2010.07.22 19:00 - Contemplation and "Starting at the End"

 The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

Paradise Tennant: hello bruce how are you :)
Bruce Mowbray: starting to get a bit sleepy. and U?
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: just in from a long trudge
Paradise Tennant: feeling tired to but good :)
Bruce Mowbray: Blub and I are bedazzled - - by your amazing . . . ummm. dress!
Paradise Tennant: lol
Bruce Mowbray: You wear the coolest things!
Bruce Mowbray: Have you had a rough day?
Paradise Tennant: it is a mix really the wonderful design of a friend of mine lunata lupino .. a berlin graphic artist and bits of an outfit by eshiri
Bruce Mowbray: amazing!
Paradise Tennant: no good day wrote a long exam .. only spent a few hours in the office and it is absolutely beautiful here
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- sounds good.
Bruce Mowbray: I've forgotten where "here" is for you.
Paradise Tennant: toronto
Bruce Mowbray: OH yes. I should make a list of everyone's location -- not that it really matters in SL.
Paradise Tennant: lol often do that in someones profile you can make notes :)
Paradise Tennant: then if you forget it is right there
Paradise Tennant: kind of like a sticky note for people
Bruce Mowbray: really? I didn't realize that one could do that.
Bruce Mowbray: let me check that out...
Paradise Tennant: yes
Paradise Tennant: the my notes section
Paradise Tennant: handy
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Got it. You are my very first "note."
Paradise Tennant: lol
Paradise Tennant: dog's name is blue
Paradise Tennant: toronto
Paradise Tennant: rl buddhist
Bruce Mowbray: OK -- Yes, I've seen a photo of Blue there.
Bruce Mowbray: I feel quite honored to have been made a guardian today.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: you have been adding a lot to the discussion :)
Bruce Mowbray: You've just "claimed" this session -- and I'm seeing your name of the schedule now.
Bruce Mowbray: I have a whole lot to learn!
Bruce Mowbray: on the sched.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: well
Paradise Tennant: life long process :)
Bruce Mowbray: How long have you been coming to PaB, Para?
Paradise Tennant: i find a learn forget learn ...
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Paradise Tennant: almost a year I think
Bruce Mowbray: I see.
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: between that and the music . .. really what I spend my time on here
Paradise Tennant: there are lot of very interesting very knowledgeable people in this group
Paradise Tennant: it is a learning platform for me :)
Bruce Mowbray: indeed there are.
Paradise Tennant: sigh I am tired completely missed that :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: how are you tonight :)
Bruce Mowbray: I've been in SL only four months, and this is without a doubt the most fascinating group I've been a part of.
Paradise Tennant: yes maxine pema stim ..storm frankly everyone adds so much to the moment :)
Bruce Mowbray: No problem, Paradise. Actually, I was so fascinated by your fish that I wasn't doing much else during the break.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: I've not yet met Stim .
Paradise Tennant: sl can take fashion .. to .. fanciful .. realms
Bruce Mowbray: only heard that folks "missed" him/her.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: has sp;ent his whole life in practise as I understand and of course there is the book !
Bruce Mowbray: Pema's book, yes.
Paradise Tennant: no Time Space Knowledge
Bruce Mowbray: I've spent most of this day writing to an inmate in a state prison here.
Bruce Mowbray: Oh! That's Stim's book?
Paradise Tennant: well he wrote it with Tarthank Tulka
Paradise Tennant: tarthang tulku
Paradise Tennant: my aplogies
Paradise Tennant: lol
Bruce Mowbray: Mmmmm. I shall look forward to meeting him.
Bruce Mowbray: So. . . a lot of the folks who come here identify with Buddhism.
Paradise Tennant: I have been reading it ..
Bruce Mowbray: or use Buddhist methods...
Paradise Tennant: kind of a book you need to spend your life on
Paradise Tennant: hmm
Paradise Tennant: some
Bruce Mowbray: I understand.
Bruce Mowbray: I enjoy reading a good book several times --
Bruce Mowbray: finding that each time I am a different person who is reading.
Bruce Mowbray: especially some of the "spiritual work" books.
Bruce Mowbray: as you say, learning and relearning and un-learning all the time.
Paradise Tennant: yes
Bruce Mowbray: OK please tell me something.
Paradise Tennant: every thought or action changes you
Bruce Mowbray: What if I were not here tonight?
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: could you just call it a day and go to bed...
Bruce Mowbray: or are you expected to stay here through the whole session?
Paradise Tennant: I would sit usually for the hour with my fish :)
Paradise Tennant: not everyone does
Bruce Mowbray: cool.
Paradise Tennant: people sometimes come and go as their schedule allows
Bruce Mowbray: How's Blue tonight?
Paradise Tennant: he is creaky
Paradise Tennant: must have had a hard run at the beach this afternoon
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm. creaky.
Bruce Mowbray: Blue's an older dog?
Paradise Tennant: 14
Paradise Tennant: 13
Bruce Mowbray: My dog Bear is "only" 10.
Paradise Tennant: smies
Bruce Mowbray: he still bounds through the soybean field like a deer, though.
Paradise Tennant: blue is have a crump liver treat :) tail is all awag
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: Good evening, Calvino.
Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening mate :)
Bruce Mowbray: How's life on the Left Coast?
Calvino Rabeni: Bear's a handsome one
Bruce Mowbray is wondering how Cal knows that.
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm.. maybe that video of the tree felling?
Paradise Tennant: has never met a dog that was not visually appealing :)
Calvino Rabeni: Well, ... but I admit, it is rare
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh.. Me neither, come to think of it.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: so what shall be the discourse tonight :)
Paradise Tennant: the debate ?
Calvino Rabeni: Debate?
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: well :) what shall explore
Paradise Tennant: *we
Calvino Rabeni: I was considering (a) Contemplation, and (b) contemplating "Starting at the End"

