The Guardian for this meeting was Bertram Jacobus. The comments are by Bertram Jacobus.

Bertram Jacobus: hey bruce ! :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Bert.
Bertram Jacobus: you seem really to be very engaged - so nice ! so often here ... :-)
Bruce Mowbray: I've just read the news about the tragedy in Germany and thought of you...
Bertram Jacobus: tragedy ? with the tunnel ?
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: Yes: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38393697...d_news-europe/
Bertram Jacobus: i only read a headline just while loggin in now anywhere at a starter page ...
Bruce Mowbray: That MSNBC link should work.
Bertram Jacobus: so much suffering, so much joy all over the universe - unbounded ! (?) ...
Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
Bertram Jacobus: so - how should we handle "bad news" ?
Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm. My "head" says with compassion. . . but
Bruce Mowbray: there is something about "shock" involved, for me.
Bertram Jacobus: ah. hm. i see ...
Bruce Mowbray: a sort of numbing comes first -- then remembering compassion, afterwards.
Bertram Jacobus: hello aphrodite ! :-)
Bruce Mowbray: I do not wish for compassion to be a "head trip."
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi.
Bruce Mowbray: Blessings, Strawberry Lady!
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm feeling quite misty today
Aphrodite Macbain: Please don't let me interrupt
Bruce Mowbray: Then you've come to the right place. . .
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Bertram Jacobus: misty ... hm ... ;-)
Aphrodite Macbain: Wish I could get rid of my stupid hair - just as well I'm in a fog
Aphrodite Macbain: bad hair day I guess
Bruce Mowbray: are you letting off steam, Aph?
Aphrodite Macbain: hahah
Aphrodite Macbain: hisss
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: hi steve :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, steve.
Aphrodite Macbain: I'm going to make myself a strawberry sandwich back soon
stevenaia Michinaga: hello bruce and bert
stevenaia Michinaga: I was having login problems
stevenaia Michinaga: Welcome to the group Bruce
Bertram Jacobus: yes. it looked like - you were a cloud for a little while steve ... ;-)
Qt Core: hi all!
Bertram Jacobus: hello qt ! ... :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, steve!
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Qt.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello QT and aphrodite
Bertram Jacobus: seems to have much space here and now - for thoughts and bodies ! ... like it ... :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: I just returned from a week at the beach, lovely days of sand and water, strange nights of dreams
Bruce Mowbray is envious -- swealtering in heat wave without beach.
stevenaia Michinaga: I've always found it interesting to "change my place" and watch what happens.
Bertram Jacobus: oh ah yes ! :-)
Bertram Jacobus: what was "strange" ? :-)
stevenaia Michinaga: Read all the time all week and noted dreams of things I haven;t thought about for decades, people from long ago
stevenaia Michinaga: that strange
Bruce Mowbray: were you able to recognize the folks in your dream, steve?
Bertram Jacobus: interesting ... how human psyche works, sometimes ...
stevenaia Michinaga: I am hoping to remember enough to jot them down
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: one included a neighbor from over 45 years ago, long dead who I haven't thought of in decades
Bruce Mowbray: yes. Isn't it amazing and wonderful how that "baggage" is stored -- and only comes into consciousness later?
Bruce Mowbray: I have experienced that many times, also.
stevenaia Michinaga: or unconscious, in this case
Bruce Mowbray: or several years these folks kept appearing in my dreams...
Bruce Mowbray: and I couldn't place them...
Bruce Mowbray: And years afterward, I was looking through my college yearbooks,
Bruce Mowbray: and realized THOSE were the folks I'd been dreaming about!
stevenaia Michinaga: it does make you wonder what they were doing in your head all that time
Bruce Mowbray: Some of the PaB exercises are also bringing up stuff long ago forgotten.
Bruce Mowbray: yes --- Ha!
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe they were partying in there!
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Qt Core: hi Fay
Fay Yedmore: hey all
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Fay.
Bertram Jacobus: fay told me to tell you that she only shows the place here to somebody ... ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey fay
Bertram Jacobus: and hy yaku ! :-)
Fay Yedmore: hey yaku!
