2010.07.19 01:00 - Many good things

The Guardian for this meeting was Cosmicflower Ushimawa. The comments are by Cosmicflower Ushimawa.

First we shared some week-end news;

Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi, and sorry coming late
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thanks Cal calling
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: just remembered its monday
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ...soryy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ry
Calvino Rabeni: <3 Cosmic
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3<3<3
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: well, I have time
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: felt so much as week-end
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: have it happened to You ever
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: that
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: monday feels week-end
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like continued
Calvino Rabeni: Surely doesn't feel like monday, true
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: You to have same feel?
Calvino Rabeni: yes, well, this is sunday night to me
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I am still on sunday
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)))
Calvino Rabeni: Had a good week end?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes, I drow a pic about lady keeping snake
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like in Tai Chi
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there can form a ball
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to heart area
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I drawed a lady
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: who keeps snake the same way like kept that "ball"
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I need to colour it
--BELL--
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: still
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: on week-end I was also much missing kids
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they are coming home today
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and boys are been missing too
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: felt their feel
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: today its a day of joy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: they come back
Calvino Rabeni: That is sweet
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it is
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: how was Your week-end?
Calvino Rabeni: Thanks for the energy ball :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: when I have finished the picture, will send it to see ;)
Calvino Rabeni: :))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and then got another view to draw
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: same snake
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but mouth open
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and there comes out pink ball ;D

About Mind...

Calvino Rabeni: hmmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure how to start ...
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Calvino Rabeni: but it seems, "mind" is not inside each person, but something we are all inside
Calvino Rabeni: maybe taiji gives more of a feel for it
Calvino Rabeni: whenever we are around a group of friends, the energy of it (or what you call it? ) is all around
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes , its able to feel
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all of friends
Calvino Rabeni: not separate :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its not much time I saw a dream
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: where was a hall
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like gym hall
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and there were people in it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: one strange thing happened
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: suddenly some of those people on hall
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: was standing on circle
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: cheek by cheek
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like group mind
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: That sounds exciting
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: it was interesting feel
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: The idea of the group mind is sometimes disturbing to people
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: why is that so?
Calvino Rabeni: maybe it interferes with their idea of freedom, or how liberation may work
Calvino Rabeni: or it seems like "too much work" ?
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not really sure
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm or maby its about want to be separate?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but why?
Calvino Rabeni: Independence....
Calvino Rabeni: Making one's own decisions
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby
Calvino Rabeni: to be the author of one's own life?
Calvino Rabeni: That group mind could bring much knowledge, as well as some responsibilities and limitations
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby need of that
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and maby also something new
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: for me the feel was new
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: in that dream
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;)
Calvino Rabeni: and many "disturbing" influences :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but good also
Calvino Rabeni: I think, often good
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Calvino Rabeni: (hmm, big SL chat lag here)
Calvino Rabeni: (some line I wrote just disappeared)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: oh
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: okey
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: About that group mind bringing new fresh energy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ahh
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Calvino Rabeni: but also, sometimes, it is a "drag" on oneself
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: all bring something
Calvino Rabeni: have you experienced that
Calvino Rabeni: after a while, to lose one's "edge"
--BELL--
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: So for example, in a discussion, someone was "edgy"
Calvino Rabeni: meaning, a little sharp, a little different, with some energy
Calvino Rabeni: something unexpected
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Calvino Rabeni: or like bringing creative energy
Calvino Rabeni: seeing things in a different way
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: now I see
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Calvino Rabeni: and then, over time, there are some "habits" that take hold
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I have experienced some like that
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: like looked by someones eyes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: through some ones eyes
Calvino Rabeni: Many people felt a creative stimulation when "new" to PlayAsBeing, with lots of energy
Calvino Rabeni: and it could happen in other groups too
Calvino Rabeni: or a relationship, like meeting someone and falling in love
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3
Calvino Rabeni: and then over time it settles down

