The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.

Arch, Adoro and I are at the pavilion when we are joined by Cal and then others.  We begin a multi-stranding conversation with a greeting by Cal on this Sunday 1pm meeting: God day.

Maxine Walden: hi, Calvino
Calvino Rabeni: God day Max, Arch, Adoro
Archmage Atlantis: God? day
Maxine Walden: :)
adoro Rhapsody: it was sunday here maybe god's day ?
Calvino Rabeni: Is that a typo, a freudian slip, or a reference to the day being Sunday ...
adoro Rhapsody: both
Maxine Walden: funny how there can be several strands...
adoro Rhapsody: very funny
Maxine Walden: all of which may be relevant in subtle ways
adoro Rhapsody: could be
Calvino Rabeni: And it could be all of those at the same time
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Maxine Walden: yes, so interesting
adoro Rhapsody: ah theres friend bruce
adoro Rhapsody: he made that i came back to pab
adoro Rhapsody: and cal also
Maxine Walden: ah, good friends
adoro Rhapsody: hi bruce
Maxine Walden: hi, Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, everyone -- sorry I'm late.
adoro Rhapsody: how is blub today ?
Maxine Walden: np, Bruce, glad you could come
Bruce Mowbray: He's having a swimmingly good day, thanks.
Maxine Walden: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Nimbus is insisteng on being held, then fed......brb........pets in aquariums are easier
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Maxine Walden: ah...

I had been wishing to share something of an experience and some thoughts, partly emerging from Pema's discussions of Appearance and Awareness in the Time sessions.    

Maxine Walden: Wanted to share an experience I had last evening, one that sort of fits into some things we have spoken about recently, re time and maybe Time
Archmage Atlantis: go
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Maxine Walden: Was at the end of the day, and I was relaxing amidst the beauty of the edge of a forest with tall trees and birds...
Maxine Walden: and in my relaxing into the beauty, I felt a softening into a wordless appreciative state, no words, just 'appreciaiton' I guess...
morgano Bravin: hello
Yakuzza Lethecus: hey everyone
Maxine Walden: and I found that I completely lost touch with clock time...
morgano Bravin: helloYaku
adoro Rhapsody: hi
Maxine Walden: hi, morgano
morgano Bravin: Hi Maxine
adoro Rhapsody: so u had a timeless experience
Maxine Walden: don't know how long I was there at the edge of the forest...must have been 45 min or so...but so different from the previous experiences of the day
morgano Bravin: sorry for being late in this converse but were you in RL or in a dream Maxine?
Maxine Walden: Wondering if others often experience this, as if when amidst beauty, maybe natural beauty, one can easily lost track of time...as if something else becomes the container.
--BELL--
Maxine Walden: Morgano, this was an RL experience of relaxing into beauty
morgano Bravin: ty
adoro Rhapsody: i was at a ceramists matket and saw such a beauty that i forgot time
adoro Rhapsody: market
Maxine Walden: :) adoro
Maxine Walden: a similar experience, it sounds like
Calvino Rabeni: Did this experience happen unintentionally, Max, or did you aim for it?
adoro Rhapsody: sure'
morgano Bravin: I have felt this too,at times. It reminds me oon reflexion of an extravagance that we rarely afford ourselves to appreciate our surroundings
Maxine Walden: unintentionally, Cal,
Maxine Walden: yes, morgano
Calvino Rabeni: I go along with that, morgano
Maxine Walden: to appreciate in a spacious, open-hearted way, perhaps?
morgano Bravin: I think we are usually too affraid to let go of our regular timetables of responsibilities
Calvino Rabeni: I see it as to open the depth of self to respond to the depth of nature
adoro Rhapsody: and mostly we have to keep our timeshedules
morgano Bravin: in case we loose ourselvesin another realm of reality
adoro Rhapsody: for work
Maxine Walden: agree, morgano, Calvino, adoro...what are we so afraid of, I wonder?
