2009.07.20 13:00 - Where is Aware?

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Pila Mulligan, sitting in for Tarmel and Stim. The comments are by Pila Mulligan.

    Tarmel had answered Stim's request to serve as a replacement Guardian for this session, but then her late work night had caused the job to become something of a burden.

    Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza and Bert
    Eliza Madrigal: Jo Pila, Bertam
    Bertram Jacobus: hi pila, eliza :-)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Tarmel
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Tarmel
    Bertram Jacobus: hello tarmel :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: HI everybody!
    Pila Mulligan: thank you for taking Stim's place as guardian, Tarmel -- just before you did I had IMed him with an offer to do so, but you made it unnecessary :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fefonz :)
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fefonz :-)
    Tarmel Udimo: oh, Pila, I would be more than happy if you do:)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Tarmel, Pila, Eliza, Bertrum
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Fefonz
    Pila Mulligan: do you have a scheduling situation, Tarmel -- otherwise please continue :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hello Gaya :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Gaya!
    Bertram Jacobus: hello gaya :-)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
    Tarmel Udimo: Hi Gaya
    Gaya Ethaniel: Nice to see you again :)
    Tarmel Udimo: yes nice to see everyone
    Tarmel Udimo: I was just responding to Pila
    Tarmel Udimo: (I was working very late and its very early here, so Pila if you can take over I may crawl back to bed)
    Pila Mulligan: ok, please have a nice rest
    Pila Mulligan: my pleasure
    Gaya Ethaniel: Good rest Tarmel. See you soon :)
    Fefonz Quan: sleep well Tarmel
    Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you for a moment Tarmel :) Rest well
    Tarmel Udimo: ty very much, sorry to leave you lovely folks, have a good one
    Pila Mulligan: 6 am in the land of Oz
    Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams
    Tarmel Udimo: nods
    Fox arrived as Tarmel departed, then Yakuzza arrived a bit later, after we started looking for a topic

    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fox :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fox, nice to see you again
    Fox Monacular: hello everyone
    Pila Mulligan: hi Fox
    Bertram Jacobus: hy fox :-)
    Fefonz Quan: hello Fox
    Fox Monacular: nice to see you too, Eliza
    Pila Mulligan: Fox I think you've been here before, haven't you?
    Fox Monacular: yes, a couple of times
    Pila Mulligan: so you're familiar with the recording/posting?
    Bertram Jacobus: i´m quite new at this place, it´s only my second time here, and my english is not native. so sorry for my mistakes, please ...
    Fox Monacular: yes, definitely
    Eliza Madrigal: No worries at all, Bertram!
    Pila Mulligan: ok Bert, do you know about the chat logs being recorded and posted on the website?
    Bertram Jacobus: yes. ty. that´s okay and wonderful :-)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Pila Mulligan: thank you
    Bertram Jacobus: a graet and big project i guess ...
    Bertram Jacobus: great
    Pila Mulligan: last week at a workshop hosted by Stim Morane there was some interest in using this session (usually also hosted by Stim) to continue the workshop topics
    Pila Mulligan: so we can have any topic, if you wish, or pick up with those workshop ideas
    Bertram Jacobus: may i ask, which are the workshop ideas ?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think 'interconnectedness' has been discussed before many times at PaB for example.
    Eliza Madrigal: I like the idea of discussing some of the underlying workshop issues, yes like interconnectedness
    Gaya Ethaniel: [though not in the context of codependent arising]
    Eliza Madrigal: yes :)
    Pila Mulligan: Stim has been doing several months now on various approaches to reality from contemplative traditions
    Pila Mulligan: his skill level is too great to try to duplicate it here :)
    Fefonz Quan nods :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'd be very interested to hear what a physicist may think of this idea for example [winks at Fefonz]
    Pila Mulligan: but one of the topics recently has been the Buddhist doctrines of codependent arising
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Fefonz Quan: Hey Yaku :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Yakuzza
    Bertram Jacobus: hey yakuzza :-)
    Fox Monacular: hey again Yakuzza
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey :)
    Pila Mulligan: here is the wiki for Stim's workhsop, with logs from January to last week -- http://ways-of-knowing.wik.is/
    Pila Mulligan: Gaya has just asked Fefonz to take on interconnecteness from a physics science viewpoint :)
    Fefonz Quan is not sure how can that be done :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh sorry for being cheeky. I'm not demanding Fefonz, just curious.
    Pila Mulligan: saved by the bell :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Bertram Jacobus: there are 12 kind of aspects of the buddhistic doctrines of codependent arising - and i never understood them in whole until now ....
