2013.03.03 07:00 - Dropping, Freedom . . . Thought Experiments?

The Guardian for this meeting was Bleu Oleander. The comments are by Bleu Oleander.

Catrinamonblue Resident: 's current display-name is "Catrinamonblue".
Bleu Oleander: 's current display-name is "Bleu".
Bleu Oleander: morning Cat :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: morning Bleu :)
Bleu Oleander: how are u?
Catrinamonblue Resident: doing well and u?
Bleu Oleander: great, nice day here
--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: have you given any thought to our next Art of Being project?

(a gentle reminder . . . Art of Being Five ... special session Sunday, March 24th at noon slt)

Eliza Madrigal: 's current display-name is "Eliza".
Bleu Oleander: hi Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: hi
Catrinamonblue Resident: I haven't had time unfortunately
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Eliza :)
Bleu Oleander: looking festive in your party pants hehe
Eliza Madrigal: "party pants" sounds pretty festive just by itself
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: five pointed stars... PaB related theme wearing, Bleu?
Bleu Oleander: ha!
Bleu Oleander: hadn't realized that .... but could answer of course :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) well Kira is named from the sound of stars twinkling... "kira kira"
Bleu Oleander: ah ok nice
Bleu Oleander: so I'm very thematic hehe
Eliza Madrigal: my kids are all steampunked today.. going to renn fest - feels like a house of avatars
Bleu Oleander: hehe
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Druth :)
Bleu Oleander: hiya druth
druth Vlodovic: hi guys
Eliza Madrigal: hiya Druth :)
Bleu Oleander: would anyone like to suggest a topic or give an introduction to the topic suggestion for the week?
druth Vlodovic: we could discuss "having topics" but that might get heated :)
Eliza Madrigal: I've attended a lot of sessions this last week... feeling a little overexposed yet, here I am again :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I sometimes fee l the same Eliza, I too have been to a lot of seesions :)
druth Vlodovic: then it was a good topic for you Eliza? or a difficult time?
Eliza Madrigal: good topic
Bleu Oleander: perhaps we feel too limited by the topic suggestions?
druth Vlodovic: I take it back, let's discuss "exposed"
Catrinamonblue Resident: I like the topic suggestions, gives a jumping off point
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aggers :)
Bleu Oleander: topics can feel overworked in a way
druth Vlodovic: as in "being seen exposed"
Agatha Macbeth: G'day mates :)
Bleu Oleander: hey Aggers
druth Vlodovic: hey ags
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Agatha :)
Eliza Madrigal: it can if we don't feel free to step away from them
Bleu Oleander: yes
Bleu Oleander: really just a suggestion, right?
Agatha Macbeth: Who's being exposed? :p
Eliza Madrigal: yes.. somewhere to start from
Agatha Macbeth: (Seems a bit snowy)
--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: I listened to a very interesting conversation ...
Bleu Oleander: http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/15811...7:47&out=40:58

Bleu Oleander: on impicit bias
Bleu Oleander: unconscious prejudices
Eliza Madrigal: these are things to expose?
druth Vlodovic: this is why I prefer to know my prejudices than to eliminate them
Bleu Oleander: seems that explicitly we may have progressive attitudes even if implicitly we may have biases
druth Vlodovic: if you set out to eliminate them then you are damaging your method of living while doing a spiritual search,a bad combination :)
Eliza Madrigal: and also, if setting out to eliminate one might fool themselves into thinking the work is accomplished and perhaps have just suppressed
druth Vlodovic: I am prejudiced towards a liberal attitude in most respects
Bleu Oleander: much of what they talk about is not available to one's introspection
Bleu Oleander: so difficult to know
druth Vlodovic: if you have something to lose then your mind will defend itself in sneakly ways
Bleu Oleander: one of the speakers has a website test that can reveal hidden biases
Bleu Oleander: haven't taken any of the tests yet
Bleu Oleander: but sounded interesting
Agatha Macbeth: The biases we know about are bad enough, without hidden ones!

Bleu Oleander: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/demo/

Eliza Madrigal: is there a categorization of bias, I mean... political, etc?
Bleu Oleander: several categories

Bleu Oleander: https://implicit.harvard.edu/implici...lectatest.html

Eliza Madrigal: others can often see our tendencies and patterns better than we ourselves... like, I'd watch my oldest daughter on a playground find a child who looked nearly like she herself to play with
Bleu Oleander: that's true
Bleu Oleander: we are drawn to those who are most like us
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eliza Madrigal: my younger daughter was the opposite... usually someone different
Eliza Madrigal: even now one of my oldest's closest friends, other friends call her "doppleganger"
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Bleu Oleander: :)
Bleu Oleander: that's a fun word :)
Eliza Madrigal: mhm :)

Bleu Oleander: so relating this to the suggested theme this week, can we drop enough to eliminate our bias and how does that give us freedom?

