2010.07.22 13:00 - Theme session: "starting at the end"

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Yaku and Genesis organized this theme session with the title: "starting at the end".

greetings

Pila Mulligan: hi adoro
adoro Rhapsody: hi pila
--BELL--
adoro Rhapsody: r u piet hut ?
Pila Mulligan: hi Yak
Yakuzza Lethecus: good day/evening everyone
Pila Mulligan: no, Piet's avi is named Pema
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: good day
Pila Mulligan: oh, excuse me, there he is :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Bleu
Pema Pera: hi everybody!
adoro Rhapsody: pema is piet hut ?
Pila Mulligan: didn't see you Pema, hi
Pila Mulligan: yes
Bleu Oleander: hi all :)
Pila Mulligan: and vice versa
adoro Rhapsody: dutch piet ?
Pema Pera: me and the Tao . . . .
adoro Rhapsody: the original
Pila Mulligan: adoro is also Dutch
adoro Rhapsody: yes
adoro Rhapsody: and i like tao also
Lia Rikugun: hello
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi lia
Bleu Oleander: hi Lia
Pema Pera: Hi Lia, Bruce, Eliza!
adoro Rhapsody: hi lia
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, strange sight here... some are levitating and some are sitting near cushions...
Eliza Madrigal: Hi, though :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: Hi Arch and Agatha!
Bleu Oleander: hi Bruce, Eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi bruce, eliza
adoro Rhapsody: the hop stadium
Yakuzza Lethecus: arch and agatha
adoro Rhapsody: hi bruce
Agatha Macbeth: Hi everybody :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi hihihihiihihi! everyone!
Agatha Macbeth: brb
Bleu Oleander: hey Agatha, Arch
Pila Mulligan: hi bruce, eliza
Eliza Madrigal: oh my... am mid air. I may have to re log :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Agatha, Arch
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Koya.
Pila Mulligan: hi Gaya
Bleu Oleander: hi Gaya
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi koya,blub and gaya :)
Pema Pera: mhi Gaya!
Agatha Macbeth: back
Pema Pera: and Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb
Agatha Macbeth: Hello gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello everyone :)
Lia Rikugun: hello hello
Archmage Atlantis: Koya says 'nice to be seen"
Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder where gen is
Pila Mulligan: hi Scathach
Bleu Oleander: perhaps she's starting at the end :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi scathach
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Scath :)
Agatha Macbeth: Probably making a dramatic entrance :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)
adoro Rhapsody: hi scath
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Scàth
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb eliza
Pema Pera: hi Scathach and wb Eliza
Yakuzza Lethecus: i wonder at what point i shall start
adoro Rhapsody: hi eliza
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Eliza :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: waiting until 1:10 ?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Everyone :))
Agatha Macbeth: Return of the Liz
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Start at the end, Yaku.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Pila Mulligan: Bruce, what is Ram Dass Day?
Yakuzza Lethecus: i better don´t joke like ,,bye everyone" :)
Agatha Macbeth: Or in the middle
Bruce Mowbray: I don't know. It was Blb's idea.
Lia Rikugun: was thinking the same yaku :)
Eliza Madrigal: hehe Ya
Bleu Oleander: ha! Yaku
Pema Pera: hi Eos!
Pila Mulligan: hi Eos
Archmage Atlantis: Oh, man.....no matter what I do, I nver get to make a dramatic entrance......it is bad enough to be disadvantaged....but to be gay, with no drama......eeks?
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Eos.
Gaya Ethaniel: Gosh, I have given birth to Eos.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
Agatha Macbeth: Could be Arch
Eliza Madrigal: quite a feat Gaya :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Eos
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi eos
adoro Rhapsody: hieos
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha! You're among friends, Eos.
Gaya Ethaniel: yeah who would have thought! Hello Eos :)
Pema Pera: The Earth giving birth to the Sun . . .
Agatha Macbeth zooms in on Ram Dass
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Eos
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Eos Amaterasu: sorry for such an auspicious entrance
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Looks like Karl Marx...
adoro Rhapsody: Hagen dass
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Blub says: What!? I got the wrong guy??
Agatha Macbeth: Shucks
Pila Mulligan: hi Cal
Bleu Oleander: hi Cal
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi cal
adoro Rhapsody: hi cal
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Calvino :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Calvino.
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Calwino
Pema Pera: hi Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: Hi everyone; I wait for you to appear :)
Archmage Atlantis: While we wait, .....what is a Rubyist?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well Pema only wears Ruby rather than diamonds etc. :P
Agatha Macbeth is an Emeraldist
Pema Pera: :-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi morgano and i wonder if gen is comming
Yakuzza Lethecus: so i´ll start
Pema Pera: only on Tuesdays, Gaya
Pila Mulligan: hi morgano
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Morg
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello morgano :)
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Pema Pera: somebody who likes to write computer programs in the language Ruby, Arch
morgano Bravin: Hello all
Archmage Atlantis: In his RL pics, I see no gem stones......
Archmage Atlantis: Ah
Gaya Ethaniel: heheheh

