2009.04.14 13:00 - Trev goes Bonpo

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

Trevor Berensohn: Can I ask something? Everyone's opinion on somethng?
aurel Miles: why is that? they can't hurt me
Mickorod Renard: yes pls
Wol Euler: fire away
arabella Ella: yes Trev
Fefonz Quan nods
aurel Miles nods
Wester Kiranov: please do
Trevor Berensohn: Well.. My daily practice is pretty much Tibetan Bonpo
arabella Ella: yes
Trevor Berensohn: It's very similar to PaB, but not exactly the same
Mickorod Renard: can u explain more?
arabella Ella intruiged
Trevor Berensohn: It seems t me tht I am doing much the same as PaB, but my terminology is very specifically Tibetan
Trevor Berensohn: So I don't share much here
Trevor Berensohn: Someties I wonder if I should even be coming here
arabella Ella would like to hear more
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
Mickorod Renard: your experience can be very rewarding for us
Trevor Berensohn: Though I enjoy, and relate to all of you so
arabella Ella: ]about Tibetan Bonpo
Fefonz Quan: it might be refreshing to you and us if you share your experiences in a new terminology
Trevor Berensohn: Hmm my practice, in a nutshell is basically to let each moment of experience arise,
Mickorod Renard: some extra understanding may help some of us struggling in PaB
Trevor Berensohn: and just be present in awareness of the emty essnce that is giving rise to that moment of experience
Wol Euler: what is the cause of your discomfort, Trevor? where does that "should" come from?
Trevor Berensohn: Well, it's a very specific way of looking at this whole Being thing, but we don't call it Being at all
Trevor Berensohn: Howeve our description of the experience matches PaB's pretty spot on
Fefonz Quan: yes, sounds like it
Mickorod Renard: what do you call it Trev?
arabella Ella: so what do you call it trev?
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm just being present in the natural mind, and the other way of experiencing, the normal mind
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Mickorod Renard: I think it would be right for me to say that most of us here have quite diferent religious backgrounds
Fefonz Quan: well i fnid being is so elusive here too...
Fefonz Quan: Being*
Trevor Berensohn: I think I get stuck on the Being terminology
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i think that having more than one hypothesis is better than only having one.
Mickorod Renard: well, I do too
Fefonz Quan: me too, so i avoid it very often :)
Trevor Berensohn: because every definition I've found, suggests something concrete
Trevor Berensohn: So I refrain fromcommen most ften
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Trevor Berensohn: & consider solitary practice (in SL- Ha!)
Fefonz Quan: (or i start a group of sessin themes with pema in order to make others confused too ;-))
Wester Kiranov: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahah
Trevor Berensohn: (Heh)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: perfect!
Mickorod Renard: but being seems to work well in that it can be accepted by folk from diferent backgrounds..if u know what I mean
Fefonz Quan: Trevor, i would guess the term 'Being' is confusing to many of us, but we try to share experiences rather than theoretical accurate words/concepts
Wester Kiranov: so what's your question trev?
Mickorod Renard: I think you make valuable contributions here Trev
Trevor Berensohn: I guess I'm just not sure how involved I should be.. I don't want to muddy the water any
Wol Euler: oh please :)
Wol Euler: as if your bonpo could be any muddier than
Mickorod Renard: you wont muddy anything
Wol Euler: onigokko
Fefonz Quan likes Mudy Waters :)
Trevor Berensohn: Was just hoping that feedback would help me um chart my course in this
Trevor Berensohn: Hahaha
Wol Euler: stop
arabella Ella: LOL
Wester Kiranov: :D
Wester Kiranov: needed that
arabella Ella: the onigokko is so so funny
Wol Euler: :)
sophia Placebo: that was sudden
Mickorod Renard: it would be nice sometime if you could give an insite into your understanding,,it may help us grasp being
Mickorod Renard: oops
Trevor Berensohn: and just in time heh
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Wol Euler: I would be sorry to see you leave, Trevor, especially if you did so because you thought you were confusing us.
sophia Placebo: g2g , see you all
aurel Miles: i am always confused
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm I've just begun receiving ths linege.. should ask my teacher how much I should share
arabella Ella: I agree with you there Wol
Mickorod Renard: bye sophie
Wester Kiranov: bye sophia
Wol Euler: bye sophia
aurel Miles: it is my natural state
Trevor Berensohn: good to see you sophia
Wester Kiranov: agree with wol
aurel Miles: bye sophia
Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia :)
arabella Ella: Trev, i think we all enjoy your company here
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I was beginning to enjoy your company
sophia Placebo: good to hear from you too trev
Trevor Berensohn: normal, aurel ;-)
Trevor Berensohn: heh
aurel Miles smiles
Wol Euler: could you tell us of direct experience, perhaps, rather than of the philosophy that got you there?
Trevor Berensohn: I bet you're naturally more aware than you're, um, aware of
Fefonz Quan: I would say you've got some way to go before you can take part in teh PaB great confusers here :)
Wol Euler: if you feel that you shouldn't speak of hte philosophy...
Fefonz Quan: competition*
Wester Kiranov: I think we all are here to help each other unmuddy our water
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Trevor Berensohn: Hahaha
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or..to listen as we each unmuddy our own!
Trevor Berensohn: Well te Bonpo seem to be all about practices
Fefonz Quan: (or throw mud across the pool :))
Wester Kiranov: or find that there isn't any difference between our own and others'
Trevor Berensohn: that remove obstacles to our awareness of each moment of all this
Trevor Berensohn: more than philosophy or anything
Mickorod Renard: nice
Fefonz Quan: that sounds very interesting Trevor.