About Tarots***
Calvino Rabeni: I was thinking about the symbols of the Tarot
Calvino Rabeni: which is a kind of "story" of developing wisdom
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I do not know about symbols much
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Can You tell me more about it?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: developing, thats something I like ;))
Calvino Rabeni: Yes...
Calvino Rabeni: So it starts with a card called the Fool
Calvino Rabeni: which is not at all a bad thing
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I love fool too
Calvino Rabeni: because the Fool is innocent, and full of possibility
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: with lots of light energy
Calvino Rabeni: and NOT bound by history or attachments
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Darren Dear ;))
Darren Islar: hi Cal, Csomic :)
Calvino Rabeni: <3 Darren
Darren Islar: Cosmic, I mean
Calvino Rabeni: And Hokon :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3 Hokon
Darren Islar: tarot?
Darren Islar: tarot?
Darren Islar: sorry, thought I had chatlag but I wasn't at the bottom of the window
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, the topic was group mind, and the symbolism of the tarot, possibly as a way to understand the wisdom journey
Darren Islar: Hokon crashed from the looks of it
Hokon Cazalet: yup
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Darren Islar: the Fool :)
Calvino Rabeni: Well these meetings become a continuum for me at times
Calvino Rabeni: RIght, the journey starts with the Fool card
Calvino Rabeni: someone is having a "new journey" and is full of possibilities, and free of the past
Calvino Rabeni: like falling in love, perhaps, when not actually knowing the Lover
Calvino Rabeni: and seeing the best in them
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, yes
Calvino Rabeni: not so many entanglements and triggers
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: its good feel
Calvino Rabeni: we have hormones to make it easier :)
Darren Islar: I'm trying to find a pciture of the Hermit and the Fool I once took
Darren Islar: but it takes a while I'm afraid
Darren Islar: don't know where I left it :)
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: The main sequence of that Tarot represents a journey of development
Calvino Rabeni: Next comes the Magician, I think
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes
Calvino Rabeni: learning to do things, to start to make those infinite possibilities into something real
Calvino Rabeni: by contacting heaven and earth
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: yes and with own inner feel
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or by own intuition
Calvino Rabeni: ah,yes
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: trusting
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: one-Self
Calvino Rabeni: hmmm, how are you today, Darren?
Darren Islar: tired, but I slept well
Calvino Rabeni: We all see one another pretty often
Darren Islar: but asked too much of myself lately
Darren Islar: which is done quite easily I'm afraid
Calvino Rabeni: often enough to remember, maybe even have some continuum between the sessions
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: **
Calvino Rabeni: All those pictures in the Tarot of different life situations - I like that it gives them all some value
Hokon Cazalet: =)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ;))
Calvino Rabeni: At one time in my life I might have thought it somehow wrong to be the Hermit, for example
Hokon Cazalet: hehe
Darren Islar: :))
Calvino Rabeni: What gives the ability to trust one self?
Darren Islar: maybe the third card answers that one: the high priestess
Calvino Rabeni: Because, I know, you have ability to do that
Calvino Rabeni: :) Darren
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thanks Darren :)
Darren Islar: yw
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: The High Priestess has power of innerness, darkness, mystery?
Calvino Rabeni: Otherwise the Magician would run out of tricks
Darren Islar: the first ten tarot-cards are more like potentials
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Darren Islar: in this case it is the high priestess, someone outside yourself, that you need to guide you
Darren Islar: the veil is still closed
Darren Islar: it is all there, but hidden
Calvino Rabeni: Unless you identify with the high priestess as an inner figure
Darren Islar: sure
Calvino Rabeni: representing seeking the implicit - within one self
Calvino Rabeni: That is to trust oneself more than the magician
Darren Islar: but it is all still 'rough' not incarnated yet
Calvino Rabeni: even if not knowing / not active / not shown
Calvino Rabeni: are there later stages showing the incarnated process?
Darren Islar: but at the same time very close to the 'real' thing
Darren Islar: (whatever that is :))
Calvino Rabeni: I mentioned the Tarot today, after asking what it is that happens when an individual starts to see themself part of a new group "mind"
Calvino Rabeni: and what might happen to their energy
Calvino Rabeni: at first energized
Calvino Rabeni: maybe later losing some edge?
Calvino Rabeni: It is a kind of incarnation
Darren Islar: interesting to look that way about it
Darren Islar: and there are a lot of 'oldies' that aren't in the group anymore
Darren Islar: or don't show up that much anymore
Hokon Cazalet: hey i gotta get to bed, have a fun night/day all =)
Darren Islar: but the Tarot may show us what a group needs, how it develops
Calvino Rabeni: Good night, Hokon :)
Darren Islar: bye Hokon
Hokon Cazalet: Weeee! ^.^
Calvino Rabeni: That's interesting Darren, to see it from the group's viewoint
Calvino Rabeni: *viewpoint
Calvino Rabeni: There are newies and oldies
Calvino Rabeni: and inbetween-ies such as ourselves
Darren Islar: and the ones that asks the questions :)
Darren Islar: the ones 'in between'
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe ?
--BELL--

Cos being present and out at the same time**
Darren Islar: the pubers
Darren Islar: I'm afraid we have talked Cosmic into sleep
Calvino Rabeni: No, it isn't our doing
Calvino Rabeni: RL is compelling her attention
Darren Islar: I know :)
Calvino Rabeni: so from our point of view, she is dreaming
Darren Islar: 'inactive'
Calvino Rabeni: having an out-of-body experience
Darren Islar: :)
Darren Islar: brb
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: sorry, my kids came home
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: been "away" some mins
Calvino Rabeni: Now a lively house once more :)
Calvino Rabeni:

Would you like to end the session then, Cos?
 