Maxine Walden: ah, possibly another realm of reality, morgano suggests
adoro Rhapsody: being too late
Calvino Rabeni: Work and schedules can have an influence, true, but the life of the unemployed schedule-less hermit is not guaranteed of such openness

It seems Arch may be preparing another source of nourishment, physical food.  We go on discussing the relationship between the apprehension of beauty and timelessness and perhaps the converse of boredom and time-boundedness

Archmage Atlantis: Apologize...my attempt to cook brown rice with rosemary from the yard is being problematic
adoro Rhapsody: i see
Maxine Walden: sorry, Arch...
Archmage Atlantis: I now have rosemary flavored ride mush
Maxine Walden: are we afraid of losing ourselves if we are 'open'?
Archmage Atlantis: I'll read back
Calvino Rabeni: In relation to what you described, I was thinking of the related experience that people call "boredom"
Maxine Walden: OK, arch
Calvino Rabeni: Is there not a distinctive time-sense to boredom?
Maxine Walden: think so, Cal, care to say more?
Calvino Rabeni: Not the one that is allowing of fullness of expeience
Calvino Rabeni: The word boredom probably labels many distinct experiences
adoro Rhapsody: mintes too late is nonsens when thinking of your whole lifetime
Calvino Rabeni: for me in different times
adoro Rhapsody: minutes
Calvino Rabeni: and maybe for other people
Calvino Rabeni: boredom has an inability to be present with that beauty
adoro Rhapsody: boredom is muse for creativity
Calvino Rabeni: at the same time maybe a sense of time going by
Maxine Walden: hi, Ara
morgano Bravin: Hello Arabella
adoro Rhapsody: hi ara
adoro Rhapsody: bella
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
morgano Bravin: time is relative
Calvino Rabeni: Basically I think the body is full of clocks - little molecular or chemical machines, as is the world around us
Calvino Rabeni: and experience depends on which we give attention to, partly
adoro Rhapsody: SURE
Maxine Walden: we're talking about being open to beauty which may open us to timelessness whereas when we are bored, we may feel narrow and time-bound...sort of a summary, Ara
arabella Ella: thanks Maxine very interesting topic
Calvino Rabeni: take the experience of a fountain - a RL one, or maybe this one here, if we associate it with RL

Calvino elaborates on beauty, a term and concept which may be coming under some scrutiny

Calvino Rabeni: the beauty of a fountain is that it somehow induces a feeling of timelessness
Maxine Walden: very interesting...
Calvino Rabeni: how does that work, I wonder?
adoro Rhapsody: ok but it is artificial
Maxine Walden: does our experience of beauty open us up to timelessness
adoro Rhapsody: artificial beauty is other than natural beauty
Archmage Atlantis: Better, the can of garbanzo gave it a way
arabella Ella: through perhaps a sense of repetitiveness or a sense of the 'perceived infinite'?
Archmage Atlantis: Now to decide if it will be a spread, or a side dish
arabella Ella: or unique aspects?
Calvino Rabeni: I feel a difference, however throughout history there has been Art, and at times it's been concerned with invoking experience of beauty
morgano Bravin: pass mea bowl Arch
Maxine Walden: :) at the at least two strands here: beauty nourishing us, opening us perhaps, and Arch's recipe of another nourishment
adoro Rhapsody: hi dash
Dash Earthboy: howdy
Calvino Rabeni: @ara, older european cities more fountains than the US
Maxine Walden: hi, dash
arabella Ella: :)
Dash Earthboy: don't let me interrupt
arabella Ella: more timeless and eternal fountains perhaps Calvino too
Archmage Atlantis: The US is a fountain, just a differently flavored one
Calvino Rabeni: yes, they were constructed - for that perhaps?
