2010.07.25 19:00 - Contemplating Peace-ing and Bless-ing

The Guardian for this meeting was Calvino Rabeni. The comments are by Calvino Rabeni.

This session had a nice, connected quality and flow of dialogue.

Paradise Tennant: hiya cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good evening Paradise :)
Paradise Tennant: smiles ... how are you this evening :)
Calvino Rabeni: Good - I just returned from a visit to the city lake park on a perfect sunday afternoon
Paradise Tennant: Nice !
Calvino Rabeni: How has your day been?
Paradise Tennant: smiles .. drinking iced .. peppermint tea and rubbing very sore feet from a day of walking today and slightly stiff all over from a day of helping a friend move yesterday .. involved weeding a rather large lawn :) lots of bending :) but all in all perfect weather .. :)
Calvino Rabeni: The perfect weather invites a lot from those other activities
Paradise Tennant: it does
--BELL--

Paradise Tennant: was nice we were able to jump in a pool when it got too sticky :)
Paradise Tennant: what shall be the discourse tonight ?
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni is considering :)
Calvino Rabeni: I thought of something .... how about you, did you have something in mind?
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, how juicy should it be? :)
Calvino Rabeni: And we'll have a visitor soon
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Paradise Tennant: let's go with juicy
Paradise Tennant: hiya Mitzi :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Mitzi - good timing
Calvino Rabeni: we're entertaining topic ideas - fishing something up
Calvino Rabeni: I proposed - well, juicy? or abstract :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: well I feel a little serious, sad perhaps, about the human situation
Calvino Rabeni: (Sigh...) Calvino Rabeni gets in the mood for that :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: hi paradise, calvino (cheerfuls up)
Calvino Rabeni: The human condition is rather personal as it appears to me
Mitzi Mimistrobell: basically I've been thinking about how MUCH we are living in self-deception
Mitzi Mimistrobell: about how much we control things in the world, that we consciously make decisions etc.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: when most causality is flowing through us but doesn't originate with us
Paradise Tennant: sigh .. bits of fluff :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: but we take credit constantly for things we really shave no claim on
Mitzi Mimistrobell: maybe it's necessary for mental health to have these erroneous views
Mitzi Mimistrobell: but ... speaking of "accuracy in communication" which I asserted the other week was neeither needed nor wanted in interpersonal communication
Calvino Rabeni: The sad thing about it is ... ?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: the sad thing about it is ... we can't stand tall and accept ourselves as we are ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: instead we rely on falsehoods to get by in our everyday life
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... I guess I wished we could have more integrity.
Calvino Rabeni: the sad thing - one of them - is it doesn't really work :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: OK. I've said my piece.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: which doesn't work?
Paradise Tennant: how would you envision it being different mitzi :)
Calvino Rabeni: So, for example, hearts want to meet - and then we come together with blinders on, various unaware spikes, covered with flypaper :)
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: So there's a miss, or a mismatch, disappointments, some tender things gets skewered, feelings hurt, attachments activated .... heheh business as usual being a human :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: mmm.... this sounds like an interesting discussion I've just barged into. Hi, Calvino, Mitzi, Para.
Bruce Mowbray: please continue----
Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi invited a topic of the human situation, what seems sad about it, ... I thought of a personal story, and described what it felt like in general words :)
Paradise Tennant: hiya bruce :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Bruce, let's see how long I can stay sad.
Bruce Mowbray: OK. ;-)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow Bruce, you are stylin' tonight!
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, I'm wearing my tartans in celebration of the Nova Scotia retreat...
Bruce Mowbray: but --- continue with this "sadness about the human condition" if you will...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Paradise asked how I would envision it being different (continual level of self-deception about our control and responsibility level in life)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... so I'm thinking about that Paradise and will responde in due course.
Paradise Tennant: smiles always good to ponder :)
Bruce Mowbray ponders.
Bruce Mowbray: and saw that it was good (perhaps).
