2009.04.05 19:00 - Open Sim and PaB-RL

 

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Three

Threedee Shepherd: hi, again

stevenaia Michinaga: nice place you had there

Threedee Shepherd: ^.^

stevenaia Michinaga: you guys keeping busy with projects?

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila

Pila Mulligan: hi steve and Threedee

Threedee Shepherd: I hope so :> So far so good.

stevenaia Michinaga: nice

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila. We do need an "additional" next client, but not immediately. Also, we are hoping to get OpenSim work once we have demos to display.

Pila Mulligan: Threedee there may be some discontinuity here

Threedee Shepherd: ??

stevenaia Michinaga: we were just talking about ThreeDee's inworld projects

Pila Mulligan: I'm not sure what oy just said Threedee :)

stevenaia Michinaga: before you joined us

Pila Mulligan: would I be a client?

Threedee Shepherd: [19:04] stevenaia Michinaga: you guys keeping busy with projects? [19:04] Threedee Shepherd: I hope so :> So far so good. [19:04] stevenaia Michinaga: nice [19:05] Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pila. We do need an "additional" next client, but not immediately. Also, we are hoping to get OpenSim work once we have demos to display.

Pila Mulligan: yes, I just am not sure what a client and Opensim are, or refer to :)

Threedee Shepherd: No Pila, I am not suggesting you would be a client.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: I'd be happy to :)

Pila Mulligan: sorry to be so slow on tech stuff

Pila Mulligan: ohhhh ... now I see

Pila Mulligan: you were answering Steve

stevenaia Michinaga: yes

Pila Mulligan: my confusion was that I thought you were telling me something

Pila Mulligan: pardon

stevenaia Michinaga: a "middle of a conversation " arrival

Pila Mulligan: so it seems

Threedee Shepherd: A client is someone or company that hires my company 3DE, LLC to build a simulation for them in Second Life. Adelene is one of the people who works with me on such projects, for real money.

Pila Mulligan: ahh, cool

Pila Mulligan: she mentioned she was doing a university project in SL

stevenaia Michinaga: you don;t work for lindens?

Pila Mulligan: making aSL university that is

Threedee Shepherd: OpenSim is a sort of "clone" of SL that allows anyone to serve their own SL-like universe, using Open Source software that is being developed (like Linux was).\

Threedee Shepherd: Multi-projects, Steve.

Pila Mulligan: that sounds very cool

stevenaia Michinaga: Ade gave me a tour of that Miami university you were working on, very impressive

Pila Mulligan: is OpenSim something you do now Threedee?

Threedee Shepherd: Ade and I are building an entire Island that is going to be the Miami Dade College Virtual Campus in SL. Yes we get paid for that in US$. That is how Ade is now earning a living.

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Pila Mulligan: nice

stevenaia Michinaga: good to see someone can make a living from SL

Threedee Shepherd: Steve, Ade and I also intend to do a project in conjunction with Kira/PaB to build a "Neuroversity" in SL that explores the diverse ways that the brains of differently-abled folks function, by showing demos.

Pila Mulligan: yes, Ade also mentioned that

Threedee Shepherd: We are writing for a grant to do so so Ade can be paid and so Kira can also get some support.

Pila Mulligan: the idea seems to also have the potential to inform the treatment side of that equation of the pitfalls of their vocabulary

stevenaia Michinaga: like the heart you walk through at the Franklin institute? only the brain in it;s ways of perceiving?

stevenaia Michinaga: through

Threedee Shepherd: My company, 3DE, (stands for 3D Embodiment) has already put up a private 4-Sim world using OpenSim software. We are using it as a testbed right now.

Threedee Shepherd: Something like that, Steve.

Pila Mulligan: is it accessible from SL, Threedee? (Translates: can I see it? :)

Threedee Shepherd: No, it is not accessible from SL. Linden is apparently NOT intending to interoperate with OpenSims, at least at this time.