Noup Cal, Being still there*****

About the Development;

Calvino Rabeni: OK, well I am thinking, that process of development - gradually brings the ability to function with some very paradoxical requirements
Darren Islar: say more please
Calvino Rabeni: for example, to fully credit one's own subjectivity, and at the same time, see it as functioning within larger "minds" such as group pr culture
Calvino Rabeni: *or culture
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: thus, a subjectivity that is not a separation
Darren Islar: yes
Darren Islar: interesting paradox
Darren Islar: well Adoro said something interresting about that yesterday
Darren Islar: like a group can maybe get objectivity
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: okey, it seems I have to go
Darren Islar: but to me that is defining what we think is 'normal' at the moment
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: here is "too much" now
Darren Islar: ok Cosmic
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Darren Islar: nice to have seen you again :))
Calvino Rabeni: <333 Cosmic :))
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I will go now
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: See You soon Dear Ones <3<3<3

and she comes back soon***
Calvino Rabeni: Goodbye Dear :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye
Darren Islar: bye Cosmic :)
Calvino Rabeni: The seat is warm
Darren Islar: yesssss
Calvino Rabeni: did adoro say more about that ?
Darren Islar: no, not really
Darren Islar: to much people talking at the same time :)
Darren Islar: democracy came after that
Darren Islar: which I guess is the ultimate description of what we think is 'normal'
Calvino Rabeni: In a way, democracy was founded on contemplative dialogue
Calvino Rabeni: as practiced in greece, perhaps
Darren Islar: now it is 50% + 1
Darren Islar: but 'normal' is an 'objectivity
Darren Islar: you can work with during the day
Darren Islar: but it is no real objectivity
Calvino Rabeni: I can't really see it - as modern life has no majorities any more
Darren Islar: true, but we still have a lot of unspoken rules
Calvino Rabeni: we certainly do
Darren Islar: those are based on what we think is 'normal'
Calvino Rabeni: and somehow they take hold, even if they represent minority positions
Darren Islar: a lot of our behaviours, we are not even aware of them anymore
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Calvino Rabeni: the majority of them, if they could be separated and counted (which they can't)
Calvino Rabeni: And 'normal' is just what everyone seems to be doing at the time
Darren Islar: no, it is more what we have become used to
Calvino Rabeni: less than a kind of objectified definition of humans
Darren Islar: like white people act differently in certain circomstances that black do
Darren Islar: on a very subtle level
Calvino Rabeni: culture
Darren Islar: yes
Darren Islar: but often misunterpreted by others
Darren Islar: even government and police
Darren Islar: so without even being aware of it, segregation happens
Darren Islar: to become aware of it gives a whole new dimension
Calvino Rabeni: there are lots of reasons people live where they do
Calvino Rabeni: economics, or wanting to be near similar people, or liking the same conditions
Calvino Rabeni: even in the absence of any oppressive attitudes, people would cluster into communities of similar
Darren Islar: but a lot of those reasons, people are unaware of
Darren Islar: yes

--BELL--is ringing with Rules****
Darren Islar: I guess that is not a bad thing, but loosing perspective on that can be bad
Darren Islar: PaB also have a lot of unspoken rules
Darren Islar: that's okay, except when everybody keeps them unspoken
Darren Islar: and tell people at the same time you are an open, transparant group
Calvino Rabeni: It seems to be the case, that subjective knowledge is mostly un-self-reflective
Calvino Rabeni: so there's not much perspective on one's own experience
Calvino Rabeni: even though embedded in it thoroughly
Darren Islar: a lot of it is, yes, I surely think so
Darren Islar: 'normal' behaviour is making us doze of
Calvino Rabeni: For example, there is a big difference between
Calvino Rabeni: A - what do I think Subjective means, and
Calvino Rabeni: B- What does Subjective mean TO ME
Darren Islar: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Orm substitute X for subjective
Darren Islar: :)
Darren Islar: that is a nice substitute :)
Calvino Rabeni: As often the answer to (A) will be - second hand ideas - like, what one thinks others think about X
Darren Islar: yes
Darren Islar: or away from persons, what about being friendly
Calvino Rabeni: I'm trying to think about what Subjective means to me
Darren Islar: sorry :)
Calvino Rabeni: What's the question about friendly?
Darren Islar: friendliness, politeness seems to be very important
Calvino Rabeni: We get used to the choppy nature of text chat, with unclear relationships betwen statements
Darren Islar: which is a good thing in itself
Darren Islar: that too
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure where you're going with this yet...
Darren Islar: but sometimes saying harsh things can be the right thing to do
Darren Islar: we cover a lot up under friendliness
Darren Islar: we keep smeiling to each other
Darren Islar: smiling
Darren Islar: which makes it hard to have 'real' discussions
Calvino Rabeni: Do you wish to be more outspoken at times?
Calvino Rabeni: OR perhaps to get more honest feedback?
Calvino Rabeni: And would it be about persons, or about objects?