Calvino Rabeni: Not to replace your statement - but - I feel a lot of personal grief comes out of not having consciousness about self and other in what happens when we relate
Calvino Rabeni: I've seen people nearby hurt each other over a misunderstanding
Calvino Rabeni: and have had some rather insenstive comments directed at me (unrelated to the above)
Calvino Rabeni: which it took some maneuvers to deal with
Mitzi Mimistrobell: well, if we could agree that it's really OK to slow down interpersonal communication A LOT and take so much greater care to see if you can relate more sincerely or directly.
Calvino Rabeni: nice idea
Calvino Rabeni: the emotional reactions have a speed that far surpasses conscious control of communication, and trying to think how to do it well
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... but all that takes a certain amount of time, personal focus, inner attunement etc. ... we generally don't have copious amounts of all those wonderful resources available. It's a focus and presence scarcity situation, I feel.
Calvino Rabeni: So from that I have to think, a lot of work must be done "before" anything happens
Calvino Rabeni: I agree mitzi
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... skillful means ...
Calvino Rabeni: just saying, maybe, no amount of that focus would be sufficient all by itself, in the moment
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Skillful means as how to deal with a scarcity of skill and of means!
Calvino Rabeni: without all the background and base already in place
Paradise Tennant: went in search of the chocolate covered rasberries she bought to day ..convinced it will make the human condition appear brighter .. dog thinks so too .. he loves the sounds of paper crackling :) the promise of good things :)
Calvino Rabeni: through previous practice or something
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hmmm ... yes, of course ...
Calvino Rabeni: the human condition was also very bright at the park today where the children play in the pool
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... on the other hand, some amount of that focus *might* be sufficient all by itself, in the moment, to move things in a direction towards the more-aware ...
Calvino Rabeni: ahhh yes, awareness is always enough to change the direction, if not the state
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Here, this is a place where people are doing that exact thing, trying to be more present, move towards truth or something else good ...
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni randomly, recalls Steve Martin saying - no one can sound sad playing a banjo
Paradise Tennant: hmmm ....smiles love steve martin .. one of the this century's best physical comedians :) he expressive grace in action :)
Calvino Rabeni: surely so Para :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Generally, I avoid sadness. So, the fact I'm not avoiding it right now I can consider progress!
Calvino Rabeni: Yes :)
Paradise Tennant: not sure sad is such a bad thinkg ..it tends to make you tune in and slow down . :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bruce, are you a Shambhala Buddhist on retreat in Nova Scotia?
Bruce Mowbray: Are "being present" and "being happy" two things or one thing? -- or NO thing at all?
Calvino Rabeni: Everything we do, is poised between what it is, and what it could become, its possibilities or possible destinies
stevenaia Michinaga: evening
Mitzi Mimistrobell: You are so right, Paradise, it has that effect on me.
Paradise Tennant: hiya steve gtsy :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Stevenaia :)
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi Steve, nice to see you
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, steve. (and no, I'm not going to the NS retreat. . . just celebrating it).
Paradise Tennant: there is a pab retrreat in nova scotia week after next :) mitzi :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that's the one I'm celebrating (starting at the end, of course).
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Really?!?
Paradise Tennant: they are very worth while going to .. went to one in princeton in last summer and one in malta in january :)
Bruce Mowbray: yup.
Paradise Tennant: yes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Wow. So some of you have met in person then?
Paradise Tennant: August 1 to 7th I think Eos could provide you the details and there is blurb on it .. in the website
Paradise Tennant: yes
Bruce Mowbray: Four us "us" met in Cologne, Germany for lunch today (RL).
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I wouldn't be able to go this time, but intrigued ...
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, a very nice group of people even in RL, I have met a few too
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, Mitzi, I met several in person, during a visit to Princeton
Paradise Tennant: met pema .. eos .. sophia arabella .. mick ... yakuzza .. bert .. wol .. lia .. adams maxine .stevenaia a long list really :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: the people at these sunday meetings I attend seem to all be kind of core PAB folks ... is that true?
Calvino Rabeni: usually but not always
Bruce Mowbray: I've only been in PaB for three weeks, Mitzi.
Paradise Tennant: well there is the european contingent ..never on at this time
stevenaia Michinaga: there is a functioning group of people who tend to the workings of the groups, some of them usually are there
Mitzi Mimistrobell: right ... aha Bruce, interestingt to know, I couldn't tell it!
