that reads sort of weird
Pema Pera: yes, that would be most direct, Dakini
Dakini Rhode: so if i fully embrace "I am here. It is enough" then I'm able to be fully present with the other -- and that in itself is helpful
Pema Pera: yes, I'm sure
Resting Thor: so a philosophical person with some suffering but not in severe pain then?
Dakini Rhode: not to try to change them or convert them... but to meet them where they are, and share even if they're suffering
Pema Pera: but then when they ask "how do you manage to do that", there is the question what to say without sounding like converting
Dakini Rhode: maybe even a person in severe pain who isn't philosophical...
Resting Thor: but they are still rational and communicating ?
Dakini Rhode: hmmmm
Dakini Rhode: how do you do that?
Resting Thor: maybe just focus on mild mental anguish ?
Resting Thor: depressed etc?
Resting Thor: not suicidal tho
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: the how do you do that question may involve something really hidden form them, but the asking of it may show that they are approaching a discovery of their onw that will be helpful for them
Resting Thor: i'd call running to the bus a more or less neutral condition in the specturm of suffering
Resting Thor: not suffering really
Pila Mulligan: yes, but unecessary stress, Resting
Resting Thor: or a pleasant jog
Pila Mulligan: :)
Resting Thor: stress is not necessarily suffering either
Resting Thor: but we can talk about stress instead
Pila Mulligan: no, but it can be a bummer
Resting Thor: if you want
Resting Thor: or fun
Pema Pera: yes, Pila, the key is for themselves to discover it, and you can only hint at that.
Pema Pera: As Dakini said, the base has to be non-verbal, starting with presence. Then what you say has to flow naturally from the situation. Even so, it's not easy. When you yourself have learned to "taste" the liberation of "just being present" and someone asks how you can appreciate illness, say, you can point on a relative level to various things.
Pema Pera: For example, you can say that once you have been ill yourself you will understand and appreciate others' illnesses better. But that's only relative, and doesn't really communicate the "taste" of appreciation.
Pema Pera: It seems there is no simple way to communicate the real essence of "appreciation of presence" -- that's probably why we have to sit with it, each individually, until it presents itself.
Pila Mulligan: but among the healing arts there are subtle things that can be done to help someone wihtout their even realizing it is being done
Resting Thor: so just to be clear ....you are proposing this for changing someone's perspective on their suffering?
Pila Mulligan: and some of the same unseen mehtods may help someone open their own doors to perception
Pema Pera: yes, Thor, that is one way to put it -- or you could say to help someone smile and relax and just see that there fundamentally are no problems
Pema Pera: yes, Pila, definitely, so that would be the non-verbal path
Dakini Rhode: I'm wondering what it is that causes us to appreciate presence
Pema Pera: but still, if they ask questions, it is nice to answer something :-)
Pila Mulligan: Zen like answers :)
Dakini Rhode: Clearly it is something we appreciate
Resting Thor: or what range of conditions would allow us to appreciate presence
Resting Thor: ?
Resting Thor: certainly many unfortunate situations where it is unlikely
Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
Pema Pera: Hi Eos!
Dakini Rhode: hello Eos
Eos Amaterasu: HI Pila, Pema, Dakini, Resting
Resting Thor: eg. too much pain or pleasure or insufficient mental faculities
Pema Pera: Appreciating presence seems to fundamental in all traditions I know of, that you would think that it could be addressed in a tradition-independent way -- but perhaps you do need a tradition, any tradition, to find a way to point it out
Pema Pera: *so fundamental
Dakini Rhode: I've been exposed to some attempts to point it out in nontraditional ways, not sure if I would exactly call them tradition-independent though
Pila Mulligan: in cases I've seen, the perosn is not in a situaiton to relate to ultimate realizations, such as there fundamentally are no problems -- when they are in too much distress for that conversation
Dakini Rhode: I think it can be done, the crux of the matter though is that i think it's experiential
Pila Mulligan: yo need to work up to iy
Pila Mulligan: it*
Dakini Rhode: you need to offer people the experience
Dakini Rhode: their own experience
Pila Mulligan: Eos, this began with Perm's comment on how to help people appreciate "bad" things, unpleasant or worse
Pema Pera: yes, Pila, it may not work in distressed situations, but that again, in extremely distressing situations the urgency of that situation can also fire someone up -- I guess each situation is unique
Pila Mulligan: yes, unique is part of it
Pila Mulligan: but there is a common ground it seems in that psectrum
Pila Mulligan: spectrum*
Pema Pera: well, time for me to appreciate my subway ride :-)
Pila Mulligan: of expereince
Pila Mulligan: don't get caught in the rate race :)
Pema Pera: thanks for a great conversation, many interesting angles!