Being friendly and respect one and another***
Darren Islar: well it is hard to put your finger on it, because respect is important
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Darren Islar: ah........ talking about respect
Darren Islar: I think respect is not always the same as being friendly
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Darren Islar: but i think it is an unspoken rule that those are more or less equivilants
Darren Islar: I think honest is a better word, then outspoken
Darren Islar: but in a respectful way
--BELL--
Darren Islar: I need to say it is something I try working on
Darren Islar: somehow we didn't learn to do that in a proper way
Calvino Rabeni: thanks for remarking on that
Darren Islar: or is misunderstood by te other person, feeling it is meant as a personal thing
Calvino Rabeni: what is the "work" and how?
Darren Islar: well, I'm not sure
Darren Islar: but sometimes I can put things forward, and then I find out people took it personal
Darren Islar: which wasn't my meaning
Darren Islar: but, being part of this society
Darren Islar: I do much the same when it is the other way around
Calvino Rabeni: in those scenarios, what was your intended meaning?
Darren Islar: so I haven't found a good way yet
Calvino Rabeni: Or theirs?
Darren Islar: to point out something
Calvino Rabeni: any kind of something?
Darren Islar: for an example
Darren Islar: we had a new one here, who was talking and talking
Calvino Rabeni: I love examples by the way :)
Darren Islar: and we told him about the bell and its purpose
Darren Islar: but he claimed he didn't hear it
Darren Islar: so I said that you could also see it by looking at the fountain
Darren Islar: but he didn't see that because he was watching his keyboard
Darren Islar: and so on and so on
Darren Islar: oh, he started off with the idea that the bell meant: not talking by voice
Darren Islar: :)
Darren Islar: at the end I said it wasn't that he didn't notice, it was about him having so many thoughts and want to put them out all at once
Darren Islar: but the remark was there before I 'knew' it
Darren Islar: so it was polished yet :)
Darren Islar: I mean, it wasn't
Darren Islar: And Liza once confronted Arch
Darren Islar: but looking back I think that was a good thing to do
Darren Islar: but I also feel very insecure in those kind of situations
Darren Islar: what I wanted to do was making the 'talker' become aware of what he was doing
Darren Islar: and that it is hard to listen if your mind is so filled
Darren Islar: just to make him stop for a while and make him wonder about himself
Darren Islar: but if you take it personal
Darren Islar: you might think I attack your whole personality
Darren Islar: and in this society we have an unspoken rule to take those kind of things personal
Darren Islar: women more then men
Calvino Rabeni: Yes that could be
--BELL--
Darren Islar: so there is a tendency to avoid to ay those things to each other
Darren Islar: say
Calvino Rabeni: It creats a dilemma of it being difficult to get accurate feedback from people
Darren Islar: yes
Darren Islar: hi Crusty
Crusty Goldshark: hi guys
Calvino Rabeni: Somehow I seem to remember, when first meeting Crusty, that I had eaten a deep-fried shark that day
Crusty Goldshark: :)
Darren Islar: :)
Darren Islar: it is getting busy
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, and just about my bedtime
Darren Islar: if you stay long enough you have another groupmeeting
Darren Islar: well, I need to go too soon
Susan Aloix: hey :)
Darren Islar: hey Susan :)
Susan Aloix: Hi Darren :)
Calvino Rabeni: I don't see a solution to that feeedback issue, unless people learn and practice different skills
Darren Islar: me too
Crusty Goldshark: hi Susan
Susan Aloix: Hi Crusty :)
Darren Islar: it is only possible if people feel some real trust in each other
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, but trust can be built on skill, in a virtuous cycle
Susan Aloix: sorry for coming in so late....what is the topic? :)
Susan Aloix: i like that thought Cal
Calvino Rabeni: that is, skillful communication can lead to trust and vice versa
Darren Islar: yes
Susan Aloix: it can at least create the conditions for trust
Calvino Rabeni: we were talking about the difficulties of ... how would you state it Darren?
Darren Islar: but that means as group you need to work on it consciously
Calvino Rabeni: Barriers to accurate communication based on various factors