Note:  That was the topic of the theme session earlier today at 2010.07.22_13:00.

Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: contemplation as upaya. . . ?
Bruce Mowbray: starting at the end. . . as upaya?
Bruce Mowbray: "slillful means".
Paradise Tennant: smiles works with people :) with situations .. with your self or no self
Paradise Tennant: actually a great topic
Bruce Mowbray: I first encountered the concept of contemplation through Thos. Merton's book, New Seeds of Contemplation.
Bruce Mowbray: I did not realize that what I'd already been doing through Eastern mysticism was "contemplative."
Paradise Tennant: listens
Bruce Mowbray: that's pretty much was contemplation is, for me: listening.
Bruce Mowbray: what.
Calvino Rabeni: I hadn't heard the term, so I googled http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upaya
Calvino Rabeni: but that seems a fair general description of one idea about contemplation
Bruce Mowbray: "skill in means" -- a good article; will bookmark it.
Calvino Rabeni: I think there are a lot of principles involved in skillful means
Calvino Rabeni: it is a subtle art
Bruce Mowbray: please say more, Cal.
Calvino Rabeni: By principle, I mean something generally true, in a practical sense
Calvino Rabeni: maybe that is too obvious to need remarking
Bruce Mowbray: good to be clear about terms, though.
Calvino Rabeni: occasionally being reminded of such can help increase the skill
Calvino Rabeni: well, terms are not a high priority as a principle
Calvino Rabeni: but they help a little if they lead to better focus
Calvino Rabeni: but as we know they can also lead in the other direction
Bruce Mowbray: what does "skillful means" direct you toward?
Paradise Tennant: perception is :) the ability to communicate in a way others understand .. or are ready for .. and maybe to think internally .. in a manner that progresses
Calvino Rabeni: good stuff
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: I'll get back to that in a minute - gotta distraction - go ahead :)
Bruce Mowbray: I'm all for good stuff.
Paradise Tennant: nods me too
Bruce Mowbray: np.
Bruce Mowbray: I will distract myself. . . empathetically with youse.
Bruce Mowbray: Blub is distracted by Para's fish.
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: well .. there is so much wearable art here . that is one of my distractions :)
Bruce Mowbray: Upaya is the name of the Zen Center in New Mexico -- that oan Halifax is the Roshi of.
Bruce Mowbray: Joan.
Bruce Mowbray: they have excellent podcasts.
Bruce Mowbray: a vast variety of subjects -- all related to "skillful means."
Calvino Rabeni: There is a kind of dialectic involved - but it doesn't follow conventional western logics
Bruce Mowbray: an internal dialectic?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, basically, a contemplative approach can open up any subject
Bruce Mowbray: interior dialectic.
Bruce Mowbray: Did we open up the subject of starting at the end?
Calvino Rabeni: I wasn't joking the other day when I said, it could be as legitimate to contemplate an ice cream cone as a zen koan
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Good evening, Eos.
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Paradise Tennant: hiya eos gtsy :)
Calvino Rabeni: The question of "starting at the end" is opened, if we declare it to be ...
Eos Amaterasu: hi para cal bruce
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Eos
Eos Amaterasu: fish
Paradise Tennant: smiles it is a kind of aspiration practise
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eos Amaterasu: fish in air?
Calvino Rabeni: So before you came, it was proposed to contemplate "starting at the end" and also "contemplation"
Calvino Rabeni: and we did a little bit of that so far
Bruce Mowbray: contemplating air-borne fish...
Bruce Mowbray: of which there are many here tonight.
Calvino Rabeni: One of the "too obvious to mention but important" principles, is that when you are contemplating subject Q, you are also gaining experience in contemplation, and thus, contemplating contemplation
Paradise Tennant: smiles I have water for them but it is a little .. hmmm splashy :)
Eos Amaterasu: "the fish of your subconscious gossip... "
Paradise Tennant: that appropriately go round in circles
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: contemplating contemplation.
Calvino Rabeni: Paradise has a whole school - very nice
Eos Amaterasu: what else would be contemplating it?
Calvino Rabeni: So a person who is contemplating "starting at the end" is also contemplating "contemplation" at the same time
Bruce Mowbray: Contemplation seems to have both an active and a passive mode.
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed
Calvino Rabeni: It might have multiple unknown modes occurring at once
Eos Amaterasu: in a way, starting at the end means forgetting about contemplating it
Eos Amaterasu: just do it
Paradise Tennant: is there not an element of visualization too
Paradise Tennant: perceiving someone as already enlightened say
Calvino Rabeni: Well, if it interferes with the process, that might or might not be helpful
Paradise Tennant: and acting on that perception
Eos Amaterasu: I don't think you visualize the end
Calvino Rabeni: as one would have to check it out
Calvino Rabeni: which knowing is also contemplative
Calvino Rabeni: One starting point is - contemplation attempts to have an experience of the true nature of some question
Calvino Rabeni: it is a way of focusing the question
Calvino Rabeni: so if "starting at the end" were true, what would it be like to have a direct experience of it?
Calvino Rabeni: and of course, that could result in a visuialization
Calvino Rabeni: which would probably be false in some way
Calvino Rabeni: but, it could move the contemplation in a dialectic way
Eos Amaterasu: seems like you have to go throuigh a lot of thickets of dialogue and discussion to get to the end
Calvino Rabeni: by unfolding some new insight
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe, maybe not
Eos Amaterasu: that's not starting at the end :-)
Calvino Rabeni: if the thicket is there, then seeing it for what it is may be immediate
Paradise Tennant: well what is the end :)
Calvino Rabeni: if it isn't, then you have a thicket to negotiate
Eos Amaterasu: beautiful friend...
Eos Amaterasu: this is the end...
Calvino Rabeni: and that's where the skillful means comes in
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: [we were discussing 'skillful means' before you arrived, Eos]
Bruce Mowbray: Upaya.
Calvino Rabeni: Upaya as a provisional definition of contemplation
Eos Amaterasu: hmm
Bruce Mowbray: thicket-ness?
Calvino Rabeni: So, what is "starting at the end"
Eos Amaterasu: give up all fruition
Eos Amaterasu: then you are there
Calvino Rabeni: what is it like to do that, right now?
Bruce Mowbray: T.S. Eliot: "arriving at the starting place and knowing it for the first time." (?)
Calvino Rabeni: does it mean, the thicket is also "the end" and complete?
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Eos Amaterasu: the thicket has never left the end
Eos Amaterasu: but moment by moment
Paradise Tennant: so sitting here in my pyamas .. eating strawberries .. listening to the dog .. whine for more crump's liver bits .. but also knowing I am maybe only a mili second from really geting it .. if somehow .. i open to it .. :) that is the end .. or maybe the begining :)
Eos Amaterasu: thickets come up
Eos Amaterasu: micro-moments are fine
Calvino Rabeni: Does the end imply a new beginning? What happens?
Bruce Mowbray: no separation(s) between "start" and "end."
Eos Amaterasu: there's a traditional ditty about logic of ground necessitating path leading to fruition
Calvino Rabeni: That sounds good ... is it a direct experience in some way?
Eos Amaterasu: but ultimately the path is realizing the ground as the fruition
Bruce Mowbray: say more, Eos, please.
Eos Amaterasu: that is starting at the end
Calvino Rabeni: that is, is it obviously "true" or a hypothesis?
Eos Amaterasu: which means the thicket could be the ground
Eos Amaterasu: it's a possible way of being :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Or, as Cal said before, the ice cream cone could be the fruition.
Eos Amaterasu: yum
Bruce Mowbray: There it is!
Eos Amaterasu: that's the nice thing about the phenomenal world :-)
Bruce Mowbray: Yum. That's it.
Bruce Mowbray: Ooops... now it's gone. pfffttt!.
Eos Amaterasu: fickle...
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: none
Calvino Rabeni: All these ideas about a path ... of starting.... going ... arriving ... what is that?
Eos Amaterasu hears the hoot owl, an aritifice reminding him of being
Eos Amaterasu: path? upaya
Eos Amaterasu: no path: wisdom
Bruce Mowbray hears owl in SL and owl in his front yard in RL.
Eos Amaterasu: union of the two: you
Eos Amaterasu: the world rolls up your path in front of you...
Calvino Rabeni: That path... is there a change over time, due to having done "practice"?
Calvino Rabeni: Like the zen story of the shogun and the calligrapher, you know it?
Bruce Mowbray: nope.
Eos Amaterasu listens
Paradise Tennant: everything is practice :)
Eos Amaterasu: yes, Paradise: it needs not reason
Calvino Rabeni: everything is practice in some way
Bruce Mowbray also listens.
Calvino Rabeni: but it seems everything could be different qualities of practice
Calvino Rabeni: The story ...

