2008.09.08 19:00 - Living in a Cave is Not Simple

That evening Threedee was the guardian. He would email me the chat log, and I (Pema) would put the log up on the wiki, and provide a title.

Adelene, Corvuscova & Threedee were initially present, later others joined.

Threedee Shepherd: Corvi, how has the 9-sec been lately?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Sometimes...you just have to believe that you are worth the effort.
Adelene Dawner chuckles. "How so?"
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles..."I have not been the best, most consistent practitioner..."
Corvuscorva Nightfire: You? Adelene?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: You are definitely worth effort.
Adelene Dawner: Well, yeah, I know that. I'm more wondering how/why you're questioning your own worth.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: ah
Adelene Dawner: Or whether you're maybe questioning the return on the investment of the mediations. ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hahahaha
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think they have been incredibly helpful...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am not the most consistent practitioner of anything.
Adelene Dawner grins, rather a lot. "The only thing I do consistently is be myself."
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles back. "Yeah, exactly"
Adelene Dawner: And that's only because it's impossible, no matter how you try, to be anyone else.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Corvuscorva Nightfire nodsnods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: "I was so glad of the practice as I went to a job interview this week....there were 26 people there to interview me....9 seconds helped a great deal.

(parts redacted)
Threedee Shepherd: Hello Sky
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Sky.
Adelene Dawner: hi :)
Threedee Shepherd: I have learned from experience that the most "challenging" part of any job is the other people, not the work itself ;)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It's the fun part, too.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I very much enjoy balancing that act.
Adelene Dawner: Very, very true, Three.
Adelene Dawner doesn't especially agree with Corvus tho.
Corvuscorva Nightfire laughs.
(parts redacted)

Sky Szimmer: hi everyone.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hello!
Threedee Shepherd: so, let me "play host" and ask all of us how the 9-sec relates to the way we interact with those around us?
Sky Szimmer: i don't know if rightly or wrongly, but I use all situations of my life as practice
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm. I notice that when there is a potential annoyance "out there" I immediately stop and take a deep breath.
Sky Szimmer: given that, 9 sec has helped
Sky Szimmer: that is wise of you Three
Sky Szimmer: I just keep reminding myself, as is, as is
Sky Szimmer: acceptance whether i like it or not
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I stopped before the interview to do the 9seconds...and found myself more present despite the anxiety of interviewing....and so, greatly appreciative.
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, just the pause and the quieting is effective in itself
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I find it helps, too, in working...in being authentic with people..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I sometimes get overwhelmed by the sheer number of interactions in a day...and doing the 9 seconds has helped me just...sort of BE with that discomfort and let it pass.
Sky Szimmer: lately i have just been in aprpeciating and gratitude mode
Threedee Shepherd: anything in particular happening?
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Steve
Threedee Shepherd: hi steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hello
Sky Szimmer: hi steve
Sky Szimmer: just try to take in the moment fully
Sky Szimmer: sorry i have to run. impatient child commands.
Sky Szimmer: bye everyone
Threedee Shepherd: ok, bye Sky
Adelene Dawner: cya, Sky
Corvuscorva Nightfire bows out as well...
Threedee Shepherd: by Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I too must go...bye all.
Adelene Dawner: cya Corvus.
Adelene Dawner: (wow, short meeting tonight)
stevenaia Michinaga: hope it wasn;t my arrival
Threedee Shepherd: Steve and Ade, Is it just the sessions I happen to attend, or have you also noticed the groups are smaller lately?
Adelene Dawner: They are, yes.
Adelene Dawner: And there seems to be a bit less depth.
Threedee Shepherd: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: smaller? last Wednesday only one person attended my session, I suspect a chenge of season
Threedee Shepherd: I suspect a normal decline that happens to all groups once established and familiar
stevenaia Michinaga: many schools begining, teachers, professers, students schedules change
Adelene Dawner: Do we even have any students here?
stevenaia Michinaga: there seems to be many in this group
Adelene Dawner: ah
stevenaia Michinaga: I thought Pia was a student
Adelene Dawner has not made a point of finding out.
stevenaia Michinaga: assuption from her profile
stevenaia Michinaga: Adams and Rowan and Friedrick work at universities
Adelene Dawner: Could be, then.
stevenaia Michinaga: hello doug
doug Sosa: quitly late.
doug Sosa: quietly..
Threedee Shepherd: I will write Pema an e-mail wondering if it is worth canvassing all the members by e-mail about whether the number and times of the sessions is still a good choice.
Threedee Shepherd: hello doug, not too late to start a new topic :)
stevenaia Michinaga: I think it;s nice to know that a session is only a few hours from any time, even if there is only a guardian there
doug Sosa: just back from an all day seminar at google.
stevenaia Michinaga: I see some seesons where nothing is said or o one shows up
doug Sosa: iagree, i lik the presencce oflots of timeslots even if i can't be at most.
Threedee Shepherd: doug, what attracted you to a Google seminar?
stevenaia Michinaga: but sometimes a conversation between two people can be very interesting
doug Sosa: it was ru by the knight foundation on the information needs of communities in the future..
stevenaia Michinaga: rather than a group
doug Sosa: yes, even one person here alone can be good.
Threedee Shepherd: doug, just to be provocative, I will note that while knowledge/(information?) is power, information seems inversely proportional to wisdom lots of the time.
doug Sosa: almost always.
doug Sosa: They talked about how the poorer people don't engage with issues, and how the richest dont engage with issues, "I don't do local." I said ..
doug Sosa: because the issues don't engage people at either end, they are safe, sanitized. If they wer real they would get the ordnary folks abd threaten the rich. The we would have a real conversation.
Threedee Shepherd: I have my doubts even about energizing the ordinary folks. Don't rock "my" boat seems too often the atrtitude.
Threedee Shepherd: but, aside from being cynical...
stevenaia Michinaga: not cynical at all, quite close to reality
doug Sosa: You have to ask tem what they care about. cops, bad schools, garbage... and work from there, then engagement follows.
Threedee Shepherd: I wonder if there is a "not-knowledge" equivalent of "not-doing"
doug Sosa: ,ove o to issues that they bring up.
Adelene Dawner: The majority of people are not carnivores, Three.
doug Sosa: wow my typing is bad!
stevenaia Michinaga: it's being in proximity to me, I effect typers
doug Sosa: not knowledge to me implies (on the good side), droping assumptions.
doug Sosa: ah steve, the powerful one :)
stevenaia Michinaga: ...grin
Threedee Shepherd: that sounds good, given assumptions are usually useless illusions :D
Adelene Dawner: Not useless, and if those illusions are being used by the rest of the world, they are functionally real if you're dealing with said world.
doug Sosa: yes, nobody speaks pure illusion.
Threedee Shepherd: true. Makes things VERY convoluted. I like simple being better.
Adelene Dawner: Me, too. But I haven't found a cave to live in yet that has interent access.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Threedee Shepherd: wifi
doug Sosa: living in a cave is not simple.
Adelene Dawner: It'd be simple in that way, at least.
Threedee Shepherd: I am imagining what it would be like (to those around me) to go through an entire week responding only to the plain meaning of what people say, without assuming sub-text (yes Ade, I know), by the end of the week they would probably avoid me assiduously.
Adelene Dawner: I'd give it more like a day, *maybe* two.
doug Sosa: well, responding to the plain meaning might lead to less responding and they would love you more!
Adelene Dawner laughs.
Threedee Shepherd: inverse unintended consequences :D
doug Sosa: intended sequences..:)
stevenaia Michinaga: when I atempt this, I m called nieve
Threedee Shepherd: true, but it can also lead to being called wise
doug Sosa: that would be worth exploring in real detail. When you "attempt it", what do you actualy do?
stevenaia Michinaga: be myself, accepting, open
stevenaia Michinaga: very trecherous path
stevenaia Michinaga: the alternative to to be guarded and equally wrong with my assumptions
doug Sosa: i think that you must do more, because "naive" is not a reasonable response to "be myself, accepting, open." The question is..
doug Sosa: how do you express Be myself, accepting, open"?
stevenaia Michinaga: it is not a self assigned label
doug Sosa: Yes, but you must DO something.
doug Sosa: Like "accepting" seems to describe doing something.
stevenaia Michinaga: accept as face value what a person offers
doug Sosa: but what do you say, what is the body language?
stevenaia Michinaga: words or intent, non-judgemental as I can be
stevenaia Michinaga: of me or them
Threedee Shepherd: calm, unruffled, simple statements (it drives then crazy:) )
doug Sosa: well, probabaly can't really do that here now, but it would be a wonderful exploration.
stevenaia Michinaga: luckilly I work with a highly intuative person who vets many people for me
stevenaia Michinaga: clients walk out, I loonder what they say... workmate heard the same thing and responds... asshole
doug Sosa: who is the one who says you are naive? The one you are "accepting" or another?
stevenaia Michinaga: ponder
stevenaia Michinaga: another
doug Sosa: so the one you are acccpeting is fine with it?
stevenaia Michinaga: some people can read people or make assumptions, I usaully don;t bother and jsut accept
doug Sosa: that is not accepting, it is non-engagement.
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I assume they are, there is engagement , but in a non-judgemental way
doug Sosa: boy I am being a bit flip this evening. not like me.
Threedee Shepherd: When someone is being an asshole, do you imagine they are just acting from habit, or that deeper down there is confusion for them?
doug Sosa: That is different from "don't bother."
stevenaia Michinaga: when they are an "asshole" I usually don;t recognize it for quite a while
stevenaia Michinaga: when others may
doug Sosa: Like a girl abehid the counter in a starbucks i go to.
doug Sosa: She never looks me or anyone i the eye. feels terrible, but she is non-judgemental.
stevenaia Michinaga: that's when I am called nieve
doug Sosa: but steve, none is an asshole, really.
doug Sosa: They might bemean, scared, worried, but not an asshole.
stevenaia Michinaga: again, I usually miss that "atribute"
Threedee Shepherd: I know the danger of "desiring", yet, I can imagine it must be frustrating when a daily life situation (clerk) does not match aspirations
stevenaia Michinaga: who's aspirations?
Threedee Shepherd: OK, that was too blunt and even mean. Let me try again.
stevenaia Michinaga: aspirations assumes expectations , I;m usually pretty patient
stevenaia Michinaga: even with the inept coffee girl
doug Sosa: if someone is patient wiht me i sometimes see it as contemptuous or at least condescending.
stevenaia Michinaga: scratches head
doug Sosa: The coffee girl does not frustate me. isee her fear closing her off.
Threedee Shepherd: I want to be in community and be useful in ways that use my abilities. That is not aspiration or desire, it is gut feeling. I am frustrated when I am blocked or block myself.
doug Sosa: when the world or ourself doesn't respond as we want, it is a sign that real larning can happen. Prescious moments.
Threedee Shepherd: agreed, doug
doug Sosa: hope I am not lecturing.
stevenaia Michinaga: it;s one approach to llearning
Threedee Shepherd: no, you are not
doug Sosa: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: are you a teacher?
doug Sosa: hm, don't know how to aswer that. I think we all are.
stevenaia Michinaga: I mean professionally
doug Sosa: I think we want to treat ourselves with the same care of the parent we wish we had had.
doug Sosa: I have been a "professor" but i never did it from the role.
stevenaia Michinaga: I understand what youa re saying, it;s jsut not my approach
doug Sosa: Maybe i should learn yours :)
stevenaia Michinaga: can;t say ot works for everyoen, but it keep my blood pressure low
doug Sosa: good sign. But then the dead also have that result.
Threedee Shepherd: doug, you are in a "mood" tonight :)
stevenaia Michinaga: ....smile
doug Sosa: yes, kind o fun, hopefully not too destructive.
stevenaia Michinaga: there is a cynic in all of us
Threedee Shepherd: np
doug Sosa: I don't think i am being cynical.
stevenaia Michinaga: hmmm, comparing low blood pressure with the dead... ok maybe I misunderstood
stevenaia Michinaga: but it is amusing
Threedee Shepherd: " doug Sosa: I think we want to treat ourselves with the same care of the parent we wish we had had." why is that as hard as it is?
doug Sosa: Som people have low blood pressure and are calm, some have lower blood pressure and are apathetic, and some have even lower or no blood pressure and theya re dead.
doug Sosa: On parents, hard because .. I don't know? Too hard to drop the self hate and replace it with that love?
Threedee Shepherd: Well, I doubt it is humanly possible to have the parent we wish we had, parents are imperfect, too.
doug Sosa: It does take stopping and aying, ok, what is the kind of love i wish my mother/father would have given me if they wer really good at it? And then do it. So if i break a wine glass, in stead of "oh shit!@#", better "did you hurt yourself? Here let me help you pick it up.
Threedee Shepherd: doug, is it self-hate or disappointment?
doug Sosa: right, it could be either, and others in that tone realm.
doug Sosa: no, we don't have that parent, we imagine we had it and then do it to ourself.
stevenaia Michinaga: wow, the thought never crossed my mind
Threedee Shepherd: I meant in response to doug saying drop the self-hate, that we have self-disappointment not having to do with parents, but with oour own lives and behaviors
doug Sosa: Its like when someone says "too late to have the love I want, but not to late to give it."
stevenaia Michinaga: well, I never thought of lacking the love I wanted.....
Adelene Dawner: It's getting late - this is an interestin gread, and I'll be sure to catch it on the wiki, but I think I'll head to bed.
stevenaia Michinaga: night Adelene
Threedee Shepherd: night Ade
stevenaia Michinaga: pleasent dreams
Adelene Dawner: 'night all
doug Sosa: Smart choice Adelene. I too must go, really enjoyed unwinding here with you all.. Bless.
Threedee Shepherd: night doug
doug Sosa: byw.
stevenaia Michinaga: night doug
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks
stevenaia Michinaga: I won't keep you up much longer, but I love the directions this place takes you
Threedee Shepherd: me too
Threedee Shepherd: I'm hours from bed, yet (night person)
stevenaia Michinaga: from no deep content too... this
Threedee Shepherd: yes, patience is important
stevenaia Michinaga: you keeping the log tonight?
Threedee Shepherd: mmhmm
Threedee Shepherd: steve, it sounds from your description of "naive" response that you are calmed by being that way
stevenaia Michinaga: I try not to waste my time with assumptions of others intensions until they make them clear
Threedee Shepherd: I am getting to that point, it saves lots of wasted effort
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, there';s enough of that in the world
stevenaia Michinaga: iI am not at odds with how I view things, it usually leads to much laugher
Threedee Shepherd: I think I mis-read that, what do you mean by at-odds with?
stevenaia Michinaga: I mean I am comfortable with how I view others, at face value, and doing anything else would be that waste of time, yes people do that quite often, judge, assume, prejudice themselves
Threedee Shepherd: agreed
stevenaia Michinaga: it seems pointless andin many cases harmful
Threedee Shepherd: Yet, trying to "make sense" and "make/discern order" is what brains do. So things are always under scrutiny.
stevenaia Michinaga: I;m sure, but there is the letting go... that takes the buden off those thoughts
stevenaia Michinaga: just as you know it;s pointless(or wasteful) to spend your time judging, you reduce the tiem you spend scrutinizing things that will eventually make themselves evident
Threedee Shepherd: Yes, it does take the burden off those conscious thoughts. I suspect that below consciousness they still go on, and if so, perhaps letting go at that level is what prolonged and repeated meditation achieves?
stevenaia Michinaga: I couldn't know as I do so little meditation compared to some
stevenaia Michinaga: but I know some who are no better for it (meditation) but probably no worse, but I suspect that speaks to enlightenment, which is a matter of time
stevenaia Michinaga: that shoudl be the topic for another time, I will be the guardian tomarrow for Sylectra's shift if you;re around perhaps we could see what enlightenment meands to us and others
Threedee Shepherd: 87 PM
Threedee Shepherd: 7 PM?
stevenaia Michinaga: she si at the SL conf in tampa and won;t make to to her shift so we are trading
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: that time, lol
Threedee Shepherd: I expect to be here then, unless "something" comes up.
Threedee Shepherd: let's try to continue then and stop for now, ok?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, problem with comming late, meeting go longer
Threedee Shepherd: np
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: see you then
Threedee Shepherd: g'night
stevenaia Michinaga: night