Yaku introduces the idea of "starting at the end" and the question if it is possible to start at the end without having a strong background of contemplative ideas

Yakuzza Lethecus: since i came to play as being i had my first experiences with different contemplative idea´s
Yakuzza Lethecus: i often wonder if and how to communicate with ppl who studied contemplative idea´s for decades
Yakuzza Lethecus: are they more enlightened ?
Archmage Atlantis: No, Yaku.....only have more data
Yakuzza Lethecus: how to get a sense on contemplation
Pila Mulligan: hi Darren
Yakuzza Lethecus: so during the malta retreat pema talked about ,,starting in the end"
Archmage Atlantis: enlightenment is something that does not require data
Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi darren :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Darren
Pema Pera: hi Darren!
adoro Rhapsody: hi dar
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: which is also a tricklish subject for me since ,,what is what we are looking for?"
Calvino Rabeni: By the way, could someone with a good graphics please take a pic or two of this meeting, to attach to the chat log?
Lia Rikugun: (will do)
Yakuzza Lethecus: having little information on individual contemplative idea´s and little own experiences make it extremely hard to ,,imaginate a start in the end"
Yakuzza Lethecus: so what is it what one is grasping for, is everything already there ?
adoro Rhapsody: nature is perfect
Yakuzza Lethecus: do we need to know 159 koan´s to know about ? until we have a sense ?
Pila Mulligan: hi Ewan
Yakuzza Lethecus: so that´s how i would like to start the discussion :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi ewan
Pema Pera: hi Ewan!
Agatha Macbeth waves to Ewan quietly
Eliza Madrigal: wow Yakuzza, what a wonderful frame
Ewan Bonham: Hi folks!
Darren Islar: hi Ewan
Archmage Atlantis: To me, a good start, Yaku
Pema Pera: thank you, Yaku
Eos Amaterasu: Perhaps in this case "start at the end" is the one koan to know or to be
adoro Rhapsody: good starting point
adoro Rhapsody: reversed discussing

is there any path? the end = the beginning??

Pema Pera: one way to approach it is to ask what the alternative could be -- how could we not start at the end? What would it mean to walk a long path? from where to where? to get what?
Ewan Bonham: Are you saying Pema, it is more the journey than the desination?
Pema Pera: not quite
Pema Pera: although that is interesting in itself
Ewan Bonham: oh
Archmage Atlantis: I have to interject
Lia Rikugun: i had a thought about the starting at the end: That I never feel being at the end, I always feel being at the beginning
Calvino Rabeni: It often happens that way in conversation - as one assumes nothing is understood yet and you don't know if you can "get there" with the communication
Pema Pera: rather not even the journey -- since we are already there
Archmage Atlantis: We are at the end
Archmage Atlantis: it is seeing the journey
Ewan Bonham: Oh IC
Pema Pera: but Lia can be right too!
adoro Rhapsody: every end is a new beginning
Pema Pera: this "end" is beyond all oppositions
Pema Pera: beyond all dualities
Darren Islar: how do we start there Pema?
Gaya Ethaniel: But studying and familiarising with practice is 'walking on the path'. To say that everything is perfect and there is nothing to do is misguiding. The phrase itself implies a kind of path, 'start' & 'end'.
Archmage Atlantis: I think "multiplicites" these days
adoro Rhapsody: me too
Calvino Rabeni: Yes arch same here
Ewan Bonham: Yes, Gaya
adoro Rhapsody: there are different ways and different ends
Ewan Bonham: too simplistic
morgano Bravin: maybe the end is the begining of the path without struggle?
Pema Pera: perhaps not starting, Darren, but being there
Gaya Ethaniel: Seeing and manifesting are different ... I guess 'starting at the end' refers more to the seeing part.
Darren Islar: how?
Ewan Bonham: hmmmmorg
Pema Pera: already
Darren Islar: I don't know how?
Archmage Atlantis: Agree Gaya, seeing and manifesting are different

