2010.07.07 07:00 - Being? What Being?

The Guardian for this meeting was Gaya Ethaniel. The comments are by Gaya Ethaniel.

Darren Islar: hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Darren.
Darren Islar: have you been here before?
Bruce Mowbray: First time yesterday.
Darren Islar: ok

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: I've read the background material careully since then -- wish I'd read it before I came for yesterday's 7 a.m. gathering.
Yakuzza Lethecus: good morning
Darren Islar: hi Yaku
Darren Islar: why is that?
Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Yak!
Bruce Mowbray: I would have focused on Being more -- and done the practice with better discipline.
Eliza Madrigal smiles at Gaya :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye Gaya :)
Darren Islar: you have a lot of chances left :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Sharon, Darren, Bruce, and Ya :)
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Darren Islar: hi Sophia :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Eliza.
Darren Islar: hi Eliza :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Sophia.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone new :)
Bruce Mowbray: Good morning, Eos.
Darren Islar: hey Eos
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Avatars in the Pavilion
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Eos and Pema :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Pema.
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Yakuzza Lethecus: and hi pema
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pema
Darren Islar: hi Pema
Pema Pera: today we have a theme session on the topic of Being
Pema Pera: it has quite a long history -- this theme session I mean :-)
Pema Pera: (Being has no history)
Pema Pera: some time in May, I believe, I heard that Darren had asked some questions about Being, what we did with that notion here, at a session where I was not present
Pema Pera: and the suggestion was made to have a theme session on that topic
Pema Pera: for various reasons, scheduling took some time
Pema Pera: BUT here we are now :-)
Pema Pera: Darren, would you like to start off?
Darren Islar: sure
Darren Islar: It is a question that I have for a long time
Darren Islar: the main question to me is: what is the difference between You seeing and Being seeing
Darren Islar: hoping that would give me some insight
Darren Islar: about how I can approach it
Darren Islar: insight in the tools I can use
Darren Islar: To me, it seems like that what we are actually doing here is You seeing
Darren Islar: exploring the conscious mind
Darren Islar: everything that is 'real' to us
Darren Islar: things
Darren Islar: but also thoughts, feelings and experiences
Darren Islar: becoming aware of that
Darren Islar: First I don't know if that is the right perception
Darren Islar: second I don't know how to make the connection from You seeing to Being seeing
Darren Islar: I realize it is not formulated quite right
Darren Islar: but You Seeing seems to room in the psychological area
Darren Islar: so, what is Being?
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: any answer would be wrong -- but we can try to get some sense of Being, indirectly
Pema Pera: formulating an answer we cannot do, but we can get some taste
Darren Islar: to me it seems to be on the wisdom level, as is emptiness
Darren Islar: I was ready, but still wanted to make a remark :))
Pema Pera: oh, please say as much as you like, at any time!
Darren Islar: sure, I will, don't worry
Pema Pera: this is all very informal, as you know -- it has to be, in order to talk about Being
Pema Pera: which is not a concept, even though we use a word for it
Pema Pera: starting with your question about YSBS, you seeing Being seeing
Pema Pera: that was just an attempt by me to give a little pointer to what Being can concretely mean in your life, as a kind of resource
Pema Pera: since Being sounds so abstract, it is essential to find a way to let it be concrete

--BELL--

Pema Pera: so in YSBS the YS is a warm up exercise to remind ourselves of how we normally see, and then the BS is a way to drop the self, not as an idea, but in practice -- to drop the self image we tend to carry along with us, and to find an actual way of letting Being do the seeing, or letting the seeing do the seeing -- words are so limited here . . . .
Pema Pera: does that make some sense?
Darren Islar: it does, but to me the dropping part is on the level of you seeing
Pema Pera: fine!
Darren Islar: you start dropping small things
Pema Pera: how we formulate it is not so important
Darren Islar: dropping self is something quite different
Pema Pera: the important thing is to do it, to explore deeper and deeper
Darren Islar: I understand Pema it is not about words
Pema Pera: one reason, for me at least, to use Being Seeing rather than You Seeing is that an emphasis on "You" tends to let the self sneak back in
Pema Pera: the first time, and probably the thousands time still too, that we try to drop the self
Pema Pera: it is the self trying to drop the self
Pema Pera: and that will never work
Darren Islar: right
Pema Pera: it's on the level of Being that the dropping can take place
SophiaSharon Larnia: ah
Darren Islar: to me there are different levels of dropping
Pema Pera: I try to point that out through "Being Seeing" but if you find a way to use the words "You Seing" for that, that would be fine too, for sure!
Pema Pera: can you say more, Darren?
Darren Islar: well I'm Buddhist, so I'm afraid I need to use some 'concepts' out of my practice
Darren Islar: to me ego sees to dwell both on the psychological level, the level we 'understand' to a certain extent
Darren Islar: while emptiness to me is on the wisdom slevel
Darren Islar: only approachable with other techniques then doing the 9 seconds
Darren Islar: to gain a deeper level, you need another practice, in my opinion of course
Darren Islar: I do understand your gesture of trying not to let you sneak back in
Darren Islar: but it gives me an idea I work on a level I'm not working on
Darren Islar: not really working on
Darren Islar: still struggling with ego a lot
Pema Pera: the invitation is to let go of everything, not only of the ego, but also of the struggle with the ego -- which for me, as a physicist, is a reason to try to keep things really simple
Pema Pera: for me, engaging in Being Seeing, or in trying to let the self drop away, is something that becomes richer and deeper every day that I explore it . . . it is like learning to play a violin . . .
Pema Pera: the first time we try to play a violin it may sound pretty awful and discouraging, but at least we might get some sound out of it (and it may even remind us of a pet animal of ours :-)
Darren Islar: letting go the struggle with ego, to me starts with excepting the situation
Pema Pera: but then the more we try, to richer the sounds become, and we can spend our whole life learning to listen to what the violin wants to sound like . . . somewhat similar with Being Seing
Darren Islar: you are becoming aware of the struggle
Darren Islar: after that you start to become aware of the irritation the struggle is giving you
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pamala, I'll IIM you with an intro to our group :) Welcome
Darren Islar: or the resistence
SophiaSharon Larnia: hi Pamela
Darren Islar: then you let that go
Pamala Clift: ty Eliza
Darren Islar: you start to become aware of more layers
Darren Islar: but to me all on the psychological level
Darren Islar: how do we get really insight?
Darren Islar: and more important to me
Darren Islar: how do we know we are on the right track
Darren Islar: making sure I don't confuse you seeing with being seeing
Darren Islar: thinking that I 'found it'
Darren Islar: to realize I only created a new ego
Darren Islar: on or more comfortable level

