The Guardian for this meeting was Bruce Mowbray. The comments are by Bruce Mowbray.

I initially presented a few questions -- not only to stimulate discussion but also because they have been with me my whole life in one form or another - still unanswered.  

Unfortunately, I had to leave the computer after the first hour -- and so missed one of the most endearing PaB discussions I've ever read.  I asked - after leaving - if folks wanted me to edit out any of the personal things they'd said - and to please let me know . . .  (That question is still out there, btw.) 

Thank you, everyone, for this FINE session!

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Kori!
Korel Laloix: Heyaya

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Qt!
Qt Core: Hi Bruce, Korel
Korel Laloix: Heya'
Bruce Mowbray: I've been thinking about this week's topic.... and all week I've been sort of bugged by a question. . .
Bruce Mowbray: Is "love" learned?
Bruce Mowbray: Do we have to have models for it?
Bruce Mowbray: And if we do, where do those models come from?
Korel Laloix: Think it depends on your definition.
Bruce Mowbray: kk. I'll be more specific...
Qt Core: i hope it is learned... so i could just say i haven't gone to school yet
Qt Core: ;)
Korel Laloix: But yes... I grew up in a pretty loveless environment.....
Bruce Mowbray: For example, a model for "happy marriage."
Bruce Mowbray: Where would that come from?
Korel Laloix: so it took me a while to sort my feelings to come to the conclusion
Korel Laloix: that the feeling I had was love.

Bruce Mowbray: or a "happy partnership."
 Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.... So, are you saying you "discovered" love -- or that you have to invent it for yourself, Kori?
Korel Laloix: Not really.
Korel Laloix: I had people that grew very fond of me.
Korel Laloix: Romantic and not.
Bruce Mowbray listens carefully.
Korel Laloix: It just took me a while to figure out the feelings I had for them.
Bruce Mowbray: Heya, Zon.
Qt Core: Hi Zon
Bruce Mowbray: Come on aboard, Zon. We need your help here... or at least I do.
Zon Kwan: heya
Zon Kwan: oh ?
Korel Laloix: There was sort of a boundary that I had to get over where it stopped being functional.. and started being emotional.
Bruce Mowbray: Hhhhm. Let me bring Zon up to date on the discussion so far...
Korel Laloix: ok
Bruce Mowbray: I originally asked if "love" were something that we'd need to have modeled for us -- before we knew what it was.
Bruce Mowbray: and I gave examples of "happy marriage" or "happy partnership."
Bruce Mowbray: I guess my assumption is that we "learn" what love is..
Bruce Mowbray: from the models we have in our original families -- or perhaps relationships.
Korel Laloix: which maybe the reason I looked at my early relationships as just what could they do for me.
Korel Laloix: Modeled after how my mother treated me.
Zon Kwan: hm..we model behaviour patterns
Bruce Mowbray: But Kori, if that was all you had available as a model for loving: "What they can do for me...", then that sort of makes my point.
Korel Laloix: But then again, my upbringing was really effed up.
Zon Kwan: or ways of expressions
Bruce Mowbray listens
Korel Laloix: I sort of agree with you Bruce.
Zon Kwan: not love itself
Zon Kwan: love is not a pattern
Korel Laloix: Loving involves learning to let yourself be vulnerable.
Bruce Mowbray wants to hear more (MUCH more) about this "love itself" thing.
Korel Laloix: And if you grow up never ever letting that happen.. then Love will not find you quickly.
Bruce Mowbray doesn't understand "love itself" nor "Love will find you...."
Korel Laloix: Not sure how to say that.
Korel Laloix: If you don't let other people in, then love can't get at you.
Zon Kwan: can love be understood by mind ?
Korel Laloix: You have to let someone into your emotions in order to love them.
Zon Kwan: love is to be open
Korel Laloix: I think love is emotional, intellectual, instinctual, and hormonal.
Zon Kwan: opposite of fear
Korel Laloix: Not sure about that.
Bruce Mowbray: kk. Then, I'll go back to my other question: Is love something that we 'discover' or is it something that we 'invent'?
Korel Laloix: You can have respect for someone and love them.

Bruce Mowbray: (sry about the fountain, folks.... I lowered it so I could see us from the front....)