Bruce Mowbray: My tartans hide much inexperience, perhaps.
stevenaia Michinaga: I;m amazed at the complexity of what needs tending too
Bruce Mowbray: Blub
Paradise Tennant: we have digressed .. you were going to ponder how we could live our daily lives with more integrity :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ha ha! and hide othe things as well!
Calvino Rabeni: @bruce's earlier question - Hmm, presence and happiness - I'd have to say presence creates a state that transcends and includes happiness sadness, and other possible feeling conditions - so ... yes and no :)
Calvino Rabeni: And integrity would be - in practice - ?
Bruce Mowbray: Blub has been "present" here for a long time (in the pool, of course). . .
Bruce Mowbray: he "talked" me into coming. . .
Bruce Mowbray: And -- I have to say -- being here has certainly made me a happier man.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: being careful about the content of talking - being both as accurate as possible and sensitive and compasisionate re: the Other
Mitzi Mimistrobell: fewer words ... more meaning
Bruce Mowbray: If I might quote Ram Dass:
Bruce Mowbray: "I may say the wisest things. . . but unless I AM wise,
Bruce Mowbray: all of my words are empty boxes falling into the void...
Bruce Mowbray: If I AM wise, I need say nothing at all and the wisdom is transmitted."
Paradise Tennant: smiles :)
Calvino Rabeni: Well for an example, suppose you want to be close to someone, and they do what you perceive as attacking, or something that hurts - what is integrity in that situation?
Bruce Mowbray: Perhaps, then, more Being, fewer "meanings."
Calvino Rabeni: I can apply mitzi's suggestion to that
Bruce Mowbray: Whom are you asking, Calvino? All of us?
Calvino Rabeni: Yes
Bruce Mowbray: OK--- What do you folks say?
stevenaia Michinaga: not sure what you mean by "wants to be close"?
Calvino Rabeni: Because I like more to happen than just stating my own opinion
Bruce Mowbray thinks, Me too!
Mitzi Mimistrobell: "words are flowing out like drops of rain into a paper cup ... as they glide across the universe"
Calvino Rabeni: Say, a friend, steve - maybe an intimate - with a desire to know better
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: and to grow or enrich the relationship
Calvino Rabeni: that kind of "close"
Paradise Tennant: well hurt is subjective .. usually means you are taking something personally .. often .. when people are being hurtful . .there is little point in taking it personally because it simply unskillful behaviour .. patience :) is the best answer
stevenaia Michinaga: if, whatever your wishes are.. results in a situation of a "friend" doing something that you preceive as "harm", I should respect their actions and clearify that my intensions are and why they reacted in such as way
Mitzi Mimistrobell: So, in that situation that you describe, Calvino ... there is an event that is "percieved as attacking". So both parties could delve into that event, in more detail and depth, with sensitivity, and try to unpack it
Mitzi Mimistrobell: it's juicy and could really help deliver greater self awareness to both parties to do that
Calvino Rabeni: Mitzi, they could in principle
Calvino Rabeni: but one can't assume it possible in all relationships
Calvino Rabeni: or even in one, at all times
Mitzi Mimistrobell: right, teve, something like that, a good starting oint
Calvino Rabeni: so sometimes those ways of thinking, have to be unilateral
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I didn't assumt it was possible in all relationships; nevertheless, to attempt it would be informative
Calvino Rabeni: Para, I do think it useful to consider the attack as unskillful behavior
stevenaia Michinaga: integrity requires the need to be respectful
Calvino Rabeni: :) steve
stevenaia Michinaga: even when you don't currently understand the situation
Calvino Rabeni: yes, especially
Calvino Rabeni: isn't that really a typical case - not fully understanding?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I can relate - I have had the experience, more than once, of being perceived to be attacking or negative when I had no such intention, felt innocent, yet the other was hurt
Paradise Tennant: daily life has a grit factor .. kind of makes you alittlle crazy occassionally .. I normally .. try to dissassociate the behaviour from the person .. put it into a box as one of life's moments and .. stick in the back of the closet so to speak :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Wu wei works here
Paradise Tennant: yes!
