2009.07.31 07:00 - Mary & Martha, Driving/ The Ego Game

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, filling in for Quen. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

    What a fun pajama-party-like session! So glad I signed on intending just to grab the log.

    Adams arrives first, with lovely further insights, rather poetic, concerning Mary and Martha...

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: A Good Morning to you, Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I can't tell you how much I like the pink dress you are wearing. It is a smile itself :)
    Adams Rubble: :) thanks. You have on a lovely outfit..love your hair :)


    Eliza Madrigal: Thanks :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I've thought quite a bit about Mary and Martha since yesterday.
    Adams Rubble: Glad to hear that; I have too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What have you thought?
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Adams Rubble: Well maybe less thinking than doing in a way...
    Adams Rubble: I have been watching myself slip easily between the Mary smiling mode and the Martha working mode
    Adams Rubble: It has helped me take my Martha mode much more lightly
    Eliza Madrigal: How interesting, so you are just noticing
    Adams Rubble: So I have not gone as deeply into work
    Adams Rubble: more than noticing
    Adams Rubble: I think I am doing in a sense
    Adams Rubble: willing myself to see the Mary part
    Adams Rubble: Yesterday I saw Martha and Mary in a car
    Adams Rubble: Martha driving
    Adams Rubble: Mary looking out the side window smiling
    Adams Rubble: (both wearing seatbelts, not using cell phones)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal grins
    Adams Rubble: It was then I made a jump to our childhood
    Adams Rubble: thinking about a child in a car watching
    Fael Illyar: Hi Adams, Eliza :)
    Adams Rubble: and then I began to think how we are Mary as children
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Fael! :)
    Adams Rubble: and when we look back at childhood thinking we lost something
    Adams Rubble: Hi fael :)
    Fael Illyar: I found that this office I need to make a visit to closes at 15:45 (I got there 16:00) and that I need to excersize more.
    Adams Rubble: we are looking for the times we could just be Mary
    Adams Rubble: looking at a flower
    Adams Rubble: watching the wind blow the leaves on the trees
    Adams Rubble: just listening :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia :)
    Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi there :)
    Eliza Madrigal: I like your descriptions so much Adams, thank you :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Fael, you are with us by accident then, having missed an appointment?
    Fael Illyar: no appointment. I was expecting to queue there :P
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh :)

    SophiaSharon arrives, then Fael as a dramatic angel... 

    Adams Rubble: very powerful wings there Fael :)
    Fael Illyar: well, another time next monday :)
    Adams Rubble: like an archangel
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, extraordinary!
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal takes another picture
    Adams Rubble: It was Pema who suggested Mary smiling
    Fael Illyar: The outfit is called White Seraphim
    Adams Rubble: Congratulations on your high office :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Fael Illyar: Thank you :P
    Eliza Madrigal thinks about the imagery in Ezekiel...wheels and angels and such
    Fael Illyar: well, right now my legs are heavy, the bottoms of my feet hurt and ... umm ... I'm like that's the way it should be :P
    Eliza Madrigal: hahah
    Adams Rubble feels very safe at PaB today :)



    Eliza Madrigal: yes me too :)
    Eliza Madrigal: How are you SophiaSharon?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good :) thanks for asking
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles.... busy, logged on impulse
    Eliza Madrigal is humming "When I find myself in times of trouble..."
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Adams Rubble: :) Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Well, this is nice. :)
    Eliza Madrigal: What are you busy with Sophia?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I have read the some see the imagery in Ezekiel as a primitive description of a spaceship, much like in Veda's
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the Veda's*
    Adams Rubble: oh my
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I can see that actually
    SophiaSharon Larnia: well, am working this weekend am supposed to be asleep, but have been on the phone alot
    Eliza Madrigal: It has been a long time since I've looked at it admittedly, so what I have are flashes of what I remembered seeing, but wheels within wheels....
    Eliza Madrigal: Pab is a nice place to be when one is suppose to be asleep. Very close. heheh
    SophiaSharon Larnia: hi sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sophia! :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha yes Eliza :)
    sophia Placebo: hi sophia 2 :)
    Fael Illyar: Yes, I remember reading an excerpt from bible that was shown in a context that explained how it's describing a spaceship

    Sophia arrives with 'The Ego Game'! 