Mickorod Renard: we need Bonpo
Trevor Berensohn: just like this PaB practice... it gets you in the zone
Trevor Berensohn: and hels you tay thre increasingly
Fefonz Quan: and many people brought Biddhist/Taoist/Christian/other concepts around
Wester Kiranov: is this a kind of buddhism, or is it the original tibetan religion? or something else?
Wester Kiranov: just to get feel for the background
Trevor Berensohn: Oh. It was the indigent belief/practice of Tibet before Buddhism came there
Mickorod Renard: wow
Trevor Berensohn: The Bonpo claim it came from Western Tibet/Pakisan, like 18 thousand years ago or so
arabella Ella: cool
Wester Kiranov: ok
Trevor Berensohn: But their main thoughts on the ultimate nature of things, and enlightenment, seem to be in line with Buddhism
Mickorod Renard: how long have you been practicing Trev?
Trevor Berensohn: Well.. just a year & a half, formally
Trevor Berensohn: But I had a practice since I was a child, that is the exact same practice as theirs
Mickorod Renard: and has it been an easyish journey?
Trevor Berensohn: It was maddening until I found others who had similar experiences
Trevor Berensohn: But once I met some Buddhist & Bonpo lams, it as bee incresingly smooth
Trevor Berensohn: *lamas
Mickorod Renard: I think looking for like minded souls is why we are here
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: fantastic
Trevor Berensohn: mmhmm, that seems to be a common thread
arabella Ella nods
Trevor Berensohn: Anyway, thank you so much for your responses; I'm less hesitant to speak of my experience here now
Wol Euler: good :)
arabella Ella: may I ask Trev what were the key motivating forces for you to take on Bonpo
Mickorod Renard: breaking through the conditioning of western style life is dificult for me
Trevor Berensohn: Ah yes Mick, I think only a personal practice can keep helping with that
Mickorod Renard: by personal practice,,do you mean something more intimate than what we do here?
Trevor Berensohn: Oh! I woul say this IS a great personal practice
Trevor Berensohn: ara, that would be a long story heh
Trevor Berensohn: But let's just say that it's th only pproac to spirituality/enmlightenment that seems to encompass everything
Mickorod Renard: thats reassuring Trev,,thanks
arabella Ella: ok Trev but whever you are happy to share your motivation and have time just let me know
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am very interested
Mickorod Renard: sometimes looking from a slightly diferent angle just helps
Mickorod Renard: so you could contribute well, i am sure
Trevor Berensohn: Well when I was young, I would just drop my emotions and "self", and directly know.. much like PaB actually
Trevor Berensohn: In this state of mind, many times I would know things about ppl, or situations, that were pretty deep
Mickorod Renard: I am mid 50's and only just learning the benefits to that Trev
arabella Ella: amazing
Trevor Berensohn: I got kicked out of my church coz would't cal it "god" thugh
Trevor Berensohn: *though
Trevor Berensohn: Heheh, same thing, I think, Mick... You describe similar results, indeed
Fefonz Quan: sounds like a kick in the right direction :)
Trevor Berensohn: Haha
Fefonz Quan: (btw - is there a dream workshop today?)
Mickorod Renard: yikes,,not sure
Trevor Berensohn: Dunno
arabella Ella: if i remember correctly i think dreams is today Tuesday
arabella Ella: Gilles is Wed
Trevor Berensohn: What time?
arabella Ella: Phenemo is Fri
arabella Ella: 2pm SL time
Wol Euler: most are at 2pm
Trevor Berensohn: uh oh
arabella Ella: but i may be wrong
Fefonz Quan: 2pm SLT, but please get back to the current discussion :0
Fefonz Quan: :)
arabella Ella: so PaB at 1pm
arabella Ella: Kira at 2pm
Mickorod Renard: I struggle with God too Trev,,to some degree I am reluctant to deviate due to loyalty
arabella Ella: but we often go on here with this discussion
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm even my Tibetan lamas hae suggsted tat I'mdeluded, because I'm not having realizations in the "right" order heh
aurel Miles: i know God exists because i struggle with him/her/them
Mickorod Renard: but my concept orf God doesnt fit in with Christian belief
Trevor Berensohn: But the Bonpo just say, "Yes, ihappens differently for everyone" heh
Trevor Berensohn: Ah it sounds lkie in some ways it does, Mick.. in some ways not?
arabella Ella likes that ... happens differently ... cool
Mickorod Renard: If one has an encounter,,it is deeply personal and no doubt individual
Fefonz Quan: encounter suggests someone else is involved
Wol Euler: God perhaps? or Being?
Mickorod Renard: mmmmm spiritual encounter
Wol Euler: or your inner self...
Trevor Berensohn: hmmm
arabella Ella: all of the above
Fefonz Quan: well God is not on my list, and Being is not someone (and surely not else ;-))
Mickorod Renard: hmmmmm
Trevor Berensohn: just recognition, awareness of awareness itself?
Fefonz Quan: i go with you, Trev
Mickorod Renard: yes,,an awareness is proberbly the best description
Trevor Berensohn: Coz what really comes to know itself in this kind of practice?
Trevor Berensohn: Certainly not that normal, everyday sort of mind
Trevor Berensohn: It seems to oly be ble to make stuff up lol
Trevor Berensohn: So what is this Being?