Pila Mulligan: ahh, shades of Microsoft

Threedee Shepherd: There is still nothing significant to see on our OpenSim. It looks just like land in SL that is undeveloped.. When there is, we can invite people in via demo avatars we will set up.

Pila Mulligan: I look forward to it :)

Threedee Shepherd: So do I ^.^

Pila Mulligan: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: grins

Pila Mulligan: you don't need any extra server resources by any chance, do you?

stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pema

Pila Mulligan: hi Pema

Pila Mulligan: welcome to the Second Life time zone

Threedee Shepherd: Not now. We are using a small server farm on the East Coast that a guy is running as a small business to specifically host OpenSims. Why do you ask?

Pila Mulligan: I

Pema Pera: Hi Pila, Steve, Three!

Threedee Shepherd: Hi Pema

Pila Mulligan: I've had a shared server for about ten years for a few small web sites I host there

Threedee Shepherd: Ahh.

Pila Mulligan: the hosting company has grown in that time and recently gave a huge upgrade with a reduced price

Pila Mulligan: I've got like 20 gb of unused disk space and 200 gb of bandwidth waiting for something

Pila Mulligan: 200 gb/month

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Pila Mulligan: my little websites were written in note pad in the last century and are measured in kb

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Pila Mulligan: so it is like whoa, lots of free space

Threedee Shepherd: The key for us is that the guy we are using is taking care of mounting and maintaining and upgrading (often) the back-end OpenSim software

Pila Mulligan: ahh, that's nice

Pila Mulligan: I mentioned it to Storm, also, Pema - just in case Kira wants some room to play with

Pila Mulligan: the whole thing costs me $10 a month

Threedee Shepherd: I think we are filling one server machine-equivalent for our particular site of 4 SL-equivalent sims, paying $100/month total.

Pema Pera: yes, it's an interesting possibility

Pila Mulligan: server technology sure has taken great leaps in recent years

Threedee Shepherd: very much so

Pila Mulligan: so Second Life would become a spawning ground for specialized separate places it sound like, with OpenSim

Threedee Shepherd: Pema, when 3DE gets up to speed playing with our current, private, OpenSim testbed, Ade and I will discuss possibilities that Kira/PaB may want to pursue in OpenSim.

Pema Pera: sure, I'd be happy to talk

Pema Pera: for anything people based, though, Sl will remain the main place for quite a while, given that that's where the people are

Threedee Shepherd: Actually Pila, what the relevant blogs are speculating is that essentially all businesses , museums and educational institutions will move from SL to OpenSim, for these reasons.

Threedee Shepherd: There are no Terms of Service Limitations, so adults and children could visit.

Pila Mulligan: yes, I see both comments being complementary -- SL is where the people are and OpenSim is where they will go to find specialized stuff

Threedee Shepherd: The owner has full control.

Pila Mulligan: Sl as the stepping off place

Threedee Shepherd: Very few (none?) legitimate RL companies with RL products have made money in SL.

Pema Pera: the one thing we need is interoperability . . .

Pila Mulligan: SL has some obvious limitations with its vast playground kind of environment

stevenaia Michinaga: can there be links, or just a signpost.... log off and sign on here?

Threedee Shepherd: The operations of that sort in SL are here for the functionality, more than anything else. Now that OpenSim is growing as a possibility, there are easier and cheaper and better ways to get that functionality.

Pila Mulligan: I bet it will prove to be mutually beneficial for the SL and OpenSim to interoperate ... but that does not necessarily mean they will :) (remembering Microsoft)

stevenaia Michinaga: welcome Bertrum

Bertrum Quan: hi everyone

Threedee Shepherd: Steve, the OpenSim movement actually doe not refer to the fact that it uses Open Source software. Rather, the software is being developed so that any Sim can be OPEN to avatars from any other OpenSim that wants to participate and interoperate.

Threedee Shepherd: Many are wondering whether SL will be left in the dust.

Pila Mulligan: hi Bert

Threedee Shepherd: hi Bert

Pema Pera: Hi there Bert!

