2010.12.23 01:00 - Pet Ownership and True Self

The Guardian for this meeting was Zen Arado. The comments are by Zen Arado. Present were Archmage Atlantis, Calvino Rabeni, oo0oo, Observerm Resident and myself

Cold weather:

Zen Arado: Hi Arch :)
Archmage Atlantis: Hello Zen :)
Zen Arado: just getting myself organized
Archmage Atlantis: May I speak to you off the recording?
Zen Arado: I'm late this morning
Zen Arado: I was feeding the birds
Zen Arado: it's very cold for them
Archmage Atlantis: 11 AM or so by you......very late to be cold
Archmage Atlantis: It is 62.5
Zen Arado: no it's 9am and it is -9 C
Archmage Atlantis: F by me outside
Archmage Atlantis: Umm
Zen Arado: it is 16 C in Miami
Archmage Atlantis: Ok, then it is colder than Miami, not much, but a lot warmer than Ireland
Zen Arado: 16 F where I am
Zen Arado: I get the temperature in different places on my iPhone
Archmage Atlantis: The coverter says 16.9F here, using my outside thermometer
Zen Arado: degrees C you mean?
Archmage Atlantis: yes, 16.9 C

Christmas Stuff:

Zen Arado: you looking forward to Christmas?
Archmage Atlantis: yes, not like a child would.......but a couple of friends will be coming for dinner
Zen Arado: ah good
Archmage Atlantis: Both are bringing something
Zen Arado: you don't go to your parents?
Archmage Atlantis: Cake, potatoes au gratin, cranberry sauce
Archmage Atlantis: My parents are passed on....20 years ago, or about that......I am an only child....no close relatives
Zen Arado: same here
Archmage Atlantis: k
Zen Arado: I have little family left
Zen Arado: but I have a sister and a couple of neices and their children
Archmage Atlantis: My friends are my family
Zen Arado: so I go to my neices house for Christmas dinner
Archmage Atlantis: That is nice
Zen Arado: I stayed on my own one year - ust me and my dog :)
Zen Arado: it's all in the mind
Archmage Atlantis: I understand that, and how it felt to me
Zen Arado: I spend lots of other days on my own - why should Christmas be any different
Zen Arado: ?
Zen Arado: it's because we are conditioned to think we
Archmage Atlantis: The social worker remarked on the absence of Christmas or other holiday decorations
Zen Arado: MUST spend Christmas with family
Zen Arado: they say Christmas was invented 150 years ago
Archmage Atlantis: I have a tree, (artificial) and the ornament of 32 years of relationships in the garage
Archmage Atlantis: I thought I would put them up
Archmage Atlantis: But that is past
Zen Arado: yeah - I have a little fibre optic tree
Archmage Atlantis: :)
Archmage Atlantis: Let me be in an optic for both of us *g*
Zen Arado: Hi Observerm
observerm Resident: hi Zen
Zen Arado: Christmas was better when I was working
Zen Arado: at least I got a few days off
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Observem
Zen Arado: though I used to work Christmas when I could in the old days
observerm Resident: hi Archmage
Archmage Atlantis: Me too, Zen
Zen Arado: I worked in Power Utilities
Zen Arado: in the early days we worked shifts
Zen Arado: I worked 5 Christmases in a row
Archmage Atlantis: Is power utilities like the electric company in the US?
Zen Arado: was better than lying around wattching the rubbish on TV
Zen Arado: yes - I hoped that was what you called them :)
Zen Arado: power stations we call them
Archmage Atlantis: The retail store I worked in was open on Christmas day, I didn't mind working so other employees could be home
Zen Arado: later I got a job as a training instructor
Archmage Atlantis: ding
Zen Arado: they all close at Christmas here
Zen Arado: jingle bells :)
Zen Arado: yeah I didn't mind working so men with families could get the time off
Zen Arado: I have had trouble getting groceries here
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, I have seen that evolve.......everywhere used to close for every holiday......the the corporations and the government began to take them away, 1 by 1
Zen Arado: I can't get across the road in my electric wheelchair
Zen Arado: there is a big frozen hump of ice at the side of the road
Zen Arado: but am hoping to get out tomorrow in a disabled friendly bus
Archmage Atlantis: Yes, they used the fact that other ppl couldn't get out as a justification for keeping everyone in
Zen Arado: I haven't been out of my apartment since last Monday
Archmage Atlantis: That s---ks
Zen Arado: it's very unusual for us to have such low temperatures
Archmage Atlantis: I know
Zen Arado: should be around 6 C at this time of year
Archmage Atlantis: Us too
Zen Arado: we had low temperatures like this back in the 70's
Archmage Atlantis: s/b 72 F or (looks for coverter)
Archmage Atlantis: 22.2 C
Zen Arado: ah you're still here observerm :)
Archmage Atlantis: e never left in my viewer
Zen Arado: I stsrted a new alt the other day and got a single name
Zen Arado: but was away for a moment
Zen Arado: but can only use in SL viewer
Zen Arado: Linden viewer I mean