"whatever we practice we really don't go anywhere"

Eos Amaterasu: it's probably easier to be "at the end" than it is to "see the end"
adoro Rhapsody: involutin, the way back
Eos Amaterasu: giving up seeing the end is a kind of beginner's mind
Eos Amaterasu: which allows the n aivete tobe the end
Pema Pera: I don't know how either . . . so we can drop our concerns of wanting to know how
Darren Islar: because if it is that easy, why aren't we at the end or know we are there
Pila Mulligan: maybe the idea is to suggest that whatever we practice we really don't go anywhere
Gaya Ethaniel: Be at the end yes same as seeing at the end to me ... what by manifestation I didn't mean resting at the end.
Darren Islar: maybe that is the path?
Gaya Ethaniel: Embodying rather ...
Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome slave
Darren Islar: hi Greybeard
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hi everyone
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hi darren
Archmage Atlantis: Some of you think the singularity will solve this......and I am no slave
Lia Rikugun: not seeing the end but being there i need to think about this,
Agatha Macbeth watches Slave kneel ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Slave, will give you a note about our topic today
adoro Rhapsody: hi
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: thx
Yakuzza Lethecus: i did that already

any particular world view? what exactly is starting at the end? > "stay in that dropping"

Gaya Ethaniel: So my question to clarify would be, starting at the end refers to a world view?
Archmage Atlantis: Nor were the people my ggggrandparents seemed to own
Eos Amaterasu: probably easier to give up any world view as it comes up than to figure out the "end" world view
Archmage Atlantis: It was physical ownership, not spiritual ownershi
Pema Pera: yes, the "end" is the end of duality . . .
Eos Amaterasu: then, as Lia suggests, we're always at the beginning,not knowing ahead of time
Darren Islar: how is that easier Eos, since we seem to be clinging on to those views and don't know any better?
Bleu Oleander: what is meant by duality?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well I do wonder ... the view implied by 'starting at the end'. There is a view there.
Eos Amaterasu: as soon as you notice such a view,you've already dropped it
Eos Amaterasu: stay in that dropping
Lia Rikugun: end and beginning is the same place :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes, a view of Completeness
Pema Pera: concepts, words, anything in terms of opposites, this vs. that
Darren Islar: in my 'view' you have labeled it, not dropped it
Pema Pera: and there is no viewer . . .
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes that's what I read in too Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: viewerless view
Gaya Ethaniel: It's strage for me to say there is no view implied in 'starting at the end'.

I like the next statement and want to emphasize it and I need to rethink this: "as soon as you label it your are not longer absorbed in it"  (as soon as you give it a name you make it different from yourself, it is put in a catergy somewhere outside)