Qt Core: hi Yaku
Fay Yedmore: we meet tomorrow i have heard lol
Yakuzza Lethecus: ah, everyone is rezzing now
Fay Yedmore: how nice
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
stevenaia Michinaga: Welcome, pls sit, Hi Yak
Bruce Mowbray: Greetingsm Yaku.
Fay Yedmore: but i will leave u all
Fay Yedmore: have a nice meeting i go shower lol
Bertram Jacobus: yes - yaku fay and pema and me will meet tomorrow in cologne ...
Bruce Mowbray: so soooooooon???
Bertram Jacobus: ah and lia
Qt Core: nice
Bruce Mowbray: Wow!
Fay Yedmore: bye bye sweet people
Bertram Jacobus: yes. lookin forward to it for sure :-)
Qt Core: bye Fay, have fun
Bertram Jacobus: bye fay dear ;-)
stevenaia Michinaga: enjoy
Bertram Jacobus: but about the pab exercises bruce : which one did you mean please ?
Bruce Mowbray: When I said that, I was referring to last week's exercise for the Time Sessions.
Bruce Mowbray: Brought up lots of childhood memories.
stevenaia Michinaga: listens
Bruce Mowbray: stuff I could not have predicted would rise.
Bruce Mowbray: I guess my "psyche" got triggered - because it suddenly realized I was now capable of dealing with some of that stuff.
stevenaia Michinaga: is a predicted arising an arising?
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. . .
Bruce Mowbray: all I know is that doing the exercises seems to bring it up -- unpredictably.
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: nods, predicting unpredictiability.... got me there
Bertram Jacobus: may be, my english is once again not good enogh, but - - - why should a predicted arising not be an arising ? ...
Bruce Mowbray looks to steve for that one. . .
stevenaia Michinaga: taps food... not sure, I enjoy confusion and resolution, perhaps it can, my expectations would be the unexpected
Bruce Mowbray likes "Expecting the 'unexpected.'
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: A way of overcoming psychic inertia.
--BELL--
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, a nice way of putting that
Bruce Mowbray: 40 years ago we called it "habit"
Bruce Mowbray: 25 years ago we called it "compulsion"
Bruce Mowbray: 5 years ago we called it "addiction"
Bruce Mowbray: Now I call it, "psychic inertia."
Bertram Jacobus: whaow - think about that - but : buddhist teachings talk here and there a lot about "habits" - also today (!?) ...
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Ken McLeod uses the term "habituated reaction" a lot.
Bruce Mowbray: or "habituated reactive patterns."
stevenaia Michinaga: thinks... is psychic inertia an easy or dificult thing to change
Bruce Mowbray: both.
stevenaia Michinaga: I senced that
Bruce Mowbray: First, ya gotta realize there's a horse.
Bruce Mowbray: Then ya gotta get a lasso round his neck.
Bruce Mowbray: Then ya gotta lead it to water.
Bruce Mowbray: BUT -- will he drink?
Bruce Mowbray: Sometimes it's enough just to whistle. and the horse comes.
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: and drinks, too.
Bertram Jacobus: yeah. i thought "also" : it depends (?) ... "on everything" ...
Bruce Mowbray thinks Darn it -- I forgot about "everything"!
Bruce Mowbray vows to sit on hands.
Bertram Jacobus smiles and guesses and thinks : sometimes it´s nice not surly to understand all - so the feelings and emphathizing needs may be trained (?) ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: and yaku ? are you with us at the moment ?
Bertram Jacobus: seemingly not - so i will / may tell later ... ;-)
Bertram Jacobus: (blub doesn´t show his name anymore) ... (?) ;-)
stevenaia Michinaga: blub?
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, he was hoping to be anonymous...
Bruce Mowbray: Just a sec...
Bertram Jacobus: bruce's fish steve ;-)
stevenaia Michinaga: awww
Bertram Jacobus: lol yes ! :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Blub (still)
Bertram Jacobus: lol again : still in german means quiet :o)
Bruce Mowbray: [anonymouse no more!]
Bruce Mowbray: Oh really?
Bruce Mowbray: wow.