Pila Mulligan: for SL to be left in the dust there will need to be some pretty adolescent oriented open sims :)

Threedee Shepherd: A key fact is that OpenSim software is being initially "reverse engineered" to have all of the functionality of SL, but the code is being produced in a more modern way than the SL code.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Threedee Shepherd: Yes, or SL may become THE "social" Sim.

Pila Mulligan: yep

Pila Mulligan: then people interested in more specialized stuff can migrate, to to speak

Pila Mulligan: migrate*

Pila Mulligan: immigrants :)

Threedee Shepherd: A key point is how SL will make money as just a "social" Sim. Typical players do not buy whole islands.

Threedee Shepherd: As it is, SL has (it is said) not yet made any profit on well over US$20 million in venture capital input.

Pila Mulligan: it sounds like SL will face the same kind of growing pains that most high tech ideas have had to face

Pila Mulligan: quick competition with sharp ideas, that is

Threedee Shepherd: Yes, and they are playing their cards so close to their chest that folks wonder if they have any cards ;>

Pila Mulligan: this is such an interesting thing -- the intellectual property vs open source situation

Pila Mulligan: it is the hegelian dialectic of our times

Pila Mulligan: in the West

Threedee Shepherd: Well, in the end it seems you can make money more easily by selling services than by selling software of the "browser" sort.

Pila Mulligan: the intellectual property idea has suffered a lot of growth and a lot of corruption

Pila Mulligan: copyrights have come a long way :)

Threedee Shepherd: A realistic prediction is that within 5-10 years, every current web site that can benefit from 3D presentation will have an OpenSim "section" of its web site. AND

Threedee Shepherd: there will be unified browsers that let you access the 2D and 3D portions seamlessly, Using an SL like avatar.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: and then holographs :)

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: of course

Threedee Shepherd: Recently, IBM, Intel and Microsoft invested serious money in Opensim software development, using the Open source model.

Pila Mulligan: well, aren't they getting smart :)

Threedee Shepherd: They want to sell product/services

Pila Mulligan: this situation with movie studios suing consumers is absurd

Pila Mulligan: in my humble opinion

Threedee Shepherd: In terms of PaB, I think that the software being developed will allow more people to "play" with "virtuality" in an easy fashion.

Pila Mulligan: the Grateful Dead invited people to tape and share their sets

Pila Mulligan: they did pretty well

Pema Pera: I can see many applications, Three

Pema Pera: but how do you think it will help PaB?

Threedee Shepherd: What might you be thinking of, Pema

Pema Pera: Given that we are more people oriented than building and scripting?

Threedee Shepherd: I think that Playing at Being will allow people to exercise their imaginations in virtual worlds that are set up with many different kinds of starting "rules" or standpoints. More "What if the world was like this" kind of things.

Pema Pera: Ah, I see, more like playing in constructing whole new worlds?

Threedee Shepherd: I am saying that I think many interesting an unexpected "things" will emerge when people can explore "reality" with fewer constraints, and inexpensively.

Threedee Shepherd: *and

Pila Mulligan: I think people are still learning the possibilities and limits of sharing contemplative practices in this kind of situation (SL) -- it is both more and less than i had expected -- such as in terms of the gestalt potential

Threedee Shepherd: agreed

Pila Mulligan: the lack of direct contact is a serious obstacle, but there is a surprising degree of contact nonetheless

Threedee Shepherd: Still, if you play in SL you are limited by their rules and inherent structure.

Pila Mulligan: Linden rules?

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Pila Mulligan: would a different screen stimulus affect the interaction of contemplative discussions? there's a question

Threedee Shepherd: When the personal computer arrived, and then when Arpanet became WWW, who would have predicted SL?

Threedee Shepherd: Pila, Of course I don't know, but my prediction is yes.

Pila Mulligan: Ade and I made a mandala on her board here a few days ago -- it was an interesting nonvebral experience

Threedee Shepherd: yes

Pila Mulligan: took about an hour and was not your usual SL stuff :)

Pema Pera: Thanks, Pila -- I hope that will go into the chat log!

