2013.03.16 01:00 - Altruism and self

Wol Euler was guardian for this session.

Wol Euler: good morning, zon
Zon Kwan: hi wol
Zon Kwan: good day ?
Wol Euler: just got out of bed ten minutes ago :) so far, pretty good
Wol Euler: haven't had breakfast, nor coffee; haven't even been to the bathroom yet :)
Zon Kwan: then you are fresh and open for the day
Zon Kwan: hi bert
Wol Euler: hallo berti
Bertram Jacobus: rezzing ... hi zon and woly ! :-)
Wol Euler: how are you, zon?
Zon Kwan: very good
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: I'm glad to hear that
Zon Kwan: lovely morning..no work today
Wol Euler: veyr good!
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. sounds great. same here ... :-)
Zon Kwan: just going to listen life today
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: what an excellent plan!
Zon Kwan: yes, it has so much to tell us
Bertram Jacobus hears virtual birds and water ... :-)
Bertram Jacobus: und heuschrecken *g*
Wol Euler hears real birds and real traffic, which is almost like water
Zon Kwan: every moment something happening
Bertram Jacobus agrees
Wol Euler: "Cars hiss by my window, like the waves down on the beach" as Jim Morrison said
Wol Euler: how are you, bertram?
Bertram Jacobus: similar to zon woly - ty for asking - how are you !? :-)
Bertram Jacobus: or similar as ?
Wol Euler: similar to
Bertram Jacobus: ty ! :-)
Wol Euler: same as
Wol Euler: different from
Wol Euler smiles.
Bertram Jacobus: ah. okay. whether i will hold that in my mind, in my memory ? .......
Wol Euler: doesn't matter :) people will understand
Bertram Jacobus: kind ... :-)
Wol Euler: but since you asked ....
Bertram Jacobus: yes ! :-)
Wol Euler: I'm cheerful, and stuffed up with a bit of a head cold
Bertram Jacobus: i love to learn !
Bertram Jacobus: interesting combination ... :-)
Wol Euler: heheheh
Wol Euler: I'm not going to let a cold stop me enjoying life, though it might keep me indoors

--BELL--

Wol Euler: a funny thing happened just then
Wol Euler: I asked Zon how he was today, then thought that for him it's still Friday
Wol Euler: so "of course" he wouldn't be any different than he was last night (my time)
Wol Euler: meaning: that people's feeling and position in the world only changes overnight :)
Wol Euler: what a strange idea
Bertram Jacobus: yesterday, you said, woly, one of the sentences - i´m not sure, which one it was / is - we wrote, you would like to discuss a bit more ...
Bertram Jacobus: *smile* ...
Wol Euler: oh yes, let me check what that was
Bertram Jacobus: but i like to say that a friend will come in around half an hour (estimated) - then i must leave - log off ...
Bertram Jacobus: and, "by the way" : your hint referring to my touchpad settings seem have to been helpful ! i was successful in finding, where to change that and it looks like as those problems are solved now, after four or five years or so having lived with them (!!) :-))
Bertram Jacobus: so a BIG thank you to you woly !! :-))
Wol Euler: ah, good! glad to have helped
Wol Euler: Bertram Jacobus: sure i do. but altruism brings closer to enlightenment as egoism ...
Wol Euler: that is probably what I meant
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. i guessed that is was / is that sentence - but i wanted to be sure ... :-)
Wol Euler: Wol Euler: because while I do agree, I think it is wrong :)
Bertram Jacobus: what means in this context please "while i agree" ?
Wol Euler: I wish I had written down what I meant, because I am now not sure
Wol Euler: obwohl ich das zustimme, halte ich es für falsch
Bertram Jacobus: oops - that looks like a contradiction to me (?)
Wol Euler: or "auch für falsch"
Wol Euler: both true and false
Wol Euler: let me try to figure out what I meant
Bertram Jacobus: yes pls :-)
Zon Kwan: loves the idea of being both true and false
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: I think what I was objecting to was actually a few lines earlier
Wol Euler: Bertram Jacobus: dear wol - that was a reminder : i should give some aufmerksamkeit to ma gf now ... Wol Euler smiles. Wol Euler: your good deed for the day Bertram Jacobus: so - i´ll leave for now - hehe Wol Euler: take care, be happy and not-greedy Bertram Jacobus: ah - noooo - that is very much for me as well - should be even more altruistic i feel Wol Euler smiles. Wol Euler: why? do you not deserve nice things too?
Wol Euler: the idea that a deed is less good if I benefit from it too seems unnecessarily harsh to me
Wol Euler: must we make our lives flat and ugly and unhappy?
Zon Kwan: nods
Bertram Jacobus: not at all
Bertram Jacobus: but the ego is no friend, it is an enemy
Wol Euler: so we should avoid things htat please it?
Wol Euler: and leave our lives flat and ugly and unhappy?
Zon Kwan: enemy ?
Bertram Jacobus: let me think, how to express it in the to me foreign language - double challenge ... ;-)
Zon Kwan: enemy is something i reject
Wol Euler: if you get really stuck say it in German and I'll try to translate
Wol Euler: but do try first in English :)
Bertram Jacobus: yes, enemy. because it is separation and separation is suffering. altruism is joining and joining is bliss.
Zon Kwan: thinks gets what wol means
Zon Kwan: thinking something separate is making it separate
Wol Euler: "joining is bliss" is something I'd like to hear proven :)
Zon Kwan: thinking something is enemy creates suffereing