Eos Amaterasu: as soon as you label it your are not longer absorbed in it
Pema Pera: yes, words miss the point, but that's all we can do: using words to point beyond words
Eos Amaterasu: though you may get absorbed in the label
Darren Islar: right Gaya
Gaya Ethaniel: So ... why label 'start' &'end'?
Darren Islar: then how do we get beyond words?
Eos Amaterasu: because we've already labelled those
morgano Bravin: a completeness that allows freedom to drop without trying,,and a new openness in absorbtion of what is around,,and real
adoro Rhapsody: than we can also label middle
Yakuzza Lethecus: good question gaya, i also think of the end as ,,just be"
Pema Pera: yes, without trying is the key
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: where it leads back to no time
Pila Mulligan: Lao Tse: "Like a newborn babe before it learns to smile, I am alone, without a place to go."
Eos Amaterasu was picturing Pila as a newborn.... :-)
Gaya Ethaniel: [13:29] Eos Amaterasu: because we've already labelled those
Archmage Atlantis: It is rare to be here with you, Pila.......it is 7:30 AM in Hawaii?
Eliza Madrigal: innocent Pila...
Gaya Ethaniel: Could you say more about this point please Eos?
Eos Amaterasu: "end' and "beginning" are our labels
adoro Rhapsody: i have to go tomorrow ends my working week and starts my holiday for 2 weeks.
Eos Amaterasu: so they can serve as convenient book-ends, and create a cute little koan
Eliza Madrigal: have a lovely holiday adoro, thanks for coming
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Lia Rikugun: have nice holidays adoro
Eos Amaterasu: but those are just 2 of many bookends, and 1 of many koans
morgano Bravin: bye adoro
Bruce Mowbray: Happy Holiday, adoro!
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Ade
morgano Bravin: have a nice holiday
Gaya Ethaniel: Yep so it may not resonate with everyone.
Darren Islar: by doro
Pema Pera: indeed, Gaya
Eos Amaterasu: There's also other approaches to the end and the beginning
Eos Amaterasu: Bruce and I were talking yesterday about how we know something is "trash" (trash = not the end)
Eos Amaterasu: we _already_ know when something is not the end, so we must already know something about the end
Eos Amaterasu: so just stay there
Eos Amaterasu: but you recognize it more easily through bookends
Darren Islar: that sounds like the beginning of a method
Pema Pera: :)
Calvino Rabeni: There's not just trying and not-trying; there are trying that does not "split" into dualism
Pila Mulligan: how about the metaphor of a sculptor starting their work ... where do they end?
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Gen!
Pila Mulligan: hi genesisi
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Gen :))
Darren Islar: can a sculpter end before he begins
Pema Pera: hi Gen
Yakuzza Lethecus: hi gen
Darren Islar: hi Gen
Bleu Oleander: hi Gen
Agatha Macbeth: Hello Gen
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Gen:)
Archmage Atlantis: My simple mind says "I don't know the answer"...my analytical mine says "well make you best gues"....my heart says "do it if it is correct to do"
Agatha Macbeth: Ouch
Eliza Madrigal: So glad you made it Gen, no worries
Pila Mulligan: ending before beginning may not be the idea, Darren
Eliza Madrigal: I'll giive you a note of the session so far
Darren Islar: not to me no :)
Darren Islar: but here we are starting at the end
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi ara
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey ara
Darren Islar: hi Ara :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: and claire
Pila Mulligan: hi CLaire
Pema Pera: hi Arabella and Claire!
Calvino Rabeni: I thought the session notecard would say - come to the meeting at 2PM SLT, having already been there :)
morgano Bravin: Ciao Arabella
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Ara :) hello Clare
Lia Rikugun: :)
Darren Islar: btw I guess we are deended on a linear time, while we are talking of something quite different
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ara, Claire... wow... hard to find everyone to give a note to :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hard to find cushions too...
Claire Maskelyne: Damn it...
Darren Islar: *dependend
Archmage Atlantis: The force is strong? ( with apologizes to Yoda and Lucas)
Agatha Macbeth: There's a blue one behind Gaya Clare
arabella Ella: thanks Eliza!
Agatha Macbeth: To your left...
Claire Maskelyne: None of the cushions seem to be working.
morgano Bravin: take mine,,I am ok standing
Claire Maskelyne: Well, I suppose I'm here because my existence has been very far from 'playful' recently.
Lia Rikugun: behind me there is one cushion on the left side
Eliza Madrigal: we have enough cushions, no worries morgano ... we start from "enough" :))
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: enough cushion over here
morgano Bravin: :)
Darren Islar: that is a cussion too :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) cooler in there, huh?
Darren Islar: *cushion
Claire Maskelyne: Thi sin spite of my increasingly frantic efforts to be happier...
Agatha Macbeth: And wetter...
Claire Maskelyne: And I know there's something wrong with that as well.
Eos Amaterasu: Gen, when you've caught up, do you want to spend a few minutes on the theme?
Archmage Atlantis: Have an orgasim, that always helps Claire....
Agatha Macbeth: It does?
Bruce Mowbray: Would that be starting at the end?
Agatha Macbeth: Some kinda climax eh
Darren Islar: could be a new beginning
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, it would Bruce
Eos Amaterasu: Post orgasm is a kind of why go anywhere else state
genesis Zhangsun: yes I just got caught up thanks

do you need to study for a long time to become enlightened?  is enlightenment an experience?

genesis Zhangsun: I guess I would go back to Yaku's question about whether you need to study for decades to "become enlightened"
genesis Zhangsun: I guess I would throw out there whether enlightenment is an experience
Pila Mulligan: :)
genesis Zhangsun: an experience by an individual
Bleu Oleander: a process?
--BELL--
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: well what would be enlightend?
Bruce Mowbray thinks: If Shakyamuni Buddha had started at the end, he would have saved himself a lot of sitting under the bodhi tree.
Archmage Atlantis: In my limited experience, enlightenment is a moment of knowing ........the body knows, the mind knows........and, the one thing that separatates it from life in this reality, .......is that the spirit know
Pila Mulligan: maybe sitting under the bodhi tree was the end
Calvino Rabeni: Do we hope - starting at the end might be a way to skip all those decades of study / practice?
Gaya Ethaniel: The narrow sense of enlightenment perhaps doesn't need a 'path' but to be 'in accord with Dao' in one's life, one would need to renew daily ... keep up with it. If that is called path, perhaps there is a sense of linear movement [not progression as such].
Bruce Mowbray: I agree that it was an end in itself, Pila.