Threedee Shepherd: I note that the joint contemplative "conversation" in SL is different from olde-type chat rooms.

Pila Mulligan: :)

Threedee Shepherd: Here is a trivial possible example.

Threedee Shepherd: To return to previous PaB conversations an individual needs to look up a log in the Wiki or on their own computer.

Threedee Shepherd: Now, suppose you could teleport "temporally" and suddenly bring up for all present a previous conversation with its context, and then continue it instantly, anew.

Pema Pera: like the "time machine" in a Mac?

Threedee Shepherd: I'm not sure what that is Pema

Pema Pera: well, like what you described :-) don't let me side track you

Threedee Shepherd: np

Threedee Shepherd: What I just described is technically possible. If an OpenSim was appropriately set up, it would not be too hard to accomplish.

Pema Pera: Yes, I do think more and more software will be integrated in very novel ways

Threedee Shepherd: A main problem would be finding the "hook points" to return to, but there are even ways to approach that.

Threedee Shepherd: For starters, the community could agree on many keywords that are then cross-referenced automatically.

Pema Pera: well, I'll sign off -- great seeing you all again!

Threedee Shepherd: bye Pema

Pema Pera: maybe I'll dream about future software tonight :)

stevenaia Michinaga: thanks for joining us

Pila Mulligan: bye pema

stevenaia Michinaga: hope PaB will make a worthy ginny pig platform, Three

Threedee Shepherd: so do I

Pila Mulligan: :)

Bertrum Quan: What's your guess about the development of SL-like software for cell phones and hand held computers

stevenaia Michinaga: I've already attended a PaB meeting here from my iPhone.. it;s a beginning

Threedee Shepherd: It is already happening. The main issues are screen-space and bandwidth.

stevenaia Michinaga: it was limited to chat-like text and IM's only

Threedee Shepherd: I think bandwidth increases will continue, and alleviate that bottleneck.

stevenaia Michinaga: no graphics

stevenaia Michinaga: that and graphics processing of the hardware

Threedee Shepherd: The scree space issue will be addressed by flexible screens that can fold up and unfold like paper.

Threedee Shepherd: *screen

Pila Mulligan: and then holographic projections :)

Bertrum Quan: With that technology there are amazing RL possibilities..

stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, Ade was saying something about thaT EARLIER PILA

Threedee Shepherd: perhaps holographic, possibly 3-dimensional via other technologies

Pila Mulligan: some kind of projection into air though, probably

Threedee Shepherd: (I also predict that one day there will be an input device that knows what I mean and will not have typos ;>

Pila Mulligan: that will be nice

stevenaia Michinaga: I'll be happy with a spellchecker

stevenaia Michinaga: right Pila?

Pila Mulligan: reet

Bertrum Quan: You see AI integrated in these new systems

Threedee Shepherd: I would bet that someone is developing a spellchecker for OpenSim right now

Threedee Shepherd: What do you mean by AI, specifically, Bert?

Bertrum Quan: Artificial Intelligence applications

Threedee Shepherd: such as

Bertrum Quan: You mentioned an application "that knows what you mean" which is more than a spell-checker!

Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm

Threedee Shepherd: Actually, the start of that is the high-quality automatic language translation tools that Google is developing.

Bertrum Quan: Does the Google translation software also involve TTS?

stevenaia Michinaga: TTS?

Threedee Shepherd: what is TTS?

Bertrum Quan: Text to speech.

Threedee Shepherd: not that I am aware of. However, I have read that brute force computing power is making TTS and STT much better than it ever was.

stevenaia Michinaga: I do believe I have a Google App only phone that does Speech to search

stevenaia Michinaga: to text

stevenaia Michinaga: voice search

Threedee Shepherd: Well friends, RL deadline for tomorrow calls, so I will be off. Interesting conversation. Goodnight :)

Pila Mulligan: are you a Stanford sports fan Threedee?