Resting Thor: enjoy your subterranien adventure
Pema Pera: ciao
Dakini Rhode: ty Pema, please do appreciate :-)
Pila Mulligan: bye
Eos Amaterasu: ciao!
Dakini Rhode: hmmm now if my 401K could do that
Pila Mulligan: doe sit need healing?
Dakini Rhode: how are you Eos?
Resting Thor: just tell yourself its good to have less in your 401k
Eos Amaterasu: Fine... late to this game, delayed by others :-)
Resting Thor: haha
--BELL--
Dakini Rhode: good question Pila i would have to answer no
Pila Mulligan: ah, nice then Dakini -- I've heard some woeful tales there recently
Dakini Rhode: i've observed that the woeful situations sometimes make the best stories
Pila Mulligan: the drama of life
Pila Mulligan: how close it is to the dharma
Dakini Rhode: the dharma of life?
Pila Mulligan: one of those work similarities that teases thought
Pila Mulligan: word*
Eos Amaterasu: it is traditionally said (among buddhists) that good situations are harder to relate to than bad
Eos Amaterasu: the bad can more easily wake you up
Pila Mulligan: maybe the goods one invovle omr eambiguity Eos
Dakini Rhode: i'm wondering whether "good" situations lull us to sleep
Eos Amaterasu: I think that's part of it.... the "god realm", so to speak
Dakini Rhode: sort of no perceived need to change anything since things seem fine
Pila Mulligan: 'they take their ease in comfortable surroundings' -- that is actually a perjorative from an old Chinese text
Eos Amaterasu: it's kind of the problem with answers
Eos Amaterasu: they can stop your questioning
Eos Amaterasu: recognizing the presence of appearance in bad situations - was that the question?
Pila Mulligan: kind of
Dakini Rhode: scrolling back...
Pila Mulligan: maybe how to help someint in a bad situation reach that end
Eos Amaterasu: can u say more, Pila?
Dakini Rhode: [19:16] Pema Pera: a topic? the weather? warm, but a bit humid. But I guess you were thinking about a different topic? How about to viewing the world as given though all that is, all that appears, in appreciation, to come back to an old favorite? [19:17] Dakini Rhode: lol the weather has been our topic :-) [19:17] Pila Mulligan: earlier :) [19:17] Pila Mulligan: but just as in 'how are you' rather than topic topic [19:17] Pema Pera: lately I've had several conversations with different people about how to appreciate "bad" things, unpleasant or worse [19:18] Pema Pera: it's so hard to find the right angle there
Pila Mulligan: hmm
Eos Amaterasu: Jerry Garcia once said he like to get into trouble, cause then he could work his way into and out of it
Eos Amaterasu: like*
Dakini Rhode: :-)
Eos Amaterasu: liked**
Eos Amaterasu: I think sometimes you realize you can't hold on
Eos Amaterasu: painful as it might be
Eos Amaterasu: and so you are let go in spite of yourself
Eos Amaterasu notes phrases arrriving out of order
Pila Mulligan: one of the wonders of SL :)
Dakini Rhode: packet lag :-)
Eos Amaterasu: conversation salad
Pila Mulligan: in my expereince, at my age (over 60) this type of situation seems to omst rgeularly arise in terms of helping people with death
Dakini Rhode: well i just erased a lot
Pila Mulligan: so many people see death as 'bad'
Dakini Rhode: ah
Eos Amaterasu: appreciating the presence of disappearance :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
--BELL--
Dakini Rhode: i wonder whether it is death one would appreciate, or presence?