Mickorod Renard: and our geographical and upbringing has an effect on our perceptions
Wol Euler: yes (answer to Trevor)
Trevor Berensohn: Is it No-Thing, giving rise to the appearance of Every-Thing?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: our attempt to make a something out of nothing?
Trevor Berensohn: I'm not sure
Fefonz Quan: suchness, emptiness, you name it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i don't care.
Trevor Berensohn: And I guess that's what we're exploring here lol
Fefonz Quan: yep!
Trevor Berensohn: =)
Mickorod Renard: Pema has said something about the emptyness,,that is also inportant
Wester Kiranov: and the fullness...
Mickorod Renard: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...
arabella Ella: and timelessless too
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, I thnk that because of that emptiness, there can be the fullness of experience
Wester Kiranov: yes
Trevor Berensohn: Or did I just make that up
Trevor Berensohn: lol don't remember exactly
Mickorod Renard: sounds good to me Trev
Fefonz Quan: (Corvi reminded me of some quote i once saw: "if no mind - nothing matters, if no matter - i don't mind")
arabella Ella: seems like conujunction repaces 'either/or' and we arrive at empty and full
Mickorod Renard: and besides,,cos of all the noise in life,,making an emptiness in our conciousness is a way,,for me anyway,,to take on what i shut out
Trevor Berensohn: Like Dakini was always saying... Beyond
Mickorod Renard: are you familiar with the living water idea Trev?
Trevor Berensohn: Conjunction? Can you explain a bit of that?
Wester Kiranov: well I do find that opposites tend to claapse into each other and be the same ara
aurel Miles: I agree Wester
aurel Miles: wholeheartedly
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm no Mick
Wester Kiranov: which means I must be very awake as I am sooo tired
Trevor Berensohn: Awww Wester
Wol Euler excuses herself quietly and slips away to bed. Goodnight all, take care.
Trevor Berensohn: Nite Wol
Mickorod Renard: bye Wol
Trevor Berensohn: Sleep well
Fefonz Quan: (according to wester fefonz is on the way to enlightenment :))
arabella Ella: conjunction ... as in emptines and fullness merging together crisscrossing and overlapping
Fefonz Quan: bye Wol :)
arabella Ella: nite Wol
Wester Kiranov: I am going to leave before my brain overloads. But this was a very lovely evening.
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Fefonz Quan: night Wester
Trevor Berensohn: Ah good to see you Wester
Mickorod Renard: bye |webster,,thanks
aurel Miles: night Wester
Corvuscorva Nightfire: g'night, Wester.
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm i wonder if that is their relationship to each other, ara
Trevor Berensohn: They seem to be dependent upon one another, but how... is my thought
Mickorod Renard: its just metaphorically speaking,,but,,sometimes of late,,if i sort of make a tear in my usual conciousness,,then what I percieve as being gets sucked into the void that i have created
arabella Ella: i dont think i am actually referring to relationship it is more like proximity in the sense of overlapping
Trevor Berensohn: mm to both of you =)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Trevor Berensohn: Mick I sear that sounds like the Dzogchen way of "cutting through"
Mickorod Renard: yes?,,never heard of that?
Fefonz Quan likes the word 'Dzogchen'
Trevor Berensohn: And I agree, ara, that they can be experienced simultaneously, or just one at a time
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, as in, "Why ar you wearin that ail toay? You look like such a Dzogchen!"
Trevor Berensohn: Oh wait, that's not it at all
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hehehe!
Trevor Berensohn: lol
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does sound great, though.
Fefonz Quan: :)
aurel Miles: tee hee
Trevor Berensohn: Dzogchen is a Bonpo practice
arabella Ella: Storm mentioned Dzogchen the other day and I had looked it up on line ... very interesting schism right? and sad too since there is conflict?
Mickorod Renard: hows it work then?
Fefonz Quan: sad?
arabella Ella: conflicts are always sad
arabella Ella: schisms too
Fefonz Quan: ah, about the retreat?
aurel Miles: i disagree
Trevor Berensohn: Conflict? Schism?
arabella Ella: yes Fef
aurel Miles: conflict is not always sad
Fefonz Quan: ara, you shuld give some background here
Trevor Berensohn: Wait I sooo missed something
Mickorod Renard: yes pls Ara
aurel Miles: if there were no conflict then there would be no resoultion
Trevor Berensohn: What what?
arabella Ella: i dont rreally know much to say much either
arabella Ella: just that it is another strand of buddhism
arabella Ella: from what i can gather
Mickorod Renard: Trev,,dig us out
arabella Ella: and each group sort of condemns the other and cannot tolerate the others ... and i think that sounds sad
arabella Ella: it also has to do with Dalai Lama
arabella Ella: but cant remember detaikls
Trevor Berensohn: Ummmm
Trevor Berensohn: welllll
Trevor Berensohn: lol
arabella Ella: go on Trev ... help me pls
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think Storm has written about this.
Mickorod Renard: grin
Corvuscorva Nightfire: somewhere...hmm
Trevor Berensohn: Actually, from my experience, one "side," if you will, did what's the sord...
Trevor Berensohn: *word
arabella Ella: Dzogchen split from Dalai Lama if I remember correctly and claim to be more authentic
Trevor Berensohn: like when you go on witch-hunts? I don' know he word.. it's not coming to me
arabella Ella: yes
Fefonz Quan: yes, i always feel some dissapointment finding that buddhist fight among themselvs like any others...