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Bert, that is what Stim has been explaining also
    Pila Mulligan: please say more if you wish

    As we somewhat settle on interconnectedness as a topic (it also becomes the degree of interconnectedness between science and contemplative traditions) Jiraiya Teskat arrives (Jiraiya is an old friend from the former Nymf's Forum), and Hana Furlough arrives soon thereafter

    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey jiraiya
    Jiraiya Teskat: hello
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Jiraiya :)
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry - not about this topic, only, may be ... that i would be very interested in understanding it once ... but now - here is also the topic of interconnectedness as it seems (?) ...
    Fefonz Quan: hi jiraija
    Pila Mulligan: hi jiraiya
    Fox Monacular: hi jiraiya
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Jiraiya
    Bertram Jacobus: hello jiraya :-)
    Pila Mulligan: we have been taking interconnectedness as the easier topic
    Bertram Jacobus: ok
    Pila Mulligan: it may not even be the same topic, but it seems to be related :)
    Fox Monacular: interconnectedness as in quantum physics?
    Pila Mulligan: I tihnk that may be what Gaya was sugesting
    Fefonz Quan: can you explain that some more?
    Gaya Ethaniel: :)
    Fefonz Quan: (to Fox)
    Pila Mulligan: science seems to almost tease us with ideas that sound just like ideas from old contemplaitve traditions -- e.g., entanglement, mirror neurons -- it may be that they are related or it may just be wishful thinking, I don't know
    Pila Mulligan: but it is interestig
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Fox Monacular: hmmm...
    Fox Monacular: i don't really know much about that
    Eliza Madrigal: Interconnectedness as an idea seems to be a very accessible idea, in discussing the way we live our daily lives with other people.. a paradigm that sees individuals as fundamentally separate from each other/environment brings diff. actions than one that sees others as, in essence, oneself?
    Fox Monacular: yes, that's what I know too, Eliza
    Fefonz Quan: it is interesting to my opinion too, though on the other hand the trial to synchronize those ideas with teh scientific approach can also be very frustrating, so i am not sure it is the optimal way to go
    Pila Mulligan: hello Hana
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Hana :)
    Bertram Jacobus: isn´t the chaos theory from the science view referring to interconectedness ? (it´s really a question - i´m not sure)
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Hana :)
    Hana Furlough: hi everyone
    Bertram Jacobus: hello hana :-)
    Fox Monacular: I think science taking from contemplative traditions can also signify a shift in underlying ontologies
    Fefonz Quan: hello Hanna
    Fox Monacular: hello Hanna
    Gaya Ethaniel: I don't quite get that Fox. Can you please explain?
    Bertram Jacobus: i heard once : there is a possibility to find things out via insight or via research of the outer spheres - but the results are the same in the end - may be so the studies ("inner" and "outer") find now together ? ...
    Fox Monacular: I guess I'm thinkign that science as a discipline has been seen as fairly separate from anything else, especially anything pertaining to religion or philosophy
    Fox Monacular: and now there is more movement towards interdisciplinarity
    Eliza Madrigal nods. Perhaps discoveries turn assumptions on their heads which brings about a new kind of humility and listening.
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
    Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
    Fefonz Quan: somehow i suspect this interdisciplinary term comes from the non-science regime
    Fox Monacular: radical empiricism is now making place for recognizing that there are other sources of knowledge
    Fox Monacular: in a more extended, 'gnosis' kind of way
    Fefonz Quan: what is radical empiricism?
    Fox Monacular: basic assumption that phenomena must be empirically observed
    Fox Monacular: and through experimentation that has to be quantifiable and repeatable we can understand them
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds like classical science
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
    Gaya Ethaniel: That may present limits to investigation of mind and consciousness as these are private and subjective experiences.
    Pila Mulligan: science seems to rely on a similar empirical/intuitive approach as an initial element, prior to proofs, while contemplative traditions did not seem to require proofs beyond personal experience
    Fox Monacular: personal experience can be a proof too
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Fox Monacular: in a phenomenological way
    Pila Mulligan: sufficient for the person at least
    Fox Monacular: in case of buddha - sufficient for the whole humanity!
    Gaya Ethaniel: Sure but is it repeatable in objective [scientific as you described it] way Fox?
    Fox Monacular: i think so, it's one of the main assumptions and requirements of science
    Pila Mulligan: I think Pema has speculated that any genuine merging of these old and new schools is unlikely in the near future, but he seems to think it will probably happen eventually
    Fox Monacular: others should be able to replicate your results, many studies aim at just replication of major findings
    Fefonz Quan: sure, but scientists don't call buddhism science
    Fox Monacular: yes, but there are some initiatives to bring buddhism and science closer together
    Fox Monacular: like Mind and Life institute
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well, I'm not so sure.
    Pila Mulligan: Maharishi Mahesh Yogi's insitituions also work along those lines
    Pila Mulligan: seeking science in traditional practices
    Fox Monacular: In mind and life institute they are starting to talk about contemplative science
    Eliza Madrigal: yes and many studies of contemplative brains at work, right?