    Fael Illyar: hi sophia :)
    sophia Placebo: hi eliza ,fael:)
    sophia Placebo: hi adams
    Eliza Madrigal: Beautiful dress and hair...very classic :)
    sophia Placebo: ty!
    Eliza Madrigal: hehehe
    Adams Rubble: Hello Sophia :)
    Eliza Madrigal: (Now Sophia has changed to her bunny ave)
    Eliza Madrigal: *av
    Fael Illyar: I see :)
    Adams Rubble: mini-Sophia ?
    sophia Placebo: i loved this one
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, Ave Maria...love that music...

    Two versions. The first is Karen Carpenter's:



    SophiaSharon Larnia: cute bunny :))
    Adams Rubble: yes it is :)
    sophia Placebo: it allow you more childish bunny like behavour
    Adams Rubble: hehe. that is a good thing :)
    sophia Placebo: sorry for interuppting your talk please continoue
    Adams Rubble humming "Here comes Peter Cottontail..."
    Eliza Madrigal: Sophia, we haven't really settled on a subject, just a little more about Mary and Martha, and biblical imagery.
    Eliza Madrigal: What are you thinking about tday?
    sophia Placebo: playing with ego
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh wow. How so?
    sophia Placebo: well old children games
    sophia Placebo: say if i tell you something then you tell me how you see it
    Fael Illyar: sure, let's try :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    sophia Placebo: ok , suppose you are sitting
    Eliza Madrigal: okay
    Fael Illyar: no supposing there :P
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    sophia Placebo: where were you sitting and how ?
    sophia Placebo: there is a choko cake infront of you
    Fael Illyar: well, I was obviously sitting in front of my computer :)
    sophia Placebo: what do you see yourself doing
    Adams Rubble has chcolate smeared all over her face
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
    Eliza Madrigal: At the computer crossed legged, straight backed, and the cake is a small little cake with white fondant and a pink bow, like you :)
    sophia Placebo: lol adams
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Fael Illyar: slowly taking pieces of the cake with a small spoon and taking them to my mouth.
    Eliza Madrigal: just looking at it, wondering if I could make one like this again... perfect little edges
    sophia Placebo giggles
    Adams Rubble wondering who ate the cake
    Adams Rubble: :)
    sophia Placebo: some poepel would think if they can take the cake
    sophia Placebo: some would resist the urge to take it
    Adams Rubble looks around
    Eliza Madrigal: some dive in? heheh
    sophia Placebo: lol yeah
    sophia Placebo: some would think im not hungery
    Eliza Madrigal: How funny. So even a little game like that shows one a lot.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles

    Yakuzza arrives but is silent most of the session. Sometimes nice just to sit with others isn't it. 

    Eliza Madrigal: Hi Yakuzza :)
    Adams Rubble: Hello Yakuzza :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: hey there
    sophia Placebo: the question is , what makes one eat the cake in their imaginations and other resist that
    SophiaSharon Larnia: HI Yakuzza
    Fael Illyar: hi yakuzza :)
    sophia Placebo: hi yak
    SophiaSharon Larnia: good question
    Eliza Madrigal: What do you think sophia? Hm
    Adams Rubble: Some of us grab everything we can at PaB :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    sophia Placebo: this was an ego practice , do you satesfy yourself or not
    Adams Rubble afraid to hear what Siophia has to say :)
    sophia Placebo: how much you relay on your ego in your decision
    Eliza Madrigal: hmm, thinking
    SophiaSharon Larnia: depends of what the cake is for i guess
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, diving into the cake and eating every bit can be appreciation
    sophia Placebo: yak: suppose you are sitting and a chock kace infront of you
    Fael Illyar: I don't keep a cake in front of me when sitting unless it is for me :P
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha Fael
    Adams Rubble: w3hoops
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes that was it
    Eliza Madrigal: Oh, she poofed
    Eliza Madrigal: She went to get a cake, was now very hungry
    Adams Rubble was waiting for the next course
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: WB Sophia :)
    Adams Rubble: wb Sophia :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: wb!
    sophia Placebo: ty
    Fael Illyar: wb :)
    sophia Placebo: ty fael^^
    SophiaSharon Larnia: you were saying?
    sophia Placebo: what was the last line?
    Eliza Madrigal: 7:40] sophia Placebo: yak: suppose you are sitting and a chock kace infront of you [7:40] Fael Illyar: I don't keep a cake in front of me when sitting unless it is for me :P [7:40] SophiaSharon Larnia: haha Fael
    sophia Placebo: oh i was asking yak what he see himself doing ?
    sophia Placebo: just to put him in our game ,if he likes
    sophia Placebo: yes fael me too i supposed the cake is mine and i was hungery too
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: This is fun
    sophia Placebo: never say no to choclate cake
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, now pictures a seven layer chocolate cake with shavings at the top
    Eliza Madrigal: but it is enormous. We all have to have some
    Fael Illyar: oh, you're going grandiose with it :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: the truth for me is not eat until I am really hungry, to eat it when you are full is not enjoy it so much
    sophia Placebo: true soph
    SophiaSharon Larnia: but i will lick the icinglol
    Fael Illyar: the cake in my mind was a small one. enough for one.
    Eliza Madrigal now needs a ladder to get to the top of the cake to begin slicing
    SophiaSharon Larnia: haha
    Adams Rubble didn;t see the cake for too long :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: giggles
    sophia Placebo: lol
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    SophiaSharon Larnia: interesting