Mickorod Renard: guess we are all human
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm but the Dalai Lama has received & practices the Dzogchen lineage
Trevor Berensohn: There are different renderings of all of that
arabella Ella: what i said is from memory and my memory is very fallible
Trevor Berensohn: We culd have a whole history lesson on that
Mickorod Renard: I saw a video on the conflict
Fefonz Quan: well i found the email thread, itr is about Dorje Shugden practices, not Dzogchen
arabella Ella: thanks for the clarification Fef
arabella Ella: apologies to all for my fallible memory
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, the Nyingm & Bonpo are the only schools that officially practice Dzogchen
Trevor Berensohn: But the Kagyu and the Dalai Lama unofficially do, too lol
Fefonz Quan: glad to bring the buddhist peace back in order :)
arabella Ella: /smiles
Trevor Berensohn: That only leaves the Sakya that just don't lol
Trevor Berensohn: I think it's coz Dzogchen is a differnt process than sutra or tantra
Fefonz Quan: we should remember that though for us those are just different types of practice/phylosophy, in TIbet there are a lot of political forces involved around it
Trevor Berensohn: Oh, and a few ppl were persecuted at one time over the differences
Trevor Berensohn: I think it is a kinder, gentler debate now heh
Fefonz Quan: well, nobody escapes the spanish inquisition ;-)
Mickorod Renard: ok guys and gals,,I have to go home
Fefonz Quan: bYE mICK, TAKE CARE
Trevor Berensohn: Kk good to see you Mick
Fefonz Quan: (sorry caps)
Mickorod Renard: but its been good havin u all here
Trevor Berensohn: Wow yell it out, Fef =)
Mickorod Renard: and hope to see u all soon
Fefonz Quan: (caps trev, sorry... ;-))
Trevor Berensohn yawns
aurel Miles: THank you Mickenrod
aurel Miles: oops
Mickorod Renard: will the log come to me auto Fef?
aurel Miles: Mickorod
Mickorod Renard: np
Fefonz Quan: not sure Mick, i mostly take it inworld.
aurel Miles: i need to be off
Fefonz Quan: but it is supposed to
Mickorod Renard: ok thanks
Trevor Berensohn: kk good to see you all
aurel Miles: stuff to do - such as it is, although it is not late here
Mickorod Renard: I will sort it one way or another
aurel Miles: just dinner time
Trevor Berensohn: will do this again (4 times a day lol)
arabella Ella: i must go too very late here now nearly midnight
aurel Miles: bye!
arabella Ella: bye all nite nite
Fefonz Quan: bye ara :)
Mickorod Renard: cool,,bye folks thanks
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins. "bye, Ara!"
aurel Miles: bye all!
Fefonz Quan: you can loose the tail now mick :)
arabella Ella: oh and thanks Trev
Fefonz Quan: yes, thanks for teh talk Trev.
Trevor Berensohn get up (with a flair)
Trevor Berensohn: Oh thank you all
Fefonz Quan: and bye aurel
aurel Miles: Bye Fefonz
Trevor Berensohn: Thank you, aurel
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Aurel, TRevor
aurel Miles: for what?
aurel Miles: nice to be here
Trevor Berensohn: for loosening me up enough to talk
Trevor Berensohn: =)
aurel Miles: take care all -
aurel Miles: oh, good!
Trevor Berensohn: later
aurel Miles: i was feeling like an obstacle today
aurel Miles: so that makes me feel good
Trevor Berensohn: Ha not at all
aurel Miles: Bye!
Trevor Berensohn: kk
Trevor Berensohn: Or, "Watch out, haha
Fefonz Quan: Hey Corvi :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Fefonz.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: who is guardian?
Fefonz Quan: Mick
Trevor Berensohn: I stil hope didn' open can of, um worms
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
Fefonz Quan: who, you?
Trevor Berensohn: mmhmm
Fefonz Quan: in what way?
Trevor Berensohn: Oh, that "schism" or whatever comes up, sooner or later lol
Trevor Berensohn: It's the old, but which came first? game to my mind
Fefonz Quan: no, not at all. there are several people here that practice some traditions regularly
Trevor Berensohn: "I got dibs on the Dzogchen practice!" "No, I do!"
Trevor Berensohn: lol
Fefonz Quan: dibs?
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Fefonz Quan: (sounds like little furry creatures :))
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Trevor Berensohn: It's lke which group wants to seem more "right" or something? I dunno
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
Fefonz Quan: (climbing on the poor Dzogchen practitioner)
Trevor Berensohn: Or "authentic" yuck
Trevor Berensohn: Haha Tribbles!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
Fefonz Quan: yeah!
Trevor Berensohn: Oh whoops I just looked at the front of my AV
Fefonz Quan: well people just talked about it, i don't think any of today participants are involved in such debates
Trevor Berensohn: Why didn't someone tell me I was wearing these fool things?
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm sme of my teacers have been
Trevor Berensohn: One was the abbot of a monastery
Fefonz Quan: we respect your choice of appearance Ttrev L:)
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm. "Choice" of "appearance"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's quieter here now.
Trevor Berensohn: Good topic!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: /em nods,
Trevor Berensohn scribbles (illegible) note to self
Trevor Berensohn: Aaahhhhhhh
Fefonz Quan: (thought we discussed a little of it today ;-))
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Trevor Berensohn: Oh yes
Trevor Berensohn: She got the ball rolling indeed
Trevor Berensohn: fun!
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, grinning.
Fefonz Quan: is teh recording still on?

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.