--BELL--
Liza Deischer: hi everyone :)
arabella Ella: Hiya Liza
Maxine Walden: hi, Liza
Calvino Rabeni: This fountain was imported to my town, from Europe http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/w6MJWWw9tBeLn7LBoANBv7JHoP4nwMm6e-m3CzQkXic?feat=directlink
adoro Rhapsody: hi liza
Calvino Rabeni: The water in the pool circles slowly counter-clockwise like Blub
arabella Ella: well Calvino most ancient monuments were built as a sort of 'marker' to pay homage to someone or something for possibly an 'infinite' period of time
Archmage Atlantis: All is possible here, when we are here
morgano Bravin: I think sometimes of harmonious resonances...maybe we are programed to operate in a slightly different mode to the world we have created,,and we are not evolutionarily in sync with it yet
arabella Ella: stonehenge, pyramids, etc
morgano Bravin: I visited a stone circle today,,it was very nice to do so
Calvino Rabeni: We could do these states of mind if the whole world were only a parking garage, but, it's marvelous when humans construct such artful places and monuments to externally express and focus those experiences
Dash Earthboy: i look at a pyramid and see a fireant mound
Dash Earthboy: and vice versa
Archmage Atlantis: The brown rice and garbanzo are definity good, still need chips or something
Maxine Walden: hi, Eliza
Liza Deischer: hi Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Maxine :), Everyone
morgano Bravin: yes Arch, chips are good,,dont listen to anyone else
arabella Ella: Hi Eliza
arabella Ella: What is garbanzo Arch? is it food?
Maxine Walden: Eliza, we are talking moreless about timelessness and beauty and our various experiences of that...also about Arch's food dish
Eliza Madrigal: Long time since I've seen you Ara ::::waves:::
arabella Ella: yes i have been busy recently but good to see you and the rest Eliza!
Archmage Atlantis: Food is timeliss
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, sounds great. Thank you Maxine
Bruce Mowbray: [and Blub's counter-clockwise habit. . . ]
Archmage Atlantis: It is life
Archmage Atlantis: I see no disconnect
Maxine Walden: ah, another aspect of timelessness, Arch. Food
Bruce Mowbray: [unless viewed from the bottom -up: in that case, clockwise habit]
Maxine Walden: :)
Eliza Madrigal: blub moves like the dream circle ;-)
Maxine Walden: :)
Bruce Mowbray thinks: I see no disconnect.
adoro Rhapsody: neither do i
Bruce Mowbray: the disconnect, perhaps, is the delusion of separation.
Bruce Mowbray: or the illusion of it.
adoro Rhapsody: ok that makes us one
Dash Earthboy: is there some distinction between timeless, ancient and eternal?
adoro Rhapsody: all we here
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh! Being sharers.
Eliza Madrigal pondering timelessness and beauty... considering what makes something a work of 'art' rather than a doodle...
Archmage Atlantis: To share one's being is to share all
Archmage Atlantis: The consequences, they are are accepted
Bruce Mowbray: Dash, yes, there are such distinctions (and also between art and doodles) -- but where do those distingtions come from?
Eliza Madrigal: maybe it is in part, that... the resonating quality... evoking something one recognizes ...
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Maxine Walden: we had wondered whether a work of art may open us up. yes, as Eliza is mentioning
adoro Rhapsody: when u say beautiful u introduce uglyness
Calvino Rabeni: better not speak then :)
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) - - - Language has its pitfalls . . .
Calvino Rabeni: just kidding - I think to recognize one is to recognize the othe?
Eliza Madrigal: beauty doesn't have to something contrasted against something else perhaps
Archmage Atlantis: I do not chose to accept ugly, deformed, imperfect.....and the other words
Eliza Madrigal: *be
adoro Rhapsody: ok
adoro Rhapsody: thats the spirit arch
Maxine Walden: we did wonder about the limittions of language...and maybe something which opens us up, and feels beautiful takes us beyond language and judgments
--BELL--
Archmage Atlantis: A man, who lost his legs in combat, in a war I did not believe in, is not deformed
Archmage Atlantis: Only he belived
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Liza Deischer: I agree with adoro
Eliza Madrigal: yes Maxine
Archmage Atlantis: I will care for him......as I will care for the others on both sides of that combat
adoro Rhapsody: of course
morgano Bravin: wellsaid Arch
adoro Rhapsody: its a human being
adoro Rhapsody: part of nature
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, looks like I dropped in too soon... my daughter is calling for me to see if the room is clean so she can buy fabric ... :) Nice to see everyone. Thanks
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, liza.
Maxine Walden: bye Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: THe beauty of the man comes from the human being and nature, not the form of legs or no legs
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, Cal, on that I agree
arabella Ella: bye Eliza
Calvino Rabeni: and I think I'll go along today with adoro's point
Bruce Mowbray: You know, we talk like this, and are comfortable with our dialogue - - But do you realize how RADICAL this sort of thinking is for most people?
