2013.03.11 19:00 - What Stops?

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal, joined by Aph, Cat, Druth, Eos, Korel, San, and Stevenaia.

The first few lines of the session were not gathered by the auto-listener. Cat and I were sharing our feelings about the day, and she expressed that hers was busy...

Eliza Madrigal: very much relate :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: had an ultrasound last week and they have found gallstones and cysts in my breasts
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, goodness
Catrinamonblue Resident: so I now have a mammogram set for this Thirs and an appt to see the surgeon on April 4 :(
Eliza Madrigal: health matters seldom wait for a convenient time to be addressed
Catrinamonblue Resident: no kidding :)
Eliza Madrigal: wish you well in all these appointments
Catrinamonblue Resident: thanks :) as I said to my sister I'm growing lumps and bumps :)
Eliza Madrigal smiles
Catrinamonblue Resident: it could be worse, these are more of an annoyance than anything
Eliza Madrigal: good to follow up with in any case
Catrinamonblue Resident: yes for sure
Eliza Madrigal: I avoided an appointment for over a year because I felt I just couldn't handle any "news" at that time, yet what a relief to go and find that the matter I'd worried about was a deep tissue injury
Eliza Madrigal: didn't realize those could last for years!
Catrinamonblue Resident: I didn't know that either, hope things are better now :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Druth
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, yes... but wished I'd gone to be relieved of the worry I'd added, sooner :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Druth :)
druth Vlodovic: hi guys
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eos Amaterasu: Hi gals
Catrinamonblue Resident: I Eos :)
druth Vlodovic: hey eos
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Eos :)

Eliza Madrigal: Shall we consider "What stops?"

Eos Amaterasu: there's nothing stopping us :-)
Eliza Madrigal smiles.... true
Eliza Madrigal: when health concerns come up, surely other things stop in a way, put into a kind of perspective

--BELL--

Eos Amaterasu: hmm, yes, context can wipe away entire universes of concern :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: brb stopping to chase kids off to bed
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)) Sure
Eos Amaterasu: sounds like a hyper thing to do :-)
Eliza Madrigal laughs... was thinking that
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: picturing broom
druth Vlodovic: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNBL5OMeuno
Eliza Madrigal clicks
Eliza Madrigal: chasing soundtrack?
druth Vlodovic: :)


Eliza Madrigal: I'd never heard the term that came up on the photography page I shared at guardians session "aesthetic arrest" ... but really liked it ... felt it was along the lines of bracketing, and in philosophy some notion of "veil of ignorance"
Eos Amaterasu: say or show more?
druth Vlodovic: ignorance as a method of opening
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Catrinamonblue Resident: back :) listens
Eliza Madrigal: the veil of ignorance is a place of beginning to think about a situation, before the situation and before various factors arise
Eos Amaterasu: what is being ignored?
Eliza Madrigal: yet it is created within the argument I guess, so the situation is there, but in order to approach it there is a kind of clear slate

Eos Amaterasu: like bowing?
Eliza Madrigal: had not considered that... but, yes hm
druth Vlodovic: ??
Eos Amaterasu: is that a kind of stopping?
Eliza Madrigal: stopping to honor, acknowledge
Eliza Madrigal: recognize
Eos Amaterasu: don't mind the gap
druth Vlodovic: or picking a cushion

druth Vlodovic: hi aph :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: hi Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi druth, cat, Eos and Eliza
Eos Amaterasu: Hi Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: a pink balloon
Eliza Madrigal: :)

druth Vlodovic: so what stops there is the busy mind
Eos Amaterasu: maybe the busy mind doesn't stop (so easily), but the holding on to each of its busynesses might flicker
Eliza Madrigal: an interruption in the goings on, and on
druth Vlodovic: busyness is a fullness in itself, the content hardly matters
Eos Amaterasu: like, what is it so special about the 90 seconds? what do we stop there (if we do)?

Catrinamonblue Resident: would stopping be like a deep breath before you jump in?
druth Vlodovic: ohh, let's watch and see what we come up with :)
Aphrodite Macbain: I wonder what kind of an interruption might work best. I like the idea of an aesthetic one
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: here we are :::90 seconds::::
Eos Amaterasu: co it us interrupted

--BELL--

Aphrodite Macbain: :/
Eliza Madrigal: Hello San :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi San
Santoshima Resident: greetings :)
Aphrodite Macbain: waves at san
Eos Amaterasu zooms the view... hi san

druth Vlodovic: anticipation, connections and associations in my mind, the need to say something
Eos Amaterasu listens
druth Vlodovic: clear quietand penetrating bells work aph :)
druth Vlodovic: hi san
Aphrodite Macbain: sounds like you're feeling better!
Aphrodite Macbain: bells?
Eliza Madrigal feels an aesthetic appreciation for the pause... shared presence, pleasurable
Catrinamonblue Resident: likes to stop and think :)