Calvino Rabeni: To quote from earlier - "Expressive grace in action"
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni wonders what is in his closet :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I feel it's especially tricky when not in person, and email is the form. You lack the tone of voice, pheromones, body language that fills out a communication event.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: SL add s a little context but no not that much.
Bruce Mowbray: And yet, here we are -- communicating with re4spect for each other.
Calvino Rabeni: It happens in person too - because in that case, there is so much more and faster to deal with awarely
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... at my skill level anyway!
Calvino Rabeni: and some say the chat slows them down, to good result
Bruce Mowbray: Back to Cal's question:
Paradise Tennant: yes writing makes an "exact man"
Calvino Rabeni: "And yet - here we are" ... successful :)
Bruce Mowbray: I'm remembering two things:
Bruce Mowbray: "start at the end"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... that's intresting, Cal ...
Bruce Mowbray: and Gandhi's saying we should be the change we seek in the world.
Paradise Tennant: yes!
Paradise Tennant: or the change we seek in our lives !
Calvino Rabeni: Yes, both those angles bruce make me think of the "power of assumption"
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that both are saying the same thing - and both are a good answer to Cal's question.
Calvino Rabeni: we complain about the wrong assumptions
Calvino Rabeni: but some are very powerful and positive
Bruce Mowbray: When someone attacks you, why not "start at the end" and "be the peace" you wish would be in that relationship?
Paradise Tennant: yes!
Paradise Tennant: nods precisely
Bruce Mowbray: It's got to begin somewhere, right?
Bruce Mowbray: Why not with your starting at the end?
Bruce Mowbray: It might shock the person attacking you - - -
Paradise Tennant: very hard to get cranky with true .. meta :) lol
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: That's a great example Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: Not ask for permission; not wait for a process, not require something to be proved first, not need a quid pro quo - just assume / be what is true - and participate in its creation
Bruce Mowbray: Right on the mark, Cal!
Bruce Mowbray: This, it seems to me, is "real power."
Bruce Mowbray: The ability to be present -- and that's where "creation" happens.
Calvino Rabeni: "We are the ones we've been waiting for"
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, that's what integrity is
Bruce Mowbray: Not to be pulled out of the present by our own habitual reactive patterns... wanting to be respected - or ELSE!
Calvino Rabeni: Integrity / discipline I guess sometimes has a unilateral choice.
Calvino Rabeni: although not a lonely one
Calvino Rabeni: because its background includes everyone from whom I ever received "help"
Calvino Rabeni: There's the "inner ghandi" as well as the "inner critic" and "hurt child ..." and other less capable archetypes
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe even the inner divine :)
Calvino Rabeni: If we dare
Bruce Mowbray: I'd like to restate Cal's original question and see where we are with that:
Bruce Mowbray: Well for an example, suppose you want to be close to someone, and they do what you perceive as attacking, or something that hurts - what is integrity in that situation?
Bruce Mowbray: Are you any "closer"? Are you still hurting? Where are you with the "integrity" part?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: hte one who feels attacked must be brave within their vulnerability and state their hurt to the other.
Mitzi Mimistrobell:  I wonder what is the responsibility of the hurt party - to verify malicious intent PRIOR to freakikng out?
Calvino Rabeni: Or maybe forgive them, unilaterally, and then communicate to the best of ability
Calvino Rabeni: That makes sense to me Mitzi as a responsibility
stevenaia Michinaga: I must be off, night all
Calvino Rabeni: but, even if they nad some intent - to weigh it
Paradise Tennant: nite steve :)
Bruce Mowbray: Good night, Steve. and Thank you.
Calvino Rabeni: Gnite, steve :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: One person's hurful act is another person's playful jab
Calvino Rabeni: It might be more complex also Mitzi
Calvino Rabeni: I don't think one can rule out passive/aggressive by labeling it playful or unskillful
Calvino Rabeni: but that's not blame, is it?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: The ability to forgive unilaterally ... or to act "as if" relatively convincingly .. that would be a fantastic starting place.
Calvino Rabeni: Blame goes nowhere in a hurry
Calvino Rabeni: Even attributing intent - seems like a side show, maybe misleading
Calvino Rabeni: Well, how to make that"as if" maneuver easier?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: My boss tells me "well, I really let her have it!" referring to an email she wrote to a client ... when I read the email, it was mild and indirect in the extreme
Calvino Rabeni: Or the other way around - maybe the client received something mild, and felt "she really let me have it!"