Bertram Jacobus: yess :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Quiet -- like Yaku?
Bertram Jacobus: yess - exactly :o)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Ironically, yesterday Yaku told us that the "quiet" makes him uncomfortable... wants to hear folks talking more.
--BELL--
Qt Core: that's the akward silence of not finding something cool enough to say
Qt Core: ;)
Bertram Jacobus: yes - i remembered that and wanted to give the idea of wu wei to it (!) ...
Bertram Jacobus: which may be also to him ... an interpretation of also quiet phases which is quite positive
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, see you all again soon
Qt Core: bye steve
Bertram Jacobus: bye steve have a good time ! *wave*
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, steve.
Bertram Jacobus: ok - i´ll leave too - have a good time all and look forward to meet you again ! ...
Qt Core: bye Bert
Bertram Jacobus: and ... you know ... may be all beings be happy plaese ...
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Bert. Have a good weekend and a fun meeting with the PaB folks in Koln.
Bertram Jacobus: tyty :-))
Bruce Mowbray: Do you know of Ken McLeod's work, QT (or Yaku)?
Qt Core: no
Bruce Mowbray: Pema mentioned him in his Introduction.
Bruce Mowbray: And Ken mentions Pema (actually Piet) in his book.
Bruce Mowbray: "Wake Up to Your Life"
Bruce Mowbray: I am currently following Ken's practice with the 5 elements (Dakinis).
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.unfetteredmind.com/
Qt Core: with such a smiling statue in the homepage how many keep reading ? ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Yakuzza Lethecus: never heard of him
Bruce Mowbray: He is quite a remarkable teacher, actually.
Darren Islar: hi everyone :)
Qt Core: hi Darren
Bruce Mowbray: He has been my major teacher for a few years.
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Darren.
Bruce Mowbray: Our group in Columbus, Ohio, which follows Ken's methods:
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.wutyl-columbus.org/
Bruce Mowbray: Not sure, but I'm guessing that Pema is also a student of Ken's.
Darren Islar: why is that?
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: ... because Pema mentions Ken McLeod in his Introduction.
Bruce Mowbray: and Ken mentions Pema (Piet) in his book.
Darren Islar: ah....
Bruce Mowbray: How are you today, Darren?
Darren Islar: I'm fine thanks
Darren Islar: I guess somebody crashed
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Qt suddenly went POOF.
Bruce Mowbray: "Crashing" is an interesting metaphor. . .
Darren Islar: how so?
Bruce Mowbray: Impermanence... perhaps?
Bruce Mowbray: There's Qt again.
Bruce Mowbray: WB, Qt.
Qt Core: ty
Darren Islar: wb QT
Darren Islar: there are scientists who see the possibility of eternal life in virtual lifes
Darren Islar: virtual living
Darren Islar: a post-human developing
Bruce Mowbray: fascinating stuff. . . Can you say more about it, Darren?
Darren Islar: the idea is that 'packages' of software that we call 'i', downloads of our brains, can travel over the internet
Darren Islar: first maybe can be downloaded into robots
Darren Islar: there is a problem with sences though
Darren Islar: but you can imagine that sences can be available through your own human body
Darren Islar: but after a while we will discover that artificial life has benefits over human life
Darren Islar: so there might be a possibility we choose to become just 'packages', or........
Bruce Mowbray thinks: SL certainly has benefits over RL, in some ways.
arabella Ella: Hiya
Darren Islar: then life has been created that isn't any longer human anymore
Qt Core: once at that level of IT sophistication traslating visual/and other sences to the right elecrtic impulse should be trivial
Darren Islar: hey Ara
Darren Islar: right QT
Bruce Mowbray: Welcome, ara.
Qt Core: Hi Ara
Darren Islar: there is only one problem
Darren Islar: nobody knows how to 'download' a brain
Bruce Mowbray: This 'problem' with the senses: Machines often do much better at that than humans.
Qt Core: not yet
Darren Islar: yes, that is what some scientists belief
Bruce Mowbray: So, is this the cutting-edge of neuro-biology?
