The Guardian for this meeting was Lucinda Lavender. The comments are by Lucinda Lavender.

stevenaia Michinaga: hello
--BELL--

Lucinda Lavender: Hi Stevenaia...
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: Well I have managed to start this up.
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I just wanted to make sure somebody had, have you postted a log before?
Lucinda Lavender: I have to check and see if the test message went through...
Lucinda Lavender: no I have not
Lucinda Lavender: and yes it seems to have worked
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Arch!
stevenaia Michinaga: there are instructions on the wiki,
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Arch
Lucinda Lavender: yes I have read them
Archmage Atlantis: Hiya Stevenaia. ......Hi Lucinda
stevenaia Michinaga: the easiest way is jsut to copy from the web, paste in a new log, change the title then save, then reesdite add comments , format, etc
stevenaia Michinaga: *re-edit
Lucinda Lavender: ok:)
stevenaia Michinaga: if you like I can check after you post it
Lucinda Lavender: very nice!
Lucinda Lavender: thanks for your help...
stevenaia Michinaga: how are you Arch, haven;t seen you in a while?
Archmage Atlantis: :) - could say the same...mismatched schedules I suppose??....anyway I am hopeful
stevenaia Michinaga: :), yes
Lucinda Lavender: hopeful...good to hear.
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, hopeful......that humankind will finally get "it" and our impact on this small aquarium of ours *g*
Lucinda Lavender: *g* is a new word for me...
Archmage Atlantis: Gotta go. Later guys :)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Arch
Lucinda Lavender: :) bye Arch!
stevenaia Michinaga: poof
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Cal
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Lose an arch / gain a cal
Calvino Rabeni: Hello
Lucinda Lavender: yes:)))
Lucinda Lavender: funny
stevenaia Michinaga: like Clark Kent?
Lucinda Lavender: what color would your cape be?
stevenaia Michinaga: no shirt. no cape
Lucinda Lavender: an invisible garment of Being
stevenaia Michinaga: what color is Being?
Lucinda Lavender: not sure...
Lucinda Lavender: all colors and none?
Lucinda Lavender: and
Calvino Rabeni: A chameleon,perhaps
Lucinda Lavender: nods
stevenaia Michinaga: reminds me a bit abour how I dress in the morning, grab what is at hand and always forget to look at how it goes together, I suspect Being wouldn;t look back, being sees, not is seen
--BELL--

Lucinda Lavender: Thinking about the word habit
stevenaia Michinaga: word habit>
stevenaia Michinaga: ?
Lucinda Lavender: I have the habit of creating a colorful set of clothes ...yes the word "habit"
stevenaia Michinaga: awww
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: greetings
Lucinda Lavender: and when the word sits there it looks funny to me.
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pila!
Lucinda Lavender: greetings...
Lucinda Lavender: I have been noticing what my habits are...
Pila Mulligan: are we not creatures of habit?
Lucinda Lavender: it seems so...
Pila Mulligan: it seems so to me too ...
Pila Mulligan: I think the trick is to assure that your habits are healty
Pila Mulligan: healthy*
Pila Mulligan: at least a preponderance of them
Calvino Rabeni: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: a habit give us a safe place to move ahead from too
Pila Mulligan: they can simplify things
Pila Mulligan: habits
Lucinda Lavender: :)I am wondering why Nuns wear something called habits...
Pila Mulligan: let's google :)
stevenaia Michinaga: lol, thinking the same thing
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_habit
stevenaia Michinaga: so much for simplicity
Lucinda Lavender: :) Tanks Pla.
Pila Mulligan: I dondoesn't say why though
Pila Mulligan: I don't seewhere it says why
Pila Mulligan: ahh. Latin: dreee or appearance
Pila Mulligan: dress*
Pila Mulligan: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=habit
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: originally pp. of habere "to have, to hold, possess,"
Lucinda Lavender: Perhaps when it is worn it is helping one to hold a view.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, ... for self as well as for others, like a uniform.