Darren Islar: ah....:)
Calvino Rabeni: I agree, to work on it consciously as a group maybe the way to shift the norms
Calvino Rabeni: otherwise they are pretty stable
Susan Aloix: ahh yes....:) was it Moon who said *to be understood is a rare privledge*?
Darren Islar: I don't know, but he might be right :)
Calvino Rabeni: If it happens, it means there was a lot of work done one both sides, to make it possible
Darren Islar: stable but on an unconscious level
Darren Islar: yes
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, those go together
Darren Islar: we started of with unspoken rules in communication in society and in a group
Calvino Rabeni: that is why people resist being conscious - or being prompted to be aware of things - because it destabilizes
--BELL--
Darren Islar: yes, there is a kind of fear, agreed
Calvino Rabeni: It's a primary way "the mind" works is, not to pay attention unless something is "broken"
Susan Aloix: yeah...rules usually get informally set up in various ways.......
Darren Islar: an understandble fear btw
Susan Aloix: i find it interesting the whole nature of norms in a group
Calvino Rabeni: surely :)
Darren Islar: it is
Calvino Rabeni: They are often brokered through some individual(s)
Calvino Rabeni: So in some cases the norm does not reflect majority thinking
Darren Islar: hey Cosmic :)
Darren Islar: majority, but not on an individual level
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi ;)
Calvino Rabeni: and you could interview lots of people, and the majority woudl not agree with the norm if it were up to them
Calvino Rabeni: WB Cosmic :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: thanks ;)
Susan Aloix: hello cosmic flower :)
Darren Islar: I know :)
Calvino Rabeni: So some individuals get "the job" to hold the norms
Darren Islar: that is pretty strange, don't you think
Calvino Rabeni: and others get "the job" to subvert the norms
Susan Aloix: chuckles indeed cal
Calvino Rabeni: Not too strange - because it allows the others to relax and be more flexible
Darren Islar: And I try not to become that individual to break them :)
Calvino Rabeni: heheh Darren
Darren Islar: but a group works best if one is being pointed at as the one that breaks the rules
Susan Aloix: :)
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, that role is called ScapeGoat
Susan Aloix: say more darren please?
Calvino Rabeni: and it is an important job
Darren Islar: I can do the group a favour :))
Calvino Rabeni: You can :)
Darren Islar: about what Susan?
Susan Aloix: can be a rotten experience being the scapegoat
Calvino Rabeni: So eveyone has a "job"
Susan Aloix: ohh the idea that it works best if one is being pointed at as the one that breaks the rules
Darren Islar: ah
Darren Islar: it is like pointing at the alcoholics in the parc
Calvino Rabeni: For some meaning of "best", that seems true
Darren Islar: happy you are not one of them
Susan Aloix: yeah....usually a dysfunctional symptom of *groupthink* when inidiviuals are scapegoated.......
Darren Islar: making them outcasts, thinking that you are not like them
Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to think clearly about the dispossessed
Susan Aloix: indeed.....
Darren Islar: but in fact, if you dare to look closely at your self, you find you have a lot in common
Calvino Rabeni: Have you been in a group that had a scapegoat?
Darren Islar: everyone wants to be the hero
Calvino Rabeni: How did it feel when they left?
Susan Aloix: many cal
Darren Islar: but to become that, people forget that you first need to break the rules
Darren Islar: taking the chance you become the scapegoat instead of the hero
Calvino Rabeni: very good point
Calvino Rabeni: because there is a risk to go either way
Darren Islar: yes
Calvino Rabeni: in fact, it is part of taking leadership
Darren Islar: exactly
Susan Aloix: ohh well in terms of systemics...the *scapegoat* is a role and not a *person*..sooo once the *goat* is sacrificed...the group will then be addicted to the process.....it is not long before they re-commence their hunger for another scapegoat....its a sign the group cannot deal with their *stuff* and project it onto something for a deflection
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Darren Islar: right Susan
Susan Aloix: i've led classes and seen before my eyes the class scapegoating
Darren Islar: could you do anything?
Calvino Rabeni: if you don't like the leader of the political party that you didn't vote for, that seems like an attempt to create a scapegoat