Eliza Madrigal: skillfull transition Bleu :)
druth Vlodovic: does dropping even eliminate bias? or does it allow inherent bias to come forth?
Bleu Oleander: good question
Eliza Madrigal: very
Bleu Oleander: so do we have to "know" ourselves before we can drop?
Bleu Oleander: and how can that happen?
Eliza Madrigal: lifetimes work
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: so i think before and after breaks down
Bleu Oleander: a process indeed
Catrinamonblue Resident: it's not a matter of telling ourselves we will change but a matter of being aware that change is needed, looking deep within each time we see ourselves showing or acting out what we want to change we take note of the things that brought us there and look for those clues in the future.
Bleu Oleander: the obvious categories can be dropped in theory but does that equate to freedom in any sense?
--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: hmm
Catrinamonblue Resident: freedom to me is just the ability to choose, to choose the way in which I will act or not act. I choose to look at myself and make changes to what I see or what others have pointed out to me and I agree need to be changed.
druth Vlodovic: often a matter of creating new prejudices and training ourselves to be sensitive to them
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Bleu Oleander: what role does culture play?
druth Vlodovic: the fact that we consider prejudice to be wrong or limiting is an artifact of western culture
Agatha Macbeth: A pretty big one in my experience :p
Catrinamonblue Resident: it is the background with which we start but does not mean we are that culture
Bleu Oleander: was thinking about the role Hollywood plays in changing stereotypes ...
Agatha Macbeth: And creating them ? :p
Eliza Madrigal: or perpetuating them
Bleu Oleander: exactly
Eliza Madrigal: :)) yes
Bleu Oleander: television
Agatha Macbeth: I seriously *don't* miss television
Bleu Oleander: we take individual paths through our cultures but hard to escape any influence of our culture
Catrinamonblue Resident: :) neither do I really
Eliza Madrigal is addicted to "Girls" and Downton Abbey
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: strange combo
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Agatha Macbeth: Downton Abbey?
Bleu Oleander: I don't watch TV at all anymore
Agatha Macbeth: Me either
druth Vlodovic: I went through my morals and prejudices a while back,and decided to adopt the ideals I was raised with
Eliza Madrigal: oh, and Charlie Rose... and Mad Men
Catrinamonblue Resident: we got rid of sat over a year ago :)
druth Vlodovic: is that freedom or conditioning?
Bleu Oleander: watch Charlie on the internet
Eliza Madrigal: well.. but it is TV
Bleu Oleander: yes :)
druth Vlodovic: I get annoyed at some of the culturally damaging ideals they promote throughout
Agatha Macbeth: I remember Charlie's angels
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Druth it sounds like you've done a lot of work questioning
Eliza Madrigal: not only dropping, but then further questioning what and why dropped
druth Vlodovic: and what is retained
Eliza Madrigal: I've gone through a similar process with family of origin... not to do things "their way" now, but to relate with them
Bleu Oleander: can we really drop or is it more of a thought experiment?
Eliza Madrigal: and honestly appreciate where they're coming from
druth Vlodovic: we can lay new rails to run on
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: always
Bleu Oleander: implicitly are the old rails still in place though?
Eliza Madrigal: I think it is a thought experiment that allows for actual dropping
Bleu Oleander: how do we know when we have actually dropped?
Eliza Madrigal: the question doesn't really still apply then
druth Vlodovic: the old question "if you had a perfect virtual reality simulation how would you know when it is turned off"
Bleu Oleander: can we trust ourselves to tell us?
druth Vlodovic: by looking around and using your mind :)
Bleu Oleander: easier said than done perhaps hehe
Eliza Madrigal: but that's the thing about conditioning... it IS the way mind is used
druth Vlodovic: and seeing the effects
Eliza Madrigal: "no one can be told what the matrix is" hehe
druth Vlodovic: you might never see the fire but you can see the shadows on the wall alter
Bleu Oleander: so conscious conditioning ... does it reach the unconscious?
druth Vlodovic: eventually
Eliza Madrigal: I think there is a point of exchange, yes
Bleu Oleander: how would we know?
Eliza Madrigal: a flip into openness
druth Vlodovic: you can train your emotions to respond in certain ways to a stimulus
Bleu Oleander: playing devils advocate :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I like analogies of offering... but that is my particular aesthetic or conditioning
Bleu Oleander: "flip into openness" say more?
Zen Arado: 's current display-name is "Zen".
Eliza Madrigal: so... I can purposefully set something out to be taken
Eliza Madrigal: that is my part of dropping... leaving it there
Zen Arado: Hi all
Eliza Madrigal: and not picking it up when I realize I'm reaching for it
Bleu Oleander: hi Zen
druth Vlodovic: hi zen
Agatha Macbeth: Zenny :)
Eliza Madrigal: but then.... whether it is taken or not is "out of my hands"
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