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Eliza, that part goes back quite some time
    Fox Monacular: yes, there has been a true explosion of brain scans of meditators
    Fefonz Quan: not sure about explosion, but there sure has been some.
    Eliza Madrigal: they've linked actual physiological changes to meditation, but can't say 'why' exactly
    Pila Mulligan: thinking of the Menninger Institute and Swami Rama, 40 years ago
    Fox Monacular: explosion for real :) every week in my pubmed notifications :)
    Fefonz Quan: though their point was to show the nurological influence of meditation, which is totally within the scientific region
    Bertram Jacobus: sorry, but : "buddhas experiences sufficient for the humanity" ? was this said ? if yes, i would disagree : there are many people for those buddhas teachings are not so ... reliable (?) ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm only aware of Richard Davidson at the University of Wisconsin. Would be interesting if you know more articles available online.
    Fox Monacular: no, they can't say why because nobody has proposed a good model which would truly bring these things together in a meaningful way
    Fox Monacular: although there is the enactive approach
    Fox Monacular: from Varela and Thompson and Noe
    Fefonz Quan: what does it say?
    Fox Monacular: that our minds are not in our brains but rather consciousness can be seen as an interplay between brain, body and environment
    Pila Mulligan: I would agree with that :)
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think that's largely accepted view of consciousness among neuroscientists.
    Gaya Ethaniel: [not sure about the location of the mind though]
    Fox Monacular: no, Gaya, I would disagree
    Bertram Jacobus: may be everywhere gaya ? ...
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm not sure I meant.
    Fox Monacular: neuroscience mostly accept connectionist and computational models
    Fox Monacular: mostly
    Fox Monacular: not all of course
    Gaya Ethaniel: Well Edelman's view on consciousness is just that and he is pretty mainstream.
    Pila Mulligan: to me it is interesting that contemplative traditions paid somewhat more attention to the spine than the cranium -- e.g., chakras, kundalini, accupunture
    Pila Mulligan: so the body's whole sense spectrum was at play
    Pila Mulligan: not just brain stuff
    Gaya Ethaniel: Please say more Pila?
    Fefonz Quan: are you sure Edelman's consciousness ideas are mainstream Gaya?
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think so Fefonz.
    Fox Monacular: I'm afraid I never heard of Edelman
    Gaya Ethaniel: That's me though :)
    Arabella and Mick arrive as the topic settles into where we find awareness (spiced with 'in robots, maybe?')

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arabella
    arabella Ella: Hiya
    Fefonz Quan: Hi Ara
    Fox Monacular: in any case they don't really reference him in papers
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hiya ara :)
    Fox Monacular: Hi Ara
    Bertram Jacobus: hy arabella :-)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Mick
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey mick
    Fox Monacular: Hi Mick
    Mickorod Renard: hiya
    Fefonz Quan: hey Mick
    Pila Mulligan: hi arablela and Mick
    Gaya Ethaniel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Edelman - think he won Nobel Prize as well.
    Eliza Madrigal: Nearly a full circle :))
    Bertram Jacobus: hy mickorod :-)
    arabella Ella: yes i know of gerald edelman read him some years ago
    Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Mick and arabella :)
    Hana Furlough: hi mick and arabella!
    Fox Monacular: neuroscience usually does not disregard body and environment, but usually they talk about these things in terms of input and output on the level of the brain when it concerns consciousness
    Fefonz Quan: i agree with fox. This is a kind of functional definition of consccoiusness, from the little i have read
    Fefonz Quan: and as such, i am not sure it touches teh more fundamental issues we bring up here, than previous research
    Fox Monacular: it's always in the interpretation of the data
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, and regardless of what is intending to be studied, lots of data is collected across many fields,
    Eliza Madrigal: science included
    Eliza Madrigal: which may come into play in ways we don't imagine
    Eliza Madrigal: eventually
    Gaya Ethaniel: I think Elderman's view is that consciousness is not just made up of processes. But I do really need to spend more time reading up in this interesting subject before I can speak more :)
    Fox Monacular: hopefully there are more and more initiatives to enable constructive dialogue
    Eliza Madrigal: yes constructive dialog, and also just people with special interests who may put various disciplines together in imaginative ways and write papers ;-))
    Fox Monacular: definitely, like Varela, Thompson and Roch's book on embodied mind
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to read Varela :)
    Fox Monacular: yes, it's very interesting
    Fox Monacular: he also started mind and life meetings where scientists meet with dalai lama
    Fox Monacular: they do it every year
    Fox Monacular: and sometimes publish transripts
    Fox Monacular: as books
    Bertram Jacobus: do you think, robots will develop conciousness ?