The shogun in Japan commissioned a calligraphy - maybe an Enso circle, from a famous and regarded artist, a true Zen master supposedly
He waited a long time, and sent word in inquiry, and heard "almost done"
He got more impatient...
One day he went to the artist and said - I've been waiting a long time, where's my painting?
The calligrapher grabbed his brush, dipped it into the ink, moved over the rice paper in a quick gesture ...
and there! a masterpiece!
The shogun saw it and was quite impressed.
But he was still somewhat annoyed - "Why did you wait so long? Why did I have to come here, and it's not yet ready?"
In answer, the calligrapher opened a nearby cabinet. Out fell a huge stack of "enso" paintings and fluttered to the floor.

Paradise Tennant: what are enso s
Eos Amaterasu: circle
Calvino Rabeni: Zen brush circles, the quality of which is said to express the full consciousness of the master
Bruce Mowbray: "perfect" circles.
Eos Amaterasu: kannonji has t-shirts with them
Calvino Rabeni: they take a moment to draw, and represent a lifetime of practice
Bruce Mowbray: I made one of my own.
Eos Amaterasu: that's how each moment is
Bruce Mowbray: It took a lifetime of practice, of course.
Paradise Tennant: smiles so a life time of practice to get a moment right :)
Eos Amaterasu: a lifetime of moments right
Eos Amaterasu: each enso is perfect
Calvino Rabeni: One thing I understood about this story is it reflects the different idea of the nature of enlightenment in Soto and Rinzai Zen schools, or something like - gradual vs sudden enlightenment
Eos Amaterasu: yeah, an old joke between them
Calvino Rabeni: Right
Eos Amaterasu: it doesn't matter
Eos Amaterasu: it's the current nowness that does
Bruce Mowbray: in keeping with our earlier talk of Upaya, contemplation, and starting at the end...
Eos Amaterasu: theere was actually no way to get here anyway
Bruce Mowbray: it's not "perfect enso" as fruition that we're after...
Bruce Mowbray: but the moment of movement... of being in that moment...
Bruce Mowbray: of being present with the event.

The act of an artist producing a product  (a drawing), is presented by this story as a kind of koan.  Where did the masterpiece come from?  It came in the moment, as an expression of the full Being of the master in just that moment, with no sense of past, future, or goal  - but it had something to do with the practice, the thousands of previous drawings by that Master... so although practice doesn't create enlighenment directly, or constitute it, but, the discipline prepares for its suddenly coming into the moment...

Calvino Rabeni: There's a possible mistake to tell people who want to be on a spiritual path, something that implies, they can dispense with practice
Calvino Rabeni: but the contemplation process is, be alert to the sudden insight, but don't otherwise lose focus on the practice
Eos Amaterasu: even enjoying it
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, enjoyment is a very good sign I think
Eos Amaterasu: the best answer is Suzuki Roshi's: you don't practice to attain enlightenment; but because you are already enlightened, you practice

Calvino Rabeni: That is a kind assumption
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe a hypothetical
Calvino Rabeni: if you define yourself as already enlightened and allow to believe it, it may result in an insight that wouldn't have happened by carrying the assumption of ignorance
Bruce Mowbray: I've always associated "happiness" with contemplation -- I don't mean "pleasure," of course. but happiness, joy.
Paradise Tennant: the dividing line between buddhist schools too
Eos Amaterasu: joy is often associated with discipline :-)