    A little tangent I guess, but in the scope of the game...

    Eliza Madrigal: This may or may not be relevent, but yesterday after thinking about experiencing states of peace and activity 'at once' I realized that filling up and pouring out can be the same thing.
    Fael Illyar: yep, no bottom and they're the same thing :)
    Eliza Madrigal: YES! No bottom
    Eliza Madrigal: So one's urge to make a huge cake for themselves might become a way then to feed many people :)
    Fael Illyar: quite so.
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Fael Illyar: even when I think I'm doing something for myself, I often find afterwards that it was quite good thing for others too
    Eliza Madrigal: So it is funny to think about ego and 'selfishness' in that context.. maybe it is about wastefullness vs generosity?
    Eliza Madrigal: but then I begin mixing metaphors and wondering if Martha really needed to make such a big cake. hahahahha
    sophia Placebo: ego dosnt always eqaul selfeshness no ?
    sophia Placebo: lol
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, does it? There are so many teachings lately on 'egolessness'
    sophia Placebo: egolessness equal selflessness no?
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, maybe just another word for self, and the idea there to be empty rather than anhilated?
    Eliza Madrigal: *annihilated
    sophia Placebo: like empty shell?
    Eliza Madrigal: like full of emptiness...like being emptied and filled at same time? :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: i dont think egolessness = selflessness, but self-absorbed implies selfishness
    Fael Illyar: self-absorbed can also be quite the opposite of selfish in many ways...
    Eliza Madrigal nods to SophiaSharon. yes I wonder if this isn't where it is easy to get tangled talking about ego... is a tool?
    Eliza Madrigal: Go on Fael?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: like a continual wave of being Eliza? :)
    Eliza Madrigal: YES, lovely put :)

    Guilt snuck in with the chocolate cake...