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... that showed me how different people's perceptions of the same communication event can be
Bruce Mowbray thinks: I don't think that "acting as if" will cut it for very long . . .
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Acting "as if" is essential, I think, to function in the realm of human situation - that we are not omniscient, there is uncertainty
Bruce Mowbray: It seems to me that the resolution to conflict requires some form of contemplation. . .
Paradise Tennant: usually the confilct we percieve to be out in the world is really .. at play within us
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, and if in our "practice" (our contemplation) we can become that person with integrity. . . bot just "act as if" we were that person.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: hhmmm ... the email example shows what a huge amount of assumption, misunderstanding and subtlety can be packed into a small and seemingly simple communication moment .. but we devote few resources to them and seem to act as if these communications were simple, well-understood things that we are masters of.
Bruce Mowbray: although acting as if might be a good way to get the wheels rolling. ..
Calvino Rabeni: I can act "as if" someone did not have the cruel intent to me that my unexamined might presume - "as if" there is an intelligent and benign being there...
Calvino Rabeni: I agree about contemplation being powerful if one is to resolve conflict
Calvino Rabeni: agree mitzi, there is a whole karmic world to be unpacked in those moments
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... the person perceived as cruel might perceive themselves as kind ... yet, unconsciously they ARE cruel, and the percetion was accurate on the victim's part ... that happens too, a lot perceptions
Bruce Mowbray: I'm just thinking that there has to be a basis in Being peace for there to be a lasting peace in the relationship.
Calvino Rabeni: Hi Cinda :)
Bruce Mowbray: Hi, Luci!
Lucinda Lavender: HI Cal, Paradise, Bruce, Mitzi!
Paradise Tennant: hiya lucinda :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: one has to e secure and self aware enough in oneself to have the focus and presence resources to refrain from quick assumption and reaction ... to engage in a little unpacking ... then things could improve
Bruce Mowbray: agree, Mitzi.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... this is by way of agreeing with Bruce about Being peace
Paradise Tennant: and seeing things .. situations as appearances :)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, that "presence" of mind -- not being jerked here and there by our reactions -- if what I was calling "real power" earlier.
Bruce Mowbray: is what.
Paradise Tennant: not necessarily .. as concrete .. makes it easier to see the blurry bits at the edge of the picture you do not take it so seriously
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, Para -- especially the capacity to see the more DRAMATIC scenes as appearances.
Calvino Rabeni: I like the last couple statements by Mitzi and Bruce
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Hi CInda!
Bruce Mowbray: I think this is where comtemplation becomes a very practical exercise.
Lucinda Lavender: hi:)
Bruce Mowbray: We practice being "here and now" so "later" we can be "here and now" with that.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Indeed, Bruce .. where the rubber meets the road. it's all very well to practice meditation, but how do you fare in interaction with a real "other"?
Calvino Rabeni: I get a little nervous though if peace comes up as a metaphysical idea, as if a basis could be found, and relied on, that doesn't involve being continually recreated by people's presence and connection
Bruce Mowbray: even if it is a very dramatic and gritty "later."
Mitzi Mimistrobell: "how deep is your love ..."
Calvino Rabeni: which in a way echoes Mitzi's last statemet
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I think your nervousness is well warranted, Calvino.
Calvino Rabeni: thus that we have to be it, do it, not just observe or absorb it
Paradise Tennant: smiles kind of sums up being :)
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I sure don't think "peace" is a metaphysical idea - - - I'm not even sure I know what a metaphysical idea is or if I've ever had one.
Calvino Rabeni: And actually, I feel that enough, to have banished "peace" as a noun from my personal thinking vocabulary
Bruce Mowbray: yeah, I think I understand what you mean, Cal.
Lucinda Lavender: having spoken his peace...
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Calvino Rabeni: hehe I think you do Bruce :)
Bruce Mowbray: So. . . "peace" becomes (for us) a state-of-being verb?
Calvino Rabeni: Maybe skillful means of some kind
Bruce Mowbray: and also a skilled "end" (the place where we start).