Calvino Rabeni: I've seen that too, Susan
--BELL--
Darren Islar: I don't want to, but I really need to go
Susan Aloix: yes....i was in a position to be very directive ...(but my influence was limited Darren) i invited the group to re-direct their projections onto themselves...most of them stopped their lust to sacrifce the goat when they saw they held the exact same quality they were so keenly placing on the one student...(but it was limited influence..as the next year i was not teazching there and the student left)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: See You soon Darren <3
Darren Islar: bye everyone :)
Calvino Rabeni: take care Darren <3
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Do you have new outlook?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Darren ;)
Darren Islar: that means nothing really changed
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: somehow,
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm, okey ;)
Darren Islar: sorry to hear
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: look good ;)
Darren Islar: bye now :)
Susan Aloix: some change...but yeah.....c ya darren :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Bye ;)
Calvino Rabeni: Bye!
Calvino Rabeni: And I've seen it be useful to the group, by carying out bad energy
Calvino Rabeni: It is hard to explain
Calvino Rabeni: In a teamwork group, where people work together
Susan Aloix: Well its usually not a scapegoat in that case....its more *literally dysfunctional behavior * and they need to leave
Calvino Rabeni: but there are tensions and different ideas about how things shoudl be done
Calvino Rabeni: then some people start to subvert and resist
Calvino Rabeni: which isn't a bad thing per se
Calvino Rabeni: but the group itself is not clear about their commitment to working together
Susan Aloix: yes.....an aggressive attack on group goals and leadership is dysfunctional and time wasting
Calvino Rabeni: and everyone accepts some part of that dissent
Calvino Rabeni: because, it has an element of truth
Calvino Rabeni: and then, theres a "culling" where some people ae asked to leave
Calvino Rabeni: so they go somewhere else and do things their way
Calvino Rabeni: and the group knows that those functions will be done, those ideas will be pursued
Calvino Rabeni: but not in THEIR group
Calvino Rabeni: so the give up the confusion
Susan Aloix: yeah....but thats not scapegoating...thats a naturally sorting out
Calvino Rabeni: and accept a narrower more focuesd definiton of how to do things
Susan Aloix: scapegoating is where the group are dysfunctional and not the person
Calvino Rabeni: but it is, because often there's a lot of heaviness projected on them
Calvino Rabeni: like - you don't fit in, you're not a team player, you don't have what it takes to work here
Calvino Rabeni: because people have attachements and affection for those colleagues
Susan Aloix: but they are honest assessments
Susan Aloix: scapegoats cope incorrect assessments
Calvino Rabeni: and so have to make up some problem, to create some blame
Calvino Rabeni: to have an excuse to drive them away
Calvino Rabeni: it is an exaggeration,
Calvino Rabeni: it happens even when, you can't objectively say one way is better than the other
Susan Aloix: yeah...its a sore and painful business at times being in a group.....where people are not in the *flow*
Calvino Rabeni: where there are just, incompatible alternatives
Calvino Rabeni: then each"side" makes the other wrong
Calvino Rabeni: like the polarized relationship between political parties
Susan Aloix: yeah....conflict over group goals...visions....painful stuff at times......
Calvino Rabeni: to make someone, or a group, "wrong" is to give up responsibility for the part of the whole that is their "job" to be responsible for
Susan Aloix: i see your point how it all gets mixed up
Calvino Rabeni: just because norms are not perfect
Calvino Rabeni: and in fact are compromises
Susan Aloix: they can be....very much so
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: the most good thing would be acceptance
Calvino Rabeni: Like if sobriety is a norm, then it is good to have an occasional wild party carnival
Calvino Rabeni: acceptance would include - respect for the people that hold the opposing "jobs" to one's own
Calvino Rabeni: as we specialize and cooperate
Susan Aloix: carnivals and acceptance....great norms...i'm in :)

