2009.04.22 19:00 - Embodiment

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

    Pila Mulligan, buddha Nirvana, Pema Pera and Threedee Shepherd arrived shortly after me.

    Pila Mulligan: hi buddha
    buddha Nirvana: Hey pila:)
    Pila Mulligan: how are you?
    buddha Nirvana: I;m well ty, how are you?
    Pila Mulligan: fine thanks
    buddha Nirvana: have you eaten any hot salad recently:)
    Pila Mulligan: I only tried it the one time, but I told some friends about it when they were visiting last weekend
    buddha Nirvana: :)
    Pila Mulligan: they were not eager to try it :)
    Pila Mulligan: hi Pema
    buddha Nirvana: hi pema:)
    Pema Pera: Hi Pila and Buddha!
    Pila Mulligan: hi steve
    buddha Nirvana: it is good, i have it at;east once a week if i can
    Pema Pera: Hi there, Steve!
    buddha Nirvana: Hi stevenia
    stevenaia Michinaga: hello

    Hot Salads?

    Pila Mulligan: buddha and I were just talking about his predilection for hot salads
    stevenaia Michinaga: a future trend?
    buddha Nirvana: its looking that way
    Pila Mulligan: it is not as bad as it may first seem, I tried it (once:)
    buddha Nirvana: perhaps it was just a matter of time
    Pema Pera: as in grilling the vegetables?
    stevenaia Michinaga: spicy?
    Pila Mulligan: no, nuking the lettuce
    Pila Mulligan: hi Threedee
    buddha Nirvana: i tend to have it with chillies and black grounded pepper
    buddha Nirvana: Hi three
    stevenaia Michinaga: I would enjoy that kind of hot
    Pema Pera: hi Threedee!
    Pila Mulligan: microwave heated lettuce
    Threedee Shepherd: Hi Folks.
    Threedee Shepherd: Saw you duck pun, Pila
    buddha Nirvana: it tastes better than it sounds
    Pila Mulligan: it actually does -- but it sounds awful :)
    Pema Pera: well, worth a try then, I guess :-)
    buddha Nirvana: lol
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    buddha Nirvana: its perhaps like a solid vegetable soup
    buddha Nirvana: semi-solid, anyway
    Pila Mulligan: well,we cook cabbage

    Pila Mulligan brings up a topic from a previous discussion:

    Pila Mulligan: Threedee, a few sessions ago you and Eos both referred to a neuro-phenomenologist (my term) whose name I've forgotten, and someone said Pema knew him as well -- it was _______?
    Threedee Shepherd: Varela