Aphrodite Macbain: to stop my thoughts I feel I need to look down, away from the screen
Eos Amaterasu: and....?
druth Vlodovic: a change of venue
Catrinamonblue Resident: I guess I'm not trying to stop my thoughts but trying to stop and examine them in some way in order to let them go on their way
Aphrodite Macbain: not think Eos
Catrinamonblue Resident: and not obsess on them

druth Vlodovic: what did eos stop?
Santoshima Resident: traffic?
druth Vlodovic: :)
Eos Amaterasu put up a large Stop sign
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eos Amaterasu: thoughts did not pay attention :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: they don't do they
Eos Amaterasu: no
Eos Amaterasu: I think we delude ourselves thinking we think our thoughts
Eos Amaterasu: they actually just go on their merry way

druth Vlodovic: you can't drop memory if you plan to share!
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Catrinamonblue Resident: agrees with Eos
Aphrodite Macbain: you cant drop memory. period
Eos Amaterasu: lethe: river of forgetfulness
Eliza Madrigal: maybe not what you want to share, but still sharing available
Eos Amaterasu: a-letheia: truth (in classical Greek), come out of hiddenness

Aphrodite Macbain: truth is out there in the open?
druth Vlodovic: presumes truth is discovered rather than created
Eos Amaterasu: the palm is open
Aphrodite Macbain: to give or receive?
Eos Amaterasu: maybe truth is let emerge?
Catrinamonblue Resident: truth is always there to be found by those who seek

Eos Amaterasu: do you think the world is that responsive?
Aphrodite Macbain: to whom?
Eliza Madrigal: if we're responsive
Eos Amaterasu: hmm, I think the world is that true....
Eos Amaterasu: mutual bowing
druth Vlodovic: perhaps we have to stop hiding ourselves from the truth
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Eos Amaterasu: (could be painful)
druth Vlodovic: or share our truth with the world?
Aphrodite Macbain: seeing reality (truth?) as it is takes a lot of courage
druth Vlodovic: co-create
Eliza Madrigal: my sense of truly stopping is that the opening is sight of ourselves, whether in another, our world, ourselves... maybe ourselves in a wider way

Catrinamonblue Resident: the breath before we drop
Aphrodite Macbain: seeing ourselves requires stopping?
Catrinamonblue Resident: i think so Aph
Aphrodite Macbain: in front of a mirror?
Eos Amaterasu: you stop because it doesn't
Eliza Madrigal: not quite seeing what we 'want to see' but appreciating cultivating capacity to see / be seen
druth Vlodovic: so you can't know who you are and where you are going at the same time? :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Aphrodite Macbain: doesn't one define the other?
Eos Amaterasu: "I seem to be a verb"
Aphrodite Macbain: or at least gets shaped by the other
druth Vlodovic: :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: not necessarily
Eliza Madrigal: mirrors the other, perhaps... which isn't quite defining?
Aphrodite Macbain: reflects
Catrinamonblue Resident: do you really need a mirror to see yourself?
Aphrodite Macbain: where I am going affects who I am

druth Vlodovic: maybe we should do the drop without stopping and see what happens
Eos Amaterasu: ok

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal opens palms to gather reports :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: I always take that breath to slow down before thinking, it's my stop and can't seem to do without it
Aphrodite Macbain: It got messy
druth Vlodovic: lol, couldn't do it,at first it was flowing, then it was like juggling, then I started dropping balls
Eos Amaterasu: kind of a high energy state, I found.... dropping in a shower, rainburst.... with each drop
Eliza Madrigal: *nice* ... even messiness :))
druth Vlodovic: messy drops :)
Aphrodite Macbain: all over the floor of my mind

Eliza Madrigal: I had images of basketball in mind somehow.... wondering about the amazing skill and speed and the way a player must take stops but one can't see them
Eliza Madrigal: there is surveying going on
Eos Amaterasu: wild open attention
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
druth Vlodovic: keeping track of everything but stopping to see as well
druth Vlodovic: isn't this looking at normal thought?
Eliza Madrigal: at times.... state of flow or when someone is "in their element" ?
Santoshima Resident: what's normal?
Aphrodite Macbain: keeping track of everything but stopping to see as well? Not normal for me.