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: love is seeing oneness with "other", fear is seeing otherness in "other"
Bruce Mowbray: You mean, love is feeling no separateness ?
Zon Kwan: seeing oneness in separateness
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Bruce Mowbray is really confused now.
Zon Kwan: its not a mind thing
Korel Laloix: I am not sure.. there are things and people that I separate myself from for practical reasons, not fear.
Zon Kwan: have you ever been in love ?
Bruce Mowbray: I have been in love several times -- each time very different...
Korel Laloix: Very much so.. smiles
Zen Arado: Hi all
Bruce Mowbray: and none of them actually very "successful...."
Korel Laloix: Heya
Zon Kwan: did you think or feel love?
Korel Laloix: successful?
Qt Core: hi Zen
Zen Arado: so romantic here ...sigh
Bruce Mowbray: I seem to do better when I AM love -- rather than "being in love."
Zon Kwan: hi Zen
Bruce Mowbray: Well, I guess that a marriage that ends in divorce in only a year is not very 'successful.'
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Zen.
Zon Kwan: hm
Zon Kwan: successful ?
Korel Laloix: I can't argue with that.
Zen Arado: better than never being married?
Zon Kwan: love ?
Zen Arado: you made it for a year anyway
Zon Kwan: dotn mix love with marriage
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.... I don't think we did, actually. Although it was legal for a year.
Zen Arado: you made it to the altar anyway
Bruce Mowbray: kk. . . . I'll return to the original questions, for Zen and others who might need a refresher...
Zen Arado: had a honeymoon?
Zon Kwan: marriage can be successful without love, eg, for economic reasons
Korel Laloix: I don't seem to be able to get past nine months in relationships.
Bruce Mowbray: I wanted to know if "love" required us to have models.
Korel Laloix: Or in arranged marriage cultures.
Bruce Mowbray: Models either from our parents, or close relations...
Bruce Mowbray: and also, whether love is discovered or invented....
Bruce Mowbray: and how one might know.
Zon Kwan: hm
Zen Arado: maybe not 'required' but they influenced us for sure
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Eliza!
Zen Arado: Hi Eliza :)
Zon Kwan: love is energy
Korel Laloix: The idea of emotional role models does appeal to me.
Zon Kwan: Eliza :)
Korel Laloix: Heya
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, San!
Zon Kwan: its right behaviour, not love
Qt Core: Hi Eliza
Santoshima Resident: hello
Qt Core: Hi San
Zon Kwan: to behave by certain rules, how can that be love ?
Bruce Mowbray: I'm not operating on the assumption that I know what "love" is -- or that the other person knows, either.
Zen Arado: Hi San :)
Santoshima Resident: :)
Zon Kwan: intellectually thinking there is no love
Zon Kwan: no love in logic
Bruce Mowbray: It seems far easier -- and more practical, actually - for me to BE love than to be IN love.
Korel Laloix: Yes.. but why look at it practically?
Korel Laloix: Boooorrrriiiinnngggggg
Zon Kwan: just enjoy love
Zen Arado: to me it is a kind of illusion where we wrap a person in a kind of magic and it is needed to keep us around long enough to rear a child
Korel Laloix: When you are in love.. you get the rush and the passion and the smiles and the heartbeats and the hurts...
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Zen on most of that -- and agrees with Kori, too.
Korel Laloix: All sooooo worth it.
Zen Arado: evolutionary psychologists say that
Zon Kwan: that's biological
Zen Arado: EO Wilson I think
Bruce Mowbray: Can't one do all of those things in a couple of hours, though?
Bruce Mowbray: or less?
Zon Kwan: love is not only biological
Zon Kwan: it is existential
Zen Arado: it's looking after a child that can be a lot of work and we need something to make us put up with that
Zen Arado: it's just a theory
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Zon that love is existential -- that's why I say it is easier for me to BE love than to be IN love.
Zon Kwan: love is not intellectual
Zen Arado: I think it was supposed to last 4 years only
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Zen Arado: oh it fooled the intellect alright
Korel Laloix: I think it is very much an intellectual thing.
Bruce Mowbray does not regard BEING love as an intellectual activity.
Zen Arado: we pick partners that are so incompatible and everyone sees it except us
Zon Kwan: not at all, korel
Zon Kwan: are you saying, Zen, that love is mental disturbance ?
Bruce Mowbray ponders "the divine madness."
Zen Arado: some kind of fooling the rational sense I think
Korel Laloix: For me, I have to know and respect the person I love in a romantic sense.
Zon Kwan: we only live to be loved
Korel Laloix: So that is an intellectual call.
Zon Kwan: everyone needs it
Zen Arado: but we can overlook a whole heap of faults
Zen Arado: they only show up after initial dizziness has died away
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: True... and it is a good thing that we look at people as more than one dimensional.
Bruce Mowbray: so, love is blind?
Zon Kwan: no