--BELL--

Bertram Jacobus: i always like to use the example of wish and reality : when we wish something, but don´t get it, we are unhappy : separation lets us be unhappy. when we wish something and we get it, we are happy - things came together, wish and reality : bliss ...
Zon Kwan: isnt that desire that brings suffering ?
Wol Euler ponders.
Bertram Jacobus: yes, very much so
Wol Euler: so we come back to altruism and ego. If joining through altruistic act makes me happy, then that devalues the act
Wol Euler: so I should be unhappily altruistic
Wol Euler: which sounds even worse to me, it sounds like a jaded social worker imposing solutions on the world
Zon Kwan: there is no contardiction in taking oneself into account and being altruistic
Zon Kwan: wisely
Bertram Jacobus: i think, you can take a constructive view on the things and a destructive one -
Wol Euler listens.
Zon Kwan: we can't escape being selfish anyhow
Bertram Jacobus: it is like love and hate - normally we know what sould be preferred, which of them helps more
Bertram Jacobus: nothing else is meant by what i wrote -
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: I'm not trying to trap you in a philosophical maze, I'm trying to understand and to see how to apply it
Bertram Jacobus: and as long as we act only on the relative surface, things always are ambivalent and so you can pick the aspects of good or bad from them ...
Wol Euler: and what happens when I do
Zon Kwan: if you dont love yourself how can you love any other being ?
Bertram Jacobus: love should include everything, but not be seperated - even one could say, that separeted love is not really love
Zon Kwan: there is no love without separateness
Wol Euler: I have to agree with zon
Bertram Jacobus: so when you act really altruistic, you are included into the benefit of such deeds
Zon Kwan: yes
Wol Euler: anyone who loves a stranger on a bus, seen once, in the same amount and the same way as her children, is a monster
Wol Euler: IMHO
Zon Kwan: like jesus ?
Bertram Jacobus: ah yes. i don´t agree - i see a holy, enlightened person in such a behaviour
Bertram Jacobus: yes zon - a really good example
Wol Euler: oh she might well be a saint :) agreed on that :) but a lousy *person* and an awful mother
Zon Kwan: lol
Zon Kwan: nods..we all have our roles
Bertram Jacobus: i wouldn´t call an enlightened, holy person a "monster" :o)
Zon Kwan: and we need to express our love accordingly
Wol Euler: monstrous to her children
Wol Euler: which perhaps means that I think children need and deserve special attention, more attention
Zon Kwan: yes if you are a mother
Zon Kwan: no if you are jesus
Wol Euler: let me state for the record, without ambiguity, that I have no wish ever to be jesus, nor even a saint :)
Zon Kwan: lol
Zon Kwan: then love your way and be happy
Wol Euler: I'm trying :)
Bertram Jacobus: i wouldn´t call it like that . it is reported that jesus rejected the wishes of his mother as well. that he did not accept her desired "rights of a mother towards his son" - that is not the reaction of a monster what jesus showed, but the behaviour of a saint, who helps everybody and everywhere without restrictions made from the borders liek "mine" and "close" and such ...
Zon Kwan: im sure jesus would not like you imitating him and neglecting your children