Calvino Rabeni: Yes :)
Calvino Rabeni: I meant yes to Bruce about the end :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I kind of resonate with Calvino about the word "peace" ... I'm a bit leery, as it feels like people often use it as if it was easy to achieve or even desirable to achieve .. which I'm not personally convinced is a good goal. Life seems to be inherently unpeaceful - I worry about people trying to impose a fake static form just to avoid difficult sitatuions ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: The word "peace" can mean many things at many levels ...
Calvino Rabeni: I see that too Mitzi
Bruce Mowbray: agree, Mitzi.
Bruce Mowbray: That's why I've been stressing contemplation -- which is anything but "fake static form."
Lucinda Lavender: Peace is discussed in the dream work I study...
Calvino Rabeni: Same here
Paradise Tennant: refuge ... or simply space might be a better word :)
Bruce Mowbray: please say more, Luci.
Calvino Rabeni: yes, contemplation is a key
Paradise Tennant: listens
Lucinda Lavender: and it is connected to logic,evolves to trust, is located in the body at the brain stem and bridges higher dimensions

Editor's note - later "brain stem" is retracted and "blood" is substituted as a body system for peace... se below.

Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like those words .. refuge ... space ...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Brainstem!!! :))
Lucinda Lavender: In a visual image I have looked at regarding these principles that resonate in the universe...peace is located out in space and is looking back in at the planet
Calvino Rabeni: Calvino Rabeni has a lot to think about with those ideas
Lucinda Lavender: I know..Cal...just thought I would share for a second...
Lucinda Lavender: just let float alongside...
Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, somewhere to start
Calvino Rabeni: embodying peace
Calvino Rabeni: a body must be able to relax physically, to allow peace as an experience?
Lucinda Lavender: does anyone know about the brain stem?
Bruce Mowbray: Well - -- maybe I'm just "dreaming" here, but I DO feel that life is inherently peaceful.
Calvino Rabeni: Higher dimensions ... meaning, there are phenomena of many levels, all working together to function as "peace" ?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bruce, I'd likes to unpack that a little more .. to understand what you mean by that ... instead of indulging my impulse to say "I disagree"
Lucinda Lavender: and well yes I guess you would say that...
Calvino Rabeni: Connection to logic - hmmm ?
Bruce Mowbray: ok, Mitzi, but first I think that Luci is moving toward a synthesis here. . .
Bruce Mowbray listens for more about the brain stem from Luci...
Calvino Rabeni: Which part would you focus on, Mitzi?
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ok
Lucinda Lavender: you guys discuss for a bit...I will see what I can get in to my head...
Calvino Rabeni: OK
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not sure I heard a synthesis in what Cinda said - maybe more a survey or a cornucopia.

The concept Peace goes forth embodied in a fresh and dynamic way: 

Lucinda Lavender: peace as divine emptiness...actually runs in the blood not brain stem.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: (whispers to Calvino) the meaning of the word "peaceful" to him, more details, examples
Calvino Rabeni: (whispers to mitzi) meaning of the banned word, hehehe ?
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: (I was starting at the end again).
Lucinda Lavender: beyond duality
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Bruce, I'm all in favor of that - feels very five dimensional - time's arrow is arbitrary ...
Bruce Mowbray: We only banned "peace" as a noun - not yet as a state-of-being verb.
Bruce Mowbray: although we could consider banning it there, also.
Calvino Rabeni: OK Bruce :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ohh ... no banning ... just unpacking ... let a thousand flowers bloom, I say ...!
Calvino Rabeni: But ... being is also banned, as is "state" - *** but only for me - you please continue to carry it for us ***
Bruce Mowbray: ha ha!
--BELL--

Calvino Rabeni: Haha Bruce - yes that's teamwork :)
Calvino Rabeni: But Calvino Rabeni intends to take the request seriously also :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: I like the definition of peace as "divine emptiness" - I lose all interest in arguing after hearing that definition.
Calvino Rabeni: (working on it)
Bruce Mowbray: Yes -- I think that is a superb way of putting it.
Calvino Rabeni: Can I whisper that phrase to you from time to time Mitzi?
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Bruce Mowbray: and I'm saying that THAT is the inherent nature of life - not violence or conflict.