Darren Islar: neuro-biology will only be a step in between now and the last 'stage'
arabella Ella: isnt neuro science cutting edge the implatation of chips in brains?
Qt Core: let's listen to Ara, she has the right tags for the topic ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: cool.
Darren Islar: :)
arabella Ella giggles
Darren Islar: we were already past that stage Ara :)
arabella Ella: ok ... any questions ... fire ... only joking
arabella Ella would prefer to listen
Qt Core: it is only science fiction but Accelerando by Charles Stross is an interesting reading about it with not only downloaded minds but also... multiple copies of them
Qt Core: another interesting issues
--BELL--
Qt Core: mpd on the net
Darren Islar: yes right, our own parallel universes
Darren Islar: but there is an interesting question in this stuff
Darren Islar: if evolution is true
Darren Islar: where will homo sapiens develop into?
Darren Islar: there is a kind of silent agreement
Qt Core: homo twitter ?
Darren Islar: that we are the last stage of something
Darren Islar: :) QT
Darren Islar: homo tweet tweet
Bruce Mowbray: Every living thing is "the last stage" of something -- The mere fact that it is alive at this time makes it a "pinnacle" of evolution.
Darren Islar: true
Bruce Mowbray: We share "pinnacleness" with a lot of others.
Darren Islar: but if you look at spirituality or religion, where does that leave us?
arabella Ella: with who Bruce?
Bruce Mowbray: @ ara: with all other living things.
Qt Core: every species, from mosquitoes to whales
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Darren Islar looking at the musquitoe in his room
arabella Ella: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Not quite sure what you mean, Darren: "Where does that leave spirituality?"
Darren Islar: a lot of religions seem to think that homo sapiens is the crown on Gods work
Darren Islar: but are we?
Darren Islar: if we take evolution as guideline
Darren Islar: then we should develop in something different
arabella Ella: possibly .... within our own little universe ... but what about other universes?
Darren Islar: that too
Bruce Mowbray thinks: That mosquito is doing a better job of being a mosquito than I am of being a man.
Darren Islar: :)
arabella Ella: and apologies for repeating again but I find kevin warwick's predictions on cyborgs as the next stage quite appealing
Bruce Mowbray does a quickie Google of Kevin Warwick.
Darren Islar tries to get into a good conversation about it with the musquitoe in his room, but so far no luck
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: keep trying, Darren.
Darren Islar: :)
Qt Core: i mentioned this earlier this week i think, but again: http://www.fullmoon.nu/articles/art.php?id=tal
Bruce Mowbray: http://www.kevinwarwick.com/
Bruce Mowbray liked this part (from Qt's article): “Yes, I think I can see the attractions of a hundred billion year long orgasm and humans haven't even begun to know how to really enjoy the orgasms they are already capable of. Wait till you master that simple art!“
arabella Ella: how funny
arabella Ella: am reading it now
Bruce Mowbray: The concept of cyber-evolution. . . I still don't see how that would contradict or threaten spirituality...
arabella Ella: why should it?
arabella Ella: did i miss something?
Darren Islar: not necesarilly cyber-evolution
Darren Islar: we are bound to change
Darren Islar: what is it that makes us think that we are the crown of Gods work?
Darren Islar: *on
Bruce Mowbray: arrogance and stupidity, perhaps.
arabella Ella: mainly ... or basically ... because it is often ingrained in us as kids over and over again
Darren Islar: it is an interesting question, because even people who don't belief, think the human race is something special
arabella Ella: some stick to that belief, others reject it totally
Darren Islar: we are brought up that way
Darren Islar: we think we can decifer all the secrets of life
Darren Islar: with our science
Darren Islar: so if you really start thinking about it
--BELL--
Darren Islar: then this question is doing something to us
Bruce Mowbray just realized that HE sits at the very CENTER of Second Life -- all he has to do is set "view" to the camcorder, and everything revolves around him. (Sorta like humans have been thinking all along. . . )
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps it has something to do with "trading" sheer appearance" for "existence."