    Pema Pera: He died several years ago, lived in France
    Pila Mulligan: and both you and Eos sang his praises
    Pila Mulligan: 3d
    Threedee Shepherd: indeed
    Pila Mulligan: seems like an interesting chat idea
    Threedee Shepherd: I think I quoted his statement, "All doing is knowing, all knowing is doing."
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: I think I offered to debate that :)
    Pila Mulligan: just for the fun of it
    Pila Mulligan: because it sounds self-contradictory
    Threedee Shepherd: of course, any "bald" statement like that is readily debated. I use it to help people know what I mean by the concept of embodiment
    Threedee Shepherd: embodiment
    Pila Mulligan: can you continue there, then please
    Pila Mulligan: what do you mean by the concept of embodiment?
    Threedee Shepherd: all change in the human involves motion (doing) or the imagination of motion. No change = stasis. Any change involves motion, even a new idea.
    Pila Mulligan: ok, that is easily understood
    Threedee Shepherd: I--my entire mind/brain/body is part of the world and the world is part of me. As in the knower is part of the known, and vice-versa
    buddha Nirvana: so were always doing something
    Pila Mulligan: except when we are in stasis?
    Threedee Shepherd: Knowledge is never abstract is is based in the context of entire body, which itself is always in-relationship with the world
    buddha Nirvana: is stasis possible?
    Threedee Shepherd: Buddha, in an absolute sense, probably not, although a catatonic state gets close
    buddha Nirvana: everything is in constant flux, we know this by the nature of our body...the subtle vibrations
    Threedee Shepherd: yes
    buddha Nirvana: always changing
    Pila Mulligan: well, let's say someone takes a nap on a long flight in an airplane, then they are doing sleeping and they are also being moved (doing moving) but those two ideas do not seem to be entirely equivalent
    Threedee Shepherd: so, I am denying the idea of unembodied, pure knowledge that is somehow "out there" in an abstract sense. This has implications for low, morality and ethics, of course.
    Pila Mulligan: so does emboided here mean the material, physical corpuscular body only?
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh dreaming involves imagined movement. The physical movement caused by the airplane may or may not be significantly perceived
    Threedee Shepherd: I just yesterday learned the derivation of the word aeroplane (airplane)
    Pila Mulligan: :) ...?
    Threedee Shepherd: The Wright's used the term to mean the deformable plane that was part of their flyers wing, that was adjusted to get lift and stability. Indeed it was a physical plane that they could deform.
    buddha Nirvana: so perhaps responsibility is what were discussinG?
    Pila Mulligan: cool
    Threedee Shepherd: we could be buddha. In that sense I am asserting it does not arise as some natural force or "deity-given" law.
    Pema Pera: I didn't know that, Threedee, interesting.
    buddha Nirvana: sure, I'm with you on that
    buddha Nirvana: then we claim full responsibility..
    Threedee Shepherd: I subscribe to American Heritage Invention & Technology magazine. there was an article on the fights over the Wright's patents.
    buddha Nirvana: just touching on what you said about ethics
    Pila Mulligan: excuse me, but lest I forget, I brought Threedee a horrible pun joke a couple of days ago -- it was in the log, did you see it Threedee?
    Pila Mulligan: like a cat brings a dead bird to your door step
    Threedee Shepherd: we have no choice but to have that full responsibility--although many are afraid it could lead to ethical systems that are redefined for convenience sake
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes, I peeked at it
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Pila Mulligan: sorry :)
    Pila Mulligan: does the imagined movement in dreaming count as 'doing' in this context?
    Threedee Shepherd: In a recent book, Owen Flanagan - who calls his philosophy naturalism - argues that the particular set of ethics that is found across a broad sweep of cultures, has been selected for--in terms of natural selection and brain wiring--because it allows a social community to survive better than one without such predispositions
    Threedee Shepherd: Yes Pila
    Pila Mulligan: I agree with the premise that ethics are a survival skill
    buddha Nirvana: is there a status quo in the sweep
    buddha Nirvana: like a 'balance found'
    buddha Nirvana: an 'average' system
    Threedee Shepherd: I would say there are strong commonalities
    Pila Mulligan: e.g., do not kill
    Pila Mulligan: as a standard
    Pila Mulligan: with exceptions
    buddha Nirvana: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: not lying, not cheating, not stealing
    Threedee Shepherd: with exceptions
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    buddha Nirvana: thats interesting, like a sort of scripting.
    buddha Nirvana: /scanning
    Threedee Shepherd: sharing. "playing nice", generosity
    Pila Mulligan: I also agree that change involves motion, what I don't understand is why these ideas require or derive from so expansive a concept of 'doing'?
    Pema Pera: it is a survival skill not to jump off a high cliff -- but that skill then reflects the law of physics. Similarly, ethics may be related to survival skills and yet also reflect something deep underlying that.
    Threedee Shepherd: yes Pema, that is possible and an interesting path of thought
    buddha Nirvana: doing infers 'active'
    buddha Nirvana: while change is possibly a passive thing
    buddha Nirvana: it happens regardless of any intent
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, the idea is that all doing involves doing something, which always has a component of physical bodily sensation
    Threedee Shepherd: what might be a "passive change"? That phrase sounds like an oxymoron
    Pila Mulligan: *always* has a component of physical bodily sensation?
    Pila Mulligan: sleeping on an airplane ...
    buddha Nirvana: i guess im saying that without any effort, things change
    Threedee Shepherd: yes, real or implicit in the imagination and/or memory
    Pema Pera: yes, Buddha, doing and not-doing . . .
    Pila Mulligan: what is the bodily sensation of a sleeping passenger moving in a airplane?
    Pila Mulligan: with an airplane more exactly
    buddha Nirvana: there is one, there always is sensation
    Pila Mulligan: in some sense, sure -- I was thinking more superficially
    Threedee Shepherd: Ok leaves change color due to chemical responses to the length of daylight and also temperature. I am not clear what kind of equivalent there is in the human.
    buddha Nirvana: entropy?

