The Guardian for this meeting was Lucinda Lavender. The comments are by Lucinda Lavender.

Eliza Madrigal: And Hi Bruce too :))
Eliza Madrigal: :) Hi Lucinda :))
Eliza Madrigal: (lines reversed obviously)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi to Luci and Eliza.
Eliza Madrigal: We look quite pretty tonight... all in blues :)
Lucinda Lavender: we are the blue team...
Bruce Mowbray: All four of us!
Eliza Madrigal: hah, yes
Lucinda Lavender: yes along with Blub...
Bruce Mowbray thinks: I know another blue guy. . . (starts to chage shirt)
Eliza Madrigal: Lucinda, is this your session now?
Eliza Madrigal: another blue guy? :)
Lucinda Lavender: Well I just claimed it.
Eliza Madrigal: Oh :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you
Bruce Mowbray: [It might take a few minutes for you to see the new shirt -- and the new blue guy.
Bruce Mowbray: (slow connection on this end)
Lucinda Lavender: I I had offered to do it and it does perplex me that I hear no bell...
Eliza Madrigal: yes its quite troublesome... have never heard of that happening at all
Eliza Madrigal: so you hear no bell, and Ive heard no stories... :)
Eliza Madrigal: I loved the phrase you used earlier though... being bellness :)
Lucinda Lavender: What stories would interest you?
Bruce Mowbray: The bell is actually working, though - I can hear it (when it ringd, that is).
Bruce Mowbray: rings.
Lucinda Lavender: well once again I will trust in Bruce...
Eliza Madrigal: haha, and his dancing :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes good question re stories :) maybe we will write some
Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- ha ha! And you can also trust the fountain, I think.
Lucinda Lavender: ok
Lucinda Lavender: Hmmm
Bruce Mowbray: Have either of you been able to read Pem's second chapter?
Bruce Mowbray: Pema's
Lucinda Lavender: Not yet:(
Eliza Madrigal: yes.... read it earlier....
Eliza Madrigal: I thought captivating... so simple and yet potent
Lucinda Lavender: curious if there are somethings that have caught your eye already there.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cal :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hey, Calvino.
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Call!
Calvino Rabeni: Hello everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: One thing that I do love, is that he talks about staying 'wtih' appearances...
Lucinda Lavender: oh...:)
Eliza Madrigal: for me this seems particular, because so often we loftily want to be 'beyond appearances' or underneath them, etc... but...
Calvino Rabeni: That makes good sense to me also
Lucinda Lavender: staying there and perhaps relishing them?
Lucinda Lavender: studying with relish
Eliza Madrigal: yes... he writes:
Eliza Madrigal: Instead of looking past what appears to its meaning or value or utility, we just stay with what appears. We listen to it, we let it talk to us. We let it express itself. We open ourselves for new vistas, each moment. When engaging with sheer appearance, we invite time to present a new world of appearance, each moment. "
Lucinda Lavender: but no bun
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: so it has that sense of diving in :)
Lucinda Lavender: so when it is a scary appearance we dive intoo...
Eliza Madrigal: mmm, yes... seems so :)
Lucinda Lavender: as a witness perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: especially then.
Eliza Madrigal: I have faced some things recently... memories, dreams, etc... that once scared me
Eliza Madrigal: revisiting them, I've found them not to hold the same power...
Lucinda Lavender: nodding
Eliza Madrigal: its like calling a bluff
Eliza Madrigal: of your own :)
Bruce Mowbray: It is a bit tricky, though -- It's not FACING DOWN the fear -- just "staying with it."
Eliza Madrigal: hm, yes... not making war with appearances :)
Bruce Mowbray: It's not an ego thing. . . it's just Being with the appearance, whatever it is.
Lucinda Lavender: sometimes I ask...can this really be true...?
Eliza Madrigal: "this" Lucinda?
Bruce Mowbray: [1 minute, Lucinda]
Lucinda Lavender: :)
--BELL--

Lucinda Lavender: this as say an appearance...
Eliza Madrigal: I lowered the fountain earlier.. this may not help Lucinda see the bell...
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, re 'true' appearance
Bruce Mowbray: I will give Luci a visual cue.
Lucinda Lavender: Cal may not know but I have no appearances around the bell these days
Eliza Madrigal: appearance seems to point
Eliza Madrigal: metaphors pointing to metaphors...
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, Cal... if you have some advice to offer, Lucinda can't hear the bell, or see the green text, etc
Eliza Madrigal: She is bell-less as much as she is bell-ness :)
Lucinda Lavender: I think mostly about feelings I was thinking
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: when I create some kind of conclusion with my mind or body then I ask the question about it's truth and also I say to my self there is more around the feeling/conclusion
Lucinda Lavender: to find out
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, good question :) That is similar to a classic kira question as well! "What else is true?"
Eliza Madrigal: So not rejecting what one is encountering...but making room?
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, making room -- and also, not falling back on the old patterns of habituated reaction ...
Lucinda Lavender: making room for the story that I desire
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: allowing the appearance to be what it is, without polluting or skewing it with habitual reactive thinking or emotion.
Bruce Mowbray: staying "with" it -- making room for IT.
Lucinda Lavender: yes not caving in to a smaller picture
Bruce Mowbray: yeah - - often easier said than done, though.
Bruce Mowbray: especially for old dogs like me.
Calvino Rabeni: It's a very important principle, Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: And well worth the effort :)
Calvino Rabeni: People go to such lengths in other ways to bring new experiences to themselves, and not be trapped in the small circle of self.
Calvino Rabeni: Having fresh new experiences is one way to do that
Calvino Rabeni: And often quite pleasant and exciting
Bruce Mowbray: Like bumping into butterflies?