using words you get trapped, words are just a hint to what is meant

genesis Zhangsun: enlightenment seems to me to be some sort of ideal, I can feel perfection, I can be perfection but the moment in which I start to describe perfection I am trapped by the duality inherent in the words
Darren Islar: as all things are
Darren Islar: the end
Darren Islar: or the beginning
Agatha Macbeth: Amen
Calvino Rabeni: @gen, how does that work - can't you speak witout getting trapped?
Bruce Mowbray: THIS is it! And THAT! and THAT! and THIS!
Gaya Ethaniel: lol
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Calvino Rabeni: Must the mind have that hypnotic trapping effect ?
Darren Islar: hi Zon
Agatha Macbeth: And the OTHER
Eliza Madrigal: Hey, Zon :)
Bruce Mowbray: Really -- THIS is IT!
Lia Rikugun: hi zon
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey zon
Darren Islar: no it isn't Bruce :)
Gaya Ethaniel: That gets boring after while Bruce :)
genesis Zhangsun: yes so I guess thats the "trick" in a way Calvino seeing the traps and not being trapped
Agatha Macbeth: Hiya Zon
Bruce Mowbray: THIS is ever-new... How could it get boring?
Gaya Ethaniel: Well chasing after insights I meant.
genesis Zhangsun: finding freedom of limits
Bruce Mowbray: off
Pema Pera: hi Zon!
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Zon

what is perfection?

Ewan Bonham: Can i ask , in this context, what do we mean by 'perfection'?
Bruce Mowbray: Starting at the end means, for me, seeing eternity in this moment.
Gaya Ethaniel: 'the end'?
morgano Bravin: reminds me of the mole..under ones feet but out of sight and everyone looking elswhere for something else
genesis Zhangsun: I guess I meant it as a kinf of completeness
arabella Ella: who is it that assesses perfection - each one for themselves?
genesis Zhangsun: *kind
Pila Mulligan: from the T’ai I Chin Hua Tsung Chih: "The holy science takes as a beginning knowing where to stop, and as an end, stopping at the highest good"
Calvino Rabeni: Bruce I like that formulation
Archmage Atlantis: If Wol were here, she would do this.....let me see if I can
Calvino Rabeni: Can you give a ref to that, Pila?
Agatha Macbeth: ??
Bruce Mowbray: Or -- as Ram Dass put it: Being Here Now.
Agatha Macbeth: Ah
Ewan Bonham: Yes, bruce
Archmage Atlantis: Well, gotthe music, just not the dance
Darren Islar: please Arch can you turn that off
Bruce Mowbray: I'm wearing my onigokko but nothing is happening. . .
Agatha Macbeth: Too much lag Arch?
Eos Amaterasu: stop
Gaya Ethaniel: I hear dance music ...
Bruce Mowbray: TY!
Darren Islar: thanks
Agatha Macbeth: Too many Avs
Eos Amaterasu marvels at the power...
Ewan Bonham: ty cause i was listing to gregorian Chant
Darren Islar: (the word wan't used)
Archmage Atlantis: The word? how biblical
Bruce Mowbray: uh. . . oh. . . .
Agatha Macbeth: Thought there was a counter under the Pagoda somewhere...
Eliza Madrigal: Yakuzza, may I ask if what you're been addressing hs been spoken to... perhaps we might focus a bit....
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i thin enligtenment is looking beyond human desire and fear
Ewan Bonham: Slave, that feels right as far as it goes..
Ewan Bonham: Are you saying when suffering ebbs, joy fills in?

"do we need to know 159 koan´s to know about ?" ( wikipedia: koan ) or is there a fixed set of experiences with which we can say "I got it"?