druth Vlodovic: it can be painful when you put an idea out and it gets taken differently than you expected :)
Eliza Madrigal: or, to use infomercial language I "set it and forget it" lol
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Zen
--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: what is an example of the "it" in your abstract scenario Eliza, as in leave "it" there?
Eliza Madrigal: well... an example may be something within myself I have caught sight of...or a pattern
Eliza Madrigal: similar to what Cat said
Bleu Oleander: so something conscious
Eliza Madrigal: well that is the conscious part of it
Zen Arado: what happens to it when you see it?
Eliza Madrigal: often only seen in awareness
Bleu Oleander: so we can only really drop what we are conscious of?
Eliza Madrigal: actualy... there has been a line of discussion too of "seeing is enough"
Eliza Madrigal: that once you've 'really' seen something it unravels itself
Bleu Oleander: yes
Eliza Madrigal: or drops the problematic stuckness part of it
Zen Arado: yeh..it disappears when you see it?
Zen Arado: or you see through it?
Eliza Madrigal nods...or it is just seen through
Eliza Madrigal: without 'you' worrying about it
Bleu Oleander: so exposing things about yourself to yourself?
Zen Arado: exposing the insubstantiality of thoughts and thought patterns
Eliza Madrigal: I'm drawn to the idea that everything is self-liberating in awareness
Zen Arado: yeh
Zen Arado: not something that 'must' be believed
Bleu Oleander: assumes we can bring everything into awareness?
Zen Arado: can be difficult I think
Eliza Madrigal: that if we just stay what is needed will come forward
Bleu Oleander: do u think there are some things we don't have access to?
Zen Arado: isn't that wjat psycho analysis was supposed to do?
druth Vlodovic: "seeing"isn't always enough though, often it needs to be unravelled consciously and replaced or modified through effort
Bleu Oleander: saw a play about Freud last night :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: realizes that I have been doing some of this on an unconscious level and am now becoming conscious of what I am doing
Agatha Macbeth ponders psycho analysis
Zen Arado: maybe techniques tha promote seeing are all that is necessary
Eliza Madrigal nods.... good to have a magic grab bag of approaches maybe
Agatha Macbeth: 'Go in the shower Norman, let's analyse you'
Zen Arado: digging too deep too quick could be bad
druth Vlodovic: shower?
Zen Arado: :)
Bleu Oleander: fair amount of evidence that the unconscious is much bigger than the conscious and perhaps harder to tease out
druth Vlodovic: it would be one's reaction to digging too deep or too fast
Eliza Madrigal: psychoanalysts have wonderful tools to work with, but still quite limited without contemplation I feel
druth Vlodovic: the mind has a cornucopia of defence methods
Eliza Madrigal: and contemplation I see as different than introspection
Eliza Madrigal: true Druth
Bleu Oleander: how is contemplation dif than introspection?
Zen Arado: yeh more like allowing things to float up than going looking for them
Eliza Madrigal: (excuse me a second kids going out the door)
druth Vlodovic: contemplation could include outside effects
Agatha Macbeth: Gotta watch those kids
druth Vlodovic: if i am quite happy with how i am but it causes pain to others then perhaps introspection would not reveal it as negative
Zen Arado: I remember reading about zen retreats where people sit and sob or are traumatized by things coming up in meditation
Zen Arado: but I never saw that
Agatha Macbeth: Can believe that Zen
Santoshima Resident: 's current display-name is "San".
Catrinamonblue Resident: to me contemplation implies working on change and introspection is just looking
Bleu Oleander: ah ok so not talking necessarily about contemplation of self
Zen Arado: Hi San
Bleu Oleander: so in a broad sense one can contemplate anything
Eliza Madrigal: back, apologies
Eliza Madrigal: Hi San
Santoshima Resident: hi zen and everyone
druth Vlodovic: more a focus on the whole situation, to my mind
Bleu Oleander: hi San
Eliza Madrigal: yes Druth
druth Vlodovic: but we are parsing definitions
druth Vlodovic: hi san
Agatha Macbeth: Yo San
Catrinamonblue Resident: HI San
Eliza Madrigal: I think the definitions matter in this case
Eliza Madrigal: in discussions where people get stuck aren't they often talking about "I need this" .. well "I need that" and sometimes the situation on the whole takes a back seat or is invisible
Eliza Madrigal: and that situation can be unpacked perhaps, more and more in a way that makes room
Eliza Madrigal: and includes the individual "I need"s ?
Eliza Madrigal: have seen such things a few times.. not many :)
Zen Arado: agrees
Zen Arado: needs are often assumptions
Zen Arado: conditioned by others
druth Vlodovic: I suspect part of the reason we like doing things with others is that it strengthens out defences, a teacher was telling me that children will commonly have social problems at home that never come out in a group setting
Bleu Oleander: we have some real needs and perhaps other needs that our culture creates and others create for us
Zen Arado: we need food I guess
druth Vlodovic: who we are is often at least partially determined by who is around
Agatha Macbeth: At the end of the day we are all ourself
--BELL--