Pila Mulligan: to generalize, and in keeping with your comments Eos and Dakini, I'd say that usually it is the sorrow of disappearance in death that most often causes people pain
Eos Amaterasu: death is probably as evanescent as life
Eos Amaterasu: I guess the question is how to include the dying process in the ensemble of one's living, and appreciating once's presence, and arc of presence, here
Eos Amaterasu: one's*
Pila Mulligan: or simply appreciating death
Pila Mulligan: but that is a new topic
Eos Amaterasu: hmmm... when do you do that?
Pila Mulligan: any time
Eos Amaterasu: vs appreciating dying
Eos Amaterasu: Do you appreciate it now?
Pila Mulligan: sure
Pila Mulligan: i am dying now because i am alive
Pila Mulligan: literally
Pila Mulligan: not a problem
Eos Amaterasu: INdeed
Eos Amaterasu: but that's a big appreciation, neh?
Pila Mulligan: isn't all one big appreciation?
Resting Thor: very difficult to have a calm philosophical conversation with someone near death
Pila Mulligan: au contraire Resting, I havd had some of the best at that time
Resting Thor: that is a very fortunate situation :)
Dakini Rhode: do any of us know how near death we are?
Pila Mulligan: it is the most poignant of times
Pila Mulligan: usually wiht older people tough, I appreciate how your comment would apply in some situations
Resting Thor: best for you or them?
Pila Mulligan: best for both
Pila Mulligan: it seemed
Pila Mulligan: there is something profound about death
Eos Amaterasu: no kidding
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Resting Thor: as well as painful, fearful, emotional, stressful
Pila Mulligan: that profundity is a helpful part of life
Dakini Rhode: :-)
Pila Mulligan: life also can be painful, fearful, emotional and stressful
Eos Amaterasu: Yes, Resting, that's why it's usefule to practice dying while living
Resting Thor: my original point almost :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, I saw that too
Pila Mulligan: but what gives life profucnity?
Pila Mulligan: profundity?
Eos Amaterasu: In a way the 9 secs can be seen or experienced as a little death
Pila Mulligan: genuineness
Dakini Rhode: how do you practice dying, Eos?
Dakini Rhode: or what is it that you allow to die?
Eos Amaterasu: by noticing how little deaths happen all the time, in my own experience
Eos Amaterasu: someting is allowed to let go, end
Resting Thor: we can agree its a useful concept without going into the different ways of practicing death
Eos Amaterasu: that can sometimes happen at the end of a thought
Eos Amaterasu: or when an emotion suddenly for a second drops
Eos Amaterasu: and you find yourself embarrasedly trying to recreate it
Eos Amaterasu: something like that
Eos Amaterasu: I'm already as full of holes as the Albert Hall
Dakini Rhode: i notice that there are energies of growth and energies of decay, and at a certain point the energies of decay seem to overtake the energies of growth... and it's somewhat distressing to realize that creaky knee means the energies of decay are proceeding
Pila Mulligan: entropy :) ?
Dakini Rhode: reaching for the dict.
Pila Mulligan: Second Law of Thermodynamics isn't it
Eos Amaterasu: death happens along with lots of birth
Resting Thor: waking
Resting Thor: ?
Eos Amaterasu: like the scene in the Godfather where's he's in the garden about to die just playing with a child
Eos Amaterasu: yes, Thor, I think waking can be encouraged there
Eos Amaterasu: (you have nothing to lose :-)
Eos Amaterasu: or you've already lost everything
Resting Thor: beginning anything is like waking in a way
--BELL--
Pila Mulligan: now Eose this brings to mind my appreciation of your take on life before birth :)
Dakini Rhode: well realizing you've lost it all and not clinging to a fantasy that you haven't... has got to be key
Eos Amaterasu: Pila, I think that (realizing there's as big a question about before birth as about after death) puts things, including death, in perspective
Eos Amaterasu: it can be a bigger appreciation
Pila Mulligan: 6/16/09 -- Funny that we think more about what happens after death than we do about what happens before birth :-)
Pila Mulligan: i agree Eos
Eos Amaterasu: but the road to it can be rough - it's hard to really let go
Pila Mulligan: yes fear is a kind of paralysis
Resting Thor: i have to practice my state changes now....zzzzzz
Resting Thor: byeeee
Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams
Dakini Rhode: night RT
Eos Amaterasu: Happy Resting
Dakini Rhode: :-)
Dakini Rhode: he appeared to be still here and yet he was gone
Pila Mulligan: my feeling, further along the same lines, Eos, is that birth is much more difficult than death
Pila Mulligan: usually, there are of course expceptions
Dakini Rhode wonders why birth would be more difficult than death
Eos Amaterasu: SL lag zombies, Dakini :-)
Pila Mulligan: the nature of the transiotn, maminly Dakini
Dakini Rhode: from immaterial to material pila?