--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: I think that comes part of questioning assumptions
Eos Amaterasu: "already enlightened" is a heavy burden to live up to: I don't think starting at the end requires that
Eos Amaterasu: it is about the assuming that Calvino mentioned
Calvino Rabeni: I agree, if it seems a burden, it is a hindrance
Eos Amaterasu: that's what Pema calls the "if koan"
Eos Amaterasu: what if we dropped saying "if"?
Eos Amaterasu: (that's my version - don't remember the exact words...)
Calvino Rabeni: If we didn't have if....
Calvino Rabeni: One way is to allow many more things to be true all at once
Paradise Tennant: yes
Eos Amaterasu: no ifs, ands,or buts
Calvino Rabeni: and I don't think that unrealistic
Eos Amaterasu: see what happens
Paradise Tennant: well different versions of now
Calvino Rabeni: different possibilties
Paradise Tennant: viewing it as more plastic
Eos Amaterasu: things seem to be more flexible than we initially think
Calvino Rabeni: oh yes
Calvino Rabeni: the mind, that is
Calvino Rabeni: they might be true together, or in different possible worlds
Eos Amaterasu: plastic fantastic...
Calvino Rabeni: But, it doesn't mean, arbitrary fantasy possibility
Eos Amaterasu: no, it requires true dialog, in a way
Calvino Rabeni: the forms and limitations of the world carry their own lessons
Eos Amaterasu: karma
Paradise Tennant: nods
Calvino Rabeni: Pema wrote an article years ago on "limits" - it was rather abstract I felt, but interesting to consider
Eos Amaterasu: re starting at the end
Eos Amaterasu: I think one of the best paths, paradoxically
Eos Amaterasu: is starting at the beginning
Eos Amaterasu: the true beginng
Eos Amaterasu: where are we coming from?
Calvino Rabeni: I consider that worth entertaining
Calvino Rabeni: Indeed Eos
Paradise Tennant: what is the true beginnning?
Eos Amaterasu: your original face before your mother was born
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Calvino Rabeni: The paradox is to "start from here"
Eos Amaterasu: true beginning is not pre- conception
Eos Amaterasu: conception in that sense is true beginning
Eos Amaterasu: not "next thing", but "first thing"
Calvino Rabeni: One thing I believe, is in the practice of contemplation, it isn't useful to stubbornly throw oneself at a question ...
Calvino Rabeni: As a matter of skillful means, the issue is - whether the contemplation is working or not
Eos Amaterasu: ?
Bruce Mowbray: Much to be with in this. Being "first thought." But am now to bed.
Calvino Rabeni: I claimed the log, by para's request
Eos Amaterasu: in a sense that's also starting at the end
Bruce Mowbray: Thank you, Para, Cal, Eos.
Eos Amaterasu: Bye Bruce
Paradise Tennant: good nite bruce :)
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for being here Bruce
Paradise Tennant: thank you
Bruce Mowbray: G'night everyone. Be well.
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Paradise Tennant: namaste
Eos Amaterasu: to do the contemplation with no ulterior motives, soto speak
Eos Amaterasu: rinzai speak :-)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I agree, that is very important Eos
Calvino Rabeni: for instance, an ulterior motive might be, to avoid practice
Calvino Rabeni: get to the answer, the end, in a hurry so to speak
Eos Amaterasu: yeah, peak ahead :-)
Calvino Rabeni: resolve some feeling of incompleteness, or impatience
Calvino Rabeni: grasp an answer, etc.
Eos Amaterasu: yeah, there's always this nagging anxiety
Paradise Tennant: like reading the last page of a mystery first
Calvino Rabeni: And yet, how can one stay "on purpose"
Calvino Rabeni: without those conventional motivations?
Eos Amaterasu feels like in an R Crumb cartoon