Cat thing with differences***
Calvino Rabeni: My mother got 2 kittens
Calvino Rabeni: from the same mother
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: they are becoming more and more different
Susan Aloix: 2 kittens!!!
Calvino Rabeni: one is wild and always moving energetically - the other is becoming a "thinker"
Susan Aloix: cool!!!
Calvino Rabeni: the quieter one lets the wild one do all the active work
Susan Aloix: lol cute
Susan Aloix: i love kittens
Calvino Rabeni: when petted, one arches up to meet the hand
Calvino Rabeni: the other shrinks away slightly
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: <3
Calvino Rabeni: one watches the other chase the toy, and then just waits
Susan Aloix: ohhh so sweet :))
Susan Aloix: lol
Calvino Rabeni: if they teamed up to catch a prey, one would chase it, the other would wait and receive it
Calvino Rabeni: they are learning naturally to be different and to cooperate
Susan Aloix: yes beautiful cal
Susan Aloix: and humans have very sophisticated abilities for co-operation
Calvino Rabeni: yes don't we?
Calvino Rabeni: and all that "stuff" about darwinism being competition, is SO distorted
Calvino Rabeni: the majority of behavior in nature is cooperative and symbiotic
Calvino Rabeni: which leads to effective survival, etc.
Susan Aloix: sooooo agree with you on that rhetoric on competitiveness by some radical evolutionary psychologists ....*selfish gene* crowd....
Calvino Rabeni: It started earlier, in the industrial age
Calvino Rabeni: "Nature Red in Tooth and Claw"
Calvino Rabeni: the more modern evolutionary biologists are looking at cooperation
Susan Aloix: ohh indeed cal!!
Susan Aloix: yes they are......
Calvino Rabeni: Competition entered, with the industrial revolution
Susan Aloix: hard wired to co=operate....we'd be extinct without it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Pablo ;))
Calvino Rabeni: Sure would
pablito Steampunk: hello all
Calvino Rabeni: Hello
Susan Aloix: Hello Pablito
pablito Steampunk: hi, your investigating competition i see
pablito Steampunk: nice topic
pablito Steampunk: i've always had a problem around the competitive spirit
Susan Aloix: well more investigating co-operation :) but yes :)
pablito Steampunk: makes me feel uneasy
Susan Aloix: i heard an interesting talk the other day on this topic
pablito Steampunk: and not enjoying thye present as much
pablito Steampunk: hi Zaldaan
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: Hi Zaldaan ;)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: once I have thought
Susan Aloix: they were saying humans ability to be empathic is limited to a tribe of about 120 - 180 people.....thats the kind of number of people we can generally get to know enough to feel immediate empathy for....which is about the size of a small human tribe....apparently as we've grown in numbers...are ability to achieve emapthy for larger numbers is really limited....apparently this is why we are prone to constructing *out groups* who we are less empathic towards...
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: if there is something I do not "like" or "know" there is something for me to learn - or - to remember
Calvino Rabeni: right, this is tribalism, which is a natural built in structure of humans
Calvino Rabeni: not something we evolved beyond
Calvino Rabeni: I think the same way, Cos
--BELL--
Calvino Rabeni: good distinction too - learn OR remember - I like it
Susan Aloix: yes cosmis...same for me
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: those things I feel to like or know, maby I have "worked" with lately.. in time and space... and those I do not like, maby I have not been with those issues for a looonggg time
Calvino Rabeni: nice way to think about it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: so those "seems" to be unfamiliar
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but at the end they are not
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: only forgottan
Calvino Rabeni: yes
pablito Steampunk: well, cosmic you have your own business right? do you feel under a competitive environment in your field of work?
Susan Aloix: :) nice process cosmic
Susan Aloix: hello Zaldaan
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: no I don`t
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I think we all have our own customers
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: we are like magnets
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: to attract those who suppose to come to us
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: there are room for everyone
pablito Steampunk: yes
Zaldaan Sirnah: "Peace".
pablito Steampunk: Peace and Love Zal ^^
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but yes, I have seen jealousity
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but I have also found out
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: jealousity is the one`s problem who is feeling it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: not the one`s who they are jealous about
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: then comes compassion
pablito Steampunk: i see
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and maby if people do realice this, there is room for everyone, they do not need to feel jealousity
pablito Steampunk: yes, jealousy can come to be relized as wasted energy
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: But in general business is very competitive
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but I do work with Beauty
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: I feel it to be more like client service
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: do not mind competition
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: hmm and, people do have their free will to choose what to buy and where
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: and its needed to respect
pablito Steampunk: do you think people enjoy competition for the emotional excitement?
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: maby some do enjoy it
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: but I do not see it very beautifull