--BELL--

Wol Euler: zon, that is the essence of it. My belief is that somebody who loved her children no more than that stranger on a bus, would neglect them
Wol Euler: because she might love hte stranger in a holy way, but is unlikely to care for him
Zon Kwan: no. it depends on your role
Wol Euler: well, somebody without children does not need to care for children :) that is clear
Bertram Jacobus: and i´m convinced that in everybody is the wish to be happy and to avoid suffering and to fulfill that completely, reaching the goal of being without bounries is nessecairy - on the one hand. on another, for sure boundries exist. but one isn´t stuck to them then anymore
Zon Kwan: nods
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: I'll agree with that
Wol Euler: but then you used the word "wish", which is ego?
Wol Euler: this is where I get confused
Zon Kwan: good question
Zon Kwan: who am I, what is ego ?
Bertram Jacobus: so that is what i meant in the beginning : altruism jumps over such boundries, egoism doesn´t. it's a matter of motivation and should be and make happy. otherwise it´s wrong i would say. whereas sometimes evolving leads through difficult periods ...
Wol Euler ponders
Bertram Jacobus: i like the way to express it, that we are really nothing in the end, finally, essentially
Bertram Jacobus: but the ego doesn´t like that at all ! ;o)
Zon Kwan: the word altruim is not good perhaps
Zon Kwan: more like shifting perspectice
Zon Kwan: to see the big picture
Bertram Jacobus: it comes from alter, altera, alterum, which is latin and means : the other one (other persons) - i find that fitting, logically and correct
Zon Kwan: me and others included
Zon Kwan: acting based on this
Wol Euler nods.
Wol Euler: my original question is why it is bad to enjoy an altruistic act
Bertram Jacobus: ah. that is because a misrelation between egoistic and altruistic behaviour exosts. when we act altruistic, we bring that to an equanimity ...
Zon Kwan: altruism suggest opposition
Wol Euler: so if I enjoy doing something, it is not altruistic?
Bertram Jacobus: it is not bad woly - i never said that
Zon Kwan: not inclusiveness
Bertram Jacobus: no. in contrary : every good deed makes happy
Wol Euler: Bertram Jacobus: ah - noooo - that is very much for me as well - should be even more altruistic i feel
Wol Euler: (said about paying attention to your gf)
Zon Kwan: altruism means living in dualistic idea
Wol Euler: hmmmm, okay, I see, maybe I misunderstood that
Bertram Jacobus: yes . because i saw the egoistic aspect in my behaviour or considered it at least wol
Zon Kwan: me is different form others
Wol Euler: right, gotcha
Bertram Jacobus: it´s both zon : different on the relative level and same on the holistic one
Zon Kwan: i am only altruistic if it makes me feel good
Bertram Jacobus: i´m a bit exhausted now, i hope you excuse ... for i write now perhaps a bit less ... (?) ;-)
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: thinking is hard work, especially in a foreign language
Bertram Jacobus: hehe. yeah, but worth doing it ! and i love it ! but handling the own power potential in a good way ... looks fine as well i find - fee teaches me a bit more to have that in focus, really nice ...
Bertram Jacobus: (fee = my new gf)
Wol Euler smiles.

--BELL--

Zon Kwan: waves, have a lovely all inclusive day :)
Bertram Jacobus: (wow - my friend / visitor not yet here !) ...
Bertram Jacobus: ty same same zon ! :-)
Wol Euler: bye zon
Bertram Jacobus: what will you do today woly ? any plans ? :-)
Wol Euler: shopping, reading, napping, playing in the internet, laundry
Wol Euler: busy day
Wol Euler: and you?
Bertram Jacobus: i love not to have plans. and so there is only one meeting today here in the buddhist center at 3 pm ...
Wol Euler: nice
Bertram Jacobus: really , yes ! i´m very thankful and happy for / about that ! ...
Wol Euler smiles.
Wol Euler: the apartment next door is on the market, there is a stream of people coming to look at it. They mess around with the keys and interrupt me each time

There followed a long IM conversation in German.

--BELL--

Wol Euler: bye bertram, enjoy the day