Bleu Oleander: we are social creatures
Bleu Oleander: thank you all for an interesting conversation ... must go though ... take care and have a wonderful day :)

Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Bleu :)
Agatha Macbeth: Bye Bleu babe
druth Vlodovic: ttfn Bleu
Zen Arado: we don't need as much as we think we do
Zen Arado: bye Bleu
Eliza Madrigal: ty Bleu, lovely day too
druth Vlodovic: I say "I need to change this about myself." but the fact is that I don't, after all I have the problem now and am still alive, so "need" is really "want"
Bleu Oleander: bye bye all
Eliza Madrigal nods Druth... but there is something to, when something comes up, if one then chooses not to see it... then it becomes more problematic
Eliza Madrigal: a need
druth Vlodovic: a damaging habit can be enforced by the mind because the mind wants to live and knows only that it is now alive, and has been for a while
druth Vlodovic: so promoting even damaging habits can be seen as survival tactics
Eliza Madrigal: hierarchy of defenses?
druth Vlodovic: "change is scary"
Catrinamonblue Resident: but necessary
druth Vlodovic: and risky
Santoshima Resident: and inevitable
druth Vlodovic: "better the devil know"
Eliza Madrigal: get tired of the same ol devils ;-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: me too :)
druth Vlodovic: er "the devil I know" hopefully the devil doesn't figure it out until later
druth Vlodovic: so fatigue is an agent of change? :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: it can be
Zen Arado: or pain
Eliza Madrigal: all is
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Zen Arado: or an agent of us accepting change
Catrinamonblue Resident: both
druth Vlodovic: big difference between attempting change and accepting it
Zen Arado: accepting the groundlessness of the human condition
Catrinamonblue Resident: is there
Zen Arado: as Pema Chodron puts it
Catrinamonblue Resident: but do yo not need to make the attempt to make the change?
druth Vlodovic: to attempt change is easy, in whatever gear you can put it in
Zen Arado: that's my koan atm Cat
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes aspiration is as worthy as the thing itself... gesture
Eliza Madrigal: (just my opinion)
druth Vlodovic: but in the end you must accept the change in yourself to avoid changing back to the old habits
Agatha Macbeth: Bye for now
Zen Arado: byee Aga
druth Vlodovic: have fun agg
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Agatha
Santoshima Resident: bye agatha
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now Aggers :)
Eliza Madrigal: "If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you." (gospel of thomas)
Zen Arado: everything will go the way it will
Zen Arado: I was doomed to come here and be influenced by this conversation
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Santoshima Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: the groundlessness of the human condition might be part of the problem
Zen Arado: by a reordering of my thoughts sunsequently
Eliza Madrigal: there is a lot (maybe too much) of effort in that GoT line
druth Vlodovic: since wemust then create our own ground
Eliza Madrigal grins at Zen
Eliza Madrigal: rejoice rejoice we have no choice
Eliza Madrigal: :P
Zen Arado: a long chain of interactins
Zen Arado: and bad typing
druth Vlodovic: and we attempt to "believe in it" ie,have faith in it, for the natural tendency of humans to want predictability and stability
Catrinamonblue Resident: brb
Zen Arado: we want life to be safe solid and secure
Zen Arado: biut it isn't
Santoshima Resident: we?
Zen Arado: most of us?
Eliza Madrigal: I don't think so somehow... it is often our safeties that we're restless from, tired of
druth Vlodovic: humans in general,some people overcome it
Eliza Madrigal: so there seems more to it than that... or another side of the coin
Zen Arado: or maybe some more than others
Zen Arado: some seek novelty and risk it is true
Zen Arado: then they take measures to decrease the risk
Eliza Madrigal: or something 'new' ... the 'next thing'... isn't that what learning is based on
Zen Arado: weird aren't we?
Zen Arado: like F1 racing drivers
druth Vlodovic: humans are a bit contradictory, we want sameness and change, safety and fear, togetherness and solitude
Zen Arado: driving cars at 200 mph
druth Vlodovic: all about balance lol
Zen Arado: and then become concerned when people get killed
druth Vlodovic: with fulcrums defined by us
druth Vlodovic: I was talking to a fellow from India about risks
druth Vlodovic: talking about keeping kids safe from kindergarten teachers
Eliza Madrigal: hm?
druth Vlodovic: and people riding on the roofs of busses
Zen Arado: yeh and trains
Zen Arado: and having 5 people on a motor scooter
druth Vlodovic: each horrifying the other with tales from the homeland :)
--BELL--