Darren Islar: yes, we make everything human
Bruce Mowbray: so. . . we not only "need" to "believe" in "existence," but we also have to be at the center of all existence (in our imaginings).
arabella Ella: well Bruce that is quite visible if you observe humans who crave for power
Bruce Mowbray: Maybe cyborgs would be more sensible about stuff than humans.
arabella Ella: they think they are at the centre
Bruce Mowbray: (an evolutionary improvement?)
Darren Islar: hmmm, that is an interesting thought about cyborgs
Darren Islar: because most of the times cyborgs are thought to be indifferent
arabella Ella: would they not then need an 'emotivity' chip too?
Darren Islar: which might be an improvement btw according to the greed Ara pictures
arabella Ella: or 'sensitivity'
Bruce Mowbray is remembering "Data" on Star Trek.
Darren Islar: interesting: do you need emotions to be sensitive about stuff
Darren Islar: I guess so
Darren Islar: empathy is based on it
arabella Ella: i think you do but i think emotion can be learnt too as a skill
arabella Ella: it is a way of reacting, a type of behaviour
Bruce Mowbray: "Emotional Intelligence" -- capacity to learn emotional response.
Darren Islar: so far robots are nog good in decifering human emotions
Qt Core: discovering wich parameters and at which value make people happy you may be sensible without being it
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps emotionaltiy is mal-adaptive -- and cyborgs will "get over it."
arabella Ella: remember robin williams in bicentenial man the movie
Darren Islar: if you can describe it as pure behaviour I guess so
arabella Ella: oh no mosquitos attacking ara too now
Qt Core: (one of the few time i loved the movie more than the book/novel)
arabella Ella: :)
Darren Islar: lets have a session with them Ara :)
Bruce Mowbray: I will definitely rent that one from Netflix... tonight!
arabella Ella: :)
Qt Core: lets explain them tho drop and stop at the 90 sec... in which we kill them all
Darren Islar: :)
Darren Islar: sorry, can't do that, I'm all about the soft approach :)
arabella Ella: LOL
Qt Core: me too until they bite
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I am too. Enter a reasonable dialogue with the mosquitos...
Darren Islar: right Bruce
Darren Islar: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Ask them how they would like it if YOU bit THEM.
Darren Islar: talking about empathy :)
Qt Core: maybe we may meke them meet the Cullen family and then offer them some tomato
arabella Ella: LOL
Bruce Mowbray notices: Yaku just moved for the first time in a long while.
Darren Islar: who are the Cullen family?
arabella Ella: vampires
Darren Islar: :))
arabella Ella: in recent popular literature
Darren Islar: oh, okay
arabella Ella: and movie spin offs
Yakuzza Lethecus: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi there, Yaku!
Yakuzza Lethecus being as cloud just around :)
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: LOOK OUT< Mosquitos!
Darren Islar is taking his mosquito
Darren Islar: need to go to sleep :)
Darren Islar: bey all :)
Bruce Mowbray: Good night, Darren. and Thanks.
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye darren
Qt Core: ops, bye darren
arabella Ella: bye Darren
Bruce Mowbray: Going back to our earlier topic -- I suppose it is inevitable that humans will one day make contact with "artificial life" from other solar systems.
arabella Ella: i doubt it
Bruce Mowbray: or -- perhaps the cyborgs that replace humans will one day make that contact...
Bruce Mowbray: Why do you doubt it, ara?
arabella Ella: i dont think our human capacity will allow us to recognise any other life forms
Bruce Mowbray: wow -- That's a fascinating idea. . .
arabella Ella: i think other life forms exist but we would need to adjjust our perceptive capabilities which are not adequate as they are
Bruce Mowbray: really!
Bruce Mowbray: Excellent point -- perhaps "they" are in our midst right now, but we cannot perceive them.