--BELL--

Zen Arado: heh yes the old saying
Zon Kwan: lovelessness is blind
Zon Kwan: without love there is only selfishness
Korel Laloix: And people really mix up love and lust.
Zon Kwan: and depressing life
Zen Arado: we are talking of Eros, romantic love though?
Zon Kwan: not me
Zen Arado: not Agape, philia..what's the other one?
Zen Arado: wb Eliza
Zon Kwan: all three are forms of love
Eliza Madrigal: ty, sorry for disruption with blinking off n on
Bruce Mowbray: wb, Eliza!
Zon Kwan: even when lion eats its prey it does it out of love
Bruce Mowbray: Sry you're having tech troubles today, Eliza.
Zen Arado: np Eliza
Santoshima Resident: thank you all, bye for now
Qt Core: Bye San
Eliza Madrigal waves
Zen Arado: bye San
Zon Kwan: waves too
Korel Laloix: ciao
Zen Arado: bye Zon
Korel Laloix: ciao
Bruce Mowbray: bye, Zon and San!
Bruce Mowbray: Thanks for your input, Zon!
Eliza Madrigal waves to Zon... a bit disappointedly because there was a Rumi I was looking for... along the lines of his lion thought
Bruce Mowbray: Not to be tiresome, now, but I still don't understand whether we "discover" love or whether we "invent" it -- according to our moods, passions, etc...
Zen Arado: who knows
Korel Laloix: I think the basics are there as instincts.
Eliza Madrigal: Does anything stop us from re-inventing in our time?
Zen Arado: a mixture
Bruce Mowbray: So, "love" is a "natural event" -- an instinctual event?
Korel Laloix: I think it is on some levels
Bruce Mowbray: Good question, Eliza!
Zen Arado: is infatuation love?
Bruce Mowbray: like re-inventing mathematics . . . . in our time?
Eliza Madrigal: oooh Bruce, hah
Bruce Mowbray: That's part of the reason for my asking, Zen. . .
Eliza Madrigal: "new math"
Bruce Mowbray: instinctual (discovered) or [re]invented? and then what would love be?
Eliza Madrigal: someone devoted to Math can be more creative with it than someone dabbling
Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
Bruce Mowbray: same with love, though?
Zen Arado: it's a mystery
Bruce Mowbray: Everything is a mystery.
Zen Arado: yeh
Bruce Mowbray: That's why I'm asking questions.  ;-)
Bruce Mowbray: Thought some of you might have penetrated the mystery farther than I've been able to.
Zen Arado: maybe we try to define the indefinable
Zen Arado: total mystery to me
Eliza Madrigal: if two people are in love with say... Math, then those two people may be able to tap something together that someone not loving Math may not be able to enjoy with them
Bruce Mowbray: If love is so in-definable, how come there are so many who think they know what it is? -- and how they "know" when they feel it or see it?
Bruce Mowbray: So, love might be a shared passion for something - a passion other than the two people for each other -  Eliza?
Zen Arado: loving is perhaps generated from the total package we are of interests and talents etc
Eliza Madrigal: I think so Bruce
Bruce Mowbray: kk, ty!
Zen Arado: so we naturally love some things
Zen Arado: if you have a gift for math, say, you will love it
Bruce Mowbray: ahhh.... "Naturally" -- suggesting that love is something natural that we discover... something already there -- waiting to be discovered by us!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: natural affinities
Bruce Mowbray: Hmmmm.
Eliza Madrigal: maybe we tune to what we're particularly looking to experience, so that's why people can say "oh this is what love is"?
Zen Arado: I don't like mountain climbing
Zen Arado: not very strange
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: OK, then, is "Love" also, perhaps, what we naturally ARE? --- not just what we naturally DO?
Zen Arado: but what makes us tune in?
Zen Arado: the way we are already?
Bruce Mowbray: yes, that's what I mean. -- that "natural" tuning-in.
Zen Arado: yes
Bruce Mowbray agrees with Zen, once again.
Zen Arado: we will be attracted to people who share interests too