Names:

Archmage Atlantis: Odd to me, why want a single name?
Zen Arado: phoenix requires two names
Zen Arado: it is my Japanese name
Zen Arado: or one of them
Zen Arado: that I got when I took the precepts
Archmage Atlantis: I thought you grew up in N Ireland
Archmage Atlantis: Oh, the religious name
Zen Arado: yes - it is a Zen thing
Archmage Atlantis: I understand
Zen Arado: your teacher gives you the name
Zen Arado: you don't choose it
Archmage Atlantis: Arch is my shamanic name
Zen Arado: mine is Taizan Doshin
Zen Arado: ah is it ?
Archmage Atlantis: And it was chosen by me on the quest
Zen Arado: what does it mean?
Archmage Atlantis: High Wizard of Atlantis
Zen Arado: Taizan means peaceful mountain
Archmage Atlantis: it fits
Zen Arado: Doshin means 'way of trust'
Archmage Atlantis: A peaceful mountain of trust
Zen Arado: in Zen they say you should sit like a mountain
Zen Arado: and the white clouds drift by
Zen Arado: but they don't bother you
Zen Arado: you just let them pass and don't try to grab them
Zen Arado: Hi Cal :)
Calvino Rabeni: Hi :) What's up?
Zen Arado: ah not much
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, Cal.....wondered where you might sit
Zen Arado: we were talikg about my Japanese names
Calvino Rabeni: I wondered if you'd wonder
Zen Arado: Hi oo0oo :)
oO0Oo Resident: hi peeps
Zen Arado: is that your name?
Archmage Atlantis: Hi, O :)
Zen Arado: ah it is ok
Zen Arado: have trouble typing it :)
oO0Oo Resident: O is fine

Howling at the moon:

Calvino Rabeni: the name oo0oo keeps reminding me of a hound howling at the moon
oO0Oo Resident: :)
Zen Arado: or someone who sees the wonder of everything
oO0Oo Resident: awww
oO0Oo Resident: howling at the wonder
Calvino Rabeni: the view from my castle keep
Zen Arado: wonder why wolves howl?
Calvino Rabeni: http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink
Archmage Atlantis: To me, Zen, it is the same reason humans talk
Calvino Rabeni: they ****Howlllzzzzzzzz**** to plug into the consciousness circuit that links them into a pack mind
Zen Arado: nice Cal
Zen Arado: where is that?
oO0Oo Resident: lol
Calvino Rabeni: right here :)
oO0Oo Resident: awesome
Calvino Rabeni: hehe
Archmage Atlantis: Being a cat form in life and in slife, I am aware
Zen Arado: maybe they just do it
Zen Arado: why does there have to be a reason ?
Calvino Rabeni: because :)
Zen Arado: my inquisitive mind
Calvino Rabeni: the reason is the story of what they are doing
Archmage Atlantis: humans require reason
Zen Arado: they just feel like it
Calvino Rabeni: humans require stories
oO0Oo Resident: did you know that elephants purr
Calvino Rabeni: just as wolves do
Archmage Atlantis: The others just do
Zen Arado: no I didn't o
Calvino Rabeni: and when they tell the story they call it a reason
Zen Arado: maybe we do it for the same reason wolves howl
oO0Oo Resident: I was reading about why cats purr, and all manner of other animals do too
oO0Oo Resident: guinea pigs, rabbits
oO0Oo Resident: can't remember them all
Zen Arado: guinea pigs squeak :)
Calvino Rabeni: it may be as complicated as why humans make sounds or yawn
Calvino Rabeni: no one really knows
oO0Oo Resident: elephants was curious
Zen Arado: my sister was a great fan of guinea pigs
Calvino Rabeni: cats may purr when in pain
Calvino Rabeni: or in pleasure
oO0Oo Resident: laughing and crying are sometimes thought to be kind of confined to humans
Calvino Rabeni: thought by humans
Zen Arado: jackals laugh?
Archmage Atlantis: I had a lover who had,, oh s...., I am stuck
Zen Arado: purred Arch?
Archmage Atlantis: Not prarie dogs
Calvino Rabeni: dogs and humans have a lot in common due to their evolving together
Archmage Atlantis: Desest rodents
Zen Arado: yes agree Cal
Calvino Rabeni: laughing may be analogous to barking in dogs
oO0Oo Resident: hooooooooooooooooooowllll!

Pets:

Zen Arado: read somewhere that dogs and humans have been associating around 40.000 years
Zen Arado: so they have picked some pf our bad habits
oO0Oo Resident: that's a lot of slobbery tennis balls
Zen Arado: but they are social like us
Archmage Atlantis: Hey, cats have been with us at least half that time
Zen Arado: :)
Archmage Atlantis: They just won't admit it
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: there were cats in Egyptian times anyway
Archmage Atlantis: Right, 5000 years ago
Archmage Atlantis: Dogs and cats go much farther back
Archmage Atlantis: before recorded history
Zen Arado: dogs have suffered a lot from us too
Zen Arado: we have midbred them into monsters sometimes
Zen Arado: I miss my little dog
Archmage Atlantis: We may do that to ourselves, with our knowledge of DNA
Calvino Rabeni: what monstrous qualities do you mean Zen?
Zen Arado: he died around this time abaout 5 years ago
Zen Arado: they have breathing difficulties because we want certain facial conformation
Zen Arado: some breeds
oO0Oo Resident: ya, it gets a little weird
Archmage Atlantis: A pug, then,
oO0Oo Resident: pugs eyes pop out of the sockets etc etc
Zen Arado: and we make them dependent on us
Calvino Rabeni: I have a friend who just lost a dog... its hard to lose a long time friend who's an animal
Zen Arado: I miss my dog more than my parents
Zen Arado: sad but true
Archmage Atlantis: small dogs are very dependent, and much like domestic cate
Calvino Rabeni: If the dogs were not dependent, they'd need to be savage
Calvino Rabeni: the human breeding program is for tameness and dependence
Zen Arado: true
Calvino Rabeni: which are basically the same thing
Zen Arado: we like their dependency I guess though
Archmage Atlantis: It is why I like domestic cats bred with wild species
Calvino Rabeni: Cooperative and empathetic
oO0Oo Resident: I find that when i think enough about it, domestcating animals, especially pets, seems just...
Calvino Rabeni: helpful and loyal
Archmage Atlantis: Bengals are domestic cats bred with SE wild cats
Zen Arado: dogs give so much unconditinal love
Calvino Rabeni: giving them virtues
Archmage Atlantis: K,. now we see love as a central point
Zen Arado: yes 0 - there are arguments as to why we shouldn't have pets
Archmage Atlantis: interesting
oO0Oo Resident: I think too much though
Calvino Rabeni: what arguments Zen ...?
Zen Arado: pet ownership not a good thing in some ways
Calvino Rabeni: Besides that we can't eat them if they are pets
Zen Arado: we use them for our own ends
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: we become emotionally dependent on them
Archmage Atlantis: fine line
Zen Arado: instead of humans
Archmage Atlantis: they use us also
Calvino Rabeni: its symbiosis
Zen Arado: yes - a co-dependency
Calvino Rabeni: and if I love a dog, it doesn't interfere with loving a human
Zen Arado: maybe cats and dogs are just using us
Zen Arado: we are the mugs
Zen Arado: providers of food
Zen Arado: saves them having to hunt
Archmage Atlantis: there can be healthy co-dependency......the psychologists and therapists make a business out of portraying it as unhealthy
Calvino Rabeni: They have weaseled their way into our groups with a little charm and some cute-eye tricks
Zen Arado: notice sparrows lining up on my fence every morning waiting for me to feed them too
Calvino Rabeni: begging for scraps around the primordial fire
oO0Oo Resident: we take them out of their natural environments, force them to live contrary to many of their natural tendencies, feed them mixtures of waste products, desex them, spend large sums of money on them, that could go toward arguably more ethical causes.... oh dear
Calvino Rabeni: and finding useful things to do so they weren't driven away
Archmage Atlantis: Yep, and my parrokeet
Archmage Atlantis: (s)
Zen Arado: yes 0 - they pay a price for their dependency
Archmage Atlantis: This is important,,,,what is ethical
Calvino Rabeni: I'd axe the gambling industry before the pet industry, if looking for places to save pennies
Archmage Atlantis: As do we
Zen Arado: and we could feed a lot of people with the tins of food we give pets
Zen Arado: people are so stupid with gambling
Calvino Rabeni: Another way of putting that might be, that we want humans to have all the food
oO0Oo Resident: Is that an election promise cal?
oO0Oo Resident: ;)
Zen Arado: true Cal
Zen Arado: but we breed so many pets too
oO0Oo Resident: everything eats everything
oO0Oo Resident: but...
Calvino Rabeni: but we breed so many dvd players too
oO0Oo Resident: it's such an artificial set-up nowadays, in some places
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: nothing makes sense :)
Archmage Atlantis: Um,, it as always been artificial
Zen Arado: what a strange world we loive in
Calvino Rabeni: live and love
Archmage Atlantis: Now we try to make sense of it
oO0Oo Resident: if DVD players evolve cute expressions, will the DVD survive i wonder
Zen Arado: we take ourselves so seriously too :)
Calvino Rabeni: the robots are evolving cute expressions
oO0Oo Resident: they sure are
Archmage Atlantis: From dust I am formed, and to dust I shall return
Zen Arado: DVD players will go the way of all electronic inventions
Calvino Rabeni: land fill?
Zen Arado: yep
Archmage Atlantis: land fill.....a step up from dust
Archmage Atlantis: The 90 seconds......it allows us all to catch up

My latest spiritual investigations:

Zen Arado: life is just like a picture show I think
Zen Arado: just watch the illusions but don't take it too seriously
Zen Arado: yes - I am practicing Advaita techniques atm
Zen Arado: you come back to 'I am'
Zen Arado: so simple
oO0Oo Resident: how do you come back
Zen Arado: you come back to what you are underneath all the thoughts
Zen Arado: and rest in that
Calvino Rabeni: protoplasm?
Zen Arado: but your mind doesn't want to let you do that
oO0Oo Resident: are there techniques for how, and then remembering to do so?
Zen Arado: the trouble with techniques are they are ego directed
oO0Oo Resident: and what is underneath
Zen Arado: it wants to be in charge
Zen Arado: so it's more about letting all that thought go
oO0Oo Resident: wonderplasm
Calvino Rabeni: heh
Zen Arado: and sensing what is underneath it
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: ok - it's not easy to explain
oO0Oo Resident: ;)
Zen Arado: but there is some kind of true self I think
Zen Arado: that we add an ego structure to
Calvino Rabeni: I suspect what is "underneath" did a lot of work to evolve the stuff that is "on top"
Zen Arado: yes - of course it did
Zen Arado: then it suffers from it
Zen Arado: I can't explain it very well - I am not a guru
Zen Arado: but just telling you what I am thinking lately
oO0Oo Resident: well it's
oO0Oo Resident: hard in the sense that
Zen Arado: I go from Zen to Advaita and back
Calvino Rabeni: Also I suspect the "true self" is equally likely to be a thing that evolved with a jumble of cobbled together pieces working on different principles
Zen Arado: sometimes I think Advaita makes realization sound too easy
Calvino Rabeni: yeah Zen, that's the hook
oO0Oo Resident: if we were sitting together in RL, there would be something else altogether happening in the interstices of concepts and talking
Calvino Rabeni: everyone wants something quick and easy
Zen Arado: but it could be that way too Cal and we like to complicate it
Calvino Rabeni: might be the ego is an oversimplification of the actual chaotic complexity of the True Self
Zen Arado: we prefer something that provides a long path
Zen Arado: oh yes it is complicated for sure
Zen Arado: why can't that happen in SL too though, 0?
oO0Oo Resident: well, my sense is that it is kind of infered or extrapolated in SL
oO0Oo Resident: but cannot be
Zen Arado: if someone gives us a seven step plan that takes 4 years we are far happier :)
oO0Oo Resident: the same
Zen Arado: then we think we are getting somewhere :)
Calvino Rabeni: Reading back what you said Sam,
Zen Arado: though you are right I guess 0
Calvino Rabeni: what kind of "something else altogether" are you thinking about
Zen Arado: they say gurus like Ramana Maharshi has some kind of presence
oO0Oo Resident: direct knowing
oO0Oo Resident: ?
Calvino Rabeni: A 7 year 4 step plan will be preferred to "just face it, what you yearn for can never be!"
Zen Arado: if you merely spent time with him you could be enlightened

Direct knowing in RL/SL:

Calvino Rabeni: Direct knowing would happen in RL but not in SL? Or just certain knowing in RL doesn't transfer?
Zen Arado: but we will never be able to experience that
Zen Arado: wonder if he was in SL would you feel that presence>
oO0Oo Resident: I'm shooting from the hip, Cal, but
Calvino Rabeni: pow
Calvino Rabeni: hit something :)
Zen Arado: :)
Calvino Rabeni: not sure what :)
oO0Oo Resident: the direct knowing possibility is for me here in my fingers typing, my bodily sense here, etc
oO0Oo Resident: then I am with you all in a highly abstracted way
oO0Oo Resident: typing
Zen Arado: we are abstracted from each other in RL too though
Calvino Rabeni: well, we could sync the streaming music and all move and dance in unison in our RL environments
Zen Arado: just sensory impressions
oO0Oo Resident: I have read that there are PAB live events happening around the world
Calvino Rabeni: No such thing Zen
oO0Oo Resident: that would make for an interesting comparison
Zen Arado: well - we interpret sensory information
Calvino Rabeni: well, I have to go sorry
Zen Arado: our vision is only 2 dimensional
oO0Oo Resident: bye cal
Zen Arado: yes - I should go too I guess
Calvino Rabeni: but that's a "thin" view of reality that I think we've evolved beyond
Zen Arado: bye Cal
Calvino Rabeni: OK TC, thanks everyone
Zen Arado: we'll continue another time I hope
Zen Arado: our brain adds so much to sense impressions
Zen Arado: anyway I btter go
oO0Oo Resident: k, thanks for your explainations
Zen Arado: thanks for coming and enjoyed discussion
Zen Arado: bye
oO0Oo Resident: bye
oO0Oo Resident: to be human is to be limited
oO0Oo Resident: it is an awkward thing
oO0Oo Resident: can one fall back to the shared desire for happiness, and wish not to suffer i wonder
oO0Oo Resident: having said all that about pets, I have a cat walking on my keyboard
oO0Oo Resident: thx Arch
oO0Oo Resident: OK, I'll make a shocking clumsy leap up, and transition off into the gloam
oO0Oo Resident: /bows