Calvino Rabeni: or in some other way fulfilling
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: or being their destination
Bruce Mowbray: or like watching the millions of lights reflecting off city windows.
Eliza Madrigal smiles at bumpint into butterfies... thinking of earlier seeing an incredible Monarch... size of a car ! :)
Eliza Madrigal: *bumping
Bruce Mowbray: while ships pass in the canal...
Calvino Rabeni: I can't take credit for bumping into the butterfly while riding a bicycle downhill, but I can take credit for how I received that experience
Bruce Mowbray: indeed, Cal.
Eliza Madrigal: It was so obvious... and yet butterflies are so delicate and subtle...
Bruce Mowbray: and thank you for sharing that.
Calvino Rabeni: It's surprising there can actually be a collision
Lucinda Lavender: I think about how butterflies are transformers for a while
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Calvino Rabeni: I have a fascination with dragonflies also
Lucinda Lavender: crawlers that become fliers
Calvino Rabeni: somehow it's always exciting to encounter them
Bruce Mowbray: metaphor s in flight.
Eliza Madrigal: yes... like a dream going by
Lucinda Lavender: :))
Eliza Madrigal: so powerful because so fleeting... transient
Bruce Mowbray: Kiss the metaphor as she flies. . .
Eliza Madrigal: many transparent as well...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Lucinda Lavender: so I wonder if there are any poems about them?
Bruce Mowbray: about butterflies?
Bruce Mowbray: [1 minute warning, Luci]
Lucinda Lavender: yes... perhaps by the Sufi fellows
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I remember one.
Bruce Mowbray: a haiku.
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Not sure if these words are exactly right but:
Bruce Mowbray: "White apple blossom
Bruce Mowbray: Returning to the branch?
Bruce Mowbray: Oh no, buterfly!"
Bruce Mowbray: butterfiy (of course)
Lucinda Lavender: nice
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Pila!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila and druth!
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Druth
Eliza Madrigal: Druth... QUITE an avatar
Pila Mulligan: hi
druth Vlodovic: hey
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, Pila.
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Eliza Madrigal: say "Cheese"
druth Vlodovic: :) experimenting with a new look
Bruce Mowbray: Yo, druth!
Pila Mulligan: druth, no offense but I'm going to sit by Bruce :)
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
druth Vlodovic: lol, I only bite if you ask nice
Bruce Mowbray: (IT's JUST AN APPEARANCE, folk -- No panic!)
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Pila Mulligan: an interesting look
Bruce Mowbray: [no butterfly, either!]
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: a butterly dreaming that he is a....
Lucinda Lavender: nice teeth you have...
Eliza Madrigal: hm....
Eliza Madrigal: yes, must have a great dentist :
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: ... and hello everyone
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila :)
Pila Mulligan: I'd like to recommend an article -- http://www.motherearthnews.com/Real-...tes-A-Day.aspx
Pila Mulligan: I've spent the afternoon playing with it and hope to bake a 5 minute loaf tomoorw
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, 'real food'
Pila Mulligan: yes :)
Pila Mulligan: a la Michael Pollan
Pila Mulligan: and his book 'In Defense of Fodd"
Pila Mulligan: Food*
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you Pila... have saved the site
Eliza Madrigal: Almost nothing better than the smell of fresh bread
Bruce Mowbray: me too! yummy.
Pila Mulligan: yep
Lucinda Lavender: pila at my house we keep the riasing dough on the water heater...but it is the only bread we eat any more...
Pila Mulligan: I made half the recipe and it looks like plenty for three loaves
Lucinda Lavender: a favorite recipe I guess
Pila Mulligan: I'm hoping to get in a similar habit Lucinda
Eliza Madrigal thinks Lucinda's house sounds like a lovely place... chickens, fresh bread rising on the water heater...
Pila Mulligan: make it yourself
Lucinda Lavender: when it sits for the hours it makes it seem very doable
Lucinda Lavender: no rushing
Pila Mulligan: Cal joins critter world :)
Eliza Madrigal: uh oh.... calvino is shrinking... oh...
Eliza Madrigal: Very cute avatar :) not scary at all
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Pila Mulligan: do you then refrigerate the excess dough Lucinda?
Calvino Rabeni: grakkkkkkk !
Lucinda Lavender: no
Lucinda Lavender: maybe our recipe isslightly different
Pila Mulligan: that is the unique part of the artcile I guess, keeping the dough fopr a weke or so and pulling off chunks t bake each day
Pila Mulligan: week
Pila Mulligan: refrigerated

Lucinda Lavender: I see!
Eliza Madrigal: bread and butterflies rising...
Pila Mulligan: druth looks far less threateneing now
Eliza Madrigal: haha, druth!
Bruce Mowbray: speaking of dough...
Lucinda Lavender: ?
Lucinda Lavender: right ...now I get it
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Is that the "Dough Boy"? -- Pillsbury, Ghostbusters. . .
Bruce Mowbray: awwww.....
Calvino Rabeni: Lucinda, I think you are turning Japanese, you're look is a lot different now
Bruce Mowbray: a levitating, turquoise dragon. . .
Lucinda Lavender: well I was inspired ...lost the hair I made so had to go an eiasier route.
Eliza Madrigal: the brightly colored kimono suits you well
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Lucinda Lavender: really makes me feel good...
Lucinda Lavender: the color
Lucinda Lavender: wish had to wear such things more often
Bruce Mowbray: we're still singing the "blue's" tonight -- five of us, anyway.
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: BELL!
Pila Mulligan: hi Avastu
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Eliza Madrigal: Avastu!
Pila Mulligan: this is the 90 second silence pause :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello there :))
Bruce Mowbray whispers, Welcome, Avastu!