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray listens for more.
Zen Arado: or what would we talk about?
Zen Arado: though opposites attract they say
Zen Arado: but not sure that lasts
Bruce Mowbray: My parents were "LOCKED" into a sad marriage -- like being locked in a cage. . . . Was that my model for love?
Zen Arado: a bad model
Bruce Mowbray: They only remained married because they HAD to -- not because either of them wanted to.
Bruce Mowbray: So, their three children learned THAT as a model for marriage...?
Bruce Mowbray: (or did we?)
Zen Arado: some are afraid to make the move to singleness
Zen Arado: afraid of loneliness
Zen Arado: ?
Bruce Mowbray: I think they only stayed married "for the kids."  (olden days, you know...)
Eliza Madrigal: well, the vows of marriage do imply being locked in
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: true Eliza
Bruce Mowbray: indeed.
Zen Arado: for better or for worse
Bruce Mowbray: (Definitely for worse, in my parents' case.)
Zen Arado: it is a fearful commitment when you think of it
Bruce Mowbray: Indeed it is that, Zen.
Zen Arado: I think most don't really assent to that
Bruce Mowbray: So, we can re-inventing love?  Something we CAN assent to?
Zen Arado: especially nowadays when people live so long
Bruce Mowbray: Reinventing marriage, also?
Zen Arado: some say marriage is outdated
Zen Arado: it was for times when people died younger
Bruce Mowbray: I would like to marry a tree. . . or a river . . . or perhaps a meadow.
Eliza Madrigal: it is supposed to be a fearful commitment, though, because marriage was tied into larger commitments of the families and survival of alliances
Zen Arado: and we don't have so many children
Bruce Mowbray: So, these traditional models are ones that we learn -- not ones that we discover (in nature, I mean.)?
Zen Arado: people change so much as they grow older
Eliza Madrigal: I find it hard to discuss in short chat lines, hah
Zen Arado: they are part of our culture
Bruce Mowbray: ;-) sry about that, Eliza!
Zen Arado: values instilled in us
Zen Arado: yet you like Twitter :)
Zen Arado: and I don't :)
Bruce Mowbray has never tweeted....
Eliza Madrigal: actually I don't tweet much either
Zen Arado: feel free to insert longer passages Eliza
Bruce Mowbray is a virgin non-tweeter, as it were.
Eliza Madrigal: but it is this topic... it has many depths and dimensions
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, please do say all you wish to, Eliza.
Zen Arado: yes
Korel Laloix: you have to say you are not a twit... smiles
Eliza Madrigal: lol
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Korel Laloix: I'm not a twit either.
 Bruce Mowbray: I'm probably a twit -- just not a tweeter.
Eliza Madrigal: people who really use twitter in a focused way get a lot from it
Bruce Mowbray: ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: aw Kori :)
Bruce Mowbray: and revolutions can be born through tweets.
Zen Arado: I know Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: I just can't afford to dedicate that sort of attention right now... if I had a blog I'd definitely do it more
Zen Arado: just not my preference
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Bruce Mowbray: I don't do Facebook either, though.
Bruce Mowbray: nor do I blog...
Zen Arado: oh really?
Bruce Mowbray: (I'm virtually illiterate! yeppers.)
Eliza Madrigal grins
Zen Arado: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: I was off FB for a month and think I broke the addiction
Bruce Mowbray: Great!
Eliza Madrigal: but sorry to get us off track from the complex topic :)
Zen Arado: we are relatively with it for our age Bruce
Zen Arado: :)
Bruce Mowbray: such a time-waster FB can become....
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Korel Laloix: myspace got me in real trouble a while back.. so I avoid things like that now.
Korel Laloix: I do have a myspace, but only because there are some things that I follow are on it.
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevie :)
Zen Arado: Hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Qt Core: hi steve
Bruce Mowbray: For myself, it is "enough" to Be love. . . although I don't want that to replace being loving (in actions) as well.
Bruce Mowbray: Hello, Steve.
stevenaia Michinaga: just in time for snow here
Bruce Mowbray: been snowing all day here -- but just wee little flakes.
Zen Arado: pity I couldn't have had a life married and an alternative single life to compare them
Eliza Madrigal: "it is enough to be love" -- really like that. "others" though, show us what that means, challenge our capacities
Zen Arado: but we adapt to what life brings anyway
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: I would be a different person if I had gotten married
Bruce Mowbray ponders "Love it the way it is."
Zen Arado: maybe I wouldn't be here talking about it
Eliza Madrigal: how can you be sure Zen?
Zen Arado: I have a RL friends whose wife doesn't allow him to go onto SL
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: oh I'm not sure at all
Zen Arado: he might pick up another woman
Eliza Madrigal: I'm glad I married