Eos Amaterasu: [13:18] Yakuzza Lethecus: do we need to know 159 koan´s to know about ? until we have a sense ?
Zon Quar: no, 160
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Eliza Madrigal: =P~
Eos Amaterasu: no experience necessary
Lia Rikugun: and we believe you becaus eyou know 159 koans...
Darren Islar: but if we don't do anything we fall back in old patterns
Gaya Ethaniel: No reading list ... no theories ... especially no thinking.
Yakuzza Lethecus: actually, i have the issue that i am also not exposed to these subjects for such a long time, i also loose my orientation
Darren Islar: soI think experience is a great good
Ewan Bonham: Yak... that is why i am here
Yakuzza Lethecus: no it´s about a ,,is there a fixed number of verifiable experiences"
Yakuzza Lethecus: to say ,,you got it", of course not
Eos Amaterasu: ?
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: Ewan I am not saying that. I am saying that enlightenment is thinking more about the whole of things then your own tiny self
Gaya Ethaniel: Experiences are by nature sujective. Can they be verified?
Calvino Rabeni: Yaku, is there some reason to expect that mighyt be the case?
Gaya Ethaniel: Is that important in this type of exploration?
Darren Islar: can starting at the end be verified?
Bruce Mowbray: If I verified my experience, Gaya, would it then be YOUR experience?
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Ewan Bonham: Thank you, Slave...but is there anything beyond our 'self'..
Ewan Bonham: are we not one with all?
Eliza Madrigal: Well, maybe start with what is a koan... a way to see how much we tend to get trapped in dualism...
Yakuzza Lethecus: no of course not it´s just a feeling that when ppl study for decades, is it even possible to communicate on the same eyeline
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: good point ewan
Eos Amaterasu: some shared vocabulary can help inbeing extremely precise, which can help in opening things up at the right moment
--BELL--
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes Eliza ... use language in a differenet way.
Darren Islar: My experience is the only thing I've got, so the only thing I can work with. How can I see beyond that?

maybe enlightenment means someone has "less" of something

Eliza Madrigal: and we tend to think enlightenment is someone who has 'more' of something... maybe it is less... innocent in that way
Eos Amaterasu: perhaps, Yakuzza, what we share is not "things" but the crack in everythinbg
Pema Pera: bye everybody, thanks for a dynamics conversation!
Eos Amaterasu: *everything
morgano Bravin: bye dude
Eos Amaterasu: bye Pema
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
Lia Rikugun: byd pema
Darren Islar: bye Pema
arabella Ella: bye Pema
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye pem
Ewan Bonham: bye, Pema
Agatha Macbeth: Shalom Pem
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye pem
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Pema.
Darren Islar: bye Bleu
Bleu Oleander: bye everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: people who have years of 'training' can be obscured by their training... think it is important to see that
Bleu Oleander: thanks Yaku!
arabella Ella: bye Bleu
Lia Rikugun: bye bleu
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bleu :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleu
Pila Mulligan: bye Bleu
Ewan Bonham: i can attest to that...:)
Eliza Madrigal: no pedestals :) maybe that's part of starting at the end too...
morgano Bravin: bye blue,,thanks Yaku,,a taxing session
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye morgano
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: Ewan I think we are one with our groups we think we belong to Human adults, basebal players, hwatever
Yakuzza Lethecus: and everyone who´s leaving right now
Ewan Bonham: Slave, yes, seeing beyond the surface roles
Archmage Atlantis: That was was a tricky catch, Yaku
Gaya Ethaniel: Good night :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night Gaya :)
Lia Rikugun: (I am lesving too, bedtime, please no byebyes :) see you soon)