Trevor Berensohn: Can I ask something? Everyone's opinion on somethng?
aurel Miles: why is that? they can't hurt me
Mickorod Renard: yes pls
Wol Euler: fire away
arabella Ella: yes Trev
Fefonz Quan nods
aurel Miles nods
Wester Kiranov: please do
Trevor Berensohn: Well.. My daily practice is pretty much Tibetan Bonpo
arabella Ella: yes
Trevor Berensohn: It's very similar to PaB, but not exactly the same
Mickorod Renard: can u explain more?
arabella Ella intruiged
Trevor Berensohn: It seems t me tht I am doing much the same as PaB, but my terminology is very specifically Tibetan
Trevor Berensohn: So I don't share much here
Trevor Berensohn: Someties I wonder if I should even be coming here
arabella Ella would like to hear more
Wol Euler raises an eyebrow
Mickorod Renard: your experience can be very rewarding for us
Trevor Berensohn: Though I enjoy, and relate to all of you so
arabella Ella: ]about Tibetan Bonpo
Fefonz Quan: it might be refreshing to you and us if you share your experiences in a new terminology
Trevor Berensohn: Hmm my practice, in a nutshell is basically to let each moment of experience arise,
Mickorod Renard: some extra understanding may help some of us struggling in PaB
Trevor Berensohn: and just be present in awareness of the emty essnce that is giving rise to that moment of experience
Wol Euler: what is the cause of your discomfort, Trevor? where does that "should" come from?
Trevor Berensohn: Well, it's a very specific way of looking at this whole Being thing, but we don't call it Being at all
Trevor Berensohn: Howeve our description of the experience matches PaB's pretty spot on
Fefonz Quan: yes, sounds like it
Mickorod Renard: what do you call it Trev?
arabella Ella: so what do you call it trev?
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm just being present in the natural mind, and the other way of experiencing, the normal mind
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Mickorod Renard: I think it would be right for me to say that most of us here have quite diferent religious backgrounds
Fefonz Quan: well i fnid being is so elusive here too...
Fefonz Quan: Being*
Trevor Berensohn: I think I get stuck on the Being terminology
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i think that having more than one hypothesis is better than only having one.
Mickorod Renard: well, I do too
Fefonz Quan: me too, so i avoid it very often :)
Trevor Berensohn: because every definition I've found, suggests something concrete
Trevor Berensohn: So I refrain fromcommen most ften
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Trevor Berensohn: & consider solitary practice (in SL- Ha!)
Fefonz Quan: (or i start a group of sessin themes with pema in order to make others confused too ;-))
Wester Kiranov: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahah
Trevor Berensohn: (Heh)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: perfect!
Mickorod Renard: but being seems to work well in that it can be accepted by folk from diferent backgrounds..if u know what I mean
Fefonz Quan: Trevor, i would guess the term 'Being' is confusing to many of us, but we try to share experiences rather than theoretical accurate words/concepts
Wester Kiranov: so what's your question trev?
Mickorod Renard: I think you make valuable contributions here Trev
Trevor Berensohn: I guess I'm just not sure how involved I should be.. I don't want to muddy the water any
Wol Euler: oh please :)
Wol Euler: as if your bonpo could be any muddier than
Mickorod Renard: you wont muddy anything
Wol Euler: onigokko
Fefonz Quan likes Mudy Waters :)
Trevor Berensohn: Was just hoping that feedback would help me um chart my course in this
Trevor Berensohn: Hahaha
Wol Euler: stop
arabella Ella: LOL
Wester Kiranov: :D
Wester Kiranov: needed that
arabella Ella: the onigokko is so so funny
Wol Euler: :)
sophia Placebo: that was sudden
Mickorod Renard: it would be nice sometime if you could give an insite into your understanding,,it may help us grasp being
Mickorod Renard: oops
Trevor Berensohn: and just in time heh
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Wol Euler: I would be sorry to see you leave, Trevor, especially if you did so because you thought you were confusing us.
sophia Placebo: g2g , see you all
aurel Miles: i am always confused
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm I've just begun receiving ths linege.. should ask my teacher how much I should share
arabella Ella: I agree with you there Wol
Mickorod Renard: bye sophie
Wester Kiranov: bye sophia
Wol Euler: bye sophia
aurel Miles: it is my natural state
Trevor Berensohn: good to see you sophia
Wester Kiranov: agree with wol
aurel Miles: bye sophia
Fefonz Quan: bye Sophia :)
arabella Ella: Trev, i think we all enjoy your company here
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I was beginning to enjoy your company
sophia Placebo: good to hear from you too trev
Trevor Berensohn: normal, aurel ;-)
Trevor Berensohn: heh
aurel Miles smiles
Wol Euler: could you tell us of direct experience, perhaps, rather than of the philosophy that got you there?
Trevor Berensohn: I bet you're naturally more aware than you're, um, aware of
Fefonz Quan: I would say you've got some way to go before you can take part in teh PaB great confusers here :)
Wol Euler: if you feel that you shouldn't speak of hte philosophy...
Fefonz Quan: competition*
Wester Kiranov: I think we all are here to help each other unmuddy our water
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Trevor Berensohn: Hahaha
Corvuscorva Nightfire: or..to listen as we each unmuddy our own!
Trevor Berensohn: Well te Bonpo seem to be all about practices
Fefonz Quan: (or throw mud across the pool :))
Wester Kiranov: or find that there isn't any difference between our own and others'
Trevor Berensohn: that remove obstacles to our awareness of each moment of all this
Trevor Berensohn: more than philosophy or anything
Mickorod Renard: nice
Fefonz Quan: that sounds very interesting Trevor.