Pila Mulligan: yes -- there is another old Chiness saying
Pila Mulligan: without a body how could there be misfortune?
Dakini Rhode: well babies always cry
Pila Mulligan: :)
Dakini Rhode: i cried too when i realized i'd messed up and got myself born again
Dakini Rhode: :P
Pila Mulligan: yes, hurbis at the gate, shit afterwards
Dakini Rhode: what a shock
Pila Mulligan: now this persepctive of course is lost on those with no appreciation of the transitory nature of life-death-life-death
Pila Mulligan: so for those reading the caht logs nd shaking their heads, my appreciation of the head shking
Dakini Rhode: lol
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: but just think about it, if it's hard to die, it may be harder to be born
Dakini Rhode: it could be :-)
Dakini Rhode: there seems to be a stage, and i hear it's just a stage of death and there's more to come, but it seems quite wonderful
Pila Mulligan: excuse me, phone call
Eos Amaterasu: What is this stage, Dakini?
Dakini Rhode: i'm not sure Eos, but it seems that at the point of death for many at least there is a sort of ecstasy
Dakini Rhode: but i hear that's not the final state
Dakini Rhode: so now i'm speculating
--BELL--
Eos Amaterasu: could you appreciate the presence of appearance while dying?
Pila Mulligan: back from phone call
Dakini Rhode: Eos I'll have to say it seems likely, and I'll have to see at the time, since not many return to report
Dakini Rhode: so i have precious little actual information to go on
Eos Amaterasu: appreciating presence seems to be appreciating both presence and lack of presence, touching and going
Pila Mulligan: but there is a lot of literature
Pila Mulligan: from the Books of the Dead to modern science
Eos Amaterasu: We can appreciate the absence of solid continuity right now
Dakini Rhode: i took the question, perhaps mistakenly, to be personal --- whether *I* could appreciate this
Pila Mulligan: please eaborate Eos :)
Pila Mulligan: elaborate*
Eos Amaterasu: through appreaciating the presence of sense perceptions
Pila Mulligan: ah, percepions as not solid mass
Eos Amaterasu: and then their change, or absence, or sudden shift
Dakini Rhode: yes, that's true things
Eos Amaterasu: and that can grow bigger and bigger
Dakini Rhode: we actually connect the dots a lot
Eos Amaterasu: mabye to even include my own birth and death
Pila Mulligan: dot dot dot dot :)
Pila Mulligan: dash dash dash :)
Pila Mulligan: funny
Eos Amaterasu: birth and dot
Pila Mulligan: sorry, levity displaces profundity for ammo net
Pila Mulligan: a moment*
Pila Mulligan: Steve is dancing
Dakini Rhode: i liked ammo net
Pila Mulligan: ammo net?
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Dakini Rhode: 20:36] Pila Mulligan: sorry, levity displaces profundity for ammo net
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
Dakini Rhode: hi Steve
Eos Amaterasu: wish I could hear your music, Steve
Pila Mulligan: oh, thanks -- did ont see the typo :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I can give you the LM
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise
Dakini Rhode: hi Paradise
Eos Amaterasu: now Paradise approaches
Dakini Rhode: :-)
Paradise Tennant: hiy pila .. dakini lol eos :))
stevenaia Michinaga: a wild time on friday nights
Eos Amaterasu: (thnx Steve)
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve :))
stevenaia Michinaga: Hi, just got here too
Paradise Tennant: :))
Paradise Tennant: how is the beach :)
Dakini Rhode: I must be off... please feel free to continue chatting and if you solve the questions of life and death please do send me the chat log