I left at this point and will leave the following uncommented

Darren Islar: bye Gaya
Pila Mulligan: bye Gaya
Pila Mulligan: bye Lia
Pila Mulligan: oos
Pila Mulligan: oops*
Agatha Macbeth: Byebye :)
morgano Bravin: bye anyone that is and has left
Zon Quar: bye all who leave and stay
Darren Islar: bye zon
Eliza Madrigal: When we say 'drop what we have to see what we are' ... we are also talking about starting at the end...
morgano Bravin: Hello Zon
Eos Amaterasu listens to Eliza
Ewan Bonham: eliza, now i get it.
Darren Islar: I disagree Eliza, because it assumes that when we drop we see who we are
Darren Islar: I doubt that
Archmage Atlantis: Eliza is a poet
Ewan Bonham: Eliza, are you saying...to stop all activity can place me at a spot of total openness?
Eliza Madrigal: I have a Buddha statue in my garden... sometimes there are weeds in front of his face, but he is always whole
Archmage Atlantis: Poets take all life into a few words
Darren Islar: to stop all activity, why ?
Scathach Rhiadra: good night all:) ciao!!
Eliza Madrigal: Night Scath :) nice to see you
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: nye
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Scàth
Darren Islar: nite Scath :)
Ewan Bonham: darren...stillness
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye
morgano Bravin: nite scath
Eos Amaterasu: sun-face buddha, moon-faced buddha
Eos Amaterasu: (another koan)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: happy buddha, sad buddha
Eos Amaterasu: we buddha,dry buddha
Eos Amaterasu: *wet
Eliza Madrigal grins
Archmage Atlantis: Works better with an Asian DNA face, Eos
Yakuzza Lethecus: wb ara
Eos Amaterasu examines his base pairs
Agatha Macbeth: wb Ara
Ewan Bonham: rag weed...no rag weed buddah
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Calvino Rabeni: I'm reflecting Darren's last point
Darren Islar: wb Ara
Eliza Madrigal wonders about how 'stopping all activity' came into play...
arabella Ella: hiya
morgano Bravin: is this a buddhist meeting?
Eos Amaterasu: just try stopping all activity :-)
Archmage Atlantis: The mind so goes in so many places
Calvino Rabeni: No not a buddhist meeting
morgano Bravin: thanks
Agatha Macbeth: Can't be I'm not a Buddhist
Archmage Atlantis: "Listen my children, and you shall hear
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Archmage Atlantis: of the midnight ride of Paul Revere"
Archmage Atlantis: That really was off the chart
Eliza Madrigal: the thing is, where the activity is coming from, Darren?
Darren Islar: the activity in intself doesn't matter I think
Eliza Madrigal: Is it coming from completeness, from stillness... staying there... or trying to 'get' somewhere... some thing...
Ewan Bonham: Yes, Eliza
Darren Islar: btw I wasn't the one with the question about activity
Ewan Bonham: Perhaps stopping all frenzied activity...that which interrupts awareness
Archmage Atlantis: I would say, Darren has a gestalt
Ewan Bonham: points to myself
morgano Bravin: for me its helped by not trying to get anywhere anymore
Darren Islar: how does activity interrupts awareness
Eliza Madrigal: yes... my question was more open... not aimed at anyone..
Darren Islar: or should we become aware of our activities
Eliza Madrigal: but picking up when you pointed last
Ewan Bonham: I can busy my mind, and miss what is happening around me
Darren Islar: ok, sorry Eliza
Darren Islar: interesting
Ewan Bonham: i guess my mind goes somewhere else other than where I am
Eliza Madrigal: yes, hard to keep up ... better to give up maybe - hehe:)
Archmage Atlantis: You all know what butterflies are in English?
Agatha Macbeth: Mine does that all the time
Archmage Atlantis: They can be held
Darren Islar: the question is if there is a relation between activity and awareness, a particular activity
Darren Islar: I wonder
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: Usually holding them
Yakuzza Lethecus: welcome aphrodite
Archmage Atlantis: rubs off the powdery substance that allows them to fly
Darren Islar: we can use activity though to not be aware, but I doubt it is the activite itself
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, Aph!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aprodite :)
Agatha Macbeth: Hi Aphro
Eos Amaterasu: it's probably easier to catch awareness in stillness, but awareness is in both stillness and activity; so stillness is like the finger pointing at the moon
Ewan Bonham: can i be aware when i am doing dishes?
Darren Islar: hi Phprodite
Calvino Rabeni: That is a good question Darren. Awareness is a fragmented process
Eos Amaterasu: I find doing dishes offers lots of transitions, gaps, within which awareness arises
Ewan Bonham: Yes, eos
Eliza Madrigal: yes me too... dishes meditation
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: a friend posted something the other day which I liked : “Don't ask what the world needs. Ask what makes you come alive, and go do it. Because what the world needs is people who have come alive.” ~Howard Thurman
Agatha Macbeth loves watching dishes meditate
Eliza Madrigal snorts
Eliza Madrigal: heheheh Ag
Archmage Atlantis: dishes, not so much, watering and feeding the animals that live with me, a lot
Ewan Bonham: yes, Eliza , the rest flows from that
Yakuzza Lethecus: can´t we meditate on all automated activities like of course walkingmeditation
Bruce Mowbray: Steer by Joy. Follow your bliss.