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Avastu have you been here before?
Avastu Maruti: hello again Eliza
Avastu Maruti: yes, a couple of times
Avastu Maruti smiles
Lucinda Lavender: every 15 minutes we have a 90 second pause of sillence:)
Eliza Madrigal smiles... Avastu has been part of PaB for a loooong time :)
Lucinda Lavender: do you feel comfortable with being recorded?
Lucinda Lavender: the record is kept at the chat log of the Play as Being Wiki
Eliza Madrigal: though he may still have an answer for the question...
Lucinda Lavender: oops..
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: I am new at the hosting and practicing my skills
Eliza Madrigal: Not at all Lucinda, it has been a while
Eliza Madrigal: Avastu, do you know any butterfly poems? :)
Bruce Mowbray: [the Lindens require that these questions be asked - at least once.]
Avastu Maruti: butterfly poems?
Lucinda Lavender: yes?
Lucinda Lavender: I would love to hear some
Eliza Madrigal: we were trying to think of butterfly poems earlier :)
Avastu Maruti: the butterfly takes upon the air
Avastu Maruti: soaring in hope of discovery
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps a poem about bumping into a butterfly while riding downhill on your bicycle, Avastu?
Avastu Maruti: looking for the open space of peace
Avastu Maruti: while all the while it only had to spread it's own wings
Eliza Madrigal: ::Beams::: Lovely!
Bruce Mowbray: indeed - - sorry I interrupted it.
Lucinda Lavender: thank you so much!
Avastu Maruti: ha!
Eliza Madrigal: "It was with you all the time" :)
Bruce Mowbray: [`·.] APPLAUSE!! [.·´]
Lucinda Lavender: clapping too!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: What have you been up to Avastu?
Avastu Maruti: nothing at all
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: sry, I've got a thing, see you all later
Eliza Madrigal: bye druth, see you again soon :)
Lucinda Lavender: druth bye!
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, big guy (gal).
Lucinda Lavender: nothing at All sounds different to me tonight
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal listens...
Lucinda Lavender: Lucinda is thinking about how big All must be...
Bruce Mowbray: [1 min to bell, Luci]
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: Avastu, one of your blogs seems to recommend against qualifying experiences as some being good and some bad ... isn't it part of life though to expereince favorable and unfavorable situations? (please pardon my speaking from one quick read and not from taking time to grok your comments:)
Avastu Maruti: good and bad are relative judgements from mind alone
Pila Mulligan: yes
Avastu Maruti: how do you know these judgements?
Pila Mulligan: but it seems to me such judgments are common
Pila Mulligan: mine, by feeling :)
Avastu Maruti: granted they are common
Avastu Maruti: are you aware of thought?
Pila Mulligan: sometimes :)
Pila Mulligan: I'm pretty vacaNT USUALLY
Avastu Maruti: by sometimes you mean you don't always give attention to thought
Pila Mulligan: pardon caps
Pila Mulligan: yes
Avastu Maruti: yet whether thought is there or not, you are present and aware
Pila Mulligan: sometimes :)
Pila Mulligan: more or less aware that is
Pila Mulligan: preferring more, but not able to sustain it
Avastu Maruti: if you pause a thought, what is that openness which is present?
Pila Mulligan: non-thought?
Avastu Maruti: how do you know of non-thought?
Pila Mulligan: like night follow day, by contrast
Avastu Maruti: how do you know the contrast?
Pila Mulligan: one is dark, one is light
Avastu Maruti: how do you know that?
Pila Mulligan: I do not reall yknow it, just feel it or see it
Avastu Maruti: yes
Avastu Maruti: isn't feeling and seeing also called knowing?
Pila Mulligan: not to me :)
Avastu Maruti: ha!
Pila Mulligan: I can see someone make something and not know what they are doing
Avastu Maruti: in the pause of thought, are you not hearing the crickets, the hooting owl?
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: sesning them
Pila Mulligan: sensing*
Avastu Maruti: are they not coming and going in this presence?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Avastu Maruti: isn't thought very much the same?
Pila Mulligan: yes
Avastu Maruti: body sensations?
Pila Mulligan: also chaning
Pila Mulligan: changing*
Pila Mulligan: coming and oging
Pila Mulligan: rising and falling
Avastu Maruti: even the idea or concept of Pila is another changing appearance
Pila Mulligan: quite
Avastu Maruti: that you know of in the same way
Pila Mulligan: by senses
Avastu Maruti: so everything you know rises and sets in this presence
Pila Mulligan: so it seems
Avastu Maruti: the presence isn't itself another thing rising and setting
Pila Mulligan: it could be, but I cannot see it
Avastu Maruti: yes
Avastu Maruti: because you ARE it
Pila Mulligan: aye
Pila Mulligan: tat tram asii
Pila Mulligan: asi*
Pila Mulligan: but I still reserve a sense of value in making some judgments
Avastu Maruti: that "I" is the mind
Pila Mulligan: yes
Avastu Maruti: mind rises and sets
Pila Mulligan: with expereince :)
Avastu Maruti: yes
Pila Mulligan: for example, the value of peace
Pila Mulligan: I prefer the expereince of peace
Avastu Maruti: peace is not an experience nor a state of mind
Avastu Maruti: peace is your natural state
Pila Mulligan: hopefully
Pila Mulligan: then I prefer a natural state :)
Avastu Maruti: peace, happiness or joy, and love - all words for one thing
Avastu Maruti: You
Avastu Maruti: that unconditional space or presence
Avastu Maruti: just spread your wings
Pila Mulligan: thanks for elucidating
Avastu Maruti: (:
Pila Mulligan: :)
Bruce Mowbray: [1 minute to bell, Luci]
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: "space" is a strange word -- sometime it means "what fills" (like the space between us here -- and sometimes it means "emptiness". . .