Aphrodite Macbain: I have given up multi tasking for Lent
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
druth Vlodovic: attention on the outside instead of the inside,to the extent that a conversation is outside
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: How can one be all seeing and focused at the same time?
Catrinamonblue Resident: a mother cooking dinner and keeping an eye on the kids in the next room
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: maybe mothers develop this ability
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)

Eliza Madrigal: sense of mastery... as with anyone who dedicates themselves to an art?
druth Vlodovic: we pay attention to many things we don't know we are seeing
Santoshima Resident: yes
Santoshima Resident: to eliza
Aphrodite Macbain: and vise versa druth
Eliza Madrigal: that's an interesting thought Druth... would you take that a bit further?
druth Vlodovic: just seems we are always multi-minded unless we take steps
druth Vlodovic: driving is a good example
druth Vlodovic: all the things weknow and react to,better sometimes if we don't think about them
Eos Amaterasu: we are a society of attentions

Eliza Madrigal: Hi Kori :)
druth Vlodovic: and distractions
druth Vlodovic: hi kori
Korel Laloix: Heya
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Kori
Aphrodite Macbain: our brain automatically edits out things that aren't neessary to accomplish a task
Eos Amaterasu: hi Korel
Aphrodite Macbain: Hiy KOri
druth Vlodovic: or even uses information without bringing it to our attention
Eliza Madrigal: does it edit them out or are they stored somewhere
Aphrodite Macbain: yes- we can work on automatic
Aphrodite Macbain: It removes them from our attention

druth Vlodovic: so maybe we never stop, just shift focus
Aphrodite Macbain: I dont know where it is stored
Aphrodite Macbain: if it is stored
Eos Amaterasu: shifting focus
Eos Amaterasu: the shift is the place
druth Vlodovic: is dropping merely an illusion, or delusion?
Aphrodite Macbain: we would have a lot of junk in our memory - would need to dump stuff in the trash occasionally

Eos Amaterasu: dropping, in the sense of shift, seems to happen anyway
Aphrodite Macbain: It is a concept
Aphrodite Macbain: a thought experiment
Eos Amaterasu: is it?
Aphrodite Macbain: what else could it be?
Eos Amaterasu: dropping as a thought experiment.... as a non-thought experiment
druth Vlodovic: clearing the table?
Eliza Madrigal: noticing something happening and tuning into that
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Santoshima Resident: why ask? ... find out!
Aphrodite Macbain: is that dropping or focusing?
druth Vlodovic: we are thinking that we are not thinking :)
Eos Amaterasu: try to not drop

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: tuning into the automatic thoughts that flit across the mind and giving them focus and attention before letting them go
druth Vlodovic: fail again :) a natural editing process gradually reduced contents of the mind until it looked like a drop
druth Vlodovic: bing?
Aphrodite Macbain: bang
druth Vlodovic: so what was tuning into the automatic thoughts like?
Catrinamonblue Resident: well that was the automatic thought :)
druth Vlodovic: lol

Aphrodite Macbain: for me it was what I normally do
Catrinamonblue Resident: which is?
druth Vlodovic listens
Aphrodite Macbain: chase thoughts
Santoshima Resident: really?
Aphrodite Macbain: follow them as they wander and branch off
Aphrodite Macbain: really
Aphrodite Macbain: It is not a choice
druth Vlodovic: where did they take you?
Aphrodite Macbain: It is the way my brain works
Aphrodite Macbain: to many places
Aphrodite Macbain: mostly I dont remember unless they are significant
Aphrodite Macbain: like daydreaming

druth Vlodovic: where were you while this was going on?
Aphrodite Macbain: I assumed the point of stopping is to stop those thoughts and drop what motivates them
Aphrodite Macbain: in front of my screen, why?
druth Vlodovic: lol
druth Vlodovic: in your mind I mean
Aphrodite Macbain: following the thoughts

druth Vlodovic: I have a spot I call "myself" that wanders through my mind
Aphrodite Macbain: yes, my observer
Eliza Madrigal: trying to stop them may actually make them more jittery
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
Aphrodite Macbain: :-D yes.
Catrinamonblue Resident: I think of it as allowing, looking and letting go at lest that is how I have been doing it
Eos Amaterasu: like dropping a bird
Aphrodite Macbain: to do that, I have to be aware of what I'm holding on to
Catrinamonblue Resident: as I look I become aware
Eos Amaterasu: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: quite different from analyzing, though that has its place
druth Vlodovic: maybe if you allow they will tell you
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
druth Vlodovic: or maybe it doesn't matter if they don't

druth Vlodovic: I remember when i started meditating I would put an iron clamp on my thoughts
druth Vlodovic: didn't do much for me :)
Aphrodite Macbain: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: I like Stim's line from Ways of Knowing... leading in simple meditations ... he would say "greet each thought with inclusive awareness".... sounded like inviting for tea
Aphrodite Macbain: iron camps are painful and block circulation
Catrinamonblue Resident: have always liked the mindfulness way of just allowing the thought and letting it go by
Eliza Madrigal: just noticing where the thoughts come from, rather than going along with where they are going, can sometimes help too :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: nods
druth Vlodovic: I think greeting them is more advanced technique,they sort of say hi tome,or just slip past
Eos Amaterasu: like watching restless kids at night
Catrinamonblue Resident: smiles
Eliza Madrigal: aw... nice image

druth Vlodovic: noticing where they come from, how do you do that?
Aphrodite Macbain: at night?
Eos Amaterasu: (reference to Cat herding her kids to bed.... :-)
Aphrodite Macbain: ah :-)
Eliza Madrigal: well we can try next pause? "see if you can"
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Eliza Madrigal: (that music isn't good for this exercise :P)
Catrinamonblue Resident: lol
Aphrodite Macbain: can what?
Eliza Madrigal: try to see if you can pay attention to thoughts arising
Eliza Madrigal: rather than where they are going
Aphrodite Macbain: ok good idea

--BELL--

Catrinamonblue Resident: like a deep well in the cool misty morning they rise to the surface to enjoy a moment in the sun, moving off to play in the wind as I sit on the edge of the well :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: aww
Catrinamonblue Resident: sometimes I get images rather than thought :)
Eos Amaterasu: thanks, gang, must drop off...
Eliza Madrigal: Night Eos, pleasant sleep
Catrinamonblue Resident: Bye Eos :)
Eliza Madrigal: ty

Aphrodite Macbain: My thoughts seem to come out of nowhere. Occasionally they are triggered by something exterior, but more often from interior- like dreams
Santoshima Resident: bye Eos
Eliza Madrigal: did they carry you away when trying this Aph? or as far away?
Aphrodite Macbain: Nite eos
Aphrodite Macbain: no, because another thought interrupted
Eliza Madrigal: cool that you could see that ^.^
Aphrodite Macbain: :-) . Turbulence

Aphrodite Macbain: nite san
Santoshima Resident: nite nite
Eliza Madrigal: great skirt San :) Night, thanks
Catrinamonblue Resident: Night San
druth Vlodovic: everything comes from some where, "dependant origination" :)
Santoshima Resident: thanks you eliza
Santoshima Resident: tulle

druth Vlodovic: first I was wondering about having thoughts arise, and had the memory of a news article on people having "auditory illusions" in a sound proof room,then I found myself making thoughts out of logic , finally I realized that I had closed my eyes to block out a distraction, and that the feelings and the idea of it being a distraction were both thoughts, and they came from a bit of personal history and previous ideas,had images of whales in there too, from "arising"
Eliza Madrigal: :))
Eliza Madrigal: my goodness :)
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: nice druth
Eliza Madrigal: so relate to that sort of train
Eliza Madrigal: though this time, as I looked at the back door where the thoughts might have come from they seemed to dissipate as soon as emerging

druth Vlodovic: as for the well, I sort of had an image of a dark sort of floor from which things came
Aphrodite Macbain: whales..
Eliza Madrigal: ah, mine was a dark door
Aphrodite Macbain: dark as in unknown or hidden?
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
druth Vlodovic: but it was made up of many things,and dark webbing of "too much to draw"
Aphrodite Macbain: from the well?
Aphrodite Macbain: you have that to think about as you lie awake
Eliza Madrigal: visually dark... yes how interesting the three images... a bit like dream circle :)
druth Vlodovic: mindy
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Stevenaia :)

Catrinamonblue Resident: the well holds many things but I think we can allow things in their own time, not have to draw them up
stevenaia Michinaga: waves
Catrinamonblue Resident: Hi Steven
Eliza Madrigal: the main thing was that there was such satisfaction in feeling no pressure to complete the thoughts
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Stevenaia
stevenaia Michinaga: :) sorry to be so late
Eliza Madrigal: and I felt an edge of deep affection somehow
Catrinamonblue Resident: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: intersesting. a warmth

Eliza Madrigal: I'll post the session pretty quickly stevie... has been lovely
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
druth Vlodovic: I think our minds were being lazy and hashing in the backgrounds of our drawings rather than trying to show all of it to our limited consciousness
Eliza Madrigal: :) seemed freeing to me... as though not at the mercy of the thoughts and yet having no ill will :)

Eliza Madrigal: we did a "thoughts arising" exploration Stevie
stevenaia Michinaga: nice
stevenaia Michinaga: like awake dreaming
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: Night Aph :) wish you restfulness
Aphrodite Macbain: thanks Eliza, and everyone
Catrinamonblue Resident: Night Aph :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night Aph
druth Vlodovic: 'night all
Eliza Madrigal: time for me to scrub up before sleep .... sorry to miss you stevie
Aphrodite Macbain: nite!
Eliza Madrigal: Night Druth and Cat - thanks so much
stevenaia Michinaga: n.p. busy night
Catrinamonblue Resident: night all :)