--BELL--

Darren Islar: feels great........
Pema Pera: these are all great questions, Darren, and yes, the psychological aspects are important and fascinating and should certainly not be ignored -- but at some point we have to also let go of all that, at least for a while; if we continue to stick with our questioning then *that* in itself will bind us and keep us stuck.
Darren Islar: ......but not necessarily being the real thing (leaving out that everything is real)
Darren Islar: I understand that
Darren Islar: but struggling with the more subtle levels
Darren Islar: of ego
Darren Islar: you seeing I can work with
Pema Pera: shall we open the floor for everyone to join in?
Pema Pera: (as we typically do with theme sessions at some point, half way)
Darren Islar: Being seeing seems to be far away (though I do now it is there a lot of moments in time)
Darren Islar: sure, I thought we were already there :))
Pamala Clift: Smile.. I came in the middle so pardon me if I speak out of place
Pema Pera: please to, Pamala!
Pamala Clift: I teach a class called State of Being here in SL
Pamala Clift: that talks about how to perceive our virtual world along with our rl
Pamala Clift: I put random compartments on the perception
Pamala Clift: dissassociative, immersive, & augmentative
Pamala Clift: all valid states of being except in conflict
Pamala Clift: cause we only see and believe otheres see the same way we do
Pamala Clift: what I heard you say when I came in
Pamala Clift: is that you seperate.. to look and watch yourself
Pamala Clift: is that correct?
Darren Islar: no
Darren Islar: there is a technique in which you can do a step aside, and still being in the experience
Darren Islar: but you do touch a more subtle level there
Eliza Madrigal: (wb Sharon) :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: (so sorry, lost internet access)
Darren Islar: because when do you know you don't dissociate
Darren Islar: wb Sharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: :) ty
Darren Islar: but becoming aware is not being dissociative
Pamala Clift: well I can see why that is a little difficult to assimilate.. you watch yes, and stepping aside ...whoops my appt is here..
Pamala Clift: I do wish to come again if I may and understand ty for allowing me audience
Eliza Madrigal: :) Nice to meet you Pamala. Join us again, yes we're here at 1,7,1,7
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: of course, Pamala, you're always welcome
Darren Islar: but I do admit that every thought that is labelling the awareness is taking you out of it at the same time
Bruce Mowbray: agreed, Darren.
Darren Islar: but that is also something to become aware of
Eos Amaterasu: Darren, re an earlier comment you made about buddhism, in its systematics there is a pretty precise location of where what Pema calls Being Seeing happens
Eos Amaterasu: In discussing mindfulness/awareness as shamatha/vipashyana
Darren Islar: I understand
Eos Amaterasu: you relax in thye space and let awareness come to you
Eos Amaterasu: that first happens in micro-experiences
Eos Amaterasu: vipashyana's characteristic is that rather than seeking to find awareness somewhere
Darren Islar: but I have taken a remark of one of Trungpa's students very well
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Darren Islar: and that is that in the first stage of awareness
Eos Amaterasu: first perception is Being's perception
Eos Amaterasu: then you pile it on
Darren Islar: we might be confused that we are already there
Darren Islar: leaving another 8 steps aside
Eos Amaterasu: Or the other way around: we are already there
Darren Islar: and I don't understand Being's perception
Eos Amaterasu: though we're doing our best to deny it :-)
Darren Islar: there are different views on that in buddhism
Eos Amaterasu: Little punctures allow glints of light from the Being that's already there
Darren Islar: but i won't deny you come across it a lot of times
Darren Islar: true
Pema Pera: thank you, Eos, that's a very helpful connection