--BELL--

Bruce Mowbray: Marriage definitely changed me, that's for sure. I knew immediately that something was vastly different -- different from just living with that person, as we had done for almost three years before she and I married.
Eliza Madrigal: something shifted Bruce?
Zen Arado: whatever happened was what happened and perfect
Bruce Mowbray: Yes, shifted is a perfect term for it.
Bruce Mowbray: shifted -- and perhaps also perfect.
Eliza Madrigal needs a stronger word than yes
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: my life is perfectly what it is
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, a little simple acceptance helps
Zen Arado: has taken me most of it to realize that though
Bruce Mowbray: Like Eliza, I am glad that I married . . . although divorcing was the most painful experience of my entire life.
Bruce Mowbray: me too, Zen.
Eliza Madrigal: (((Bruce))))
Zen Arado: if things had worked that way, I would have married too
Bruce Mowbray: ((((Eliza - - and EVERYONE)))) --- group hug!
Zen Arado: I didn't make a choice not to
Bruce Mowbray: I really need to be going now. but will look forward to reading the remainder of this discussion.
Zen Arado: it just never happened
Eliza Madrigal: thanks Bruce, enjoy the evening :)
Bruce Mowbray: May you all love and be loved -- however you understand that -- (or don't understand it).
Qt Core: bye Bruce
Zen Arado: heh will need some stuff censored tonight again maybe
Zen Arado: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: looking back, the path to "perfection" is always amazing
Zen Arado: Byee Bruce
Korel Laloix: CIAO
Bruce Mowbray: Bye for now, good people.
Eliza Madrigal giggles and picks up the second tab "don't understand" lol
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Bruce
Eliza Madrigal: hindsight Stevie?
stevenaia Michinaga: a bit, there would be no way for someone to have constructed such a path that results in the present perfect situation
stevenaia Michinaga: even if it was made up of all the past situations, which may have been equally perfect
Eliza Madrigal: so it is when we're dis-integrated that we can't see the perfection?
stevenaia Michinaga: "dis-integrated "?
Eliza Madrigal: looking back from integration we can see the sense.. though, I suppose some do have regrets and think of things they'd change
Zen Arado: I think we get conditioned into believing that our lives are no good unless they follow a certain path
Zen Arado: in my youth marriage and kids was the only real way to happiness
stevenaia Michinaga: who could have charted a path to SL and PaB 10 years ago
Zen Arado: or seen that way by most
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't want to be married... both my parents were married 5 times each :)
Zen Arado: remember when women were so afraid of being left on the shelf'
stevenaia Michinaga: quite a family of steps you must have Eliza
Zen Arado: gosh
Eliza Madrigal: it was quite a way to grow up...
Eliza Madrigal: just with my mom
Eliza Madrigal: and sister
Zen Arado: my parents were happily married for over 50 years
Eliza Madrigal: nice, Zen
Zen Arado: until death
Eliza Madrigal: I married someone whose parents had been married 25 years already, and their siblings, and their parents... no culture of divorce
Zen Arado: my grandparents too I remember
Eliza Madrigal: I wasn't arrogant enough to think that it was going to be easy or that I had the skills
Eliza Madrigal: but I thought just plugging into that system would help, lol
Zen Arado: perhaps you didn't have good role models, then, Eliza?
Eliza Madrigal: for sure I didn't in that sense... quite "dysfunctional" but you know... it wasn't so simple either... there were kinds of love we had that the other family didn't
stevenaia Michinaga: it can be difficult for two people to find each other that are equally accepting of each other and still remain happily independent
Zen Arado: they often say that a stable marriage is best for kids
stevenaia Michinaga: so when you do find that, it can last
Zen Arado: but I read something interesting in 'The Ethical Slut' about that
Eliza Madrigal: that's an interesting angle stevie... do think that is necessary... mutual support and deep acceptance
Eliza Madrigal: well economically it is hard to build stability if people start over a lot
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Cat :)
Zen Arado: couples who give each other space
stevenaia Michinaga: support in acceptance of the other's need for independence and reliance (love)
Qt Core: Hi Cat
Zen Arado: Hi Cat ;)
Eliza Madrigal: we're talking about marriage and love... still ^.^
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi could use some love talk :)
Eliza Madrigal: ::::love love love talk talk talk::::
Eliza Madrigal giggles
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: back to the ethical slut... listens
Zen Arado: talking is all I can do ;)