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Pila Mulligan: interesting observation Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: "space" -- distance between, measurable. . .
Bruce Mowbray: or "space" -- emptiness, infinite, unmeasurable.
Lucinda Lavender: seems to at least two things
Bruce Mowbray: "A penetrating argument for Grace,
Bruce Mowbray: That puny perforations offer space."
Bruce Mowbray: (-- words of a GREAT poet! ;-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Bruce Mowbray: There's an owl hooting in the tree outside my window. . .
Bruce Mowbray: I will go out and observe the fingernail moon, now.
Bruce Mowbray: May all be well - and have a fine weekend.
Lucinda Lavender: thanks for all your help Bruce!
Bruce Mowbray: NP -- My pleasure!
Bruce Mowbray: Bye everyone.
Avastu Maruti: good bye my friend
Pila Mulligan: bye Bruce
Lucinda Lavender: Bye Bruce and the owl!
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Avastu. I hope we'll meet again soon.
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Bruce :)
Lucinda Lavender: in the space, is there change?
Pila Mulligan: there seems to be
Lucinda Lavender: or, is it unchanging?
Pila Mulligan: :) a Big Question
Lucinda Lavender: Hi Paradise!
Pila Mulligan: hi Paradise

Eliza Madrigal: Wow Paradise!
Eliza Madrigal: That is a BEAUTIFUL dress!
Lucinda Lavender: what a lovely lightfilled dress!
Pila Mulligan: colorful outift :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles at everyone
Paradise Tennant: sorry about landing on you avastu :)
Avastu Maruti: my pleasure
Eliza Madrigal: wow, am finding so many reasons to take pics lately :)
Lucinda Lavender: yes! me too
Paradise Tennant: evening all :))) eliza ..pila .. cal luncinda :) avastu :)
Avastu Maruti smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Paradise
Pila Mulligan: I hope all's well with you Paradise
Paradise Tennant: smiles a very big smile .. friday night ! my canine friend and I are eating a really good grilled cheese sandwich ..all is well .. ;))
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: just before you arrived Lucinda posed this idea: is there change? or, is it unchanging?
Paradise Tennant: wow that is a great question :)
Lucinda Lavender: I sense some change but in the space we were talking about ...it also seems unchnging.
Lucinda Lavender: the presence that we are is unchanging.
Pila Mulligan: here's one take (Lao Tse): The ten thousand things rise and fall while the Self watches their return. They grow and flourish and then return to the source. Returning to the source is stillness, which is the way of nature. The way of nature is unchanging.
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: thanks Pila...
Eliza Madrigal: beautiful, yes
Pila Mulligan: and yet another from the same source: The space between heaven and Earth is like a bellows. The shape changes but not the form; The more it moves, the more it yields.
Paradise Tennant: very beautiful ..
Pila Mulligan: so Lao Tse seems to have tkaen both sides and said some change, some not
Paradise Tennant: well like we live in a world of flickering shadows ..the flickering being the change :) but still just shadows :)
Lucinda Lavender: from a place of presence I kmust bid you all good night
Avastu Maruti: good night my friend
Pila Mulligan: bye Lucinda
Paradise Tennant: smiles good night lucinda nice to have seen you again :)
Eliza Madrigal: Night Luci :)
Calvino Rabeni: Avastu, I've been sympathetic to the "nondual" philosophy, but basically see no reliable way to know whether it is true - experiences can be illusory, as can inferences about reality
Avastu Maruti: your own self is all the proof you need
Lucinda Lavender: night Paradise, Pila, Eliza, Cal and Avastu.
Eliza Madrigal: I must get going also... late for me and I've been online quite a bit today
Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't seem proof-worthy - many say it doesnt even exist
Avastu Maruti: do you know you exist?
Eliza Madrigal: oooh... yes am going but you may like pema's recent writings on existence... hehe: http://wiki.playasbeing.org/PaB_Books/Magic_of_Time/1._Awareness
Eliza Madrigal: Appreciate the discussion and am happy to see you again Avastu (and Pila, and Paradise, and Cal)
Eliza Madrigal: Night :)
Avastu Maruti: good night my friend
Calvino Rabeni: DO I know I exist - frankly I seems a more dubious proposition than furniture
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza
Avastu Maruti: furniture comes and goes in your perception
Avastu Maruti: what you are never comes and goes
Calvino Rabeni: SO they say - why should I take their word for it?
Avastu Maruti: you shouldn't
Avastu Maruti: find out for yourself what is the root of this sense "I AM"
Calvino Rabeni: And if it can't be acertained by direct experience, or by infrerence, then why take a stand on that issue
Paradise Tennant: hmm seems unfair to the chairs :)
Calvino Rabeni: :) perhaps
Avastu Maruti: it cannot be ascertained by experience because it is the present experiencing itself
Calvino Rabeni: It cannot be ascertained in any way?
Avastu Maruti: to know it you can only BE it
Avastu Maruti: and you already are
Calvino Rabeni: SO it is just a definition
Avastu Maruti: definitions can only point to it
Calvino Rabeni: That's what I mean by inference
Avastu Maruti: are you present and aware, right now?
Calvino Rabeni: It is likely to be a highly conceptualized and experiential answer
Avastu Maruti: you can make it as such
Avastu Maruti: but are you?
Avastu Maruti: are you here
Avastu Maruti: are you aware?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but what is that - I don't have a way to know
Calvino Rabeni: I also think it is Friday = is it?