Eliza Madrigal: dishes meditating reminds me of Bruce's 'being with the storm'
Calvino Rabeni: yes Yaku
Yakuzza Lethecus: so dishes,eating
Eos Amaterasu: both automated activities and those requiring, um, awareness :-)
Agatha Macbeth: Storm always gets in somewhere
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Why a steer, why not a bull, or a cow?
Agatha Macbeth: A longhorn critter.......yeeeeeeehaaaaaawwwwwwww
Bruce Mowbray: To serve your own well-being is a gift to the universe.
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm partal to longhorns
Aphrodite Macbain: partial
Ewan Bonham: Yes, bruce...sems that ties into Eliza's point
Eliza Madrigal: 'cultivate from the end'
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eos Amaterasu: so you recognize what makes you come alive... you already know/be that
Eos Amaterasu: you come home
Archmage Atlantis: To know my own well-being is to gift those who love me....I understand that more better
Eliza Madrigal: Be decisve... know what is... see clearly... ;-)))) @ Eos
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Bruce Mowbray: well put, arch.
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: Great topic Yakuzza, and thank you everyone
Archmage Atlantis: needs to eat tomatoes, beans, rice, cucumbers and apples......Later guys
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: i dont think the universe cares about are well being or cares at all for that matter
Yakuzza Lethecus: night eliza
Agatha Macbeth: With chips
Eliza Madrigal: Gen, nice to see you... sorry about screwy internet
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Liz :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: i was just glad that the discussion become stable in itself
Eos Amaterasu needs to make supper, so family can eat at the end
Eliza Madrigal smiles
morgano Bravin: somewhere in what you said Arch resonates something beautiful to me
Darren Islar: bye Eliza, Eos
Bruce Mowbray: begin with dessert!
genesis Zhangsun: by ELiza and Eos
genesis Zhangsun: I am off too
Ewan Bonham: bye eliza
Eos Amaterasu: bye gang, thanks yak and gen
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care eos
Darren Islar: Bye Gen
genesis Zhangsun: take care Yaku
Eliza Madrigal: Byeeee hugs
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye gen
Agatha Macbeth: I'm off to fondle me column loves, sayonara :)
arabella Ella: bye all those leaving
Darren Islar: bye Agatha
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone whos leaving again :)
Ewan Bonham: brb
morgano Bravin: bye Ags
morgano Bravin: bye anyone who is leaving
Calvino Rabeni: Hello, anyone who is still here :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Calvino
arabella Ella: :)
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hi cal
morgano Bravin: Hi Cal
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: have of the logs is about greetings
arabella Ella: very true
arabella Ella: and silent pauses too
Darren Islar: need to go
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: ok dar
Darren Islar: bye everyone
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: bye
arabella Ella: bye Darren
Calvino Rabeni: The logs are raw - the scribe sessions filter out all the hellos and goodbyes
Slavetotheuniverse Greybeard: hmm ok
Claire Maskelyne: Is the recording off?
--BELL--
Yakuzza Lethecus: recording is still active
Yakuzza Lethecus: big brother is sending to the whole world
Claire Maskelyne: Oh...
Yakuzza Lethecus: at least today´s guardian will recieve the log
Yakuzza Lethecus: which is lia, in case you want something out of the log you just need to send a message to lia rikugun
arabella Ella: shhhhhhhhh
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah
Yakuzza Lethecus: meditation in silence
Eden Haiku: ;)
Yakuzza Lethecus is sneaking away, bye everyone!
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Yaku.
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye Yaku
Aphrodite Macbain: Were you talking about beginning at the end?
arabella Ella: bye Yaku thanks
Bruce Mowbray: starting at the end, yes, Aph.
Calvino Rabeni: Beginning at the end was the session topic for a while
Bruce Mowbray: Is there meaning in that topic for you, Aph?
Claire Maskelyne: Goodbye, everyone...
arabella Ella: bye Claire
Eden Haiku: Bye everyone :))
arabella Ella: i must be off bye everyone
morgano Bravin: bye Arabella
Bruce Mowbray: Walk in beauty, ara.
morgano Bravin: sneaks off,,bye everyone
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, morgano!
Bruce Mowbray: I've had experiences that were so wonderful that I said to myself: THIS is what I have lived my whole life for.
Bruce Mowbray: It feels like "starting at the end."
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: It's dinnertime here in Ohio -- so I bid Ewan and Calvino goodbue for now.
Bruce Mowbray: bye.
Hokon Cazalet: bye =)
Calvino Rabeni: Hello, Hokon
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
Calvino Rabeni: How are your studies?
Yakuzza Lethecus: still a topic going on ?
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
Ewan Bonham: nite Cal
Calvino Rabeni: Well...
Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Ewan
Aphrodite Macbain: Looks like veryone is leaving.I'm gong home now to do some work!
Ewan Bonham: And aphrodite
Ewan Bonham: some activity...:)
Calvino Rabeni: Take care, Aphrodite :)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye