2010.12.17 07:00 - Karma and Crocodiles

The Guardian for this meeting was Eliza Madrigal. The comments are by Eliza Madrigal.

Aphrodite Macbain: hI eLIZA!
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Aph :)) Nice surprise to see you this morning
Aphrodite Macbain: i THOUGHT i'D LOOK IN FOR A FEW MINUTES
Eliza Madrigal: How are you doing today, aside from looking very lovely...
Aphrodite Macbain: oops sorry about the CAPS
Eliza Madrigal: No worries :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Thanks. I felt like dressing up
Eliza Madrigal: I love the bell sleeves....
Eliza Madrigal: once had a suit which had those... they somehow force a different posture and feeling
Aphrodite Macbain: me too! the skirt moves so beautifully as well
Eliza Madrigal: whimsical and also 'fancy'
Aphrodite Macbain: How goes the retreat?
Lila Darkmatter: Hi guys :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Hi Lila
Aphrodite Macbain: wow you're impressive!
Eliza Madrigal: I'm very pleased with the retreat thus far... rather surprised that we've seemed to settle in easily...
Aphrodite Macbain: probably because it was planned well
Eliza Madrigal: I think that we're learning a lot about future retreats also
Aphrodite Macbain: yes?
Eliza Madrigal: one thing I'm considering is that there IS a need in the community to take these longer stretches...
Eliza Madrigal: and to share one at a time...
Eliza Madrigal: so we may consider doing 'day' retreats as well
Aphrodite Macbain: Hard to find that extended time in our busy lives
Eliza Madrigal: it may be possible for some who aren't able to set aside 3 days, to set aside 3 hrs
Eliza Madrigal: lots of room to play :)
Aphrodite Macbain: Yes- on a weekend perhaps
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: did you focus around a subject?
Eliza Madrigal: and maybe specifically focusing on needed questions or issues, if some would like
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Aphrodite Macbain: yes
Aphrodite Macbain: appreciative inquiry
Aphrodite Macbain: open space
Eliza Madrigal: This time, we started off with what seemed a simple sharing around 'wants'... which has grown into something layered and deep
Aphrodite Macbain: interesting. are there common wants or were they each different?
Eliza Madrigal: there is an interesting dynamic which occurs in a one-at-a-time spiral format, which is that there seems a building of energy and sensitivity
Eliza Madrigal: so we've been playing with that...
Eliza Madrigal: hm...
Eliza Madrigal: good question
Eliza Madrigal: I'd have to answer both at the same time!
Aphrodite Macbain: it's like being in a choir or orchestra, each providing a series of notes
Aphrodite Macbain: and turning it into a symphony!
Eliza Madrigal: yes!
Eliza Madrigal: And, it constantly changes... it is responsive and supple...
Eliza Madrigal: sensitive
Aphrodite Macbain: I 'm afraid I should go and keep my mother company. I'm afraid of leaving her alone too long
Eliza Madrigal: That's a good idea
Eliza Madrigal: Nice to see you for a bit, and your family is in our thoughts
Aphrodite Macbain: Bye
Aphrodite Macbain: Nice to talk. Thanks! Bye! Lila, Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now Aphrodite

Lila Darkmatter: None but thee and me Eliza

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal waves! Hello Tallin
(end bell)
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks for reminding me that you're an alt!
Eliza Madrigal: I hesitate even during the bell, not to greet a newcomer :)
Eliza Madrigal: Greetings to you, Tallin, how is everything today?
Tallin Dezno: sure - sry that i like to use this one at the moment ... i want to have a bit more peace from all my wonderful contacts ...
Eliza Madrigal: I would be happy to sit quietly with you for a little while :)
Tallin Dezno: and yes - i can understand that very well - greetings new people during the pauses ... :-)
Tallin Dezno: and i´m fine, ty and hope so you are too (?) :-)
Eliza Madrigal: especially since they may be frightened by the huge crocodile in the pool
Tallin Dezno: ah. yes :-)
Eliza Madrigal: very well thanks :)
Tallin Dezno: how nice ! :-)
Tallin Dezno: whaow - impressive lila !
Lila Darkmatter grins menacingly
Eliza Madrigal: She is playing her part well
Tallin Dezno: yess ...

Tallin Dezno: i see in your profile the sceptical buddhist sangha eliza - what kind of scepticism is that if i may ask so ? ... :-)

Eliza Madrigal: to be honest I haven't attended a meeting there yet, but added my name thinking that should schedules coordinate I might
Eliza Madrigal: I have explored the site a bit
Eliza Madrigal: What is nice, is although they seem to have a very strict kind of (they think) no religion mindset..
Eliza Madrigal: they have a wonderful Padmasambhava stupa!
Eliza Madrigal: or someone there does....
Tallin Dezno: so - how do you handle that ? are you sceptical, too towards buddism or do you believe ? or anything else ? ... :-9
Eliza Madrigal: an avatar may click and walk around it
Tallin Dezno: whaow - cool ! do you have the lm for me perhaps plz ?

Eliza Madrigal: I don't think buddhism is something one can believe in, really....
Eliza Madrigal: more direct than belief
Eliza Madrigal: and sure, let me find that.... at least the site....
Tallin Dezno: but karma and reincarnation - aren´t that elements people believe in or don´t ?
Eliza Madrigal: You may need to fly around to find the stupa
Eliza Madrigal: Karma, reincarnation... for me those are ideas still
Tallin Dezno: ty so much for the lm ! :-9
Eliza Madrigal: pointers of pointers of pointers
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: yw
Eliza Madrigal: so in a sense I 'believe' in them...
Tallin Dezno: hi zen ! :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Zen :)
Eliza Madrigal: but not in an absolute way....
Tallin Dezno: that´s what i see eliza (!) ... ;-)
Eliza Madrigal: :)

Zen Arado: Hello Eliza, Tallin
Lila Darkmatter: grrr, Zen
Zen Arado: not impressed :)

( Lila then snaps and snarls at Zen )

Zen Arado: otoh....

Tallin Dezno: i don´t need those aspects for the buddha way i think ... hm ...
Lila Darkmatter: there ya go
Zen Arado: a talking alligator
Tallin Dezno: or for the ways of love and ideals ...
Eliza Madrigal: :)

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: karma is quite a liberating idea though, in some sense, because it says that one 'can' take responsibility for their own mind... indeed must, that no one 'else' will do it for us
Tallin Dezno: hi observerm
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Observrm
Zen Arado: Hi observerm
Eliza Madrigal: Zen, our discussion began when Tallin asked about the skeptical buddhist group...
Zen Arado: oh?
Eliza Madrigal: I've not yet gotten to attend a meeting there but I like the Padmasambhava stupa
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: did you see the discussion FB?
Eliza Madrigal: no...
observerm Resident: hi Tallin, Zen

Tallin Dezno: yes. it can work in that way. i agree eliza. and i´d prefere it instead of the alternatives fate and chance. but - i had a time, where nothing seemed as if karma would work and later i thought : but in the end - even karma may dissolve - so ... i dropped it "a bit" ... ;-)
Zen Arado: Dana Nourie, Linda Blanchard - they are from that group
Eliza Madrigal: Yes! Tallin I relate to that very much
Eliza Madrigal: ah... I have some sympathy with the ideas of the group..
Tallin Dezno: :-))
Zen Arado: non dualists seem to think we have little free will
Eliza Madrigal: couldn't help but notice that they spend a lot of time saying that they 'believe' in various things on their notes, etc... science mainly, etc... they believe in reason I guess
Zen Arado: yes
Zen Arado: very rational bunch
Eliza Madrigal: very romanticizing of rationalism
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: very anti religion too
Eliza Madrigal: it can be funny the views we hold without knowing it... all the beliefs and layers of ideas
Eliza Madrigal: seems karma :)

Zen Arado: yeah - they were talking about suicide
Zen Arado: and I chipped in
Eliza Madrigal listens
Zen Arado: that anyone has a right to commit suicide
Zen Arado: I tried to make them see that what we do affects everyone else
Zen Arado: they are very individualistic I think
Eliza Madrigal: ah, I see
Tallin Dezno: what is FB ?
Zen Arado: Facebook
Tallin Dezno: ah. ty
Zen Arado: they have a forum on FB too
Zen Arado: but I can't be bothered with it
Tallin Dezno: and who are "they" ? excuse my silly questions, plz ... :-(

Eliza Madrigal: This morning I listened to the end of an interview with a man who has donated more organs thn anyone else living that is known of... he began doing this after aiding his wife in ending a long struggle with illness...
Zen Arado: Skeptical Buddhists group
Tallin Dezno: ah ! okay ! ty zen
Zen Arado: in SL
Tallin Dezno: yes
Eliza Madrigal: he was of course judged severely, as was she, for that decision... but what right have those 'outside' to make that determination...
Tallin Dezno: rights ...
Eliza Madrigal: and now has saved at least 3 people (and families) from losing someone early
Zen Arado: it's difficult though Eliza
Zen Arado: people in India sell organs to rich Westerners....
Eliza Madrigal: of course
Eliza Madrigal: yes, why I qualified my answer :)
Zen Arado: if you donate a kidney to a relative that's ok I think

Eliza Madrigal: I've thought of putting myself on the brain bank list but haven't done it :)
Zen Arado: ethical issues like this are complicated
Zen Arado: :)
Tallin Dezno: brain bank ? what is it and what is it for ?
Zen Arado: I think you really have to look at each case as it comes up
Eliza Madrigal: The brain bank studies both healthy and 'mentally ill' brains for possible patterns...
Tallin Dezno: oh i see ...
Zen Arado: oh...I thought you were joking Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: a woman who had a major stroke and found herself basically 'enlightened' by it, does quite a bit of promotion for the cause
Eliza Madrigal: I'd love to see more understanding and curiosity re mental illnesses actually
Eliza Madrigal: so-called
Zen Arado: yes
Tallin Dezno: yes
Tallin Dezno: so called ? i was mental ill in my teenager years
Zen Arado: I have a close froiend with Aspergers
Eliza Madrigal: multiple personality disorder in particular, because I think we are demonizing sensitives in many cases...

--BELL--

Eliza Madrigal: Sorry to hear that Tallin
Zen Arado: depression is very common too
Tallin Dezno: no ! that is great ! because i had a wonderful chance to recover from it totally by meditation ! and now i know more from all that stuff as i would know if i hadn´t suffered from that
Lila Darkmatter: http://mystrokeofinsight.com/  <--this is the site Eliza refered to
Eliza Madrigal: You have empathy now
Zen Arado: ah yes Jill Bolte Taylor
Eliza Madrigal: being able to really understand is a gift
Zen Arado: watched the famous video
Tallin Dezno: hehe. that may be one of the aspects. i have it, but don´t know exactly where it comes from. but yes : for sure i now understand quite exact what mental ill means and what not (!)
Eliza Madrigal: ! hard won insight
Tallin Dezno: yess - that is right ...
Tallin Dezno: in those times it was no fun

Tallin Dezno: but now - it´s like a big gift

Zen Arado: Alzheimers is becoming more prevalent
Eliza Madrigal: yes..
Zen Arado: people live longer is why
Eliza Madrigal: little fact re ahlzheimers... good cholesterol now shown to make a difference...
Eliza Madrigal: so few things seem to actually do so

Zen Arado: so much psychology creeping into Buddhism lately
Zen Arado: start to think I need a psychotherapist as well as my practice...
Eliza Madrigal: sems natural and a rather healthy integration as long as we make distinctions... like what Tallin says re 'knowing' the distinctions
Eliza Madrigal: :) Zen,maybe.. my therapist was/is a zen guy
Eliza Madrigal: I didn't know it at the time
Eliza Madrigal: heh
Zen Arado: what if you are integrated akready?
Eliza Madrigal: will let you know when I get there
Eliza Madrigal: heheh
Zen Arado: so many of my friends have a psychotherapist
Zen Arado: maybe I am missing out :)
Eliza Madrigal: PaB seems that (integration)... we bring our 'rl' here and our 'sl lives there...bit by bit poking holes in the walls
Eliza Madrigal: what they do is provide a safe, set aside place where you can hear 'you' perhaps

Zen Arado: maybe we analyse too much? It can all be a bit self centred ?
Eliza Madrigal: sure, but isn't worrying about being self centered being self centered?

Tallin Dezno: to me, meditation and an on ideals orientated behaviour are the best helpers to come out of all trouble ...

Eliza Madrigal: :)
Zen Arado: how do you know you need a psychotherapist?
Eliza Madrigal: I was having panic attacks
Eliza Madrigal: it was very clear
Tallin Dezno: uh
Zen Arado: yeah - we get tied in knots...
Tallin Dezno: but nice that you can write you "had" them eliza ! ... :-)
Zen Arado: I had depression one time
Eliza Madrigal: Indeed Tallin
Zen Arado: saw a therapist
Zen Arado: waste of time
Tallin Dezno: i never had depression, i only was sad sometimes ...
Eliza Madrigal: not all therapists are skilled
Zen Arado: she told me I was more 'together' than she was
Tallin Dezno: i think so too eliza - it´s around 50:50 to me : 50 % are fine, 50% not so talented ...
Eliza Madrigal: yes
Zen Arado: but it was a year after the event
Eliza Madrigal: I saw one early on who was no help at all :) and last year another, in the context of family therapy...
Eliza Madrigal: so 'who' matters
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Tallin Dezno: :-)
Eliza Madrigal: It is time to move on the retreat
Zen Arado: yes
Eliza Madrigal: Pleasure to have spent this time with you all
Eliza Madrigal: Thanks!
Tallin Dezno: okay - have a good meeting and time ! +wave* ...
Zen Arado: no rest for us :)
Eliza Madrigal waving
Eliza Madrigal: hehe Zen
Tallin Dezno: :-))
Zen Arado: bye Tallin
Tallin Dezno: so i´ll leave too - may all beings be happy plz ...
Lila Darkmatter: Bye Tallin!
Tallin Dezno: bye zen
Tallin Dezno: and observerm