Pila Mulligan: it seems the etymology is the same for both versions -- a habit in action and in dress
stevenaia Michinaga: when my spouse went to catholic girls school, she felt the uniform was a great equalizer
Lucinda Lavender: yes...I have heard of that too.
stevenaia Michinaga: considering she was jewish, she needed all th e equalization she could get
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: well, so was Jesus
Lucinda Lavender: that way the people drop some of their individual view
stevenaia Michinaga: but even he could not go to a girls school
Pila Mulligan: yes, nuns are funnny that way
stevenaia Michinaga: she viewed it as a "calls" equalizer, for rich and poor became irrelivent, intelligence was what mattered
Pila Mulligan: and obedience
stevenaia Michinaga: opps.*"class"
stevenaia Michinaga: equalizer, rather
Pila Mulligan: no offence to the nuns but the need for obedience seems to hav ebeen notorious, among folks I knew ion that path
stevenaia Michinaga: perhaps in a convent the same was true in terms of faith
Pila Mulligan: I once worked with a lawyer from a Catholic school and we had a case against a lawyer who had been a nun -- she made him very uptight
Pila Mulligan: just her presence
Lucinda Lavender: interesting.I am thinking about the different ways teachers work with children. There is quite a spectrum.
Pila Mulligan: yes, and in fairness my cousin was a catholic preist who ran a motessori school, and he was the epitome of sincerity and gentless with kids
Pila Mulligan: gentleness
Pila Mulligan: the poor lawyer just had a lingering traumatized image of the authority of nuns
stevenaia Michinaga: dificulty with dropping past images
Lucinda Lavender: :) much is quiet in the montessori classroom...and the gentleness can be soothing...n
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: habits :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Lucinda Lavender: allows room to question with the mind
Pila Mulligan: are you familiar with the term snaskara?
Pila Mulligan: sanskara*
Lucinda Lavender: what does it mean?
Pila Mulligan: Meher Baba wrote a lot about sanskara
Pila Mulligan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskara
Pila Mulligan: the imprints left on the subconscious mind by experience in this or previous lives, which then color all of life, one's nature, responses, states of mind, etc.
Calvino Rabeni: I have been discussing a book with a friend - about a woman who has a memory that is not capable of forgetting anything
Calvino Rabeni: We rely so much on forgetting, not knowing things anymore
Pila Mulligan: "The mental processes are partly dependent upon the immediately given objective situation, and partly dependent upon the functioning of accumulated sanskaras or impressions of previous experience... From the psychogenetic point of view, human actions are based upon the operation of the impressions stored in the mind through previous experience"
Pila Mulligan: that would present a problem
Pila Mulligan: overloaded
Calvino Rabeni: "To Forget is To Forgive"
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: some research suggests a function of dreams is to sift through our sensory impressions in order to associate them with prior impressions and prioritize them for recollection and future availability
Calvino Rabeni: A life organized around the inability to forget - would be a very different life than what nearly everyone has learned to handle
Pila Mulligan: I think one of Heinlein's books had a character with that same problem
Pila Mulligan: seem to recall
Calvino Rabeni: http://www.amazon.com/Woman-Who-Cant...8121692&sr=8-4
Calvino Rabeni: This is a case study of something unusual
Lucinda Lavender: past experiences that are connected to desires
Pila Mulligan: :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperthymesia same
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Calvino Rabeni: It seems to me, humans haven't come to terms yet with the hyperthmesia provided by their media, now that it is getting personal
Calvino Rabeni: Dare I say "logging" :) ?
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: the pillars did not quake
Calvino Rabeni: Not yet, but they might before we forget - oh, that's never ... :)
Calvino Rabeni: Luckily the "read-back" function is still quite limited
Calvino Rabeni: who has the time for it ... but what about in the future, when we have semantic machines to constantly ruminate over all those recorded memories?
Calvino Rabeni: BTW, do you believe, that personal dreams are remembered to the degree that waking experiences are?
Pila Mulligan: is that a question or an exclamation, Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: A question
Lucinda Lavender: I only remember certain dreams...
Pila Mulligan: I'd say yes in some cases
Lucinda Lavender: for me they are pretty vivid
Pila Mulligan: depends on the lucidity :)
Lucinda Lavender: that makes sense to me
Lucinda Lavender: more consciousness involved in seeing.
Calvino Rabeni: It seems, waking life is rather non-lucid a great deal of the time
Lucinda Lavender: nodding to that...
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: so are dreams
Pila Mulligan: but then there are exceptions for both sides
Lucinda Lavender: In dreams where there is a changing view of something I think I experience more lucidity.
Lucinda Lavender: I slow down and allow the view more time.
stevenaia Michinaga: so you can slow time in a dream?