Maxine Walden: beauty also comes from our attitude toward whatever we are viewing, I think

I believe in here there is a bit of a joking, slightly cynical turn in the discussion, perhaps out of fatigue, it is nearly to the hour, but perhaps for other reasons which to me are less clear at this point.

Dash Earthboy: while i cannot deny there are things in this world i find ugly and horrifying, i wonder if the idea of integrated duality is any less illusionary than our apparent separateness?
Calvino Rabeni: But I'm still having a problem with "urban blight" :)
adoro Rhapsody: deeply thinking dash
morgano Bravin: no Bruce
Archmage Atlantis: Good question, Dash.........to be integrated, yet not bo be individual
Bruce Mowbray: Good point, Dash.
Wol Euler: hello everyone, sorry I'mlate
Maxine Walden: hi, Wol
adoro Rhapsody: time doesnt matter
Liza Deischer: hi Wol
Archmage Atlantis: Your generations problem
Bruce Mowbray: hi, wol -- Can you please define "late"? -- just kidding.
arabella Ella: Hiya Wol
adoro Rhapsody: even as size doesnt matter
Wol Euler is amused by Calvino's tag.
arabella Ella: do we perceive 'ugly' in nature in the same way we perceive it in humans i wonder ... except for natural disasters of course?
Bruce Mowbray: I can increase my size (and yours too) just by rolling the little wheel back and forth.
adoro Rhapsody: can u define kidding ?
Archmage Atlantis: Late i s 5 minutes before everyone scoots and boogies
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) Kidding -- haning baby goats.
Bruce Mowbray: having.
Calvino Rabeni: Has anyone noticed - that one can't define *anything* ?
Wol Euler nods
Dash Earthboy: yes "late" and "size" can be as personally arbitrary as "beauty"
Archmage Atlantis: Thinks of hanging babyy goats, and wonders
morgano Bravin: I thought it was 4 Cal?
adoro Rhapsody: lol
Dash Earthboy: i do like my goat milk but wouldn't hang a goat to get it!
Bruce Mowbray oh dear! No one's hanging baby goats today, are they?
adoro Rhapsody: sure
Dash Earthboy: typo Arch?
adoro Rhapsody: i like goat cheese too
Bruce Mowbray: yum yum.
Maxine Walden: It seems we have meandered from considering beauty and timelessness into other regions
Maxine Walden: :)
Dash Earthboy: goat milk is beautiful to me!
adoro Rhapsody: it not only seems but is real
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- What I want to know is this: mDid beauty exist before humans were here to behold and frame it?

Feeling a bit perplexed I then say.  The discussion does continue elaborating on beauty being part of the perspective of the viewing mind

Maxine Walden: (not sure what the title of the chatlog will be today...)
Bruce Mowbray: Did beauty exist at the time of dinosaurs and before?
adoro Rhapsody: goood question
Bruce Mowbray: Does beauty exist on other galaxies?
adoro Rhapsody: beauty is a stateof mind
Bruce Mowbray: then it didn't exist before there WERE minds.
adoro Rhapsody: because u r worth it
Wol Euler: only if they are inhabited, bruce, but if they are then dfinitely yes
Dash Earthboy: yes beautiful minds
Dash Earthboy: like mine
Dash Earthboy: but seriously
Bruce Mowbray: I profoundly disagree.
arabella Ella: is it not first necessary to perceive beauty which cannot be recognised as such if not perceived?
Bruce Mowbray: (not about your beautiful mind).
Wol Euler: plaese do :)
Dash Earthboy: beauty is basically an adjective we've turned into a noun
Bruce Mowbray: beauty is inherent in Being.
Wol Euler: are you saying that other galaxies do not Be?
morgano Bravin: I think I go with you Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: it out-pictures in symmetry, balance, poise, and so forth.
Wol Euler: oh, I see, sorry. with you now.
Wol Euler: but I still think I'
morgano Bravin: creation of all things was by God,,as such beautiful
Bruce Mowbray: (I'm stating this strongly for the sake of provoking a discussion...)