Threedee Shepherd: no

Pila Mulligan: big game in women's basketball

Threedee Shepherd: ahh

Pila Mulligan: semifinal NCAA championship

Pila Mulligan: have a nice evening, Threedee

Bertrum Quan: 'Night 3-D

stevenaia Michinaga: I once asked it for a bank branch open on saturday in a specific city in voice and got an accurate response

Pila Mulligan: cool Steve

stevenaia Michinaga: night all

stevenaia Michinaga: so it's close

Pila Mulligan: have you seen reQall

stevenaia Michinaga: let's hope all this interesting stuff is here sooner than later

stevenaia Michinaga: no

Pila Mulligan: http://www.reqall.com/about

Pila Mulligan: it uses voice to make calendar entries

Pila Mulligan: in text

Bertrum Quan: we've come along way from soup cans connected by twine!

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: and bird quills

stevenaia Michinaga: looks perfect for me

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: thanks

Pila Mulligan: yes, a veritable geezer life saver

stevenaia Michinaga: exactly

Pila Mulligan: call it in before you forget

stevenaia Michinaga: lol

Bertrum Quan: I need to sign off. This was an informative session. Thanks.

Pila Mulligan: bye Bertrum, nice to see you

Bertrum Quan: 'night Pila and Steve.

stevenaia Michinaga: bye Bertrum

Pila Mulligan: Steve, do you have some ideas for Wednesday

Pila Mulligan: how to elicit creative ideas from the chat session?

stevenaia Michinaga: I cannot make it wednesday, will be on my way to mother-in-laws for passover dinner

Pila Mulligan: hope the weather lets you keep the door open :)

stevenaia Michinaga: I will be working the edges toward the cent, you have some more concrete aspects that also need to be flushed out

stevenaia Michinaga: it will be interesting to see the initial interest

stevenaia Michinaga: from the guardians

stevenaia Michinaga: toward the center

Pila Mulligan: I asked storm if he can have streaming music for that session

Pila Mulligan: by Im, no reply yet

stevenaia Michinaga: music? why?

Pila Mulligan: from our music discussion the other night, about it helping creativity

Pila Mulligan: what kind of questions or ideas would help get the edges defined, in the sense you used 'edges'

stevenaia Michinaga: think a broad concept of what this place is will need to be discussed so a firm image of the plan will slowly materialize for the group

Pila Mulligan: I agree

Pila Mulligan: just wondering how to stimulate the breadth approach

stevenaia Michinaga: even a listing of word/concepts need to be aggregated

Pila Mulligan: nice idea

stevenaia Michinaga: them an image will arise

Pila Mulligan: yep

stevenaia Michinaga: like what comes to mind..... list it , categorize it over weeks, etc

stevenaia Michinaga: I can hep there

Pila Mulligan: now a Hawaiian friend told me when I started working on this place three years ago, 'don't make too many plans, the land will show you what should be'

Pila Mulligan: but that only works if you are here already :)

Pila Mulligan: ops

Pila Mulligan: 90 secs

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: architect's call this developing a master plan in which all will fit in to

Pila Mulligan: I like the idea, and the fact that you are experienced with it

Pila Mulligan: i have a lot of organizing experience, but not in this field

stevenaia Michinaga: if you begin with a clear enough vision, all the details will fall into place...later

Pila Mulligan: and so it is new to me

Pila Mulligan: that is generally true, it seems

Pila Mulligan: of many things

stevenaia Michinaga: most processes don;t work out that way however, if you think of concentric circles, you start from the edge and the solution is in the middle and includes all the circles

Pila Mulligan: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: there is this Kohler plumbing fixture commercial which is the antithesis of this process.. here's a faucet, the client says to an architect, design a house around this...