Mickorod Renard: we need Bonpo
Trevor Berensohn: just like this PaB practice... it gets you in the zone
Trevor Berensohn: and hels you tay thre increasingly
Fefonz Quan: and many people brought Biddhist/Taoist/Christian/other concepts around
Wester Kiranov: is this a kind of buddhism, or is it the original tibetan religion? or something else?
Wester Kiranov: just to get feel for the background
Trevor Berensohn: Oh. It was the indigent belief/practice of Tibet before Buddhism came there
Mickorod Renard: wow
Trevor Berensohn: The Bonpo claim it came from Western Tibet/Pakisan, like 18 thousand years ago or so
arabella Ella: cool
Wester Kiranov: ok
Trevor Berensohn: But their main thoughts on the ultimate nature of things, and enlightenment, seem to be in line with Buddhism
Mickorod Renard: how long have you been practicing Trev?
Trevor Berensohn: Well.. just a year & a half, formally
Trevor Berensohn: But I had a practice since I was a child, that is the exact same practice as theirs
Mickorod Renard: and has it been an easyish journey?
Trevor Berensohn: It was maddening until I found others who had similar experiences
Trevor Berensohn: But once I met some Buddhist & Bonpo lams, it as bee incresingly smooth
Trevor Berensohn: *lamas
Mickorod Renard: I think looking for like minded souls is why we are here
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: fantastic
Trevor Berensohn: mmhmm, that seems to be a common thread
arabella Ella nods
Trevor Berensohn: Anyway, thank you so much for your responses; I'm less hesitant to speak of my experience here now
Wol Euler: good :)
arabella Ella: may I ask Trev what were the key motivating forces for you to take on Bonpo
Mickorod Renard: breaking through the conditioning of western style life is dificult for me
Trevor Berensohn: Ah yes Mick, I think only a personal practice can keep helping with that
Mickorod Renard: by personal practice,,do you mean something more intimate than what we do here?
Trevor Berensohn: Oh! I woul say this IS a great personal practice
Trevor Berensohn: ara, that would be a long story heh
Trevor Berensohn: But let's just say that it's th only pproac to spirituality/enmlightenment that seems to encompass everything
Mickorod Renard: thats reassuring Trev,,thanks
arabella Ella: ok Trev but whever you are happy to share your motivation and have time just let me know
Mickorod Renard: yes,,I am very interested
Mickorod Renard: sometimes looking from a slightly diferent angle just helps
Mickorod Renard: so you could contribute well, i am sure
Trevor Berensohn: Well when I was young, I would just drop my emotions and "self", and directly know.. much like PaB actually
Trevor Berensohn: In this state of mind, many times I would know things about ppl, or situations, that were pretty deep
Mickorod Renard: I am mid 50's and only just learning the benefits to that Trev
arabella Ella: amazing
Trevor Berensohn: I got kicked out of my church coz would't cal it "god" thugh
Trevor Berensohn: *though
Trevor Berensohn: Heheh, same thing, I think, Mick... You describe similar results, indeed
Fefonz Quan: sounds like a kick in the right direction :)
Trevor Berensohn: Haha
Fefonz Quan: (btw - is there a dream workshop today?)
Mickorod Renard: yikes,,not sure
Trevor Berensohn: Dunno
arabella Ella: if i remember correctly i think dreams is today Tuesday
arabella Ella: Gilles is Wed
Trevor Berensohn: What time?
arabella Ella: Phenemo is Fri
arabella Ella: 2pm SL time
Wol Euler: most are at 2pm
Trevor Berensohn: uh oh
arabella Ella: but i may be wrong
Fefonz Quan: 2pm SLT, but please get back to the current discussion :0
Fefonz Quan: :)
arabella Ella: so PaB at 1pm
arabella Ella: Kira at 2pm
Mickorod Renard: I struggle with God too Trev,,to some degree I am reluctant to deviate due to loyalty
arabella Ella: but we often go on here with this discussion
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm even my Tibetan lamas hae suggsted tat I'mdeluded, because I'm not having realizations in the "right" order heh
aurel Miles: i know God exists because i struggle with him/her/them
Mickorod Renard: but my concept orf God doesnt fit in with Christian belief
Trevor Berensohn: But the Bonpo just say, "Yes, ihappens differently for everyone" heh
Trevor Berensohn: Ah it sounds lkie in some ways it does, Mick.. in some ways not?
arabella Ella likes that ... happens differently ... cool
Mickorod Renard: If one has an encounter,,it is deeply personal and no doubt individual
Fefonz Quan: encounter suggests someone else is involved
Wol Euler: God perhaps? or Being?
Mickorod Renard: mmmmm spiritual encounter
Wol Euler: or your inner self...
Trevor Berensohn: hmmm
arabella Ella: all of the above
Fefonz Quan: well God is not on my list, and Being is not someone (and surely not else ;-))
Mickorod Renard: hmmmmm
Trevor Berensohn: just recognition, awareness of awareness itself?
Fefonz Quan: i go with you, Trev
Mickorod Renard: yes,,an awareness is proberbly the best description
Trevor Berensohn: Coz what really comes to know itself in this kind of practice?
Trevor Berensohn: Certainly not that normal, everyday sort of mind
Trevor Berensohn: It seems to oly be ble to make stuff up lol
Trevor Berensohn: So what is this Being?