    Fefonz Quan: Thanks Fox, after you mentioned it i managed to locate it on a shelf behind me :)
    Fox Monacular: hope not
    Bertram Jacobus: why fox ? and - what do you THINK ?
    Mickorod Renard: from a purely ignorant position,,i would like to say I worry that we may loose the special notion,,of spiritualness if we unlock the mechanics of the mind and conciousness
    Eliza Madrigal: Ah, was listening to Dalai Lama discussing adding the nervous system as a consideration into buddhist literature...have to respect that flexibility
    Fefonz Quan: i am not sure this question has any meaning Bertrum when we don't know what consciousness is
    Fox Monacular: hmmm... i don't think mind equals brain and that neural connections are all there is to that
    Fox Monacular: thanks, Fefonz
    Jiraiya Teskat: If we consider that the universe is only ruled by logic -no random- Im afraid that robots could develop a consciousness sooner or later
    Fox Monacular: we should hten program them with buddhist philosophy right away
    arabella Ella: I think it all depends on how we define the concept of consciousness ... which could be defined in such a way so as to be in a position to state robots are already conscious
    Fefonz Quan: well, the universe appear to have randomness, and second - how would you know if the robgot is conscious?
    Bertram Jacobus: no meaning ? that´s not my impression : answers can be found from many phenomenons ...
    Mickorod Renard: would robots see their creator as a God?
    Fefonz Quan nods to Ara
    Fox Monacular: meaning is dependent on experience
    Fefonz Quan: Do you Mick?
    Bertram Jacobus: i would "know" it as well as i "know" it from others fefonz
    Mickorod Renard: maybe
    Fox Monacular: what kind of gods?
    Fefonz Quan: that's the issue Bertrum, you don't know it
    Mickorod Renard: thats an issue in itself
    Fox Monacular: i don't see my parents as gods anymore
    Bertram Jacobus: ;o)
    Fefonz Quan: hehe :)
    Jiraiya Teskat: mmmm randomness is for me something to complex too be understood from our "brains" and tools but still obey to logic
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    arabella Ella: meaning is not always dependent on experience ... we can be 'conditioned' into learning certain meanings and interpretations and connotations ... it is more contextual and cultural
    Fox Monacular: there might be order in chaos
    Fox Monacular: yes, arabella, learning is also an experience
    arabella Ella agrees ... if you broaden the meaning of experience ... as there is also rote learning
    Mickorod Renard: I would dread to think on what basis robotic morals would be on..human kind cannot aggree on its own yet
    Mickorod Renard: oops..pardon
    Fox Monacular: yes, Mickorod, exactly, we can program robots to agree on morals
    Fox Monacular: but human brain and mind are not computers
    Eliza Madrigal: I need to get going for now. Thanks for an interesting conversation everyone. :)
    Bertram Jacobus: i mean - the latest stand of technology is, that robots already can differ between "belongs to "me" and "does not belong to "me" (!) ...
    We almost reached a full circle this sesssion, one cushion shy -- now Eliza and Gaya start the departures (and some cushion shifting in search of symmetry takes place)
    Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza, thank you
    Fefonz Quan: good night Eliza )
    arabella Ella: nite Eliza
    Gaya Ethaniel: Me too. Good day/night all :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye eliza
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now :))
    Mickorod Renard: nite eliza
    Pila Mulligan: bye Gaya, see you next time
    arabella Ella: nite Gaya
    Yakuzza Lethecus: gaya
    Mickorod Renard: bye gaya
    Fefonz Quan: bye Gaya

    arabella Ella: well Bertram there is also literature published on robots feeling hungry, feeling love, etc ... but again it all depends on your basic definitions of those terms
    Bertram Jacobus: and especially the ideas of embodyment seem to implify that mind, conciousness and all that develops from a body - which robots definitly have ...
    Fefonz Quan: yes, but a bosy that act in very different ways, time scales, etc.
    Fefonz Quan: body*
    Mickorod Renard: the trouble programming robots is that it will be down to humans to do the first one
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Fefonz Quan: and human also created computer viruses, so..
    arabella Ella: there is an interesting author alexander mcClintock published by Ashgate if you are interested Bertram
    Mickorod Renard: so will we create monsters
    Bertram Jacobus: ty for the hint arabella
    arabella Ella: he goes into feeling heat ... which is a whole body sensation ... and other similar examples
    Fox Monacular: we create monsters even among ourselves
    Mickorod Renard: thats the point I was making
    arabella Ella: yes and many humans unfortunately exhibit very moronic behaviour
    Mickorod Renard: I often do
    Bertram Jacobus: but we should aim for better goals i´m convinced ...
