2009.07.23 07:00 - The "If" Koan

The Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

 A session between Pema and me.

Pema Pera: Hi there!

genesis Zhangsun: Hi!

Pema Pera: Hi there!
genesis Zhangsun: Hi!
Pema Pera: So this is your first session in your new slot?
genesis Zhangsun: yes
Pema Pera: and I'm your first guest :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes you are
Pema Pera: I don't know how long I will last, given that it's approaching midnight here in Japan, but I'm glad I could make it.
genesis Zhangsun: me too glad you come :)
Pema Pera: Do you have a prefered topic for tonight?

Psychology and Meditation

genesis Zhangsun: I have been thinking a lot, as a result of my own situation about where psychology and meditation meet
genesis Zhangsun: I find meditation to be far more realiable than seeing a therapist
Pema Pera: I was about to suggest as a topic "Being -- in practice!" which sounds like possibly the same topic :-)
genesis Zhangsun: sounds like it :)
Pema Pera: do you want to elaborate a bit more?
genesis Zhangsun: a therapist in unpacking/deconstructing your situation can add a lot of their own extras
genesis Zhangsun: informed by their own experience, education, prejudices etc
genesis Zhangsun: This has happened to me before
genesis Zhangsun: one therapist I had interpreted my whole situation as a result of being a "woman"
genesis Zhangsun: of course being a woman is central to who I am
genesis Zhangsun: but I felt like overshadowed a lot of other things that could be said about the situation
genesis Zhangsun: I told him exactly that
genesis Zhangsun: and he was taken a back
genesis Zhangsun: he had never had one his patients "talk back"
genesis Zhangsun: or at least he reacted like it
Pema Pera: :)
genesis Zhangsun: he was also sort of impressed
genesis Zhangsun: and told me that I was very "psychologically" minded
genesis Zhangsun: already
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: that was my last session with him
genesis Zhangsun: with meditation I use my already "psychologically" oriented mind and put it to use
Pema Pera: I guess really good therapists know how to use the stockpile of their own experiences to choose what might fit and benefit their client, but yes, ultimately no therapist can see the whole landscape, not by a long shot . . .
genesis Zhangsun: in a "non using" way
genesis Zhangsun: yes they are human after all
genesis Zhangsun: I have always been very independent so the thought of expecting someone to "fix" me was never an issue
genesis Zhangsun: but every time I went I felt like they were trying to
genesis Zhangsun: and I always wanted to say almost to them "hey its not so bad"
Pema Pera: :)
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: I think a lot of people see perfectly clearly their own issues
genesis Zhangsun: I think a coaching style of therapy is more effective than therapies that focus on the past
genesis Zhangsun: forcing you to identify with your past as if it is you is not always helpful
genesis Zhangsun: a coach can help you work on how to take what you see and make small changes
genesis Zhangsun: emphasis on small
genesis Zhangsun: I think this is all we can do

Therapists as mirrors

Pema Pera: Perhaps the two concrete things a therapist can do is to point out some obvious aspects that a client may not see, acting as a mirror, and then helping the client to learn to open up, acting as a window to a larger world
genesis Zhangsun: gradual change to turn the tide
genesis Zhangsun: yes that is true many people need mirrors and some people are very closed
Pema Pera: what they probably dont' need is paintings . . . .
Pema Pera: stories that may or may not fit
genesis Zhangsun: right
genesis Zhangsun: I am always suspicious when therapist starts to talk a lot
genesis Zhangsun: early on :)
Pema Pera: Can you say more about: [7:17] genesis Zhangsun: with meditation I use my already "psychologically" oriented mind and put it to use

How I put my analytical "psycholigically" oriented mind to use in meditation

genesis Zhangsun: yes sure
genesis Zhangsun: so my tendency is to get a bit obsessive
genesis Zhangsun: I take an idea and my mind chews on it
genesis Zhangsun: far too long
genesis Zhangsun: perhaps even until it has turned to dust :)
genesis Zhangsun: so meditation allows me to let go of that usual thinking pattern
genesis Zhangsun: I drop it
genesis Zhangsun: but it also continues to work in the background
genesis Zhangsun: but in a slower way
genesis Zhangsun: more space for thoughts
genesis Zhangsun: less pressured
genesis Zhangsun: so while I don't focus on "insight:
genesis Zhangsun: in my meditation
genesis Zhangsun: and more "calm"
genesis Zhangsun: I notice that towards the end
genesis Zhangsun: sometimes in a very shocking way
genesis Zhangsun: a little piece of processed information comes to the surface
genesis Zhangsun: in a very neat, beautiful kind of symbolic way
genesis Zhangsun: much more understandable than the garble in my head when I believe I am working on something by thinking about it logically/rationally
genesis Zhangsun: the symbol is very complete
genesis Zhangsun: capturing all of kinds of things I could never put into words
genesis Zhangsun: except maybe in poetry
genesis Zhangsun: :)
genesis Zhangsun: these symbols feel very intimate
genesis Zhangsun: only I could hold them up to myself
genesis Zhangsun: a therapist could never do it for me
genesis Zhangsun: the self exploration also has something so relaxed about it
genesis Zhangsun: I feel trust
genesis Zhangsun: for the process, for myself, in Being
Pema Pera: that's a beautiful summary!