Qt Core: our eyes may be limited, but our instruments aren't so bad, maybe we can't see them as their instrument prevent that, not theyir nature
arabella Ella: no Qt
arabella Ella: i think it is OUR nature that would prevent us from seeing or hearing or touching or whatever anything non human or not of this universe
arabella Ella: but it does not mean this situation will always prevail
arabella Ella: maybe in the future we could 'enhance' our perception
arabella Ella: like add on sonar which bats or dolphins have and other capacities
arabella Ella: or telepathy
arabella Ella: and there must be capacities that at present we cannot even start to conveive
Bruce Mowbray: Ara -- could so-called "AI" enhance our perceptual capacities?
arabella Ella: i think so yes
Bruce Mowbray: could robots (or other cyber-forms) go where no man has gone before. . . ?
arabella Ella: the thing about AI though in my opinion is
arabella Ella: they reach a target with AI and the 'gatekeepers' always change the goal posts
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
arabella Ella: and Bruce the answer to your last question is obvious isnt it
arabella Ella: just as i think it was sputnik that had a money on it when it was launched into space
arabella Ella: so could robots go into other universes
Bruce Mowbray: Is the the old "establishment" problem, again? Those in power tend to be conservative, in order to hold on to their power?
--BELL--
arabella Ella: not exactly
Qt Core: a little sixth sense from technology: http://news.therecord.com/article/507124
Bruce Mowbray: {changing the "goal posts" by "gatekeepers"?}
arabella Ella: well i suppose it does sound like you interpreted it but i did not manage to find another word for gatekeepers
arabella Ella: somehow the goalposts seems to change once a target is reached
Qt Core: (i read about aniother like it just shwing where north is)
Bruce Mowbray: fascinating technology, Qt.
arabella Ella: but imagine showing lady lovelace or charles babbage where AI has got to today ... they would be amazed and say the goal would have been achieved, at least IMHO
Qt Core: (and relatively simple, bruce)
arabella Ella: oh QT there is a video on this technology on the Ted website
arabella Ella: i saw it some months back and it is amazing
Qt Core: one of the black hole website i try to avoid, ara ;-)
arabella Ella: the technology may not be identical but definitely similar
arabella Ella: :)
Qt Core: but i saw that there is another video by hans rosling and i so loved hios two previous video i may have to go there to see it
Bruce Mowbray: soooo, movingt the goal-posts is a good thing? -- progress in AI through moving the goal ahead every time a goal is achieved?
Qt Core: don't we do that in almost every field
Qt Core: ?
Bruce Mowbray: sure -- but I thought ara had a "problem" with it.
arabella Ella: oh yes i saw hans rosling live once at a conference and it was a brilliant experience
Qt Core: (envy)
arabella Ella: :)
Bruce Mowbray: they reach a target with AI and the 'gatekeepers' always change the goal posts
Bruce Mowbray: ?
arabella Ella: well i dont think i have an answer as to whether moving the goal posts is a good thing ... but somehow it seems to reflect on AI in such a way so as to give the perception that some research funds may not be well spent as targets are not being reached
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- I understand better now.
arabella Ella: so say today the criteria for AI are xyz
arabella Ella: tomorrow we get to xyz and the criteria then become pqr
Bruce Mowbray: Just as some neuro-biologists are complaining that there is little or no funding now for "awareness" research.
arabella Ella: yes similar
arabella Ella: perhaps one of the problems with research in some areas is lack of awareness of the power of PR
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) --- Yep, PR is pretty important for the "F" word (Funding).
arabella Ella: yes and another thing if i may ...
Bruce Mowbray: sure.
arabella Ella: the USA seems to have so much more funding than europe does altho with the EU it has improved somewhat
Bruce Mowbray: In USA a large corporation (like Ford) can give funding to a project and use that as a tax write-off.
Bruce Mowbray: Whole "foundations" are based on such tax advantages.
arabella Ella: yes also your national science foundation (or similar name)
Bruce Mowbray: or -- The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.
arabella Ella nods
Bruce Mowbray: yes, and the NSA, also.
Bruce Mowbray: This has been a fascinating Saturday afternoon mind-expander.. But need to get supper now.
Bruce Mowbray: Blessings to all of you.
Qt Core: bye Bruce, have fun
Yakuzza Lethecus: take care bruce
arabella Ella: yes very interesting thanks Bruce and bye
Yakuzza Lethecus: good night everyone
arabella Ella: bye Yaku
arabella Ella: I must go too bye all
Qt Core: same here, sleeptime