    Pila Mulligan: :) Fefonz does symmetry :)
    Fox Monacular: the problem is that we can't agree on what 'better' means
    Fefonz Quan: ;-)
    arabella Ella: we ... they ... are Betram aiming for better goals
    Bertram Jacobus: when we find back to simplicity i think, an agreement is not so hard to find
    Jiraiya Teskat: sure:)
    Fox Monacular: some good goals happen in hockey
    Fefonz Quan couldn't even find agreement between an 8-appaartment building neighboura where he lives
    Bertram Jacobus: lol agree :o)
    Jiraiya Teskat: no need for A.I.
    arabella Ella: :)
    Fox Monacular: AI used to be a fun domain, now it's all about computer science
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,i am off home,,c u all another day,,byeeeeeee
    arabella Ella: fraid i must go now bye everyone!
    Fefonz Quan: night Mick
    Fefonz Quan: nite ara!
    Pila Mulligan: bye arabella and Mick
    Fox Monacular: bye ara and mick
    Bertram Jacobus: bye to the leaving persons ... :-)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeaqh, it was a great session today
    Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Mick and Ara
    Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Yakuza
    Fox Monacular: bye everyone
    Fefonz Quan: Nd Fox
    Pila Mulligan: bye Yakuzza
    Pila Mulligan: and Fox
    Hana Furlough: sorry i had best get back to work
    Pila Mulligan: bye Hana
    Hana Furlough: thanks for letting me join you
    Pila Mulligan: thanks for being here
    Hana Furlough: have a wonderful day!
    Bertram Jacobus: bye hana - have a good time
    Fefonz Quan: you're welcomed Hana
    Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Hana
    Pila Mulligan: more of the symmetry game :)
    Bertram Jacobus: nice
    Pila Mulligan: I think Wol started this
    Pila Mulligan: musical cushions
    Fefonz Quan: if we don't talk interconnectedness, at least we have some fun :)07204.jpg
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: do you suppose interconnectedness has an end point?
    Fefonz Quan: i guess not...
    Bertram Jacobus: i don´t see any beginning or end ...
    Pila Mulligan: it is hard to imagine isn't it
    Fefonz Quan: what do you mean by end point Pila?
    Bertram Jacobus: i find, an end is not easier to imagine
    Pila Mulligan: so it would seem to trasncend time also
    Pila Mulligan: well, Fefonz, an end point as in a place where things are not interconnected
    Pila Mulligan: or a time, for that matter
    Pila Mulligan: inlcuding the singularity
    Fefonz Quan: well, we are not sure yet my house and yours are connected now :)
    Pila Mulligan: as it is called, I think :)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: :) there are some options :0
    Pila Mulligan: Fefonz moved so we are on the cardinal points of the peace symbol peace.jpg
    Bertram Jacobus: singularity ? i have the impression, that´s only a thing in our minds ...
    Pila Mulligan: yes Bert, no doubt it is but it represents time in an ultimate sense
    Fefonz Quan nods to bertrum
    Bertram Jacobus: uh yes. but my position ... is so accentuated ... tht´s too heavy for me :-)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fefonz Quan: as you may know Pila, in radical codependant arising approach, the notion of time itself starts to loose its linear mode
    Pila Mulligan: yes, this of course is beyond my capacity, but the convergence of time and space is an interesting concept
    Fefonz Quan: though from a physical point of view, as for now, they are diverging...
    Pila Mulligan: and isn't the sigularity the hypothetical starting point for that divergence?
    Fefonz Quan: well, as they say, what was was, was was
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: when when when?
    Fefonz Quan: always
    Pila Mulligan: personally, my memory is more based on places than on times
    Pila Mulligan: I recall expereinces by place, in other words
    Fefonz Quan: mine too.
    Jiraiya Teskat: Its mostly based on the strongest feelings you had about what you lived Pila
    Fox, having left a little earlier, returns and the remaining discussion shifts in time to dream awareness

    Pila Mulligan: hi again Fox, welcome back
    Fox Monacular: hi
    Fefonz Quan: i even wrote in our wiki some page about it, claiming that our time perception has to do with places and context, not with 'real' time
    Bertram Jacobus: hello fox again
    Fefonz Quan: hello Fox
    Pila Mulligan: yes, Jiraiya
    Fefonz Quan: even teh colors fit :)
    Pila Mulligan: but mostly those feelings relate to places instead of dates
    Bertram Jacobus: it´s great :-)
    Jiraiya Teskat: sure
    Pila Mulligan: so if this is common, then time seems to be a secondary factor toplace in terms of memory
    Pila Mulligan: now, obviously, the place changes from what it was when I expereinced it
    Fefonz Quan: i think they complement each other - 'what' you remember - are places and event (or their appearances)
    Pila Mulligan: in its own reality
    Fox Monacular: there are also emotional significances to events
    Fefonz Quan: but there is some sense of 'when', or 'how far' to that memory - which hints to teh time perception
    Fefonz Quan: agree with Fox - appearances of feelings, emotions, sensations are also included)
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but there Fefonz the idea seems to me to be more sequence or chronology than chrconoligcal time
    Fefonz Quan: can you rephrase that?