Wol Euler: still think I'm right :)
Yakuzza Lethecus sneaks to bed, bye everyone
Wol Euler: "beauty" is a tag that we glue onto thinigs that have certain attributes.
Maxine Walden: bye, Yaku
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Wol Euler: bye yaku, take care
Dash Earthboy: bye Y
arabella Ella: night Yaku
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Yaku.
Archmage Atlantis: Beauty, to me, is the ability to see the reality....or the function in that reality, of an existing "thing"
Dash Earthboy: yes Wol, an adjective
Wol Euler: the attributes are there in any case, but without somebody to look at them and like them, they are not beautiful
Bruce Mowbray: Agree, Arch.
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: So -- no noise in forest without humans to hear it?
Wol Euler: example: three hundred years ago, people went through the Alps with the curtains of their carriages tightly shut, so as not to see the ugly mountains
adoro Rhapsody: but now we can see them with street-view
morgano Bravin: beauty can be anything that we can appreciate,,even horror or war or whatever
Agatha Macbeth: Ey up
adoro Rhapsody: its peronal
morgano Bravin: eye up mi duck
adoro Rhapsody: personal
Dash Earthboy: the idea of "beauty" is as subjective as the idea of "quality of life"
Wol Euler: hallo aggers
adoro Rhapsody: u hit the nail
Bruce Mowbray: a difference between "taste" for mountains and "beauty"
Agatha Macbeth waves to Wol
Liza Deischer: (finally another sound about beauty)
Bruce Mowbray: taste involves "preference" -- Beauty does not.
Maxine Walden: Have to go. Great, varied conversation with so many different perspectives...
Agatha Macbeth: Morgano, why is your head on fire?
Calvino Rabeni: I don't really believe in that "subjective" idea ...
Maxine Walden: bye all for now

I have to leave and reading the subsequent log it struck me that the sense of beauty and all the statements and counter-statements are a part of the discourse on beauty-and-Being, all aspects of the continuous oneness.  See, dear reader, what your impressions are...

Bruce Mowbray: bye, Max.
Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Max
arabella Ella: bye Maxine
morgano Bravin: I am hot headed
Dash Earthboy: you don't think Beauty is a matter of taste?
Calvino Rabeni: .. though I've had landscapes transform from ugly to beautiful before my gaze
Wol Euler pats the cushion next to her.
morgano Bravin: nye Maxine
Agatha Macbeth: Yep, that works...
Bruce Mowbray: Morgano's head is on firse because of the angle of your viewpoint.
Bruce Mowbray: fire.
Agatha Macbeth: It's on firse as well???
Agatha Macbeth: Man...
Calvino Rabeni: Who is on firse?
Bruce Mowbray: No -- I do NOT think beauty is a matter of taste.
Agatha Macbeth: I do
Calvino Rabeni: I don't eithe
Bruce Mowbray: I think liking loiver or not is a matter of taste.
adoro Rhapsody: i do
Bruce Mowbray: liver.
Agatha Macbeth: Yay
morgano Bravin: one could see an animan in full flight during a kill and see the beauty in it
Dash Earthboy: i have seen anorexic people that others thought were beautiful
Agatha Macbeth: What's an animan?
Bruce Mowbray: Fascinating that we seem to have diversity here regarding the "being-ness" of beauty.
adoro Rhapsody: twiggy
Dash Earthboy: i have seen homeless people that others thought were ugly
morgano Bravin: its like me
Agatha Macbeth: I remember her
Dash Earthboy: it is definitely a matter of taste
adoro Rhapsody: but taste u can develop
Bruce Mowbray muses: Liver is definitely a matter of taste.
Dash Earthboy: true Bruce
Dash Earthboy: i didn't like liver till I made it myself
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Agatha Macbeth can't stand liver
arabella Ella: so is brain
Agatha Macbeth: tastes like metal
Dash Earthboy: despised my mother's liver meals
adoro Rhapsody: maturity develops tatse
adoro Rhapsody: tatse
adoro Rhapsody: taste
morgano Bravin: a bloody Liver framed and hung on a wall could look beautiful,,but I wouldnt eat one
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, liver.... chocolate ... kind of a toss-up :)
Agatha Macbeth prfers tatse
Dash Earthboy: ah, but adoro even "maturity" is subjective
Bruce Mowbray: perhaps "mindful" maturity develops a sense of beauty in all things.