druth Vlodovic: he asked me a few times "why do people put up with that?"
Zen Arado: better go
Santoshima Resident: bye zen ~
Zen Arado: ty for conversation
Eliza Madrigal: okay Zen, tc
Zen Arado: byee
Eliza Madrigal: thanks
druth Vlodovic: when i talked about measures to control bullying and pedophilia
druth Vlodovic: it was interesting to see someone with different fulcrums
Eliza Madrigal: helpful to hear form someone in a quite diff context
Eliza Madrigal: from*
druth Vlodovic: things I didn't really regard as mutable
druth Vlodovic: seeing my own prejudices
Eliza Madrigal: but then maybe your prejudices fit the matter but in situation you were in as opposed to the other setting?
Eliza Madrigal: ie, if 'that' was 'here'
druth Vlodovic: frameworks :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: back :)
Eliza Madrigal: wb :)
druth Vlodovic: what Pema called "edges",unless I am misusing his terms again :)
Eliza Madrigal: hah, doubtful you are
druth Vlodovic: but an edge that is unseen
druth Vlodovic: more like a different centre
Eliza Madrigal: I think that's what comes up spontaneously
Eliza Madrigal: you can't plan or account for
Eliza Madrigal: "unseen edge"
druth Vlodovic: most things are defined by their centres :)
druth Vlodovic: philosophers and scientists concern themselves with edges
Eliza Madrigal: maybe the center can take care of itself
druth Vlodovic: maybe the centre is real and the edge imaginary
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: arbitrary
Santoshima Resident: "at the centre is a hole, at the cetnre is a longing that i cannot understand, as a girl on a road" (ferron)
druth Vlodovic: we define cups by shape, then drink champagne out of shoes :)
Eliza Madrigal: nice... yes, ty
Eliza Madrigal: hah.. only on the edges of an evening
Eliza Madrigal: Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!! :D :p :D :p :D
Eliza Madrigal: hah... typed "wee"
Catrinamonblue Resident: how did you do that?!!!!
Eliza Madrigal: "wee edges"
Santoshima Resident: oh that is a riot
Santoshima Resident: wee
Santoshima Resident: hmm
Eliza Madrigal: it is an animation given a relatively long while ago, will share :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :-D
Santoshima Resident: funnee, maybe it will eclipse onigoko
Eliza Madrigal: pretty fun on dance floors
Santoshima Resident: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: ty :)
Eliza Madrigal: guess that isn't a word one types often
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: Toto... I have a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore...
Santoshima Resident: i better go too, sorry to arrive late ... interesting discussion ~ thanks you three!
Eliza Madrigal: bye San, tc
druth Vlodovic: thanks for coming san
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye San
druth Vlodovic: thanks for coming san
Eliza Madrigal: guess I will go too... not sure we discussed "exposure" but its in there somewhere
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: It wsa a lovely talk ty Eliza :)
druth Vlodovic: we expose ourselves here every day
Eliza Madrigal: and anytime I hear the word freedom I hear George Michael singing
Eliza Madrigal: true, that
druth Vlodovic: why we keepcoming back to "do we really need torecord this?"
Eliza Madrigal: could also call it offering :)
druth Vlodovic: lol
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal nods
Eliza Madrigal: another answerless question
druth Vlodovic: I guess a half hour over is a good run for a session
Eliza Madrigal: mhm :) the next is really far away
druth Vlodovic: any more and we'll be exposing ourselves to the next session
Eliza Madrigal: bye for now, nice to see you
druth Vlodovic: ttfn
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
druth Vlodovic: haaaalp!
druth Vlodovic: sticky cushion