    Ade arrives for a few moments

    Pila Mulligan: hi Ade
    buddha Nirvana: Hi ade:)
    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
    Adelene Dawner: We have a newbit stuck on 3de who can't teleport or be teleported.
    stevenaia Michinaga: hi ADe
    Pila Mulligan: sounds like an emergency
    Adelene Dawner: He's certainly not happy about it.
    stevenaia Michinaga: can't log off and log on somewhere else?
    Pila Mulligan: newbie needs movement
    Threedee Shepherd: OK, buddha, that is interesting to ponder
    buddha Nirvana: eek catatonic
    Threedee Shepherd: buddha,
    buddha Nirvana: yes?
    buddha Nirvana: :)
    buddha Nirvana: sry, are you prompting me?
    Threedee Shepherd: the entropy question probably throws light on the issues of the scale to which the embodiment concept applies
    buddha Nirvana: things disperse, due to a primal cause
    Threedee Shepherd: If we start at the most obvious top level of conscious perception and consciousness itself, then it has been argued that all consciousness has explicit or (more often) implicit INTENT
    Pila Mulligan: if embodiment = doing= movement, couldn't un-embodiment = not doing = stillness?
    Threedee Shepherd: Ahh Pila, you will force me to too much detail.
    buddha Nirvana: would we then be talking about singularity?
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Pila Mulligan: never mind then :)
    Pila Mulligan is ont one to encourage too much thinking or detail
    Threedee Shepherd: is there never "thought" at any level--aware or unaware, not happening as long as the human is not comatose?
    buddha Nirvana: there is stillness in though, but is that absolute thought - embodiment, im not sure
    Pila Mulligan: my thought is that thought indeed persists
    buddha Nirvana: thought*
    buddha Nirvana: absolute stillness*
    buddha Nirvana: sry folks
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: we need to be careful about the word stillness
    buddha Nirvana: sure
    buddha Nirvana: i think there are levels of stillness
    buddha Nirvana: just like there are components of the body/mind
    buddha Nirvana: i think stillness also occurs in layers
    buddha Nirvana: i'e - stillness of thought, stillness of sensation
    Threedee Shepherd: All thought is about things learned in relationship to the world in the broadest sense. That learning always has a physical bodily component that is imbedded in the thought/memory when it is recalled, that is, implicit motion
    Pema Pera: I think I'll do some moving myself in the RL :). Good seeing you all again!
    Threedee Shepherd: goodnight Pema
    stevenaia Michinaga: bye Pema
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema, have a nice afternoon
    buddha Nirvana: c u pema
    Pema Pera: thanks, Pila, lunch coming up :-)
    Pema Pera: bf
    Pema Pera: bfn

    Pema Pera departs

    buddha Nirvana: yes, in the buddhist context they call it Kalapa
    buddha Nirvana: or a karma, even
    buddha Nirvana: the accumulation of sensation/ thought
    Threedee Shepherd: You all realize, I hope, that while I am talking in the assertive mode, all that I am asserting is complex and open to deeper discussion
    Pila Mulligan: well, the embodiment part sounds a little extreme to me, in a metaphysical sense
    buddha Nirvana: so, if we 'are' can we be still?
    Pila Mulligan: you're suggesting that Krishna cannot think :)
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, it is a standpoint that is emphasized to get away from Cartesian dualism
    buddha Nirvana: i guess thats what it infers
    Pila Mulligan: okay, what is Cartesian dualism?
    Pila Mulligan is not as smart as you may think :)
    Threedee Shepherd: the mind-body split that led to the statement "I think therefore I am" (having nothing to do with my corporeal part)
    Pila Mulligan: oh, Descartes
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Pila Mulligan: so you want to get away from non-material thoughts
    Threedee Shepherd: sorry, I left out the r in Cartesian
    buddha Nirvana: can there ever be real stillness if duality 'is'
    Threedee Shepherd: correct, Pila. No such thing
    Pila Mulligan: you left it in, I left it out :)
    Pila Mulligan: but what would Krishna think about that?
    Pila Mulligan: a light being, a deity, not thinking -- holy schmoly
    buddha Nirvana: sure..
    buddha Nirvana: how then did the buddha or jesus, or whoever speak
    Threedee Shepherd: Now, the Buddhist references are beyond my easy understanding.
    buddha Nirvana: perhaps non-thought / stillness doesn't infer that we be catatonic
    Pila Mulligan: emptiness is a good thing
    buddha Nirvana: not that anyone has managed to tell us
    Threedee Shepherd: being has the -ing component as in be-ing
    Pila Mulligan: or do-ing
    Threedee Shepherd: yes. -ing -->activity, motion
    buddha Nirvana: were 'inging;
    Pila Mulligan: Threedee, there are lots of reasons to deny non-material thought, but they need not be held if the purpose is simply to deny non-material existence
    buddha Nirvana: sorry three, did you imply that its through choice/doing - that weare?
    Pila Mulligan: no reason is needed for a belief
    Threedee Shepherd: buddha, it sounds like I am. As I said once we move from absolute statements to nuanced discussion, it is more complicated than that
    Pila Mulligan: and so, how is it that we are?
    Threedee Shepherd: Pila, loosely put, thinking always has a brain substrate for humans, as in the idea "the brain is the organ of the mind"
    Threedee Shepherd: these is "noone" in-there other than my corporeal brain and its workings
    Pila Mulligan: why?
    buddha Nirvana: just a thought - if there are sensations in the leg, say, is are mind at that moment of observation also in the leg?
    Threedee Shepherd: because if there was *someone* non-corporeal in there, how could it communicate eith something corporeal. And also, who then is the someone inside that non-corporeal "little person" who does it's thinking, etc.
    buddha Nirvana: is the mind*
    Pila Mulligan: well, the non-corporeal someone in there communicates with the corporeal through the brain substrate, same as light communicate with the brain, by stimulating it with an external energy
    Threedee Shepherd: In a manner of speaking, buddah, yes. Or from a different perspective, the sensation of brain/body is oneness that we then artificially parcel out
    Pila Mulligan: no one else is inside the little fellow
    Threedee Shepherd: The non-corporeal must have physical aspects (matter and/or energy) to communicate with the physical brain.
    Pila Mulligan: like light , yes
    Threedee Shepherd: Light is physical
    Pila Mulligan: ok
    Pila Mulligan: so is the little fellow then
    Threedee Shepherd: and you are lost in infinite regress
    Pila Mulligan: see, you are a metaphysical dude then
    Pila Mulligan: why
    Threedee Shepherd: how so?
    Pila Mulligan: light is light
    Pila Mulligan: let's take infinite regress first
    buddha Nirvana: i must go folks... im off sync with my thinking here, helpfully i wasn't too much of a loose canon:)
    Threedee Shepherd: If my corporeal brain needs a little man to interpret for it, then he does too, and so on
    Pila Mulligan: bye buddha, thanks for your thoughts
    Threedee Shepherd: Not at all, buddha, I think you were right on
    Pila Mulligan: one little fellow made of light reposes with the corpuscular being, twins as it were
    Pila Mulligan: or perhaps two in some cases of schizophrenia
    buddha Nirvana: happy dreams, of little fellows dancing in fields i hope:)
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    stevenaia Michinaga: night Buddha
    Pila Mulligan: see you next time, buddha
    buddha Nirvana: nite:)) thanks guys
    stevenaia Michinaga: I must go to, thanks
    Pila Mulligan: the little fellow is ont interpreting for the brain
    Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
    stevenaia Michinaga: :)
    Threedee Shepherd: The whole point of descartes is that there are two things (dualism) a physical body (include brain) and a totally non-physical thing called mind
    Threedee Shepherd: night Steve