pablito Steampunk: its what gets them outta bed lol
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: or maby not at all
Calvino Rabeni: I like it as a kind of game at some times
Calvino Rabeni: just don't want to live that way and take it seriously
pablito Steampunk: not for me either, like i say, when i'm in the field of behaviour, i tend to feel inadequate in it
Calvino Rabeni: inter-group competition is a bonding force
pablito Steampunk: more criticising it rather than partaking of it
Calvino Rabeni: wiithin the group
Calvino Rabeni: the solution to criticising is to partake
pablito Steampunk: sure
Calvino Rabeni: I had a friend with a hatred of hunters
pablito Steampunk: but i never get the job done lol
Calvino Rabeni: so I proposed, to get over it, we to buy a rifle and do some shooting
Calvino Rabeni: it would have worked - if they went along with it :)
pablito Steampunk: i kinda paralyze myself through analzing it
Calvino Rabeni: It worked for me
Zaldaan Sirnah: Jealousy seems to operate at multiple levels -- perhaps we even label multiple things under the one term. The feeling we have when someone has something they want, or think/feel/know we might need. Then there is, at least, another jealousy, where someone does something and you felt that was "for you", or "yours".
Calvino Rabeni: jealousy, envy, many flavors I suppose
Zaldaan Sirnah: In my experience we regularly experience the later when we are kids, but then I did not experience it so much through many years, until older at a more subtle level when pursuing the discovery of "identity".
Zaldaan Sirnah: My identity, that is.
pablito Steampunk: well, i think one becomes enlightened by these experinces when they pick up on there own states and are quick ot observe them and resolve them by letting go of these what i call unhealthy states of mind such as jealousy, enzy etcetera
Susan Aloix: interesting Zaldaan....
--BELL--
Zaldaan Sirnah: lol, Calvino.. (hunting)
Susan Aloix: yes pablito...letting them go...or adopting a perspective that does not lead them into that state
pablito Steampunk: yes
Zaldaan Sirnah: I came up with many ideas and innovations, only to see, sometimes over 15 years later, someone finally implement it.
Calvino Rabeni: However, I think people are too quick to make a blanket dismissal of any so-called negative emotion - this can be an egotistical thing to do - just to make things easier
Calvino Rabeni: it ends up being self-sacrificing
Calvino Rabeni: there is no emotion or experience that does not have a divine core to it, is my feeing about it
Susan Aloix: jealousy is really hard to drop once you get a case of it lol....can take hours for some people to get rid of it...like a headache...and thats not even covering those who are chronically prone to jealousy...their whole life revolves around it
Calvino Rabeni: Have you heard of the concept of a "spiritual bypass"?
Calvino Rabeni: (I only said that once :)
pablito Steampunk: yes, it seems easy sitting here, saying just let go, but when your in certain situations, it can be tricky to get out of at times
Susan Aloix: i think there are some realy evil experiences where i struggle to envisage divine core to them...?
pablito Steampunk: caught in the negative emotions trap
Calvino Rabeni: that you have had?
Susan Aloix: yeah....not easy pablito
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: bypass?
Susan Aloix: no...that others have...such as wild angers that lead to violence or murder....nothing divine about them
Zaldaan Sirnah: bypass?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, it means, the idea to skip working through the reality of feelings that are "difficult"
Calvino Rabeni: acting,for instance, "above it all"
pablito Steampunk: especially if your surrounded by people with negative thoughts for a long period of time, it can rub on you too
Calvino Rabeni: like pretending to be evolved beyond anger
Calvino Rabeni: and finding ways to "banish" ti rather than learn from it
Susan Aloix: ohh can be exhausting around negative states...i agree
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ahh, okey now I "got" it
pablito Steampunk: yes draining
Calvino Rabeni: You understand
pablito Steampunk: and irritating
Zaldaan Sirnah: some people are better off not dwelling in regret -- so lumping all "negative" thoughts together might not work here.
Zaldaan Sirnah: (or feelings, etc. etc.)
Calvino Rabeni: the environment is certainly influential
Susan Aloix: I'm a bit lost Cal.....it looks really interesting what you're saying though.....please say a little more
pablito Steampunk: yes, very methinks Cal
Calvino Rabeni: well, the idea to label a feeling as "negative" and hope just to be rid of it by manipulating thoughts ...
Calvino Rabeni: what counts is the motivation
Susan Aloix: yes.....
Susan Aloix: i'm with you
Calvino Rabeni: if the motivation iss comfort and convenience, not learning and truth
Calvino Rabeni: then it is a "spiritual bypass"
pablito Steampunk: the problem with most societies is that they think alot on getting things done, but do not take in as much focus on the psycho social side of the environment
Calvino Rabeni: sometimes you do have to walk through the valley of the shadow
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: ah, now I need to go again... see you soon Dear Ones
Calvino Rabeni: agree, pablito
Calvino Rabeni: and they adopt a "fixit" mentality rather than a truth mentality
Susan Aloix: ohh yes...i agree cal...comfort and conveninece is an unexamined life......
pablito Steampunk: bye Cosmic
Calvino Rabeni: Bye again Cosmic <3<3<3
Susan Aloix: bye bye coasmic :)
Cosmicflower Ushimawa: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
pablito Steampunk: yes a lack of Dharma :)
Zaldaan Sirnah: Can we build a non-recorded area over yonder, and see where people choose to sit?
Zaldaan Sirnah: Here it is forced upon everyone.
Calvino Rabeni: I can turn it off, if you like
Calvino Rabeni: OK, I will take that as a Yes
Susan Aloix: i'm fine either way
Susan Aloix: i like that others can read our conversations tho
Zaldaan Sirnah: I'm good with it oPage Title

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