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Calvino Rabeni: perhaps it does
adoro Rhapsody: u got me
Dash Earthboy: is comedy a thing of beauty?
Bruce Mowbray: You have a beautiful laugh, adoro!
Agatha Macbeth: No, just a talent
Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- comedy is a thing of beauty.
adoro Rhapsody: thats subjective, u got taste
Calvino Rabeni: can a mindful appreciation of beauty do without the idea that subjectivity means "I create my world all by myself" ?
Agatha Macbeth: Or tatse
Bruce Mowbray: Well, subjectivity is one place to look for beauty, that's for sure.
Dash Earthboy: sorry about the timing but i must bow out for another meeting on a radio show (New Orleans music)
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps the well-tuned subjectivity is a mind that can "tune in" to objective beauty
Dash Earthboy: some think that's beautiful
Wol Euler: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Calvino infomed us that the moon was a "fingernail" the other night.
Bruce Mowbray: That prompted me to go outside and behod the moon.
morgano Bravin: goodnight Dash
Dash Earthboy: bye for now
Wol Euler: bye dash
Agatha Macbeth waves
Bruce Mowbray: It looked like a fingernail -- for the first time in my life.
adoro Rhapsody: goodnight
Bruce Mowbray: Bye, Dash.
Liza Deischer: I don't know, but if you deny the subjectivity of beauty it is likely that it becomes an attachement
arabella Ella: bye Dash
Liza Deischer: so we need to look into our subjectivity
adoro Rhapsody: but groupwise subjectivity can turn into objectivitey
Calvino Rabeni: yes true, but what assumptions come along with that idea of subjectivity?
Liza Deischer: nee to see where 'I' comes in
Bruce Mowbray: say more, please, adoro.
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Liza Deischer: I disagree adoro
Bruce Mowbray: agreed, Liza.
adoro Rhapsody: when we share our subjective thoughts the resultant can be objective
Bruce Mowbray: oopsss---- cyber-discombabulations here.
Bruce Mowbray: interesting, adoro.
Liza Deischer: it is what we call 'normal' and that is what most people think by the number of mijority
Bruce Mowbray: can be received objectively by others, you mean?
Liza Deischer: myjority
adoro Rhapsody: thats the root of democracy , maybe
adoro Rhapsody: majority counts
Liza Deischer: democracy is 50 % +1
Bruce Mowbray: Plato: democracy is next to the worst possible form of government.
Liza Deischer: it leaves out minorities
adoro Rhapsody: ok
Bruce Mowbray: Tyranny of the majority.
Agatha Macbeth: Tell him to stick to his cave
adoro Rhapsody: so its imperfect
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
morgano Bravin: what was the no one worst?
Wol Euler is too tired for a discussion of politics. Sorry :)
Bruce Mowbray: It's a done with shadows in there!
Agatha Macbeth: Plato += cave man
Calvino Rabeni: I believe Beauty is not a popular subject for Philosophy in recent times -- would you agree, arabella?
Wol Euler: goodnight all, take care
Wol Euler: haggle well
Liza Deischer: bye Wol
Agatha Macbeth: Shalom Wol
morgano Bravin: goodnight Wol
adoro Rhapsody: but its human
adoro Rhapsody: goodnight
arabella Ella: i think it is still popular Calvino but it has moved more towards other topics such as cultural studies and aesthetics in art
Bruce Mowbray: Was someone discussing politics in here?
arabella Ella: night Wol
Agatha Macbeth: Probably
adoro Rhapsody: sorry
Calvino Rabeni: but then it isn't beauty any more?
adoro Rhapsody: maybe because of democracy
arabella Ella: why not?
Liza Deischer: i think we need to assume beauty is subjective, until we can exclude the 'I'
Calvino Rabeni: where's the beauty in cultural studies ... it kind of disappears
Liza Deischer: or ego
adoro Rhapsody: the D-word
Liza Deischer: because I and ego might not be the same
Agatha Macbeth: Dandruff?