Avastu Maruti: you don't have a way to know it objectively
Avastu Maruti: as experience
Avastu Maruti: but you know it anyway
Avastu Maruti: it's undeniable
Calvino Rabeni: Or just surmise it
Avastu Maruti: you have to be here and aware to deny it
Calvino Rabeni: as a convention of thought perhaps
Calvino Rabeni: No, not actually
Avastu Maruti: you are running with concepts in avoidance of something very simple and obvious
Paradise Tennant: smiles
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: What is that but the "feeling of presence" and why should that be given some status of certainty?
Avastu Maruti: it is pointing to something beyond identifications
Avastu Maruti: beyond concepts
Calvino Rabeni: Something?
Pila Mulligan has to leave (but will let his avi sit so he can read the rest of the chat later on -- bye for now)
Avastu Maruti: there is a presence - a subjectivity which is beyond even the supposed subjective body and mind
Avastu Maruti: because body and mind are objective to you
Avastu Maruti: as such it has no objective attributes
Paradise Tennant: nature of mind
Calvino Rabeni: How do you know that you know that?
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Avastu Maruti: I know nothing at all
Calvino Rabeni: The mind is great at assumptions about its experiences
Avastu Maruti: yes
Calvino Rabeni: If you know nothing,why formulate non-dual philosophy and express it?
Avastu Maruti: who formulates?
Calvino Rabeni: I have no idea
Avastu Maruti: I am what you are
Paradise Tennant: is laughing now :)
Calvino Rabeni: Fair enough
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps people can be distracted from some of their suffering by contemplating the idea of nonduality :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles like trying to work out a puzzle from the inside out
Avastu Maruti smiles
Avastu Maruti: it's a puzzle with only one piece
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
Paradise Tennant: lol all connected
Paradise Tennant: like the wisdom knot :)
Calvino Rabeni: That is one easy puzzle
Avastu Maruti: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Unless the puzzle is to take it apart again
Avastu Maruti: that's the mind's job
Calvino Rabeni: Apart, together, apart, together, easily amused by playing with the same puzzle over and over agaon
Calvino Rabeni: Forgot the solution last time?
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: yep
Paradise Tennant: searches deep in her no mind non dual non self .. .. errr and it was again :)
Paradise Tennant: smiels
Paradise Tennant: oopss smiles
Calvino Rabeni: Your SL dress, Paradise, is kind of a good metaphor for "mind"
Paradise Tennant: yes
Calvino Rabeni: It has indistinct boundaries, is full of fractal structures that might or might not go inward to infinity
Paradise Tennant: there are not really there
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Calvino Rabeni: and we don't really know how it is constructed or what it is based on
Calvino Rabeni: Love that dress :)
Calvino Rabeni: Gotta get one :)
Paradise Tennant: distinctly pretty though :) that I know .. maybe estetic sense .. is more profound
Paradise Tennant: than we credit if for
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Anyway it is dinner time - I need to go ingest material objects and make them part of myself
Calvino Rabeni: So I'll slip put during the pause; thanks and goodbye everyone :)
Avastu Maruti: good night my friend
Paradise Tennant: smiles thank you cal .. as always for the great conversation bon appetit
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Avastu
Paradise Tennant: you have an engaging profile avastu ..you have been studying reality deeply :)
Avastu Maruti: the one who studies reality cannot be apart from reality itself
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: "i am what you are" very powerful thought
Avastu Maruti: it is Love in expression
Avastu Maruti: the expressions of Love are varied while Love itself is One
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: a most maligned .. state
Paradise Tennant: confused with all manner of materail distraction .. obsession ..confusion
Avastu Maruti: it is the mind which suffers states
Paradise Tennant: but in truth a simple oneness
Avastu Maruti: Love is an opening
Paradise Tennant: to the true .. to the real
Avastu Maruti: your own Self is the true and the real
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: but I have not self .. my trueness is beyond self no ?
Avastu Maruti: yes, Self is pointing to that presence
Paradise Tennant: welcome zon :)
Zon Quar: hi all
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Paradise Tennant: have you been to pab before zon .. :)
Zon Quar: many times
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: we are talking of love ..of oneness ..
Zon Quar: ah..any conclusions ?
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: well ..we know we are not furniture :)
Avastu Maruti: ha!
Pila Mulligan: back
Pila Mulligan: ... reading
Zon Quar: if there is oneness...isnt love then self love ?
Paradise Tennant: a very big self indeed :)
--BELL--

Zon Quar: gtg, called, bye all
Paradise Tennant: smiles bye zon
Paradise Tennant: smiles I seem to have .. a small dog .. emergency ..going to have to step out for a moment pls excuse me :)
Pila Mulligan: da dah ... looks like the Atman Question is sprouting now ("if there is oneness...isnt love then self love ? a very big self indeed :)")
Pila Mulligan: I hope Blue recovers okay
Pila Mulligan: I'm naive enough to suspect a few Big Questions circulate among our words regularly ... an especially common one being the Question of Self
Pila Mulligan: and I like to phrase that question this way: is karma p[ersonal?
Avastu Maruti: karma is completely personal
Avastu Maruti: and the personal is false
Pila Mulligan: yet some will deny that a self exists vis a vis the Self of ALL
Avastu Maruti: put it any way you like
Avastu Maruti: everyone knows the self
Pila Mulligan: of a self
Avastu Maruti: but what IS the self they do not know
Pila Mulligan: the Atman Question :)
Avastu Maruti: self is Self
Avastu Maruti: Atman is Brahman
Pila Mulligan: but is Self self?