--BELL--

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Cat
Zen Arado: it was just that in polyamourous relationships having a few different fathers around might not be so bad for kids
Eliza Madrigal: wb Kori
Zen Arado: they could teach the child different things
Zen Arado: one could take them to sports events
Zen Arado: another teach them about books
stevenaia Michinaga: no one person can be everything to someone else
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: they would have a wider range of background help in life
Eliza Madrigal: if adults were more able to communicate kids would prob have more resources in their lives generally
Qt Core: i need to go bye all
Zen Arado: yes and some fathers aren't seen much by their children
Eliza Madrigal: bye Qt :)
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Qt
Zen Arado: too busy for them
Catrinamonblue Resident: bye Qt
Zen Arado: byee Qt
Eliza Madrigal: I grew up without my father
Eliza Madrigal: have felt very grateful my kids have not
Catrinamonblue Resident: I grew up with abusive parents
Zen Arado: Hi Druth
Eliza Madrigal: both abusive Cat?
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth
druth Vlodovic: hi guys
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Eliza Madrigal: (if anyone wants to turn off the log we can do so or ask Bruce to edit)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I'm ok wit it :)
Zen Arado: ok so far
Catrinamonblue Resident: I don't mind talking about my past so much now after much therapy :)
Eliza Madrigal: okay just checking - I rarely talk so personally but lately feel we all need the support :)
Zen Arado: but can delete if you want to Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: we're okay so far, agree :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Ari
druth Vlodovic: hugs ari
Arisia Vita: greetings all
Zen Arado: welcome Ari
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Ari
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Druth
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Ari
Catrinamonblue Resident: My kids are lucky as society has changed much since I was a kid there really is a lot more support for them than there was for me
druth Vlodovic: attitudes, approaches, understandings
Zen Arado: parents had more time when I was a kid though
Catrinamonblue Resident: time doesn't matter
Eliza Madrigal: kids and parents may have had more "free time"
Zen Arado: my mother didn't work until I was around 12
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's what you do with the time you have that does
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's communication
Zen Arado: maybe
Catrinamonblue Resident: and letting them know they are loved no matter what
Eliza Madrigal: I was left on my own *a lot* and there were benefits to that
Zen Arado: my mother just sent us out to play
Catrinamonblue Resident: no matter what they do you will be there for them
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes I was locked out of the house to play
Zen Arado: we got a lot of criticism
Zen Arado: not much support
Catrinamonblue Resident: that is the thing, Zen, it's the support that matters
Catrinamonblue Resident: not the time
Zen Arado: kids were just kids
Eliza Madrigal: did anyone watch the video oO0Oo sent a while ago... the discussion of gay marriage? It was interesting because one person was saying that heterosexuals are running from marriage and therefore the integrity of marriage depends gay marriage :))
Zen Arado: forgot to watch
Eliza Madrigal: I'd never thought of it that way.... speaking of reinvention in our time (discussion from earlier)
Zen Arado: interesting point
druth Vlodovic: a different approach to humanity as well
Eliza Madrigal: indeed
druth Vlodovic: valuing people and their judgement from a young age
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
druth Vlodovic: seeing people as people and not titles and positions
druth Vlodovic: I find it incredible some of the things we are opening our eyes to which were sacrilegious to our parents
Zen Arado: it was all negative..just getting beaten if you didn't behave
Zen Arado: but never any praise
druth Vlodovic: like the ability of infants to feel pain
Eliza Madrigal: me too Druth, sometimes it seems amazing and sometimes ridiculously slow
druth Vlodovic: and harshness as the tonic for bad bahaviour
Eliza Madrigal: if I didn't come in on time "Lerose" was called from the trees to "get me"
Eliza Madrigal: lots of psychological tricks in my childhood I'd never dream of doing to my kids
Catrinamonblue Resident: same here Eliza
Zen Arado: it's funny but in N.Ireland there seemed to be a fear of kids getting too big headed about themselves