    Fox Monacular: right, how often we get chronology wrong!
    Pila Mulligan: the strong feelings or emotions help etch the memory for sure
    Fox Monacular: one might argue that unemotional memories have low chance of survival
    Pila Mulligan: well, lets take my first airplane ride -- it is a memory, and it has a place in my life's chronology, but it does not have a precise date or time
    Pila Mulligan: in my mmeory
    Bertram Jacobus: thaks for the talk - hope i did not disturb you to much ...
    Fefonz Quan: that sounds true Fox, mostly that memories tht survive are those you visit more foten
    Pila Mulligan: thank you Bert for your contributions, please feel welcome any time
    Fefonz Quan: Thanks Bertram!
    Fox Monacular: right, and perhaps it has something to do with our current version of our autobiography
    Pila Mulligan: bye for now
    Bertram Jacobus: may be all beings be happy ... ty again all
    Fox Monacular: bye Bertram
    Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Bertram
    Fefonz Quan: it also doesn't have precise images and locations i guess Pila. somehow i feel preciseness is not our major faculty
    Pila Mulligan: not mine :)
    Fox Monacular: nope
    Fefonz Quan: (for Pila)
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Pila Mulligan is content with general impressions
    Fox Monacular: there are studies that show that current state of mind greatly influences recall of events and sometimes produces fake memories
    Fefonz Quan nods
    Pila Mulligan: I wonder about fake experiences Fox
    Fox Monacular: there is a classic study, I don't quite remember the exact details but it goes somethign like this...
    Fox Monacular: people were shown pictures of 2 cars colliding
    Fox Monacular: and some time later 1 group was asked to describe 2 cars 'bumping' into each other, and the other group - 2 cars 'smashing' into each other
    Fox Monacular: so the group that was primed to think about 'smashing' described seeing broken glass
    Fox Monacular: which was not there on the picture originally
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: it is certainly common in courtrooms to hear several different descriptions of the same event
    Fox Monacular: yes, exactly
    Fox Monacular: there was a famous case of a famous psychiatrist being accused of rape
    Fox Monacular: only to find out that the victim saw his face on tv while wating in the police station
    Pila Mulligan: so we have expereinces resulting from things that may not be considered real
    Fefonz Quan: like dreams.
    Fox Monacular: yes, it seems to be dependent on our own internal processes
    Fox Monacular: yes!
    Fefonz Quan: i am sure some of the vivid experiences i have are from dreams. mostly i believe i can tell the difference, but who knows?
    Pila Mulligan: now how do we reach a consensus n what is real?
    Fox Monacular: can we really?
    Pila Mulligan: legislation?
    Fox Monacular: agree
    Fefonz Quan: a camera and tape recorder? :)
    Fox Monacular: what about dream camera
    Jiraiya Teskat: what really counts for us is not what is happening itself but what we feel about what is happening.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: feel and think and experience, and also what we pay attention to
    Jiraiya Teskat: sure
    Fox Monacular: i think attention is underestimated
    Pila Mulligan: so the consensus may be whetever gets the most attention
    Fox Monacular: usually people who have the most attention are right :)
    Fefonz Quan: we can still go see if the glass is broken or not
    Fox Monacular: and they get to write legislations
    Fox Monacular: yes, only if we look for it
    Fox Monacular: for example, i'm chatting with you and I can hear my neighbors talk on a balcony
    Pila Mulligan: Fefonz makes the obvious point that in terms of facts like broken glass there is *usually* continuity
    Fox Monacular: really really clearly, but i have no idea what they are saying
    Fefonz Quan: that's what happens with Chinese neighbours :)
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fox Monacular: I agree with Pila, but can you tell me with 100% certaintly what you had for breakfast last tuesday?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Fefonz Quan: it seems obvious, but i think it is important for that discussion Pila
    Pila Mulligan: it is always the same :)
    Pila Mulligan: but that was a coincidence
    Fox Monacular: allright, can you tell me who was the 3d person you saw today?
    Fefonz Quan: i surely can't
    Pila Mulligan: I have not seen them yet :)
    Pila Mulligan: this is a fun game Foix
    Fefonz Quan: yes it is LOL
    Fox Monacular: i like it too
    Pila Mulligan: the idea being that our recollection is incomplete and subjectiuve, I suppose
    Fefonz Quan: Foix sounds like Fois Gras
    Jiraiya Teskat: hehe
    Fox Monacular: haha
    Fefonz Quan had that for lunch on Saturday :)
    Fox Monacular: was it good?