Pila Mulligan: to keep up, I'd say some karma is personal, and my idea of personal is not false
Avastu Maruti: if by personal you mean that you are the only one
Pila Mulligan: no, actually by personal I mean a unique perspecitve of expereice
Pila Mulligan: but not the only one
Avastu Maruti: any experience must be unique
Avastu Maruti: relative
Pila Mulligan: related indeed
Avastu Maruti: is the subject of the experience itself another experience?
Paradise Tennant: back ..reading
Pila Mulligan: welcome back Paradise
Pila Mulligan: that was quick
Pila Mulligan: so far I've got the view that Atman is partly divisible into personal expereinces, and that the farthest an individual can reach in experience is the undivided Atman
Pila Mulligan: so the expereincer is the expereince in that sense
Avastu Maruti: the individual is the bondage
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: gotaa get some ice crea, :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles my dog is not quite as good as I thought was confusing I need a walk with I want more cheese :)
Pila Mulligan: aha, communication
Paradise Tennant: and what is freedom :)
Pila Mulligan: it is easier for me to say what independence is
Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure we are free
Pila Mulligan: or can be
Pila Mulligan: broaly we, our free will is circumscribed but our judgment can be independent
Pila Mulligan: broadly*
Paradise Tennant: lol means stepping out the we the me ..the I and swooshing into the question mark :) life as punctuation !
Pila Mulligan: again, relative to our bonds, to recylce Avastu's idea
Avastu Maruti: taking yourself to be born, to be limited in space and time, is the only bondage
Pila Mulligan: ;
Avastu Maruti: you refer falsely to an appearance called body and mind
Pila Mulligan: is there life before birth?
Avastu Maruti: as appearance it is experience to you
Avastu Maruti: Life is
Avastu Maruti: the body and mind are expressions of Life
Pila Mulligan: and after death?
Avastu Maruti: you weren't born - you are Life itself
Avastu Maruti: the body appears to you
Avastu Maruti: in you
Avastu Maruti: as you
Pila Mulligan: what appears withut a body?
Avastu Maruti: nothing
Pila Mulligan: aha, so death is The End?
Avastu Maruti: the end of what?
Pila Mulligan: something
Avastu Maruti: of the experience
Pila Mulligan: yes, the expereince?
Pila Mulligan: experience ends at death?
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: smiles and wonders if there was a beginning :)
Avastu Maruti: experience ends each day
Pila Mulligan: with sleep?
Avastu Maruti: yes
Pila Mulligan: what then about dreams?
Avastu Maruti: experience coming back
Pila Mulligan: or continuing?
Avastu Maruti: yes
Avastu Maruti: we call that consciousness
Pila Mulligan: so then perhpas consciousness does not end at death or begin at birth
Avastu Maruti: we might say Life is experiencing itself through a human experience
Pila Mulligan: the God was Lonely approach
Avastu Maruti: birth and death are ideas in consciousness
Avastu Maruti: without consciousness you have no ideas nor experiences
Pila Mulligan: thereby conscousness is defined
Avastu Maruti: yes - it is an object of knowledge
Paradise Tennant: maybe there are levels of consciousness than we can percieve .'
Paradise Tennant: and others we cannot
Pila Mulligan: I am sure I do not see them all p
Pila Mulligan: aradise
Avastu Maruti: you can have it any way you like
Paradise Tennant: smiles yes
Pila Mulligan: I actually would not want to get into some of them :)
Avastu Maruti: various levels of consciousness can be had
Paradise Tennant: holding out for chair existence .. chair reality life living as chair :)
Avastu Maruti: but who is it that experiences them?
Pila Mulligan: Paradise, Avatsu and Pila are among those experiencing
Avastu Maruti: Paradise, Avastu and Pila are experiences
Pila Mulligan: ok
Paradise Tennant: the big ? the experiencer of all things .. the .. beyond concept .. beyond .. the beyond
Pila Mulligan: agreeable :)
Pila Mulligan: Atman
Avastu Maruti: yes
Pila Mulligan: gate gate paragate
Avastu Maruti: you are present and aware
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Avastu Maruti: that presence of awareness is Atman
Avastu Maruti: the self
Avastu Maruti: your self
Paradise Tennant: our self
Avastu Maruti smiles
Pila Mulligan: and this is the sticking point with Buddhist dialogue :)
Pila Mulligan: PAradise my freind we are entering good surf
Pila Mulligan: but catching different waves
Pila Mulligan: Buddhsim seems to like One Self
Paradise Tennant: high fives you :)
Avastu Maruti: waves are all ocean, expressing itself
Pila Mulligan: shaka
Pila Mulligan: to extend Avastu's ideaOcean does not change :)
Avastu Maruti: all hinges on the sense of I AM
Avastu Maruti: it is both a barrier and a bridge
Paradise Tennant: how a bridge?
Pila Mulligan: hi Hokon
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
Paradise Tennant: hiya hokon gtsy :)
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
Pila Mulligan: what's new in virtue ethics?
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Pila Mulligan: :)
Hokon Cazalet: not much :Þ
Avastu Maruti: I AM , as a thought, is false - the mind can only attempt at quantifying that sense of being
Avastu Maruti: but that presence to which the words I AM point is the only reality
Avastu Maruti: the basis for appearance itself
Paradise Tennant: so the prescence that can perceive the appearances which are not real .. is real :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Avastu Maruti: an appearance is a form of something
Avastu Maruti: like gold chain is a name and form of gold
Avastu Maruti: the chain wants to find Gold
Avastu Maruti: it searches everywhere and has lots of concepts
Pila Mulligan: an appearance may perhaps even be a misercetion of somethinig
Avastu Maruti: levels of Gold
Pila Mulligan: fools gold
Pila Mulligan: mieperception*
Avastu Maruti: but all the while chain is only an appearance of Gold
Pila Mulligan: mis*
Avastu Maruti: chain cannot seek nor find
Hokon Cazalet: what if appearance is real, but only fragments of the real
Avastu Maruti: for there really is no such thing as chain apart from an appearance or form of gold
Paradise Tennant: smiles watches her fingers type thinking they are only the appearance of fingers :) lol
Pila Mulligan: but can the appearance then vary in degrees of consistency with its essential form?