Editor's note:  That is an evocative comment... the controversial American underground cartoonist R Crumb drew comics that reflected the intensity of the culture at a time when angst and nihilism were swirling together with the newly-popular imports of Eastern religious ideas.  More recently he turned his gaze to Christianity and did a complete illustration of the Book of Genesis (video interviews).

--BELL--

Appreciating  R Crumb cartoons as an appearance of Being... they suggest the underlying sense of anxiety that people can bring to the things they do, sometimes including the idea of a spiritual path, when it carries a sense of urgency or a promise of future "salvation".  An intense, and self-parodying image of this by R Crumb is here.

Calvino Rabeni: I like that image, Eos
Calvino Rabeni: I felt it during the break
Eos Amaterasu: maybe if it's the end it needs no purpose
Calvino Rabeni: It doesn't.  But still, ....
Eos Amaterasu: Well,must also depart to bed: thank you Calvino and Paradise....
Calvino Rabeni: some other purpose may distract
Paradise Tennant: smiles thanks eos .. nice to see you :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Eos :)
Paradise Tennant: do you find yourself changing cal through all this .. focused thought ?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but how can one know - if things are different, how much that was part of it
Calvino Rabeni: But I do assume the practice has been effective
Calvino Rabeni: How does anyone know if their practice is worthwhile?
Calvino Rabeni: Lots of ways I suppose
Paradise Tennant: sure
Paradise Tennant: often find
Paradise Tennant: there is a feeling of joy
Paradise Tennant: of rightness
Paradise Tennant: to some moments
Paradise Tennant: smiles well
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, I find the same, and see it as a sign
Paradise Tennant: I should be to bed or tomorrow morning will feel wrong :)
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: Paradise
Paradise Tennant: thanks kindly cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: Sleep / dream well :)
Paradise Tennant: really appreciate you taking the log .. what I thought was my email address just bounced back on my blackberry :)
Paradise Tennant: and you sleep well .. dream of the end the beginning and a happy middle :)
Calvino Rabeni: Ah, sure glad to do it
Calvino Rabeni: heheh