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: based on keeping kids safe in some weird way... there wasn't much idea about psychological health?
Zen Arado: aw.. my parents weren't so bad..they just copied the behaviour of everyone else
Catrinamonblue Resident: maybe but that doesn't excuse abuse
druth Vlodovic: "stick your neck out and it's sure to be chopped off."
druth Vlodovic: maybe not bad advice in a violent society based on pride
druth Vlodovic: or staunch beliefs
Eliza Madrigal: nothing excuses abuse but when we get a glimpse of where it started, ie usually not with "our" parents but things before them, it is easier to forgive and let go?
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: and I have let go of a lot of it
Eliza Madrigal: me too, I think :)
Zen Arado: passes down the generations
Catrinamonblue Resident: understanding why they are the way they are helps
Eliza Madrigal nods
Catrinamonblue Resident: but I do feel
Catrinamonblue Resident: that there comes a point where they need to take responsibility for themselves and make changes
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: one would hope, but we all have our own ways
Catrinamonblue Resident: if they can not, then you need to let go the relationship
Zen Arado: do kids take longer to grow up nowadays?
Eliza Madrigal: I'm trying to do that now, really listen to my kids... though I can't /won't change everything they might like me too
Zen Arado: my niece's son is 18 and seems like a kid to me
druth Vlodovic: depends on your definition of growing up, and why you think it is necessary
Zen Arado: and I went to Australia on my own at that age
Eliza Madrigal: I think that's so, Zen
Catrinamonblue Resident: maybe we are more cautious as parents these days
Zen Arado: but I started work at 15
stevenaia Michinaga: mine just said bye and waved... from his first bus ride to kindergarten until he drove west
stevenaia Michinaga: at 20
Eliza Madrigal: even professors have written about how odd that kids in college are texting their parents all day
druth Vlodovic: lol,I never worried about my kids liking me, I just did the best I could for them and hoped they'd be good people
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
druth Vlodovic: good
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: perhaps we are seeing a return to family focus
Zen Arado: it's all you can do
druth Vlodovic: instead of dependence upon institutions and banks
Zen Arado: (says he knowing nothing about parenting)
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: me either... jury is out
druth Vlodovic: oh,you've had a good share of it from one angle :)
Zen Arado: I guess
druth Vlodovic: too much "independence" is really sapping our ability to keep governments and institutions in line
druth Vlodovic: look at any country with large connected families, like Mexico
Zen Arado: how do you mean Druth?
druth Vlodovic: push them around they quit
Eliza Madrigal: oh, I see
druth Vlodovic: and several of their siblings support them
druth Vlodovic: or 20 of them move into a house and soon they own it instead of the bank
Eliza Madrigal: yes intertwined... many families here that way- they think as a whole
Eliza Madrigal: and therefore are able to build businesses together
druth Vlodovic: this is the practical result of the theory we were discussing
Zen Arado: the nuclear family?
Eliza Madrigal: my good friend's brother just died... leaving 4 kids behind... family absorbed them completely - they are "everyone's kids"
Catrinamonblue Resident: awesome :)
Eliza Madrigal: horrible to lose a parent but they didn't lose the ground beneath their feet
Zen Arado: that wouldn't happen here I think
Zen Arado: they would expect the state to look after them
Zen Arado: same as when you are disabled
druth Vlodovic: or be fearful of the consequences of taking on the responsibility
Zen Arado: or old
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: what would economics look like in a poly-amorous family?
Zen Arado: just push you into a nursing home
Eliza Madrigal: too late for most of us to go back and have a different kind of family of origin :)
Zen Arado: complicated I think ;)
Zen Arado: a rich father could help financially
Zen Arado: while another might have other supportive gifts
Eliza Madrigal: or mother, ahem