--BELL--

Darren Islar: I guess my real question is: when does ego think that it sees Being or when do 'I' see Being for real?
Darren Islar: I miss the tools
Pema Pera: my answer is to at some point drop all tools . . . . .
Darren Islar: I miss the way to be able to know if I'm on the right track
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is okay to think one 'gets it' along the way, and enjoys feeling 'getting it' where/when that is...
Eliza Madrigal: and as one goes along, and capacity increases, stability sets in... then one thinks "Oh wow ... didn't know..." and that's okay too...
Darren Islar: when is there a transformation or when do you think there is one, but you are only trying to get out of the way
Darren Islar: or how can we think we need to stay in a situation, when we really need to move on
SophiaSharon Larnia: I honestly don't think we ever know if we're on the right track.
Eliza Madrigal: just speaking about this kind of practice in general in saying that... but doesn't seem helpful to be always on guard
Pema Pera nods to Sharon
SophiaSharon Larnia: you can have faith that you are, in a system, but that may or may not be shutting out other things
Eliza Madrigal: I should say, to me... (thinking aloud)
Darren Islar: I agree Sharon, as long there is nobody who can tell you that
Darren Islar: if there is somebody
SophiaSharon Larnia: smiles
Pema Pera: let me try to give another little story, in an attempt to clarify why I feel so comfortable with uncertainty these days
Pema Pera: imagine that you didn't know the notion of "space"
Pema Pera: you only knew about "locations"
Pema Pera: then you might be very worried about changing any location of any object
Bertram Jacobus: (hy everybody) ... :-)
Pema Pera: for all you know, you might lose the objects or something terrible might happen
Darren Islar: hi Bert
Bruce Mowbray: G'day Bert.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Bertram :)
Pema Pera: but once you get familiar with space, you realize that because of the presense of space, there is room for changing locations
Pema Pera: now in a somewhat similar way, there is a kind of "space" for insights too
Pema Pera: and like physical space, you can't see it -- but can get familiar with it, learning to trust it
Pema Pera: does that make some sense?
Darren Islar: sure, rooming the space
Darren Islar: roaming (?)
Darren Islar: somtimes getting scared by it
Darren Islar: but I do know the feeling of familiarity too
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes it does Pema, sometimes the space feels more solid, just something to see too
Pema Pera: yes, we often talk about space as if it were more "real" than what we put into a space
Pema Pera: and in a way it is more real perhaps :)
Darren Islar: :)
Pema Pera: would anyone else like to say something about Being, or about anything else? I'll have to sign off pretty soon; it's midnight here in Tokyo
SophiaSharon Larnia: eep :)
Bruce Mowbray: Is this 'space' that allows for insight similar to what Buddhist might term "emptiness" -- which is said to unlie all experience?
Pema Pera: very much related yes
Bruce Mowbray: underlie.
Pema Pera: though each attempt at formulating introduces subtly different orientations
Bruce Mowbray: I wish to get "under" (beyond?) "formulations of all sorts.
Darren Islar: But I'm not sure about your notion last time Pema: space and knowledge
Pema Pera: yes, Darren?
Pema Pera: and yes, Bruce, definitely!
Bruce Mowbray: I have a 'sense' that Being is itself a sense -- as the Buddhists say that "Mind" is also a sense organ. [07:52] Bruce Mowbray: A feel a tremendous sense of 'release' (words fail me here) to "relax" and "fall back" and "rest" in Being itself.
Darren Islar: so do I Bruce, but the problem is, we *do* use concepts
Darren Islar: you can say I want to let them go, but there not gone with that notion
SophiaSharon Larnia: :)
Bruce Mowbray says: I am trying to copy/paste something I IM'd to Pema earlier.

--BELL--

Pema Pera: thanks, Bruce, that feels very familiar to me, putting it that way, as an experience -- and yes, I had to smile seeing the time stamp, SL has so many little ways to let us enjoy its subtleties :)
Darren Islar: maybe that is just a comfortable place ego created
Pema Pera: we can't get certainty for the ego, indeed . . .
Darren Islar: to late for a discussion on emtipness I'm afraid
Yakuzza Lethecus: bye everyone
Pema Pera: the challenge is to somehow find ways to go beyond notions like certainty
Eos Amaterasu: bye Yak and all....
Pema Pera: and yes, I'll have to take off too
Pema Pera: thanks, Darren!
Darren Islar: but space can give people a notion that emptiness is empty
Pema Pera: and everybody
Bruce Mowbray: "ego" can be a fun little guy to watch. . .
Pema Pera: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks Pema, Eos, everyone :)
Pema Pera: see you all next time
Darren Islar: need to go too
Bertram Jacobus: bye pema and eos
Darren Islar: not feeling well
Bertram Jacobus: and darren
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye everyone! Thank you Darren and Pema!
Darren Islar: cold
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks to everyone.
Pema Pera: sorry to hear that, Daren
Pema Pera: Darren
Darren Islar: np
Pema Pera: be well !
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Sharon, Ya, Darren, Bruce, Bert :)
Bertram Jacobus: bye eliza
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye :))
Bruce Mowbray: G'day to all!