Mickorod Renard: and our geographical and upbringing has an effect on our perceptions
Wol Euler: yes (answer to Trevor)
Trevor Berensohn: Is it No-Thing, giving rise to the appearance of Every-Thing?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: our attempt to make a something out of nothing?
Trevor Berensohn: I'm not sure
Fefonz Quan: suchness, emptiness, you name it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: i don't care.
Trevor Berensohn: And I guess that's what we're exploring here lol
Fefonz Quan: yep!
Trevor Berensohn: =)
Mickorod Renard: Pema has said something about the emptyness,,that is also inportant
Wester Kiranov: and the fullness...
Mickorod Renard: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire thinks...
arabella Ella: and timelessless too
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, I thnk that because of that emptiness, there can be the fullness of experience
Wester Kiranov: yes
Trevor Berensohn: Or did I just make that up
Trevor Berensohn: lol don't remember exactly
Mickorod Renard: sounds good to me Trev
Fefonz Quan: (Corvi reminded me of some quote i once saw: "if no mind - nothing matters, if no matter - i don't mind")
arabella Ella: seems like conujunction repaces 'either/or' and we arrive at empty and full
Mickorod Renard: and besides,,cos of all the noise in life,,making an emptiness in our conciousness is a way,,for me anyway,,to take on what i shut out
Trevor Berensohn: Like Dakini was always saying... Beyond
Mickorod Renard: are you familiar with the living water idea Trev?
Trevor Berensohn: Conjunction? Can you explain a bit of that?
Wester Kiranov: well I do find that opposites tend to claapse into each other and be the same ara
aurel Miles: I agree Wester
aurel Miles: wholeheartedly
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm no Mick
Wester Kiranov: which means I must be very awake as I am sooo tired
Trevor Berensohn: Awww Wester
Wol Euler excuses herself quietly and slips away to bed. Goodnight all, take care.
Trevor Berensohn: Nite Wol
Mickorod Renard: bye Wol
Trevor Berensohn: Sleep well
Fefonz Quan: (according to wester fefonz is on the way to enlightenment :))
arabella Ella: conjunction ... as in emptines and fullness merging together crisscrossing and overlapping
Fefonz Quan: bye Wol :)
arabella Ella: nite Wol
Wester Kiranov: I am going to leave before my brain overloads. But this was a very lovely evening.
Wester Kiranov: namaste
Fefonz Quan: night Wester
Trevor Berensohn: Ah good to see you Wester
Mickorod Renard: bye |webster,,thanks
aurel Miles: night Wester
Corvuscorva Nightfire: g'night, Wester.
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm i wonder if that is their relationship to each other, ara
Trevor Berensohn: They seem to be dependent upon one another, but how... is my thought
Mickorod Renard: its just metaphorically speaking,,but,,sometimes of late,,if i sort of make a tear in my usual conciousness,,then what I percieve as being gets sucked into the void that i have created
arabella Ella: i dont think i am actually referring to relationship it is more like proximity in the sense of overlapping
Trevor Berensohn: mm to both of you =)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Trevor Berensohn: Mick I sear that sounds like the Dzogchen way of "cutting through"
Mickorod Renard: yes?,,never heard of that?
Fefonz Quan likes the word 'Dzogchen'
Trevor Berensohn: And I agree, ara, that they can be experienced simultaneously, or just one at a time
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, as in, "Why ar you wearin that ail toay? You look like such a Dzogchen!"
Trevor Berensohn: Oh wait, that's not it at all
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hehehe!
Trevor Berensohn: lol
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does sound great, though.
Fefonz Quan: :)
aurel Miles: tee hee
Trevor Berensohn: Dzogchen is a Bonpo practice
arabella Ella: Storm mentioned Dzogchen the other day and I had looked it up on line ... very interesting schism right? and sad too since there is conflict?
Mickorod Renard: hows it work then?
Fefonz Quan: sad?
arabella Ella: conflicts are always sad
arabella Ella: schisms too
Fefonz Quan: ah, about the retreat?
aurel Miles: i disagree
Trevor Berensohn: Conflict? Schism?
arabella Ella: yes Fef
aurel Miles: conflict is not always sad
Fefonz Quan: ara, you shuld give some background here
Trevor Berensohn: Wait I sooo missed something
Mickorod Renard: yes pls Ara
aurel Miles: if there were no conflict then there would be no resoultion
Trevor Berensohn: What what?
arabella Ella: i dont rreally know much to say much either
arabella Ella: just that it is another strand of buddhism
arabella Ella: from what i can gather
Mickorod Renard: Trev,,dig us out
arabella Ella: and each group sort of condemns the other and cannot tolerate the others ... and i think that sounds sad
arabella Ella: it also has to do with Dalai Lama
arabella Ella: but cant remember detaikls
Trevor Berensohn: Ummmm
Trevor Berensohn: welllll
Trevor Berensohn: lol
arabella Ella: go on Trev ... help me pls
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think Storm has written about this.
Mickorod Renard: grin
Corvuscorva Nightfire: somewhere...hmm
Trevor Berensohn: Actually, from my experience, one "side," if you will, did what's the sord...
Trevor Berensohn: *word
arabella Ella: Dzogchen split from Dalai Lama if I remember correctly and claim to be more authentic
Trevor Berensohn: like when you go on witch-hunts? I don' know he word.. it's not coming to me
arabella Ella: yes
Fefonz Quan: yes, i always feel some dissapointment finding that buddhist fight among themselvs like any others...