Calvino Rabeni: There is one contemporary philsopher of beauty, John ODonohue
morgano Bravin: beauty is what we afford ourselves to appreciate,,as far as our value of it is concerned
Bruce Mowbray: agree, Lisa, but because beauty is subjective -- can it not also be part of Being itself -- and therefore me timeless?
Calvino Rabeni: who I found worth reading
arabella Ella: i think beauty may tend to disappear when one tries to impose rules as i strongly believe it is possible to see beauty in anything or anyone
--BELL--
adoro Rhapsody: i go to make a beauty-nap
Bruce Mowbray: bye, adoro.
adoro Rhapsody: beacause i am worth it
adoro Rhapsody: bye
Bruce Mowbray: sleep in beauty, friend.
Liza Deischer: bye Adoro
morgano Bravin: bye Adoro
Agatha Macbeth: Say goodnight Dick 'Goodnight Dick'
adoro Rhapsody: thamks lóreal
morgano Bravin: I need a nap too,,goodnight all
Liza Deischer: I don't think so Ara, but it gets another dimension
Liza Deischer: hmmm, chatlag
arabella Ella: maybe
arabella Ella: it is a complex topic really
Liza Deischer: what I don't except right now is that beauty is much different from uglyness
arabella Ella: is it not we as humans who create that distinction?
Liza Deischer: because it tends to say one is more true then the other one
arabella Ella: and what may be considered 'ugly' by one person may be 'beauty' for another
Liza Deischer: not according to some in this group
Liza Deischer: yes
Calvino Rabeni: It is a complex topic
Bruce Mowbray: I would definitely agree that "beauty" to one might be"ugly" to another.
arabella Ella: oh yes
Bruce Mowbray: that's simple aesthetics, no?
Calvino Rabeni: And yet one might ask whether the person A and B were seeing the same things
Calvino Rabeni: that's the difference
Bruce Mowbray: yes.
Liza Deischer: in PaB I mean....... but they are not here :)
Bruce Mowbray: not present, you mean, Liza?
Calvino Rabeni: we don't know whether the beauty-seer is being perceptive of some quality that the ugly-seer cannot accesss
Liza Deischer: Those are interesting questions, but need to be approached with open mind
Bruce Mowbray: good point, Cal.
Bruce Mowbray: Beauty is, to me, a prim-al Idea.
Bruce Mowbray: Similar to plato's Ideal forms, I guess.
Calvino Rabeni: As when someone sees an empty lot, another sees a weed-patch, another sees a self-balancing ecology, another sees dozens of tiny ecological zones, another sees beautiful forms in dynamic flux ... etc.
Bruce Mowbray: As such, it is eternal - timeless - and everywhere.
Liza Deischer: but then who is the I that is looking ?
Calvino Rabeni: Can you answer that Liza ? :)
Bruce Mowbray: another sees the reflection of a fingernail moon in the mud puddle in that empty lot.
arabella Ella: interesting example
Liza Deischer: no Cal, because if you start thinking about it.......
Liza Deischer: who is the witness we talked about this morning
Bruce Mowbray: is "witness" separated into parts?
Bruce Mowbray: or is "witness" one matrix of consciousness?
Calvino Rabeni: Hard to know isn't it
Bruce Mowbray: Can I pick a flower without troubling a star?
Bruce Mowbray: (or troubling a fingernail moon?)
Calvino Rabeni: Don't let that worry you :)
Bruce Mowbray: what is more important to worry about that that!?
Liza Deischer: I don't think that is what I mean with witness
Bruce Mowbray: please say more about 'witness.' Liza.
Liza Deischer: but maybe, after a long time of meditations, that will be the conclusion
Bruce Mowbray: The other night I said something to Cal that was not true.
Calvino Rabeni: ?
arabella Ella: i must go now ... goodnight all and thanks for the chat
Bruce Mowbray: I said that the fingernail moon would be getting snaller - more sliverish - in subsequent nights.
Liza Deischer: bye Ara
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Arabella :)
Bruce Mowbray: I was wrong -- it's in the waxing phrase now.
Bruce Mowbray: phase.