--BELL--

Zen Arado: oh yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: the past is the past, I'm grateful for it as it has shaped who I am today and I try each day to learn and grow so as not to repeat past mistakes
Zen Arado: one mother could be into fashion
Eliza Madrigal: that's kind of a utilitarian view though Zen?
Zen Arado: another ..cooking
Zen Arado: but a richness don't you think?
Eliza Madrigal: as an idea maybe... communal idea
Zen Arado: and other less obvious things
Zen Arado: just using obvious examples
druth Vlodovic: what is wrong with utilitarian?
Eliza Madrigal: people in any situation may not get to change as they like... keep pace
Catrinamonblue Resident: emotions don't answer to utilitarian
Eliza Madrigal nods Cat
Zen Arado: one mother flighty..another solid and practical
druth Vlodovic: I took a utilitarian view of child rearing, I am here to raise them to be adults, and to teach them the skills they need to be good people, not to enjoy myself or "receive love" (though I do)
Eliza Madrigal is sometimes flighty and sometimes solid and practical :P
Zen Arado: :)
Zen Arado: an all-rounder Mom
Catrinamonblue Resident: you gave them love though by listening to them as people
Zen Arado: a good listener is great
Eliza Madrigal: they are still young?
Eliza Madrigal: or grown?
Catrinamonblue Resident: teenagers :)
Zen Arado: my parents didn't listen to our 'childish babble'
druth Vlodovic: children to zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: "to be seen and not heard"
Eliza Madrigal: if teenagers I guess you have a pretty good idea of how its gone :)
druth Vlodovic: growing at their own pace, as always, amazing how much stress you avoid by listening and allowing
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: I wouldn't change the situation I came from either, honestly
Zen Arado: a lot of luck involved too maybe
Eliza Madrigal: there is deep love that's come out of sometimes rather horrible situations
Zen Arado: so easy for them to get into drugs etc
druth Vlodovic: they have good genetics
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes Eliza :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: and yes Druth ;)
Eliza Madrigal: not quite being born from a lotus, but pretty nice...
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: :)
Eliza Madrigal: its crazy but I'll probably get married again one day too, hah...
Catrinamonblue Resident: keyboard issues sry
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: it will find you when you are ready
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
druth Vlodovic: maybe a bunch of times...
druth Vlodovic: are you seeking a commune?
Zen Arado: it seems so easy to find the right person for people
Eliza Madrigal: I'm not... can't believe in that really -  have never seen anyone happy that way
druth Vlodovic: oops, Eliza and Zen can join a poly commune together, save on housework
Eliza Madrigal laughs
Zen Arado: I see people get divorced and a year later are married again
Eliza Madrigal: when it comes down to it, I'm not evolved enough not to be jealous
Zen Arado: I find that so amazing
Catrinamonblue Resident: same here Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: well I saw with my mom... she wasn't raised to be alone at all
Zen Arado: yeh I couldn't do poly
Eliza Madrigal: so she was married again and again
Zen Arado: wouldn't have the energy either
Eliza Madrigal: and attracted to the same sort of persons... intense, possessive
Catrinamonblue Resident: my mother just had boyfriends :) easier to get rid of them
stevenaia Michinaga: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: she's happy now though
Eliza Madrigal: with a much simpler life than she'd ever wanted
Eliza Madrigal: 5th time a charm
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: that's great for her Eliza :) wish my mother could be happy
druth Vlodovic: seeking happiness through others seems the basis of a lot of unhappiness
Eliza Madrigal: some are restless... ever see the film... hm, remembering the name...
Zen Arado: agree Druth
Eliza Madrigal agrees too, basically
Zen Arado: is there an opposite to that too though?
Zen Arado: avoiding marriage?
Eliza Madrigal: well it doesn't apply (the film) nevermind... but there was a restless character... no matter how good things were there came a desire to move on
Eliza Madrigal: people don't have to get married... some have long time commitments without that
Eliza Madrigal: open doors
Zen Arado: I'm like that I think
Eliza Madrigal: so with relationships like activities Zen?
Catrinamonblue Resident: whether you marry or not happiness comes from within yourself I think
Zen Arado: I move from one thing to the next
Eliza Madrigal: books :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes Cat
Zen Arado: not sure about relationships
druth Vlodovic: of course, (just to make sure i am disagreeing with people) you have to seek others a bit,to be happy
Zen Arado: I usually get left behind in those
Zen Arado: :(
Eliza Madrigal: aw
Eliza Madrigal: two years ago I would have said it was all about we with ourselves, but now I lean toward what you just wrote Druth
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes but to base your happiness completely on another person creates unrealistic expectations that are bound to fail and therefore cause you unhappiness
Zen Arado: but I wonder if I had got married to a little Belfast woman in my early twenties what would be the outcome?
druth Vlodovic: just relying on them to produce "I know not what" frustrates and confuses everyone
Eliza Madrigal: :) what about a wild Australian Zen?
druth Vlodovic: do they come with a guarantee Zen?
Zen Arado: that would have been disastrous
Eliza Madrigal giggles
stevenaia Michinaga: I must go, night all
Zen Arado: would have been stuck there
Eliza Madrigal: Night Stevie
Catrinamonblue Resident: I think the base of your happiness should be within yourself but yes you can turn to others for companionship within happiness
Zen Arado: byee Steve
druth Vlodovic: 'night 'naia
Catrinamonblue Resident: Night Steve :)
Eliza Madrigal: not necessarily... but I can see how it would seem so
Eliza Madrigal: (re stuck)
Zen Arado: Australians would not like N.Ireland most of them
Zen Arado: knew guys had that problem
Eliza Madrigal: they would have to live there?
Zen Arado: they brought them to UK but they wouldn't stay there
druth Vlodovic: you could live together in Madagascar
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: (was thinking of Legends of the Fall earlier)
Zen Arado: never thought of Madagascar
Eliza Madrigal: I should go... meeting a friend in a bit and have to drive across town
Zen Arado: it has great biodiversity though :)
druth Vlodovic: have fun Eliza
Zen Arado: getting late for me too
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Eliza have a fun time :)
Eliza Madrigal: we'll prob have a discussion a bit like this one, lol
druth Vlodovic: biodiversity is important to any marriage
Arisia Vita: sounds like closing time at PaB :)
Eliza Madrigal: anyway.... was lovely chatting
Zen Arado: have a nice discussion
Arisia Vita: it was great being with you all
Eliza Madrigal: *thank you*
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Zen, Ari :)
Zen Arado: thanks everyone
druth Vlodovic: scattering to the winds
Zen Arado: byee
Arisia Vita: be well and happy
druth Vlodovic: bye scatterers
Arisia Vita: you two have fun
druth Vlodovic: sure thang :)