Mickorod Renard: guess we are all human
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm but the Dalai Lama has received & practices the Dzogchen lineage
Trevor Berensohn: There are different renderings of all of that
arabella Ella: what i said is from memory and my memory is very fallible
Trevor Berensohn: We culd have a whole history lesson on that
Mickorod Renard: I saw a video on the conflict
Fefonz Quan: well i found the email thread, itr is about Dorje Shugden practices, not Dzogchen
arabella Ella: thanks for the clarification Fef
arabella Ella: apologies to all for my fallible memory
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Trevor Berensohn: Yes, the Nyingm & Bonpo are the only schools that officially practice Dzogchen
Trevor Berensohn: But the Kagyu and the Dalai Lama unofficially do, too lol
Fefonz Quan: glad to bring the buddhist peace back in order :)
arabella Ella: /smiles
Trevor Berensohn: That only leaves the Sakya that just don't lol
Trevor Berensohn: I think it's coz Dzogchen is a differnt process than sutra or tantra
Fefonz Quan: we should remember that though for us those are just different types of practice/phylosophy, in TIbet there are a lot of political forces involved around it
Trevor Berensohn: Oh, and a few ppl were persecuted at one time over the differences
Trevor Berensohn: I think it is a kinder, gentler debate now heh
Fefonz Quan: well, nobody escapes the spanish inquisition ;-)
Mickorod Renard: ok guys and gals,,I have to go home
Fefonz Quan: bYE mICK, TAKE CARE
Trevor Berensohn: Kk good to see you Mick
Fefonz Quan: (sorry caps)
Mickorod Renard: but its been good havin u all here
Trevor Berensohn: Wow yell it out, Fef =)
Mickorod Renard: and hope to see u all soon
Fefonz Quan: (caps trev, sorry... ;-))
Trevor Berensohn yawns
aurel Miles: THank you Mickenrod
aurel Miles: oops
Mickorod Renard: will the log come to me auto Fef?
aurel Miles: Mickorod
Mickorod Renard: np
Fefonz Quan: not sure Mick, i mostly take it inworld.
aurel Miles: i need to be off
Fefonz Quan: but it is supposed to
Mickorod Renard: ok thanks
Trevor Berensohn: kk good to see you all
aurel Miles: stuff to do - such as it is, although it is not late here
Mickorod Renard: I will sort it one way or another
aurel Miles: just dinner time
Trevor Berensohn: will do this again (4 times a day lol)
arabella Ella: i must go too very late here now nearly midnight
aurel Miles: bye!
arabella Ella: bye all nite nite
Fefonz Quan: bye ara :)
Mickorod Renard: cool,,bye folks thanks
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins. "bye, Ara!"
aurel Miles: bye all!
Fefonz Quan: you can loose the tail now mick :)
arabella Ella: oh and thanks Trev
Fefonz Quan: yes, thanks for teh talk Trev.
Trevor Berensohn get up (with a flair)
Trevor Berensohn: Oh thank you all
Fefonz Quan: and bye aurel
aurel Miles: Bye Fefonz
Trevor Berensohn: Thank you, aurel
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Bye, Aurel, TRevor
aurel Miles: for what?
aurel Miles: nice to be here
Trevor Berensohn: for loosening me up enough to talk
Trevor Berensohn: =)
aurel Miles: take care all -
aurel Miles: oh, good!
Trevor Berensohn: later
aurel Miles: i was feeling like an obstacle today
aurel Miles: so that makes me feel good
Trevor Berensohn: Ha not at all
aurel Miles: Bye!
Trevor Berensohn: kk
Trevor Berensohn: Or, "Watch out, haha
Fefonz Quan: Hey Corvi :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Fefonz.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: who is guardian?
Fefonz Quan: Mick
Trevor Berensohn: I stil hope didn' open can of, um worms
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
Fefonz Quan: who, you?
Trevor Berensohn: mmhmm
Fefonz Quan: in what way?
Trevor Berensohn: Oh, that "schism" or whatever comes up, sooner or later lol
Trevor Berensohn: It's the old, but which came first? game to my mind
Fefonz Quan: no, not at all. there are several people here that practice some traditions regularly
Trevor Berensohn: "I got dibs on the Dzogchen practice!" "No, I do!"
Trevor Berensohn: lol
Fefonz Quan: dibs?
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles.
Fefonz Quan: (sounds like little furry creatures :))
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Trevor Berensohn: It's lke which group wants to seem more "right" or something? I dunno
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
Fefonz Quan: (climbing on the poor Dzogchen practitioner)
Trevor Berensohn: Or "authentic" yuck
Trevor Berensohn: Haha Tribbles!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yeah
Fefonz Quan: yeah!
Trevor Berensohn: Oh whoops I just looked at the front of my AV
Fefonz Quan: well people just talked about it, i don't think any of today participants are involved in such debates
Trevor Berensohn: Why didn't someone tell me I was wearing these fool things?
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm sme of my teacers have been
Trevor Berensohn: One was the abbot of a monastery
Fefonz Quan: we respect your choice of appearance Ttrev L:)
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles
Trevor Berensohn: Hmmm. "Choice" of "appearance"
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's quieter here now.
Trevor Berensohn: Good topic!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: /em nods,
Trevor Berensohn scribbles (illegible) note to self
Trevor Berensohn: Aaahhhhhhh
Fefonz Quan: (thought we discussed a little of it today ;-))
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hehe
Trevor Berensohn: Oh yes
Trevor Berensohn: She got the ball rolling indeed
Trevor Berensohn: fun!
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods, grinning.
Fefonz Quan: is teh recording still on?