Pila Mulligan: interesting
Lucinda Lavender: when I notice something in a dream...it sometimes feels like the unknown...that is when the slowing ocurrs.
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: "etymology: Latin lucidus, from lucēre -- 1. a. suffused with light ; luminous b. translucent 2. having full use of one's faculties ; sane " -- maybe the pace relates to the quality of light in the dream
Lucinda Lavender: like getting a large dose of light! Knowlege?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pila Mulligan: more light as in more perception
Pila Mulligan: ever notice that light switches often do not function in dreams?
Lucinda Lavender: :)))
Lucinda Lavender: Have not tried them yet.
Calvino Rabeni: What are the prospects for increased lucidity in waking life? (Is what I'm wondering)
Pila Mulligan: similar, I'd say Cal
Calvino Rabeni: yeah
Pila Mulligan: we can do things to enhance lucidity
Calvino Rabeni: being reminded is not enough
Pila Mulligan: if you act on being rmeinded however ...
Calvino Rabeni: I'd say so much depends on learned skills of perception
Pila Mulligan: yes
Calvino Rabeni: that is, a reminder isn't effective, unless the response is to bring some skills into play
Pila Mulligan: there you go :)
Calvino Rabeni: it is not at all like, just being reminded to be aware, makes anything immediately possible
stevenaia Michinaga: night all, my avaitar and RL me are both sleepie
Pila Mulligan: sweet dreams Steve
Lucinda Lavender: See you Steve:)
Calvino Rabeni: Good night - may lucidity follow you :)
Lucinda Lavender: my first thought was something about the heartbeat.
Pila Mulligan: in relation to .... (heartbeat)?
Calvino Rabeni: For instance, you can be driving and not notice the lake, and be reminded to notice it, but can't be reminded to see it as if you're not already familiar with it
Lucinda Lavender: ot sure...just a reminder of aliveness and then not sure what else.
Pila Mulligan: ah, heartbeat as a reminder
Pila Mulligan: or perception as a rmeinder
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, a reminder - but then what ...
Lucinda Lavender: trusting aliveness
Calvino Rabeni: so much emotional coloring of perception, seems automatic
Pila Mulligan: dreams may be instructive here, as the lucidity always cycles with the less lucid it seems
Pila Mulligan: by their contrast we notice their qualities
Lucinda Lavender: back and forth or in and out
Pila Mulligan: yep
Calvino Rabeni: like, say, a relative or acquaintance one finds annoying in some way - it seems to take great skill to be able to not have that reaction if it is habitual
Pila Mulligan: same with waking
Lucinda Lavender: feels like surfacing in water
Pila Mulligan: true Cal
Pila Mulligan: or a lawyer and a nun
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Pila Mulligan: the eeek reaction
Lucinda Lavender: you know...I am kind of slow...maybe that helps:)
Calvino Rabeni: And on another level - I'd say, it breaks the flow of experience to even begin to make conscious decisions about managing that experience
Lucinda Lavender: laughing
Calvino Rabeni: And in general, I'd say that was for most people, somewhat unpleasant ?
Calvino Rabeni: Something to resist
Calvino Rabeni: There almost seems a built-in relationship between being aware, and there being problems or something "broken" about experience
Calvino Rabeni: It's like, experiences is a flow, a boat that rides down the stream of life, and when it runs aground, that's conscious awareness
Lucinda Lavender: Because subjectivity feels like separation from something?
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Good point - that seems like a part of it surely
Lucinda Lavender: frome movement to placement
Calvino Rabeni: The kind of speculative awareness that happens here at PAB - kind of splitting, stepping back with part of oneself to see what the other part is doing - might be experienced as pretty unnatural in that it breaks the unity and flow of experience
Calvino Rabeni: If it achieves useful analytical results, that might be one way to justify it
Calvino Rabeni: but as an experience alone ... or for it's own sake - it is hard to make the case for it
Pila Mulligan: it is a helpful yoga in my view, not a mental stimulant
Calvino Rabeni: for people not already somehow inclined to like it
Lucinda Lavender: except that when I step back I see myself as a body in a house on a planet in a solar system with emptiness and the truth of that seems very shal we say dreamy.
Calvino Rabeni: What can be done to make that experience more palatable?