Avastu Maruti: appearance IS the real
--BELL--

Pila Mulligan: aha
Avastu Maruti: but not AS appearance
Avastu Maruti: taking appearance as absolute is taking reality as separate
Avastu Maruti: we must ask - what IS it?
Paradise Tennant: from being
Pila Mulligan: so appearance can be distinguishable from reality
Pila Mulligan: or even from being
Avastu Maruti: appearance IS reality in essence
Avastu Maruti: but not AS appearance
Hokon Cazalet: well appearnces are sensations, sensations we judge to be about something out there
Avastu Maruti: AS a chain, as a rock
Avastu Maruti: what IS Chain, what IS rock?
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Avastu Maruti: what is furniture... :)
Pila Mulligan: what is ice cream :)
Avastu Maruti: what is cheese?
Avastu Maruti: we can only apply our knowledge of appearance
Avastu Maruti: and then take that appearance or form or expression AS absolute
Avastu Maruti: what is it an expression OF?
Hokon Cazalet: but we can see things beyond appearances, The Chain is never seen, only examples of it are seen
Hokon Cazalet: sorry, we can infer*
Avastu Maruti: yes
Hokon Cazalet: we dont see Gold, but only examples of gold
Avastu Maruti: in fact you only ever see Gold
Hokon Cazalet: do we? the gold we see decays, turns into other things
Avastu Maruti: the goldsmith doesn't care for the ornaments, only the gold
Hokon Cazalet: gold can be mixed with others things
Avastu Maruti: of course
Avastu Maruti: because gold is not the essence
Avastu Maruti: chain/gold is a metaphor
Hokon Cazalet: so a metaphor for what?
Avastu Maruti: Life
Avastu Maruti: Reality
Avastu Maruti: Being
Avastu Maruti: You
Pila Mulligan: how about God, is God a metaphor?
Avastu Maruti: all words are concepts
Hokon Cazalet: how does one see the Form behind the appearances?
Hokon Cazalet: the Idea
Avastu Maruti: what is your idea of God?
Pila Mulligan: ambiguous
Avastu Maruti: yes
Pila Mulligan: probaly a plytheistic pantheon
Pila Mulligan: plo*
Pila Mulligan: multiple forms
Hokon Cazalet: im into neoplatonic views of God
Pila Mulligan: giving rise to 10,000 appearances
Avastu Maruti: giving rise, or being the essence of the 10,000 appearances?
Pila Mulligan: either
Pila Mulligan: or the latter if poreferred )
Pila Mulligan: the quintessence even
Avastu Maruti: we might say there isn't just one God, there is only God
Avastu Maruti: if that is so, then the world, body and thoughts are only of God
Paradise Tennant: lol thinks my dog/ god is divine and practises daily worship :)
Hokon Cazalet: not all is God, physical things decay
Pila Mulligan: yea dog
Avastu Maruti: where do they go?
Hokon Cazalet: they are metaphors, shadows
Pila Mulligan: hi adoro
Avastu Maruti: what is the power by which they are created and decay?
Hokon Cazalet: they shadow vanishes for a while, as the Thing that creates them moves elsewhere to other azppearances
adoro Rhapsody: hi
Hokon Cazalet: hi =)
Paradise Tennant: hiya adoro
Avastu Maruti: so there is some "thing" which is apart from things and acts upon them?
Paradise Tennant: welcome
Paradise Tennant: have you been to pab before ;)
Avastu Maruti: hello my friend
adoro Rhapsody: thnx
adoro Rhapsody: yes this is fifth time
adoro Rhapsody: to pab
Paradise Tennant: ahh kk :)
Hokon Cazalet: we can imagine the Ideal Beings as without shadows, but cannot imagine shadows with the Ideals
Paradise Tennant: we are talking of .. god .. being ..love .. the true and furniture :)
Hokon Cazalet: so yes they are separate in one sense, in another, not
Avastu Maruti: you are the Ideal itself
Hokon Cazalet: am i? i am ignorant of many things, the ideal person would be omniscient
Avastu Maruti: look into the sense and certainty of I AM
adoro Rhapsody: shadow are only because of sun
Hokon Cazalet: i am also a mere shadow
Hokon Cazalet: i am is a logical function of the ego, or a sensual presence of one's lived-life
adoro Rhapsody: no light no shadow
Avastu Maruti: the ideal person is a concept
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Pila Mulligan: is virtue simply an idea?
Hokon Cazalet: concepts are about ideals
Avastu Maruti: omniscience simply means all-knowing
adoro Rhapsody: and concepts dont work
Avastu Maruti: are you not that already?
Hokon Cazalet: no, its self-evident
Hokon Cazalet: i do not know quantum physics, ergo, i am not omnioscient
Avastu Maruti: you are the self-evidence
Avastu Maruti: ha!
Hokon Cazalet: yes i am the basis of self-evidence
Paradise Tennant: if I am all knowing I seem to have temporary amnesia :)
Avastu Maruti: must you know all relative knowledge?
Hokon Cazalet: an archetypal person would have no privation of his essence, knowing is part of man
Avastu Maruti: does God know how to juggle?
Hokon Cazalet: the traditional God would
Avastu Maruti: ha!