Fine line between obsession and mastery

Pema Pera: as for "obsessive", there is a very fine line . . . .
Pema Pera: any great artist or scientist or real master of any kind that I have ever met in person, or read about in sufficient detail, did strike me as quite obsessive
Pema Pera: but in a way that made sense, ultimately, although sometimes through a painful kind of "birth process"
genesis Zhangsun: yes
--BELL--
Pema Pera: without strong tenacity new ideas are rarely born . . . but yes, relaxation and leisure are essential too, as long as the momentum doesn't get lost or squandered. That's the difference between relaxation and distraction.
genesis Zhangsun: yes!
genesis Zhangsun: sometimes I can even feel that meditation can be a distraction
Pema Pera: sure!
genesis Zhangsun: sometimes you are supposed to get going and moving :)
genesis Zhangsun: dancing
genesis Zhangsun: not sitting :)
genesis Zhangsun: playing not practicing
Pema Pera: a good coach only has to say "more intense" and "less intense" depending on which way someone tends to lean at any given time -- like bicycling we all tend to lean left or right and need to correct -- it's the middle way approach
genesis Zhangsun: I suppose the idea is to bring the sitting mentality with you in the movement
genesis Zhangsun: yes
genesis Zhangsun: we are not fixed static beings
Pema Pera: Buddha gave the example of tuning a string on a lute, not too tight not too sloppy
genesis Zhangsun: different things at different times
genesis Zhangsun: and finding that tune really is just about experience
genesis Zhangsun: without going too far in one extreme
genesis Zhangsun: it is hard to know where the middle lies

Daily practice as Brushing your teeth

Pema Pera: so how do you "stick with it" without getting too tense?
genesis Zhangsun: honestly
Pema Pera: playing without "practicing" and without getting sloppy?
genesis Zhangsun: I try to think of it like brushing my teeth
genesis Zhangsun: it is something I do for maintenance
genesis Zhangsun: I don't try to "add" any extra dimension
genesis Zhangsun: of ambition
genesis Zhangsun: or hard discipline
genesis Zhangsun: just like there is no hard discipline to brush your teeth
genesis Zhangsun: sometimes maybe your brushing is not perfect
genesis Zhangsun: but it does the job well enough
genesis Zhangsun: I try not to think about it just do it
Pema Pera: and Being is the electric toothbrush, doing the moving for you, very effectively (sorry, couldn't help myself extending your metaphor :-)
genesis Zhangsun: yes :)
genesis Zhangsun: thats right you are not really doing the moving
genesis Zhangsun: the brushing
genesis Zhangsun: you just have to show up
genesis Zhangsun: they say what 98% of success is just showing up
genesis Zhangsun: I think that is always true
genesis Zhangsun: you can always find reasons not to
Pema Pera: yes, continuity -- the core idea of PaB
genesis Zhangsun: in this case I made a commitment not to let those reasons have a chance
genesis Zhangsun: and the practice also reinforces the discipline
genesis Zhangsun: just like with PaB
genesis Zhangsun: you find each time you do show up it is fun, it makes you feel better
Pema Pera: :)
genesis Zhangsun: maybe you don't always feel that way during
genesis Zhangsun: but afterwards thats what you can conclude pretty firmly
genesis Zhangsun: so that brings you back

Maintaining Balance v. Ambition

Pema Pera: can you say more about the notion of "maintenance"? You mean this as opposed to reaching/adding/perfecting, right?
genesis Zhangsun: yes
genesis Zhangsun: and also in the sense of truly dropping everything
genesis Zhangsun: if you are coming in with an ambition
genesis Zhangsun: it might be your "monkey"
genesis Zhangsun: driving you to do the sage's will
genesis Zhangsun: but eventually you will have to drop that too
genesis Zhangsun: and then you will find something more subtle there
genesis Zhangsun: an even more subtle ambition perhaps
genesis Zhangsun: and you keep dropping
genesis Zhangsun: I once described it as starting with something as coarse and overblown like a bat to hit a marble
genesis Zhangsun: eventually you are playing ping pong
genesis Zhangsun: and then just a flick of your finger
genesis Zhangsun: than no finger at all

Pema upping the ante...surprise surprise ;)