    stevenaia Michinaga departs

    Pila Mulligan: ok, I'm taking mind apart from the physical body in the sense that light is apart therefrom, but I'm not being Descartian in the sense you just stated
    Threedee Shepherd: How can anything totally non-physical interact with anything physical?
    Pila Mulligan: well, if light is physical, as I agree it is, then we are at a finer level of distinction
    Pila Mulligan: maybe we should be discussing how thought occupies light
    Threedee Shepherd: Oh, it is absolutely possible that consciousness is some kind of physical force/energy
    Pila Mulligan: inhabits light
    Pila Mulligan: see, that's metaphysical
    Pila Mulligan: 21st century metaphysics
    Pila Mulligan: someone was telling me you have an interest in meditation
    Threedee Shepherd: No it is not, it just says that the physical description of the force/energy that is consciousness escapes us, just at the weak atomic force was unknown to Newton
    Pila Mulligan: yes, but I suspect light will be very close to the energy ultimately tied to consciousness
    Pila Mulligan: by science
    Pila Mulligan: as it has already been done by the ancients
    Threedee Shepherd: I see no reason to make a supposition about that, one way or the other
    Pila Mulligan: as in 'enlightenment'
    Pila Mulligan: reasoning may be guild related here :)
    Threedee Shepherd: that kind of enlightenment is a metaphor on the fact that it is hard to see in the dark
    Pila Mulligan: well, metaphors are good symbols, and the light indeed helps in the dark
    Threedee Shepherd: yes but symbols and analogy recall the finger pointing at the moon injunction
    Pila Mulligan: ok, help me here too please
    Pila Mulligan: enjoining _____?
    Threedee Shepherd: Zen: The finger pointing at the moon is not the moon.
    Pila Mulligan: ah, ok
    Pila Mulligan: but light is likely to be the element of consciousness that has eluded science so far, not just because ancient fingers point to it, but because it seems to have the requisite subtlety
    Pila Mulligan: the quantum properties and such
    Threedee Shepherd: If so, we don't know it.
    Pila Mulligan: we science
    Pila Mulligan: don't know it
    Pila Mulligan: yet
    Threedee Shepherd: we-->humanity in the sense of knowledge leads to testable predictions
    Threedee Shepherd: So, I need to do moving, also and will say goodnight
    Pila Mulligan: what was the thing we spoke about a few weeks ago, the idea of certain fundamental structures supporting perceived reality -- the term we used slips my mind
    Pila Mulligan: ok, see you next time Threedee
    Threedee Shepherd: I don't think I was there. Sounds like Pema
    Pila Mulligan: :) you were there, you agreed:)
    Pila Mulligan: I'll find the log
    Pila Mulligan: not to hold you up
    Threedee Shepherd: k. Next time ^.^
    Pila Mulligan: aloha
    Tag page (Edit tags)
    • No tags
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core