    Fefonz Quan: mmhmmmmm
    Fox Monacular: do you remember how many forks you had :)?
    Fefonz Quan: one, i used the knife
    Fox Monacular: your memory is phenomenal
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Fefonz Quan: was even better 20 years ago :)
    Fefonz Quan: (if i recall) :)
    Jiraiya Teskat: Hypnosis seems to show that memories are stored with an impressive accuracy
    Pila Mulligan: do you suppose lucid dreams can converege seamlessly with waking reality?dream.jpg
    Fox Monacular: I don't think so, Pila, in lucid dream you know you're dreaming
    Fox Monacular: and you have to make an effort to stay in dream-state
    Fox Monacular: it's like the opposite of wake i think
    Fefonz Quan hums:' i never saw a lucid dream, i hope i never see one. but i can tell you right away, i rather see than be one!'
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: although in wake i often make an effort to stay awake
    Fox Monacular: in lucid dream your bodily experience is very different
    Fox Monacular: Fefonz, hypnosis is controvercial... some memories are not really memories it seems
    Pila Mulligan: there is literature (e.g., Carlos Castaneda and Eastern stories) about unreal or magical waking expereinces that seem real or more than real
    Fox Monacular: do you lucid dream, Pila?
    Pila Mulligan: yes
    Fox Monacular: yes, although Castaneda seems to be controversial too...
    Pila Mulligan: yes :)
    Pila Mulligan: but there are similar stories elsewhere
    Fox Monacular: also, what do you mean by 'more than real'?...
    Fox Monacular: definitely
    Fox Monacular: there are also scary sleep paralysis experiences, or religious experiences too
    Pila Mulligan: well, transcendent maybe
    Fefonz Quan: i didn't say anything about hypnosis
    Fox Monacular: yes, I understand
    Jiraiya Teskat: I said...
    Fox Monacular: ouch, sorry about that
    Jiraiya Teskat: np
    Fox Monacular: transitional experiences are the most interesting
    Fox Monacular: they tell us a lot about states on each side
    Pila Mulligan: can you say more, please, Fox
    Fox Monacular: for instance difference between dreaming and wake
    Fox Monacular: we think it's clear
    Fox Monacular: but it's not
    Pila Mulligan: yes, this is the seamless idea from above
    Fox Monacular: wake can intrude into sleep - like in lucid dreams when you know you are dreaming
    Fox Monacular: and dreaming can intrude into wake, like in sleep paralysis halluciations
    Jiraiya Teskat: or hypnosis
    Pila Mulligan: and magic maybe :) ?
    Fox Monacular: i like the idea of enchantment
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: I don't know much about hypnosis, there are some clear similarities but there are also importand differences
    Fox Monacular: like apparent amnesia
    Pila Mulligan: I've had transition state dreams, if I understand what you meant, and they are quite interesting
    Fox Monacular: are you talking about hypnagogic images or lucidity?
    Pila Mulligan: I don't know those definionts :)
    Fox Monacular: hypnagogic images are images you see at sleep onset, as you are falling asleep
    Fefonz Quan: i had a several occasions of states i knew i am dreaming and wnated to wake up.
    Fefonz Quan: on one recent, curiously i didn't know how will my world look like when i wake
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: also late morning REM sleep dreams are most vivid usually, and sometimes you become sort of aware
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Pila Mulligan: well, let me tell you one such transitional expereince
    Pila Mulligan: it was quite some time ago, when I sometimes indulged in recreational non-sobriety
    Pila Mulligan: one moninrg I dreamt at the end of sleeping of two gurus sitting beside each other, looking down at a bug running from them
    Pila Mulligan: then immediately I was awake and the same bug was running across the sheets of my bed
    Pila Mulligan: is that transitonal?
    Fox Monacular: that's cool!
    Pila Mulligan: it was cool :)
    Fox Monacular: I would think that you were sort of waking up but still in the dream, and so you incorporated the bug into your narrative
    Fox Monacular: it happens all the time with sounds
    Pila Mulligan: yes, somehow it was on both sides
    Fox Monacular: often when people are dreaming if you play a particular sound they would incorporate it into the narrative
    Pila Mulligan: the funny thing was that the two gurus were both kind of recoiling going 'eewwe' at the bug
    Fox Monacular: :))
    Fox Monacular: or maybe the bug was the messenger from the dreamland
    Pila Mulligan: yes, I actually took it that way
    Fox Monacular: what did you do with it?
    Pila Mulligan: squished it
    Fox Monacular: so maybe you'll never know....