Pila Mulligan: words do not need stimulation, the mind is usually pretty well-pressurized with them -- it is the body's need for balance that these pauses assist
Calvino Rabeni: Because I was thinking back to your comment earlier about habits being healthy
Calvino Rabeni: And manipulating one's own awareness could be done in a healthy way, or an unhealthy one, in my opinion
Pila Mulligan: stepping back allows better sense of emptiness with the moment, in Lucinda's comment
Calvino Rabeni: Like Will, it could be a knife that cuts the holder a little
Pila Mulligan: the dreamy lucidity
Pila Mulligan: that to me is balancing light
Pila Mulligan: physically, not mentally
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Calvino Rabeni: As I interpret that idea Pila, every mental act is at the same time a physical act , and it matters how it is enacted
Lucinda Lavender: I am beginning to think about leaving...I have the opportunity to listen to music in a bit so I shall go.
Pila Mulligan: well, you may be missing the part about mental arising from physical
Pila Mulligan: nice to see you Lucinda
Pila Mulligan: I mhope enjoy the music and your evening
Lucinda Lavender: yes nice to see you Pila!
Pila Mulligan: bye for now
Calvino Rabeni: Bye, Cinda, have a good time !
Lucinda Lavender: Thank both of you for this interesting look at it all...
Pila Mulligan: and thank you
Pila Mulligan: remembering pace
Pila Mulligan: :)
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Lucinda Lavender: ok over and out
Pila Mulligan: roger
Calvino Rabeni: roger :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Lucinda Lavender: Cal do I have to save this somehow before leaving pab?
Calvino Rabeni: No
Lucinda Lavender: it is brobably in my email...
Calvino Rabeni: It will send you the link in email
Calvino Rabeni: when the session ends
Lucinda Lavender: good.
Lucinda Lavender: super!
Pila Mulligan: in morse code it would be dah-di-dah (K = end)
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: -.-. --.-
Pila Mulligan: -.-
Pila Mulligan: that was a long long time ago for me :)
Pila Mulligan: amature radio
Pila Mulligan: 1950's
Calvino Rabeni: A long time indeed
Pila Mulligan: funny to even remember it
Calvino Rabeni: Recalling your statement, can you say more about it?
Calvino Rabeni: the mental arising from the physical
Pila Mulligan: -.-. --.- -.. . .-- -. ...- .- n. -.--
Pila Mulligan: :) sorry reminiscing
Pila Mulligan: sure, physical gives rise to mental
Pila Mulligan: and the older I get the more it seems to hold true
Calvino Rabeni: I don't see them as separate, but they do work together
Pila Mulligan: cranky old futs for example
Pila Mulligan: they are cranky because they are sore
Pila Mulligan: sore physically = sopre meotionally
Pila Mulligan: sore emotionally*
Pila Mulligan: they are inseparable :0
Calvino Rabeni: it's not such a closed system however
Pila Mulligan: but the mond is less capable in relieveing the physical tha vice versa
Pila Mulligan: mind*
Pila Mulligan: as oyu said reminders alone are just that
Calvino Rabeni: body pain .... need not lead to curmigeonhood
Pila Mulligan: true, in a kind or gregarious person the body pain like any subjectivity gets subdued consciously
Pila Mulligan: for the benefit of socialization
Pila Mulligan: but I feel meher baba's idea of sanskara is rooted in the physical -- like scars
Pila Mulligan: we have ingrained body tensions
Pila Mulligan: nearly invisble to the consious mind
Pila Mulligan: the lawyer's reaction to the nun in court was visceral
Calvino Rabeni: Yes but we have body mechanisms to process or heal them
Calvino Rabeni: And if those get stuck, we have various practices to make up for it
Pila Mulligan: if we do them :)
Pila Mulligan: we also have asprin, alcohol, drugs and violence
Pila Mulligan: as outlets for them
Pila Mulligan: or treatments
Calvino Rabeni: Not effective
Pila Mulligan: well, of dooubtful value at least :)
Calvino Rabeni: Of doubful ability to relieve
Pila Mulligan: the yoag practices are more likeky to rrelieve
Pila Mulligan: yogaic*
Pila Mulligan: yogic*
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: typic
Calvino Rabeni: If done well, I think
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: You might have some ideas about that?
Pila Mulligan: about ...?
Pila Mulligan: done well?