    Fael Illyar: for example, feelin guilty is an example of a way of being self-absorbed
    SophiaSharon Larnia: true
    sophia Placebo: magnificent ava fael
    Eliza Madrigal nods, and guilt can also be a pointer
    Fael Illyar smiles 'Thank you.'
    Adams Rubble: If we all had chocolate cake in front of us there was plenty to go around :)
    Eliza Madrigal smiles big
    SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
    sophia Placebo: :)
    Fael Illyar goes to fetch a chocolate pudding from the fridge.
    Eliza Madrigal: I think I see your point Fael, there are times when from outside, times of focus can look like self-absorption. Maybe something very important is going on though. Like Mary sitting listening.
    Adams Rubble: or eatig?
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Fael Illyar: guilt is based on the mistaken notion that there's a self who bears the whole responsibility for something that happened.
    Fael Illyar: and that this self shouldn't be the way it s
    Eliza Madrigal: oh wow
    sophia Placebo: guilt is the awarness of your mistake and its impact on others for me
    sophia Placebo: you wont feel mi=uch guilt if no harm done
    SophiaSharon Larnia: agress with sophia
    Adams Rubble: yes, guilt is a process on whihc we weigh our actions
    Eliza Madrigal: We are not completely aware though....even intending no harm, harm comes about in the normal scheme of things
    Adams Rubble does not feel guilty about the cake :)
    Fael Illyar: it's also based on the also mistaken notion that things could have gone differently.
    sophia Placebo: too much guilt though is seeing self as life engine , all is due me and my stupid acts
    Adams Rubble: why mistaken?
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes, Fael. I can see that... or that the other ways might have been better or faultless
    Fael Illyar: well, they went one way. How could they go another way?
    Adams Rubble: why not?
    Fael Illyar: it's already gone, how could it go another way anymore?
    Adams Rubble: yes, but there is a next time. we must be able to see consequences
    Fael Illyar: next time, yes, but not for the same situation.
    Eliza Madrigal: how we learn to be aware of intention
    Eliza Madrigal: the sting of guilt
    sophia Placebo: no guilt for same situation , no conso=idration for next time
    Adams Rubble: It gets tough to talk in absolutes about things like this
    Eliza Madrigal: absolutely
    sophia Placebo: there will be no memory alarm
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Adams Rubble: :)
    Eliza Madrigal: And it is also a koan
    Eliza Madrigal: Each of us will see guilt in a different way
    Eliza Madrigal: based on our own experiences and path
    SophiaSharon Larnia: (off subject, interesting how talking of chocolate cake turned to guilt)
    Eliza Madrigal: hahahah
    sophia Placebo: hehe
    Adams Rubble: yes!
    Eliza Madrigal: We will each see the cake differently too!
    SophiaSharon Larnia: rather telling, that :)
    Eliza Madrigal snickers
    Eliza Madrigal: yes it is
    Fael Illyar: "oh my god, I ate the cake, someone else didn't get the cake now!"
    Fael Illyar: "It's my fault! boohoo!"
    Adams Rubble: cake is best for enjoyment
    SophiaSharon Larnia: or me, omg i ate that wole cake?
    SophiaSharon Larnia: whole*
    SophiaSharon Larnia: I must go, see you later everyone :) Thank you sophia for the game, it's a bit to think about :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Cake is best eaten in celebration :)
    sophia Placebo: g2g cu
    Fael Illyar: See you later SophiaSharon :)
    SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it is Eliza :))
    SophiaSharon Larnia: waves
    Adams Rubble: bye Sophia
    Eliza Madrigal: Yes it is. Bye for now SophiaSharon :)
    Adams Rubble: I must go too :)
    Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)
    Adams Rubble: bye everyone :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams :)

    Yakuzza checks in momentarily :)

    Eliza Madrigal: Quite a topic. Fun and deep at the same time :)
    Fael Illyar: yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Yakuzza, still with us?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: not really :)
    Fael Illyar: no?
    Eliza Madrigal: :) Multitasking?
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i got it on the second monitor yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal would like a book of pictures of everyone's computer set-up at home
    Eliza Madrigal: :)
    Fael Illyar smiles.
    Yakuzza Lethecus: it doesn´t fit together right now
    Yakuzza Lethecus: one screen is silver
    Yakuzza Lethecus: the other is black
    Yakuzza Lethecus: pc is silver and black
    Yakuzza Lethecus: maybe it fits
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i dunno :D
    Fael Illyar: oh me too... although one of the screens is in my laptop that's not always in this position.
    Eliza Madrigal uses one desktop computer in a cabinet that is a bit messy right now
    Eliza Madrigal: My girls have laptops, but they aren't SL capable
    Yakuzza Lethecus: yeah, SL really takes a lot of ressources
    Fael Illyar: I got my laptop with SL in mind :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: i had to use SL on an old pc before
    Yakuzza Lethecus: there are laptops and laptops
    Fael Illyar: ended up with a laptop that's faster in all ways than my desktop :)
    Eliza Madrigal: fantastic!
    Eliza Madrigal: That's a purchase I'd like to make. Then I can sit with the kids by the pool in the community and be here :)
    Yakuzza Lethecus: its only the graphics card often :(
    Fael Illyar: but this is more of a luggable than a laptop :)
    Fael Illyar: if I'm on SL it only works an hour on battery
    Fael Illyar: 2 otherwise

    Fael and I were obviously still thinking of topics that had come up earlier, especially guilt I think...

     Eliza Madrigal: Ah, draining then, concentrated

    Faelyar: yep, good performance or good battery life...
    Fael Illyar: your pick :P
    Eliza Madrigal: :D
    Eliza Madrigal: I tend to pick up an idea and hold it for a few days. Today the idea is the filling/pouring idea at same time... which implies a kind of intensity to me
    Eliza Madrigal: concentration :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So I'm hearing that everywhere. hahha
    Fael Illyar: yep, many ideas fit in many places :)
    Eliza Madrigal: it takes more energy, but gives much in return
    Fael Illyar: I tend to do that too.
    Eliza Madrigal giggles
    Fael Illyar: then it goes by, months pass, someone mentions something, it pops back and I suddenly see a bit more.
    Eliza Madrigal: and today?
    Fael Illyar: today? hmm... guilt?
    Eliza Madrigal: Maybe there is a difference between guilt and condemnation?
    Fael Illyar: well, it's somehow related to what I've been working with.
    Eliza Madrigal: yes?
    Fael Illyar: it does feel like there's condemnation and guilt and that they're different, yes.
    Fael Illyar: what do you think is the difference?
    Eliza Madrigal: gravity
    Eliza Madrigal: Guilt can be a friend. Hard to see condemnation as a friend
    Fael Illyar: not sure of the point to have two words when the only difference is the power :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Condemnation doesn't lead anywhere I think
    Eliza Madrigal: there is no 'out' or way through it
    Eliza Madrigal: no love
    Eliza Madrigal: or that's how I think of it
    Fael Illyar: would you mean guilt as simply a wish to be able to do ... better, whatever that means.
    Eliza Madrigal: I think so, that guilt 'can be' a doorway to a positive kind of sensitivity
    Eliza Madrigal: Not that it always is
    Fael Illyar: hmmh... I can't quite fit that together with my previous idea of guilt at all :)
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe it can be a way out of condemnation
    Fael Illyar: completely different animal
    Eliza Madrigal: admittedly, guilt looks friendlier 'next to' condemnation
    Eliza Madrigal: maybe next to acceptance it looks kind of mean
    Fael Illyar: just wishing to learn to do better sounds like acceptance to me...
    Eliza Madrigal: yes me too
    Eliza Madrigal: but one wishes to learn sometimes after seeing what they don't know
    Fael Illyar: but... there isn't actually any real difference in how I've used to understand guilt and condemnation.
    Fael Illyar: except that guilt has seemed lesser.
    Eliza Madrigal nods. It prob. has much to do with conditioning...
    Eliza Madrigal: meaning if you are raised in an environment where apologies were accepted and things moved on, maybe different
    Fael Illyar: I was raised in an environment where apologies were forced.
    Eliza Madrigal: than making someone feel guilty to vent or abdicate self responsibility
    Eliza Madrigal nods
    Eliza Madrigal: sounds like no way out then...little exploring
    Fael Illyar: (which, in effect, means they were lies many times)
    Eliza Madrigal: I had that experience too
    Eliza Madrigal: yes, I completely understand that
    Eliza Madrigal: So making friends with guilt seems a stretch, but maybe a helpful stretch in some ways.
    Eliza Madrigal: Though, also good to have a radar for arbitrary blame being directed at one :)
    Fael Illyar: -yes :)
    Eliza Madrigal: So much of earlier parenting was about fear of losing contro
    Eliza Madrigal: *control
    Eliza Madrigal: So fear and guilt are good 'tools' if that is the framework
    Fael Illyar: Ah, appears I got RL things to do.
    Eliza Madrigal smiles
    Eliza Madrigal: me too
    Fael Illyar: Thank you for the talk, Eliza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: but I like talking to you
    Fael Illyar smiles and waves.
    Fael Illyar: See you later Yakuzza :)
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye Fael
    Eliza Madrigal: Bye yakuzza.... intended only to stop and grab the log for Quen today. I can't resist PaB cake though :)

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