    Pila Mulligan: I should have asked?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, happens with alarm clocks usually, they are merged into the dream in funny ways
    Fox Monacular: i certainly would have
    Fox Monacular: only if i were sleeping alone though
    Pila Mulligan: 'eh, bug, what's the message ? ...'  :)
    Fox Monacular: something like that
    Fox Monacular: maybe you would have continued sleeping
    Pila Mulligan: I look forward to your meeting Maxine, Fox - she does dream workshops at Kira on Tuesdays, but she is on vacation now
    Fox Monacular: yeah me too
    Pila Mulligan: http://www.kira.org/index.php?option...106&Itemid=136
    Fefonz Quan: i will leave guys, thanks for this multi-disciplinary conversation
    Pila Mulligan: thank you Fefonz, bye for now
    Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: _/!\_
    Fox Monacular: bye Fefonz
    Fox Monacular: thanks for the link, Pila
    Fefonz Quan: Bye All
    Pila Mulligan: one of maxine's ideas is that dreaming is continuous
    Pila Mulligan: we just shift our attention to wkaing conditions
    Pila Mulligan: but the dream go on
    Fox Monacular: interesting.
    Fox Monacular: so why do we have continuity only in wake?
    Fox Monacular: i mean day to day continuity
    Pila Mulligan: now that is a question wihtin a question
    Pila Mulligan: how much continuity do we have?
    Fox Monacular: yes, i agree
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: we have some for sure
    Fox Monacular: or its just an illusion
    Pila Mulligan: but I also have some dream contiinity
    Fox Monacular: some people think that dreams don't have any narrative, that we make it up when we wake up
    Pila Mulligan: I would again make the analogy work both ways -- we have narratives on both sides of the curtain
    Fox Monacular: you mean you have continuity from one night to another?
    Pila Mulligan: from dream to dream, night to night, week to week, year to year
    Pila Mulligan: but not as regular as waking
    Fox Monacular: wow, cool, it's very rare
    Pila Mulligan: I started dreaming work long ago, I'm 63 now
    Pila Mulligan: maybe it is dementia
    Fox Monacular: i've only heard of 1 person like that
    Fox Monacular: no, it's also practice:)
    Pila Mulligan: it seems to be somewhat practice related
    Pila Mulligan: i gave up trying to control dreams long ago -- it seems better just to go with them
    Fox Monacular: you can train yourself to do a lot in dreaming
    Pila Mulligan: yes indeed
    Fox Monacular: there are techniques to lucid dream or to better remember
    Pila Mulligan: yes, like remembering to do something
    Pila Mulligan: in the dream
    Fox Monacular: yes
    Fox Monacular: also to ask for insight
    Pila Mulligan: Don Juan (Casteneada) suggested looking at your hand
    Pila Mulligan: that worked for me
    Fox Monacular: yes, it works really well
    Jiraiya Teskat: clever!
    Pila Mulligan: I think in dreams it is the remembering part, but looking at your hands indirectly is also part of tai chi practice
    Fox Monacular: another popular technique is when you try to turn the light on and off
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Fox Monacular: because in the dream things are usually not what they seem
    Pila Mulligan: and the lights play tricks there
    Pila Mulligan: as do cars
    Fox Monacular: like the lines on your palm
    Fox Monacular: or some people try reading in the dream
    Fox Monacular: it's quite surreal
    Pila Mulligan: my favorite now is to do tai chi or meditate in the dream
    Pila Mulligan: to solidify the epxereince
    Fox Monacular: do you do tibetan dream yoga?
    Pila Mulligan: I've tried some
    Pila Mulligan: but the techniques require more patience than I seem to have
    Fox Monacular: you seem to have reached a really amazing level of lucidity
    Pila Mulligan: maybe dementia :)
    Pila Mulligan: I like Maxine's idea of continuous dreaming, it fits my expereince
    Fox Monacular: no i think it's the opposite of dementia
    Pila Mulligan: thanks, encouraging Fox
    Fox Monacular: lucidity is close to meditation
    Pila Mulligan: I seem to sometimes sense dream images when awake also
    Fox Monacular: in the ability to sustain atention
    Fox Monacular: i know what you mean
    Pila Mulligan: sense as in, if I was dreaming now this is what the imagery would be -- I agree that lucidity is lucidty, anywhere
    Fox Monacular: i think so too
    Fox Monacular: well, thanks for the conversation, unfortunately I have to go wash real life dishes now
    Pila Mulligan: :) thank you Fox, nice to meet you, see you next time
    Fox Monacular: husband coming home in 30 min
    Fox Monacular: :)
    Jiraiya Teskat: See you soon Fox
    Pila Mulligan: enjoy
    Fox Monacular: see you soon!
    Fox Monacular: bye Pila, bye Jiraiya
    Jiraiya Teskat: Bye Fox
    Pila Mulligan: bye Fox

    Pila Mulligan: how have you been Jiraiya?
    Jiraiya and I then had a personal chat for a while
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