Calvino Rabeni: Effective practice, e.g. tai chi, yoga
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Pila Mulligan: ahh, I avoid the term effective (heavy social baggagae) so I will choose done well :)
Pila Mulligan: an exercise done well is healthy :)
Calvino Rabeni: As you wish - take the meaning, not the word :)
Pila Mulligan: the idea of healthy is of course subjective too, but it is a guide that can be readily understoood in most cases
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I agree, but what if someone said - I don't understand, how can I tell if it is healthy or not ?
Pila Mulligan: a legitimate question
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Long term results? Assessments in-the-moment?
Pila Mulligan: the value is often concealed
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Pila Mulligan: I suppose we maintain a personal idea of what is healthy or valuable in that regard and simply do what we can to follow it
Pila Mulligan: healers usually seem to have their own myhtology of what works
Pila Mulligan: the value is if it really works
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, they do, but some are also teachers, and it is something that could be communicated, even if subtle
Pila Mulligan: and then there is the really long term value :)
Pila Mulligan: is something good for the body also good for the soul?
Pila Mulligan: if you take Jesus as an example, with crdence to the story, not always
Calvino Rabeni: I would say yes usually
Pila Mulligan: not to soound evangelical here, just a quick example
Pila Mulligan: yes, usually, I agree
Pila Mulligan: bt in some cases ethics sacrifices the body for a non-physical value
Calvino Rabeni: And maybe certain cases are exceptions
Pila Mulligan: yes, exceptions
Pila Mulligan: not many though I'd say
Calvino Rabeni: right, the bizarre cases, that seem like standouts, probably aren't a good basis for daily living
Pila Mulligan: when what is taught is put into practice it involves subjectivity
Pila Mulligan: that is also a basis for ethics :)
Calvino Rabeni: yes, what about that?
Pila Mulligan: I may give you an energy transmimssion that allows you to heal your sore toe
Pila Mulligan: but you may eventually use it to rob a bank
Calvino Rabeni: There's no time when anything is not subjective - it isn't like it exists in a pure state then gets degraded somehow
Pila Mulligan: subjectivity can take things up or down, for sure
Calvino Rabeni: Subjectivity - what is that distinguished from?
Pila Mulligan: objectivity, in rhetoric :)
Calvino Rabeni: e.g. one could just say Knowing
Pila Mulligan: perhaps
Pila Mulligan: one must first know what knowing means :)
Calvino Rabeni: Really, or are you joking ::) ?
Pila Mulligan: it is ironic isn't it
Pila Mulligan: what does knowing mean to Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: Only if there is an expectation of it being possible
Pila Mulligan: is it possible to know what knowing means
Calvino Rabeni: A direct experience of whether something is healthy or not, for example
Calvino Rabeni: with all its possibility of misunderstanding
Pila Mulligan: well, starting from the extreme, it is not physically healthy to be cruelly tortured
Pila Mulligan: yet it is physically healthy to do breathiing exercies appropriate to your condition
Calvino Rabeni: I'd guess, why should we wonder if we can know knowing, rather than just going ahead and knowing what we need to know ?
Pila Mulligan: so in the spectrum we can evaluate various acts
Pila Mulligan: knowing the obvious
Pila Mulligan: that's the simplest
Pila Mulligan: obvious = what we need to know
Calvino Rabeni: Philosophers like to consider the extreme cases, but they don't have that much bearing on life as it is lived
Calvino Rabeni: The extreme cases just render the logic more stereotyped
Pila Mulligan: to me there is a fairly extensive gray area of things that we may see but not really understand
Calvino Rabeni: but in doing so, sacrifice realism and applicability
Pila Mulligan: knowing and not knwoing, seeing but not groking
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I agree, actually it's all gray area
Pila Mulligan: except perhaps at the edges :)
Calvino Rabeni: in that the black and white are artificial
Pila Mulligan: dropping an anvil on your toe is fairly obvious in these terms
Pila Mulligan: but the elaboration of conditions not so extreme is less certain
Calvino Rabeni: right, but, it isn't very effective to say - you'll do fine in life, just don't drop anvils on your toe
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: as noted above, I'm not very effective
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Um, like that was the end of the matter, and no more can be said or learned
Pila Mulligan: this phase of our conversation evolved from the idea of subjectivity
Calvino Rabeni: Do you mean, not effective in practice, or not effective in explaining?
Pila Mulligan: both
Pila Mulligan: my ubsjectivity excludes effectiveness as a value
Calvino Rabeni: I'd rather have as a teacher, someone effective in practice but poor in explaining, to the other way around
Pila Mulligan: thast's nice
Pila Mulligan: what then would effecitve in practice mean?
Calvino Rabeni: Oh, I thought we were going to forget that word and think about what it means instead :)
Calvino Rabeni: Ok, call it the E-Factor
Calvino Rabeni: Suppose someone has the E-Factor with respect to their practice
Calvino Rabeni: And they have students, and it is their job to communicate
Calvino Rabeni: such that the students can somehow also have the E-Factor
Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe, they already do - but don't know how to identify it
Calvino Rabeni: as these things are inconsistent while being learned
Pila Mulligan: actually I was mostly interested in hearing how you describe a teacher "effective in practice" :)
Calvino Rabeni: I would guess, that the principles are the same for different realms of experience
Pila Mulligan: more as a disambiguation of the value
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, for example, one who can do quality Tai Chi
Calvino Rabeni: Or as a student, can learn rapidly
Pila Mulligan: a quality such as healthy for exmaple
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Pila Mulligan: ok, healthy tai chi has menaing to me :)
Calvino Rabeni: I believr, it is a mistake, to consider qualities as something "merely" subjective
Pila Mulligan: subjectively :)
Pila Mulligan: but I do it anyway
Calvino Rabeni: without its physical embodiment
Pila Mulligan: I agree there are consistent conditins in physical embodiement but to me it is difficult to find consistency in describing them
Pila Mulligan: like the blind men and the lephant
Calvino Rabeni: Are there some qualities associated with "healthy"
Pila Mulligan: subjectively, I see such qualities associate dwith healthy, yes
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps consistency of description is a hobgoblin :)
Pila Mulligan: description per see id somewhat demoinc
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but why say, subjectively ?
Pila Mulligan: ever heard an eye witness in a court room?
Calvino Rabeni: Don't you believe the qualities to be physically present and observable?
Pila Mulligan: they are indeed, buit no dscribable :)
Pila Mulligan: not*
Calvino Rabeni: Agree, but what then ? The teacher still has the same job
Pila Mulligan: lawyer use the term *percipient* witness
Pila Mulligan: a witness observing or perceiving an act or event
Calvino Rabeni: of communicating the experience and pracitce
Pila Mulligan: even expert witnesses usually disagree
Pila Mulligan: oin some points
Calvino Rabeni: even when it's regarded as ultimately futile to describe a quality
Calvino Rabeni: Is that really a problem?
Pila Mulligan: as social beings human communicate all the time
Pila Mulligan: it is only a problem when the reuslt is unhealthy
Calvino Rabeni: Sure, we communicate all the time, in spite of the fact, that nearly all experience is unsayable, undescribable
Pila Mulligan: :0
Pila Mulligan: our mind is well pressuirzed with words
Calvino Rabeni: So perhaps it might be "healthy" to stop worrying about that description problem
Pila Mulligan: ok
Calvino Rabeni: and let go of the pressure of words
Pila Mulligan: ok
Calvino Rabeni: The descriptive power of language - is it not an overrated, unrealistic fantasy?
Calvino Rabeni: No one has every been able to describe a quality anyway
Pila Mulligan: poetry can be evocative
Pila Mulligan: did ou see the PBS series on Buddha?
Pila Mulligan: you*
Calvino Rabeni: the only things that can be described, are factual and quantitiative
Pila Mulligan: recently
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Luckily there is the poetic mode of language to rely on - were it not for that, we would be in extremely sorry circumstances :)
Pila Mulligan: http://www.pbs.org/thebuddha/miracles/
Pila Mulligan: quoting W.S. Merwin, poet: "The great field of knowledge is as tiny as the earth is in the universe. I mean it's tiny…it's a speck, and the universe is what we don't know, and it will always be that way; however much we find out, it will still be that way because the unknown is vastly, it's unspeakably greater than anything we will ever know."
Calvino Rabeni: No, tell me about it ?
Pila Mulligan: Merwin was just named US Poet Laureate
Pila Mulligan: a Zen Buddhist
Calvino Rabeni: I sort of agree with that quote = but would be happier if the word "undescribable" was substituted for "unknown"
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: because it would still be true
Pila Mulligan: he probably would ont argue
Calvino Rabeni: and soemwhat more representative of real life
Pila Mulligan: I tihnk they were discussing miracles in relation to nowledge at that pojt
Pila Mulligan: point*
Pila Mulligan: "the whole unknown time and space has led down to this…has led to this very moment where we're sitting here talking, when we are sitting here talking to each other, is utterly miraculous."
Pila Mulligan: Zen Poet :)
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
Calvino Rabeni: Indescribable and bottomless
Pila Mulligan: like Wol's pajamas
Calvino Rabeni: heheh
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Or more so
Pila Mulligan: perhaps :)
Pila Mulligan: but, restoring an earlier topic, my persistent eblief is that however we relate to communication, health is largely related to the physical
Calvino Rabeni: yes ... I agree ... my question was, how to communicate that belief
Pila Mulligan: a lng term question I'd say
Calvino Rabeni: or, rather, beyond that as a bare statement, what more is there to say?
Pila Mulligan: here we ran into subjectivty :)
Calvino Rabeni: Like - who is buried in grant's tomb
Calvino Rabeni: Not that again :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Well can we just sneak by it this time ?
Pila Mulligan: the tomb may just possibly have no occupant
Pila Mulligan: I never eally liked Grant that much
Calvino Rabeni: Metaphorically
Calvino Rabeni: health is related to the physical
Pila Mulligan: well, the metaphor ilustrates a self-answering question
Pila Mulligan: health i slargely a self-evident condition
Pila Mulligan: but not entirely
Calvino Rabeni: so the grant's tomb idea is - ok, then, how about being aware of one's body, as a step towards knowing what is healthy?
Pila Mulligan: yes, defintiely a helpful idea
Pila Mulligan: and there is where I say the 9 second pause really operates
Calvino Rabeni: Self evident, if the self looks at the evidence?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Not a guaranteed thing
Pila Mulligan: yep
Calvino Rabeni: that sounds right
Pila Mulligan: reminders are simply reminders
Calvino Rabeni: they are like a check - you still need money in the bank to cash them
Pila Mulligan: chekcing your balance
Calvino Rabeni: :))
Calvino Rabeni: OK, so "balance" seems a quality aspect of being healthy
Pila Mulligan: in your practice you may have seen how a body has a metaphorical shape, like an aura
Pila Mulligan: a mixture of chi, posture, etc
Calvino Rabeni: Poise, flexibility, strength, relaxation, ...
Pila Mulligan: a comunicative impression of well-being
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Pila Mulligan: well, that is also valuabel to cultivate
Pila Mulligan: healthy
Pila Mulligan: but what about Stephen Hawking
Pila Mulligan: there are always limits
Pila Mulligan: so we do what we can
Calvino Rabeni: we can use a word like "freedom" in that regard
Pila Mulligan: :)
Calvino Rabeni: A healthy person has a greater sense of freedom
Calvino Rabeni: An ill person feels or is, narrowed in what is possible
Pila Mulligan: my guess is that Stephen Hawking has a unique personal condition of well-being
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: less obvious but quite real
Calvino Rabeni: What do you see in Hawking?
Calvino Rabeni: (and I can tell about an analogous example)
Pila Mulligan: well, I'm not able to say with certainty, but he communicates an impression of well-being comparable to what we tlaked about earlier, but plainly not physical
Pila Mulligan: not just a vocal thing of course
Pila Mulligan: an impression
Calvino Rabeni: of course, even though the voice is a holistic reflection of overall health
Pila Mulligan: yes but I believe his voice is synthetic
Calvino Rabeni: My example - I know a man crippled by infant polio, never grew much, or able to walk
Calvino Rabeni: but, he functions skillfully as a public speaker
Calvino Rabeni: and his voice has great dynamic range and ability to communicate feeling
Calvino Rabeni: but of course, so much of that is also about understanding and insight backing up the expression
Pila Mulligan: yes
Calvino Rabeni: so there's a strength and healthiness belying the state of his physical form
Pila Mulligan: yep
Calvino Rabeni: and in that way, making a contrast, that helps me see those qualities as exceptional
Calvino Rabeni: and somehow related to health, or maybe charisma
Pila Mulligan: knowing what is healthy needs an open mind then
Calvino Rabeni: Yes true
Calvino Rabeni: A way of being perceptive?
Pila Mulligan needs to move his carcass around some now, do some tai chi, eat, sleep :)
Pila Mulligan: nice chatting with you Calvino
Pila Mulligan: bye for now :)