Pema Pera: I fully agree with all that, but if I may try to be even more radical, how about upping the ante even further?
Pema Pera: (and here I have to give credit where credit is due: to Stim)
genesis Zhangsun: okay
Pema Pera: what you have just outlined, this whole path from bat to ping pong to flicking to nothing -- all that still has a flavor of a path, a process, a program, a kind of agenda
Pema Pera: do you think it would be possible to drop EVEN THAT ?
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: maybe :)
genesis Zhangsun: I think I do drop it already
genesis Zhangsun: but also as Steven says
genesis Zhangsun: the mind is naturally achievment oriented
Pema Pera: Stim used to drive me up the wall, with saying something like that . . . . just after I had given my best analysis . . . .
Pema Pera: and it took me years to see more of the impact and range of what he had to say . . . .
Pema Pera: I'm still learning
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Pema Pera: And yes, my reaction also was, many times "I think I do that already"
genesis Zhangsun: and we are learning from the path you have already beaten down to some extent
Pema Pera: He would just smile in return
genesis Zhangsun: though every person must walk it for themselves
Pema Pera: but perhaps there is no path
genesis Zhangsun: well of course we are doing it already
genesis Zhangsun: thats the whole thing about it right!!
genesis Zhangsun: lol
Pema Pera: :)

The "if" koan something Pema and I have been discussing.  "If" you see then it is enough...what about dropping the "if" the condition, what happens?

Pema Pera: that's the "if" we have been talking about
genesis Zhangsun: yes it is
genesis Zhangsun: the elusive if
Pema Pera: any path glorifies an "if" -- if you don't take this path it won't work
Pema Pera: you'll be doomed
Pema Pera: not enlightened
Pema Pera: but if you don't take any path, then what -- most likely you're even more stuck
Pema Pera: so what gives?
genesis Zhangsun: hmm yes tricky koan
genesis Zhangsun: still pondering it
Pema Pera: Stim and I have given it a code name : "Namkhai Norbu's if"
Pema Pera: we both studied with him, Stim longer than I
Pema Pera: He's a great Tibetan teacher, still alive, one of the last great ones trained in Tibet
genesis Zhangsun: I am very eager what does he say about it
genesis Zhangsun: hands are clapping
genesis Zhangsun: in delight :)

TSK and PaB v. Chan and Dzogchen

Pema Pera: When we talked about Stim's views, from Time Space Knowledge and onwards, and compared it to traditional approaches such as Chan/Zen and Dzogchen (Chinese/Japanese and Tibetan)
Pema Pera: hehehehe
Pema Pera: Stim said one day: perhaps the Time Space Knowledge view is even more radical than (at least the typical understanding of) zen or dzogchen
Pema Pera: and he took Namkhai Norbu as an example, a living example known to both of us.
Pema Pera: He said:
Pema Pera: If Namkhai Norbu would walk into this room (we were sitting in my office in Princeton)
Pema Pera: and would join the conversation, the he would likely say something in response to the Time, Space, Knowledge vision
Pema Pera: "sure, IF you can see what TSK points to, THEN that would be equivalent to chan/zen or dzogchen"
Pema Pera: meaning that the essence is similar, and that it is all a question of whether or to what extent you get it
Pema Pera: Now Stim added, cautiously as you know his way:
Pema Pera: maybe TSK is different. Maybe there is no "if"
Pema Pera: . . . . . . . . . . . .
genesis Zhangsun: play as being seems to build off of that precisely
Pema Pera: yes
genesis Zhangsun: so it is funny
genesis Zhangsun: Play as Being as 9 seconds
genesis Zhangsun: Being Seeing
genesis Zhangsun: APAPB
genesis Zhangsun: why?
Pema Pera: starting at the last page of the book Time Space Knowledge -- if possible trying to be even more radical, in my yourthful enthusiasm (I am after all five years younger than Stim)
Pema Pera: why what?

If we are at the end why practice?

genesis Zhangsun: why do we practice, why explore using these methods?
Pema Pera: no reason
genesis Zhangsun: so if they are not to see better
genesis Zhangsun: they are to celebrate the seeing?
Pema Pera: that's the koan
Pema Pera: yes
genesis Zhangsun: that is already happening
Pema Pera: and the challenge is to the really really really imbibe that and let is soak into your bones
genesis Zhangsun: its so clear and yet so easy to forget
Pema Pera: there are so many levels
Pema Pera: I feel each day I'm getting more soaked . . . . .
--BELL--
genesis Zhangsun: I apologize Pema but I must run
Pema Pera: and smile at how I thought I was soaked only a week ago, while I now see that I didn't even get started yet then
genesis Zhangsun: it has been such a great conversation
Pema Pera: same here :)
genesis Zhangsun: good night sleep well!
Pema Pera: you run, I sleep, seems like a fair division of labor :-)
Pema Pera: u 2
genesis Zhangsun: :)