Calvino Rabeni: Funny, Bruce, I wondered if you would notice that :)
Calvino Rabeni: But also that you comment on it later :)
Bruce Mowbray: If I were a so-called primitive person -- I'd never have made that error.
Liza Deischer: :)
Bruce Mowbray: Show how disconnected I am.
Calvino Rabeni: I had a similar thought
Bruce Mowbray: shows.
Liza Deischer: I promissed myself to go to sleep early
Calvino Rabeni: Not that your're disconnected, but that a non-technological culture person would have a definite awareness of the phase of the moon
Liza Deischer: maybe you should read the log Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for being here today, CAl and Liza - - A lively chat, huh?
Bruce Mowbray: Oh -- I DO read the log -- That's for the tip, though.
Liza Deischer: I mean from this morning
Bruce Mowbray: thanks.
Liza Deischer: eh, last night for you :)
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- from this morning. Thanks!
--BELL--
Bruce Mowbray: got a few more minutes, Cal?
Calvino Rabeni: Certainly Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- don't mean to keep you from scribe duties or others.
Calvino Rabeni: I finished that for the month
Bruce Mowbray: But this morning I went to Plato's Academy and was stunned by the rudeness in the discussion there.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I've seen it
Bruce Mowbray: The topic was "How our fears inform us about ourselves"
Bruce Mowbray: I mostly sat back and let them have AT each other -- men against women, others against opthers....
Bruce Mowbray: And they lost track of the topic several time -Plato had to bring them back to it and to admonish them.
Bruce Mowbray: I had this 'vision' of a wheel - -
Bruce Mowbray: with persons diametrically opposed to each other on the rim of the wheel
Bruce Mowbray: riding it.
Bruce Mowbray: And I saw the possibility of moving to the center - the hub- of the wheel.
Bruce Mowbray: Finding that to be the optimum vantage point.
Bruce Mowbray: Then I had a vision of the hub expanding outward.
Bruce Mowbray: Gradually approaching the rim.
Bruce Mowbray: Including all those who were fighting with each other -- opposing each other.
Bruce Mowbray: And then we were all one -- including the fighters - who continued to fight.
Bruce Mowbray: end of story.
Calvino Rabeni: Perhaps that is what Lao Tzu was referring to in his wheel metaphor
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmm.... ?
Bruce Mowbray: please explain.
Bruce Mowbray: Tap te Ching?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Bruce Mowbray: Tao.
Bruce Mowbray: mmm.
Calvino Rabeni: maybe I can find an online quote
Bruce Mowbray: Rumi wrote a poem titled The Great Wheel.
Calvino Rabeni: I liked your visualization
Bruce Mowbray: In that poem he said, Out beyond right-thinking and wrong-thinking there is a field.
Bruce Mowbray: I will meet you there."
Calvino Rabeni: http://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/core9/phalsall/texts/taote-v3.html#11
Calvino Rabeni: the translation is a little too concrete I think
Calvino Rabeni: Right, that Rumi quote is a good one
Calvino Rabeni: That Rumi translator - Helminski - wrote a nice summary of Sufism
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you for listening while I shared my thoughts from Plato's group.
Calvino Rabeni: it's actually by coincidence, the closest book to my body at this moment
Bruce Mowbray: Ahhhh!
Bruce Mowbray: that's wonderful.
Bruce Mowbray: I feel that closness.
Bruce Mowbray: closeness.
Bruce Mowbray: I shall bid you doog day, now.
Calvino Rabeni: Your're welcome, - we can talk about it more if you like (about the state of philosophical discourse)
Bruce Mowbray: My supper time here.
Calvino Rabeni: Bon Apetit
Bruce Mowbray: We shall have many future talks, I trust.
Calvino Rabeni: Really I was shocked once by such a discussion on the topic of - irionicaly - "empathy" :)
Bruce Mowbray: See you later tonight, perhaps.
Calvino Rabeni: Hope so :)
Bruce Mowbray: amazing how these ironies happen, huh?
Calvino Rabeni: hehe
Bruce Mowbray: till later -- Be well.
Calvino Rabeni: For the log readers:
Calvino Rabeni: Beauty: http://www.amazon.com/Beauty-Invisible-Embrace-John-Odonohue/dp/0060957263/