Calvino Rabeni: unless I feel like I'd like to argue :)
Paradise Tennant: divine emptiness ..
Calvino Rabeni: Hmmm, a dignified choice to define life
Mitzi Mimistrobell: oooh Calvino ... by all means you may!! :)
Lucinda Lavender: emptiness that allows for the oneness of all
Bruce Mowbray: yes, and I also feel that unless we can be peace (verb) we really have no right to expect that the world will precede us with its peace.
Calvino Rabeni: but conflict and violence might have a dignified interpretation too, in a bigger frame?
Calvino Rabeni: Agree Bruce
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ahmen ... I meant to type ... ooh calvino .. by all means, you may!!
Calvino Rabeni: Involved for me, is the notion of being and impermanence - which I hesitate to bring a philosophical content into the mix, however
Lucinda Lavender: peace so filled with holy energy that it does not need to be expressed
Bruce Mowbray: I admit to being quite irrational about peace--- and was hoping that that's where Luci was going with her discussion of the brain stem.
Lucinda Lavender: sorry it was located in the blood
Calvino Rabeni: So from a nondual perspective, being and change and impermanence are not different
Bruce Mowbray: ok -- I'm bloody irrational about peace.
Calvino Rabeni: Blood, ok
Lucinda Lavender: runs in the blood
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ooh paradise ... you too,l anytime ...
Calvino Rabeni: This is a way of using the body as a source of archetypes or metaphors
Bruce Mowbray: That's cool -- I can go with body as metaphor.
Mitzi Mimistrobell: AAhh!
Lucinda Lavender: the vessles that carry the blood are full
Calvino Rabeni: The body is a great way to ground metaphors - because then we can "feel" them
Lucinda Lavender: not lacking or empty
Bruce Mowbray thinks he will put on his "fire heart" shirt.
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Lucinda Lavender: like your style...and Paradises
Calvino Rabeni: And pulsing, and requiring heart to CONTINUALLY renew, and integrate pushing and relaxing ....
Calvino Rabeni: all in the body / blood metaphor
Lucinda Lavender: heart being a brain of sorts
Calvino Rabeni: When the heart stops, we are dead
Lucinda Lavender: yes
Calvino Rabeni: when blood doesn't move
Calvino Rabeni: or not well contained
Calvino Rabeni: or not nourished by many things
Calvino Rabeni: or can't reach EVERY part of the body
Calvino Rabeni: (a social justice facet to the metaphor)
Lucinda Lavender: nutrients are carried through blood
Calvino Rabeni: that is a very dynamic, lively metaphor for peace, Cinda
Calvino Rabeni: to consider it linked with blood
Calvino Rabeni: and blood having such connections with warfare
Lucinda Lavender: yes!
Calvino Rabeni: it seems a bit of a re-posession of the substance
Calvino Rabeni: to put it home again
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, culturally we often asociate blood with conflict, sacrifice, and violence.
Calvino Rabeni: which feels healthy
Lucinda Lavender: yes! putting it back into the heart brain for one...
Calvino Rabeni: right
Mitzi Mimistrobell: The connotation of the word "peace" that worries me is the static thing ...
Bruce Mowbray: I like using blood as a metaphor for peace. . .
Calvino Rabeni: it is an integrative process, to entertain that metahpor
Calvino Rabeni: yes, mitzl
Calvino Rabeni: nothing is less static, more alive than blood
Bruce Mowbray: so -- peace needs to circulate. . .
Mitzi Mimistrobell: but the blood metaphor is full of life and dynamic movement
Calvino Rabeni: yes, and to carry, to give, to transport, to share
Lucinda Lavender: never ending flow of blessings
Calvino Rabeni: to be driven by the heart
Mitzi Mimistrobell: indeed, Bruce
Calvino Rabeni: to carry a sound and a movement throughout the body
Bruce Mowbray: Don't know if you're acquainted with the Dakinis, but the fire dakini (element) is located at the heart.
Bruce Mowbray: and the heart is what pumps the blood. . .
--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: For me, this means being "consumed" by something ---
Bruce Mowbray: as fire consumes.
Lucinda Lavender: the struggle is between understanding it as a sate of being and understanding it as the blessing
Lucinda Lavender: state
Calvino Rabeni: A nature image report from the timeout - full moon just rising, and a great blue heron comes from the east and passes over the house
Lucinda Lavender: :)
Bruce Mowbray: mmmm ;-) wonderful, Calvino.
Lucinda Lavender: Teapot on the boil...
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... peaceful ... byut not static ...
Calvino Rabeni: yes, full of fire
Calvino Rabeni: fire that is internalized
Bruce Mowbray: passion?
Calvino Rabeni: fire that is made powerful for the cells
Mitzi Mimistrobell: is somtehing peaceful if it reminds us of divine emptiness ...
Calvino Rabeni: yes
Lucinda Lavender: and becomes blood
Paradise Tennant: smiles so graphic :) corpeal :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: ... or if it circulates and distributes blessings ... or what ...
Lucinda Lavender: Could you imagine...Mother Theresa had three planets in Peace ...27 degrees.
Bruce Mowbray: I don't have a conflict between being peace (verb) and blessings.
Bruce Mowbray: That's feels like trying to separate the sun from its rays.
Calvino Rabeni: Yes seems that way
Bruce Mowbray: Peace is a blessing -- and blessing is peace. . . what's the problem there?
Calvino Rabeni: So, to participate in peace - is to be in the ability to bless and to be blessed
Bruce Mowbray: yes, for me, that is the case, Cal.
Bruce Mowbray: and that capacity is born in contemplation.
Calvino Rabeni: Now there seems, an idea that needs to be redeemed and re-commissioned
Bruce Mowbray: of "fired up" in contemplation.
Calvino Rabeni: Nice
Bruce Mowbray: "Blessed are the peacemakers."
Bruce Mowbray: (unpack that one)!
Calvino Rabeni: And Blessing are the peacemakers
Bruce Mowbray: yes! wonderful!
Calvino Rabeni: I'm not "Religious". However, I have a book of blessings for all occasions
Calvino Rabeni: Hmm, figure that
Bruce Mowbray: I say bless everything --- as much as you can -- all the time.
Lucinda Lavender: yes...
Calvino Rabeni: I wonder if it is possible to frame up the concept of "bless" to make good sense to atheists and /or rationalists (etc.)
Bruce Mowbray: That's a good note for me to go to bed on - -
Calvino Rabeni: Yes I agree Bruce / Lucinda
Lucinda Lavender: good question
Bruce Mowbray: Blessings to all of you.
Lucinda Lavender: I will dream on it...
Calvino Rabeni: And to you - thanks so much for coming tonight Bruce
Lucinda Lavender: :)))
Calvino Rabeni: _/!\_
Calvino Rabeni: namaste
Mitzi Mimistrobell: the peaceful ones are leaving ... sigh
Calvino Rabeni: That's ok Mitzi, we can have an argument now :)
Paradise Tennant: nite bruce
Paradise Tennant: namaste
Paradise Tennant: I think I will trundle off too :)
Paradise Tennant: thank you for the lively discourse :) it pulsated !
Mitzi Mimistrobell: trundle in peac then!!
Calvino Rabeni: hehehe
Calvino Rabeni: Good night Paradise :)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Indeed, it did pulsate ...
Paradise Tennant: smiles
Mitzi Mimistrobell: See you again next week maybe Paradise
Paradise Tennant: namaste all and thank you :)
--BELL--

Mitzi Mimistrobell: a good argument is envigorating ... helps one discharge stale old stuff ... thus promoting peace!!
Calvino Rabeni: That's not a skill I've acquired, Mitzi, but I'm open to learning
Mitzi Mimistrobell: (I did want to say that)
Mitzi Mimistrobell: Well Calvino, I am tired (though invigorated) so might push off shortly
Calvino Rabeni: Hi, Visitor
Calvino Rabeni: You arrived at the end of the meeting, but there's one here at 1 and 7 AM and PM everyday
Calvino Rabeni: this is the play as being pavilion - I'll send you a note
Calvino Rabeni: (Mitzi OK thanks for coming, see you later)
Calvino Rabeni: I'll turn off the recorder
Mitzi Mimistrobell: so long all ...