Pila Mulligan: seems to do it alot
Paradise Tennant: smiles .. at least how to make a juggler :)
Hokon Cazalet: but im not into the traditional God =)
Pila Mulligan: juggle :)
Avastu Maruti: man appears IN knowing
Avastu Maruti: as does everything
adoro Rhapsody: knowing appears in man
Avastu Maruti: all you truly know is a changing field of experience which you assign names
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Hokon Cazalet: i know more, i know some of the essential features of that field of experiences
--BELL--

Avastu Maruti: the body is a concept for that field
Avastu Maruti: as is mind
adoro Rhapsody: and other assign other names
adoro Rhapsody: to it
Avastu Maruti: in fact you know nothing truly of a body outside of your concepts
Hokon Cazalet: maybe, maybe not
adoro Rhapsody: corect
Hokon Cazalet: what is a body?
adoro Rhapsody: u r a body
Avastu Maruti: that's what you believe
Hokon Cazalet: what is a body?
Avastu Maruti: but is it so in direct experience?
Paradise Tennant: smiles knows her perception of her body is sleepy and bids everyone a fond good night . thank you all for the wonderful conversation :)
adoro Rhapsody: we call it a body
Avastu Maruti: good night my friend
Pila Mulligan: bye Paradise
Hokon Cazalet: hehe bye paradise
Avastu Maruti: yes, you call it a body
adoro Rhapsody: night
Paradise Tennant: smiles night all :)
adoro Rhapsody: mmm
Avastu Maruti: do you truly know with absolute certainty what it is?
Hokon Cazalet: maybe i dont
adoro Rhapsody: no of course not
Avastu Maruti: and of the mind?
Hokon Cazalet: hence i ask, what is a body, or more, what is my body?
Pila Mulligan: hi Carl
Avastu Maruti: you know changing patterns
adoro Rhapsody: hi carl
Carl Greymoon: AVAS--- nothing is 100% certain, so we proceed with limited information
Hokon Cazalet: and there is a persistence behind the changes
Pila Mulligan: a related question might be something like what s health?
Carl Greymoon: hello ADORO
Avastu Maruti: yes
Hokon Cazalet: my Ego perceives these changes, thus it must persist
Avastu Maruti: there is a persistence behind the changes
Avastu Maruti: that persistence is you
Hokon Cazalet: and an external world persists, as these changes do not originate from myself
adoro Rhapsody: its nature
Avastu Maruti: you project the existence of an external world due to inadvertence
Hokon Cazalet: yeah, ego and cosmos
Hokon Cazalet: project? well let us explore
Carl Greymoon: the EGO is this verbal feedback loop about ourselves.. that evolves when we learn language-- Helen Keller figured this out when she learned the touch-sign for "water"
Hokon Cazalet: what is the difference, between imagination and perception?
Avastu Maruti: no difference
Hokon Cazalet: no, there is, perception is seeing another thing; imagination is seeing what your mind made
Avastu Maruti: you imagine that you perceive
Hokon Cazalet: maybe we never have perceptions
adoro Rhapsody: imagine perception
Avastu Maruti: there is no other thing
Hokon Cazalet: ok so youd argue, we never have perceptions, just imaginations we confuse as perceptions
Avastu Maruti: perceptions and perceiving are the same reality
Carl Greymoon: we have varying degrees of confidence about SOME things, ideas and people
Hokon Cazalet: ok ill use other terms
Hokon Cazalet: since this is getting confused
adoro Rhapsody: perceptions r things perceiving is anaction
Hokon Cazalet: we have imagination, then the possibility of seeing-another
Avastu Maruti: the only confusion is that you exist as a separate thing
Hokon Cazalet: well lets humor this inquiry, if we cannot know what imagiation vs. seeing-another is, we cant say we have either of them
Carl Greymoon: AVA are you explaining Vedanta Hinduism ?
Hokon Cazalet: nor can we know if we see an external world or not
Avastu Maruti: who has the perception or imagination?
adoro Rhapsody: but we call it external
Hokon Cazalet: not important here
Avastu Maruti: are you a person, an entity abiding in a body?
Avastu Maruti: have you ever investigated that idea?
adoro Rhapsody: god only knows
Hokon Cazalet: i am merely wanting to know what they are, in itself, so i can judge, if i see an external world, or if it is actually a projection
Hokon Cazalet: yes i have
Avastu Maruti: and did you find a little person abiding in the head?
Hokon Cazalet: one case, my sense of my body shifted from being my human flesh to being time itself =)
Carl Greymoon: AVA WE ARE our body-- a whirlpool that is made of chemicals and information... stuff going in and out
adoro Rhapsody: u r projecting your own world to the external world
Avastu Maruti: yes
Hokon Cazalet: lets stick to the issue of perception vs imagination, as this is key
Avastu Maruti: so the idea of yourself as limited fell away
Pila Mulligan: my little person is abiding in the belly :)
Carl Greymoon: Hoken-- color outside the lins
Carl Greymoon: lines
Hokon Cazalet: you keep saying we project reality, yet we lack the tools to even judge if this is true or false
Hokon Cazalet: im trying to make those tools, now
Carl Greymoon: AVA ever done shrooms?
Avastu Maruti: you need not judge it either way, my friend
Hokon Cazalet: here and now
Avastu Maruti: only look for yourself
Avastu Maruti: no words can possibly express it
Hokon Cazalet: well my concern is truth
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: sorry
Hokon Cazalet: then stop talking about it :Þ
Avastu Maruti: stop talking about what?
Hokon Cazalet: good =)
adoro Rhapsody: or bad
Carl Greymoon: Alan Watts in THE TABOO ON KNOWING WHO YOUR ARE explained all of this stuff pretty well
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Pila Mulligan: this has been an interesting evening of thoughts and ideas, thanks -- and bye foronw