Pila Mulligan: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: there are many ancient methods of developing aspects of this project, from Vedic methodology, fung Shui and a hose of other thematic methods as well

stevenaia Michinaga: *host

Pila Mulligan: one of the necessary skills of community organizing is to get people to slip out of action oriented thinking from time to time -- get them to just relate to images

Pila Mulligan: once there is a consensus image, actions follow naturally

stevenaia Michinaga: before that, words help, like light, comfort, other wants of the group, like what storm obviously sensed when he thought about this space, then the images develop

stevenaia Michinaga: size shape orientation, hierarchy, if there is any

stevenaia Michinaga: much of what we go here is word wiggle, so I think the group will find the words quicker than most to explain what they feel this place should be

Pila Mulligan: so far there have been no responses from anyone interested in it as a residence, and it that persists then we will only be looking at transient lodging facilities

Pila Mulligan: if*

stevenaia Michinaga: the logistics and financial structure is another aspect of this too

Pila Mulligan: yes, a big biggy

Pila Mulligan: are you going to the August retreat?

stevenaia Michinaga: but a well structured plan can also accommodate various scenarios

Pila Mulligan: and sequences

stevenaia Michinaga: no, it aligns within a few weeks of my 30 anniversary

stevenaia Michinaga: within

Pila Mulligan: ahh :)

Pila Mulligan: there are some nice photos of the facility on their website

stevenaia Michinaga: one must prioritize... grin

Pila Mulligan: yes, and I agree with your priority there

Pila Mulligan: I admire couples that stay married :)

stevenaia Michinaga: I am familiar with the Santa Cruz Area, it will be lovely place for you

Pila Mulligan: I won;t be there either though

Pila Mulligan: I'm a wus when it comes to travel

stevenaia Michinaga: thought you were retried

stevenaia Michinaga: haha

Pila Mulligan: I am :)

stevenaia Michinaga: well Corvi won;t either, we will have to do the strategic stuff online

Pila Mulligan: I had vague intimations of an OpenSim retreat facility during the earlier conversation

stevenaia Michinaga: maybe in ThreeDee's open Sim, sounds intriguing

Pila Mulligan: you can't really do tai chi there, but it is interesting how close you can get to a group meditation while spread around the globe

stevenaia Michinaga: there are some very good Tai Chi pose balls here

Pila Mulligan: yes, they are fun

Pila Mulligan: incidentally, Fefonz mentioned he is taking kung fu classes now

stevenaia Michinaga: they do do it better than I do

Pila Mulligan: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: I did Karate when I was 9 to 11ish

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: kung fu is closer to tai chi than karate is

stevenaia Michinaga: gave me the confidence to run the other way

Pila Mulligan: yep

Pila Mulligan: avoid the fight

stevenaia Michinaga: or to make it quick

Pila Mulligan: Chinese saying: no fight no blame

stevenaia Michinaga: or pain

Pila Mulligan: this is how morality began

Pila Mulligan: prehistoric humans began to realize how alternatives to fighting had long term benefits

stevenaia Michinaga: you probably mean men

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Pila Mulligan: :)

Pila Mulligan: it was a very subtle realization, almost as profound as anything since

stevenaia Michinaga: reason?

Pila Mulligan: gave rise to the fundamental precepts of morality, in my opinion

Pila Mulligan: reason for the subtlety?

stevenaia Michinaga: sounds very Darwin-like, reason over fighting

Pila Mulligan: yes

Pila Mulligan: that moment of perception that if I refrain from killing this fellow his family will be better neighbors

Pila Mulligan: or if I don;t kidnap his daughters, same same

Pila Mulligan: of steal his food

stevenaia Michinaga: easier can be only short term

Pila Mulligan: actually, people are still learning those lessons

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: well bed time for me, Corvi will be covering for me on Wednesday, perhaps you can continue your afternoon conversation

Pila Mulligan: have a nice Seder dinner, Wednesday, Steve, I hope Elijah blesses your door :)

stevenaia Michinaga: and drinks his wine

stevenaia Michinaga: :)

Pila Mulligan: :)

stevenaia Michinaga: night Pila

Pila Mulligan: aloha