2008.09.12 07:00 - Lag, latte and levels of accepting

The guardian for this meeting was Quen Oh. The comments are quen's.

(SL is a bit laggy and takes more time than usual to show the lines I typed.. hence chronological events are not in sync with written text now and then)

Waiting for the meeting to start with Pema, he went out to quickly get a latte.
First to arrive is Fael, wearing a bikini.

Fael Illyar: Hi Pema, Quen :)
quen Oh: hello Fael
Pema Pera: back!
quen Oh: Pema is heading for some caffeine and will be back any minute
quen Oh: ah hehe, nice timing Pema
Fael Illyar: wb Pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi Fael
Fael Illyar just got back from work.
quen Oh: ah you are in summer mood today Fael?
Fael Illyar: Looks like I am ... even though it's rather cold out there in RL
Fael Illyar isn't quite understanding her sudden impulse to come here in bikini.
Fael Illyar: twice already today
quen Oh: but snow and rain are difficult to find in sl
quen Oh: thats the nice thing of SL you decide what weather you want to be in
Fael Illyar: They are, yes :)
Fael Illyar: I got somewhere today :)
quen Oh: curious I have chat lag, it placed my input in different order
Pema Pera has lots of lag . . . .
Fael Illyar: I realized, while walking home that I had forgotten to accept myself completely
Fael Illyar: myself and my thoughts
Fael Illyar: looks like that's rather easy thing to forget :)
Pema Pera: I guess there are very many levels of "accepting" . . . .
quen Oh: lag and latte, that would be a good combination..
Fael Illyar: hmmh... I suppose it could be I just found a new level of accepting I hadn't been doing.
quen Oh: latte without lag better though..
Pema Pera trying to arrange a latte and a piece of banana pie and a laptop all within reach . . . .
quen Oh: and for me latte without milk and without lag..
Fael Illyar: Oh, that could present a challenge :)
Pema Pera sipping latte during lag
Pema Pera: yes, Fael, I am always amazed at how many levels there are in seeing anything
Pema Pera: we think we see, and then we see more clearly
Pema Pera: and more clearly
Pema Pera: and on and on and on . . . .
quen Oh: so you forgot to accept? or you forgot you accepted..
Fael Illyar: is there a difference?
quen Oh: don't know, was just wondering
quen Oh: if you don't oppose, do you accept?

Doug Sosa joins us...

doug Sosa: morning.. or whatever..
quen Oh: hello doug!
Pema Pera: Hi doug!
Fael Illyar: Hi doug :)
quen Oh: morning to you
quen Oh: always difficult to accept its morning...
Fael Illyar: so ... maybe it could be that I discovered a new level of accepting I wasn't doing and ended up not accepting the earlier levels either as a result for a while.
doug Sosa: :)
quen Oh: could you describe the difference between the levels of accepting Fael?
Fael Illyar: right now it sort of feels like I've never accepted myself more.
Fael Illyar: can't see it clearly yet
Fael Illyar: Maybe Pema could?

Suddenly Pema Pera is Offline...

Fael Illyar: ... ok, maybe not
quen Oh: oops his laptop is not accepting maybe
quen Oh: or something went wrong with the banana pie and the latte...
Fael Illyar: maybe :)
Fael Illyar: I still find it funny how you gain by accepting what you were seeking by rejecting.
Fael Illyar: (seeking, but not getting)
quen Oh: could you give an example perhaps Fael?

And Pema Pera is back!

Fael Illyar: I mean, many people have this that they hate something without a real reason and can't accept that they hate it.
Fael Illyar: wb Pema :)
quen Oh: wb Pema
quen Oh: are your banana pie and latte still ok?
Pema Pera: sorry about that -- it took me quite a while to realize that I was frozen out
quen Oh: and more important perhaps your laptop?
Pema Pera: hehe, all fine
Pema Pera: but when my internet connection drops
Pema Pera: it seems to be one-sided: I can still see incoming text, but can't send out -- quite strange
Fael Illyar: That hate never vanishes because it's always rejected and left not dealt with so it keeps trying to get out.
Fael Illyar: and even gaining strength
quen Oh: ah so
Fael Illyar: so, that sort of people often end up getting very up in arms about it sometimes.
Fael Illyar: because the natural safety valve is forcing them to let some of it out
quen Oh: well forgetting hate seems to be effective..
Fael Illyar: yes, but you need to accept it's there first before you can forget it
quen Oh: have some difficulties to understand, am not so much an accepting or rejecting person maybe... or not so much aware of it
Pema Pera: this reminds me of a line I saw recently of what you wrote, Fael; it was 2008/09/01 7 am:
Pema Pera: Fael Illyar: rather interesting, really that while escape has no chance to work, going head on does what you’d expect from escaping and more :)
quen Oh: hate can be fed though.. that I recognise
Fael Illyar: yes, this happens when you don't accept the emotion (like hate). That also leads you to believe you don't have it when the safety valve isn't letting it out.
doug Sosa: does hate always have a judgment at the core, a judgement we then viscerally energize?
Fael Illyar: Pema, that's the same idea really, expressed a bit differently :)
Pema Pera: yes
quen Oh: a judgement or an emotion?
doug Sosa: a judgement at the core wrappen in intense emeotion.
Fael Illyar: a judgement ... I'm somewhat inclined to say it's another term to call not accepting.
doug Sosa: but before not acepting some judgement, no?
doug Sosa: This person is fat, violent, greedy, uncommonly hurtful: something like that at the core.
quen Oh: which makes the judgement static... difficult to change because there is no more neutral reflection or neutral experience that might influence it
Fael Illyar: not accepting, as in, keeping the emotion inside you, suppressing it. Works as an emergency response if you must not let the feeling out.
Fael Illyar: however, if that ends up long term strategy for dealing with an emotion ...
doug Sosa: I think it might be easier to defuse if we see what the judgment is.
quen Oh agrees with doug
doug Sosa: then the PaB can explore the judgement. See how unimportant, or illusory it is, or perhaps, connected with yet other things to explore.
quen Oh: if you could separate the unpleasant emotions from the judgement and reflect more neutrally about it, that might help to accept or differ your view?
Fael Illyar: judgement and emotions are not the same thing.
Fael Illyar: judgements are what keep you from seeing clearly
Fael Illyar: filters, so to speak
quen Oh: aren't emotions doing that too?
Fael Illyar: no, emotions, if accepted, just are there.
quen Oh: though I don't claim judgements and emotions are the same of course
Fael Illyar: nothing prevents you from being sad and happy at the same time.
doug Sosa: a horse sees a shadow in the grass, imagines a snake, and jumps. the jump is the emotion, the perception of snake is a judgement. This has survival value.
Fael Illyar: even though those are seen as opposites
doug Sosa: But also for humans can get in the way if we do not stop to figure
quen Oh: not for me, if I am angry everything seems to be affected by that, even nice and bright, happy people seem irritating
doug Sosa: was it a shadow, or a snake, if a snake, what kind, and even if the worst, will it not want to leave us alone?
quen Oh: and if I am enthusiast or in joyful mood even the most negative muttering person seems cute and makes me smile
doug Sosa: Anger burns out my own neurons, and does no good. (most of the time :) )
Fael Illyar: doug, yes, that's my experience too.
Fael Illyar: quen, when you're angry and can do nothing about it. That's the safety valve kicking in
quen Oh: I can do things... playing the piano for instance
doug Sosa: like erik satie or...? :)
Fael Illyar: Of course, if you channel the anger into something, that helps it go away too
quen Oh: that makes me not think about things for a while, or calms thinking down and let thougts flow much more, after that most angriness is gone
Fael Illyar: it just needs to be expressed in some way
quen Oh: satie, bach, mozart, beethoven, chopin
doug Sosa: write an opera!
quen Oh: or when I am in good mood and played some, just nothing, some thoughtless improvising

Fael shows us a new shape of her avatar she has made..

Fael Illyar: I made a shape two days ago while I was not accepting myself.
Fael Illyar: let me change to that, tell me what emotions you see on the afce
quen Oh: I don't play angrily Fael... you just cannot do that to Bach...
doug Sosa: but really, face it, let it be, let it see you, ralize it is just the face of appearanceof an onion of complxity that can be dissolved in accurate perception..
Fael Illyar: ok, here. I'll leave it on for a while so it has a chance to rez for you :)
quen Oh: ah ok
Fael Illyar: the guardian might want to take a snapshot ;)
quen Oh: don't see anything yet..
Fael Illyar: Looks at my AV
Fael Illyar: face mostly :)

Doug leaves..

doug Sosa: must go.... :)
Pema Pera: bye Doug!
quen Oh: ah you mean a sl shape... yours...
Fael Illyar: yes
Fael Illyar: bye doug :)
quen Oh: gosh hehe I thought some rl shape, perhaps of clay or so
quen Oh: bye Doug!

And we look at Faels new rezzed face..

Fael Illyar: so, what kind of emotion do you think you see on this shape?
Pema Pera: pensive?
Pema Pera: gazing out?
quen Oh: melancholy?
Fael Illyar: Yes, I realized later that I had expressed my feelings on the shape I created
Fael Illyar: now, if you compare this with what I was wearing earlier.

Fael Illyar switches back

Pema Pera: SL is a great medium for expressing oneself, in many ways
quen Oh: well this is the first time I see really change in facial expression..
quen Oh: I like sometimes that the facial expression is always pleasant and lightly smiling
quen Oh: in sl I mean
quen Oh: yes, you seem to feel better now Fael..
Pema Pera: yes, this expression looks more at ease
Fael Illyar: and a third one I use sometimes as well :)
Pema Pera: well, I will make myself even more at ease, and try to get some sleep -- approaching midnight here
Pema Pera: good seeing you again!
Fael Illyar: Ok, good night Pema :)
Fael Illyar: You too :)
Pema Pera: till next time
Fael Illyar: See you soon :)
quen Oh: good seeing you too Pema, sleep well
Pema Pera: and thank you Quen, for your debut as guardian on call here!

Pema Pera has gone to sleep which steers conversation at sleeping and judgements

quen Oh: well he has gone, and can sleep after drinking latte, thats good
Fael Illyar: Yes, interesting that people drink coffee as a sleeping aid :)
quen Oh smiles
quen Oh: well you must be sleeping better perhaps since you are at another level of accepting?
Fael Illyar: I haven't had problems sleeping in a quite a while.
quen Oh: me almost never, its only curious I hate to waiste my time sleeping in the evening (as an evening person I am always relatively active) but in the morning sleeping seems the nicest thing in the world...
Fael Illyar: sounds like what I had a few months ago still.
quen Oh: ah, have had it all my life I think.. how did you solve it?
Fael Illyar: when you're sleeping and almost asleep, you can see more clearly.
quen Oh: ?
Fael Illyar: so, when you see more clearly, you can see that waking up means going to your usual routine of more non acceptance.
Fael Illyar: and thus are reluctant to do it
Fael Illyar: when you're awake at the evening, you can no longer see what sleep actually is.
quen Oh: but I also don't want to sleep//
Fael Illyar: and have all kinds of judgements in place about it
Fael Illyar: most of which you don't actually even know about
quen Oh: wouldn't that be unlikely that you build misconceptions all day which you erase every morning?
Fael Illyar: it's not erasing ... sleep is a natural process of letting go of things. Lets you have some rest from whatever judgements you have.
Fael Illyar: another sort of safety system in your body, so to speak
quen Oh: mm interesting theory
Fael Illyar: so the nonconscious parts of your brain can process what happened during the day without your consicous, judgemental, mind getting in the way
quen Oh: and it particularly influences judgements about sleep? or others too? have never noticed..
Fael Illyar: it influences all judgements. when you're asleep, you have nearly no judgements. Only the ones that are the strongest are present. that's why people wake up to nightmares
quen Oh: so you have no problems to rise nor get to sleep?
Fael Illyar: rising, I had some problems the last few days... also went to bed quite late.
quen Oh: ai
Fael Illyar: but before that I had about a month of no problems
quen Oh: nice
Fael Illyar: waking up without an alarm :)
quen Oh: that I have often again
quen Oh: only when working really hard and being constantly tired I can without alarm sleep till the middle of the day
quen Oh: but normally I wake before alarm, allthough reluctant and if I could choose would be able to fall asleep again immediately
quen Oh: perhaps you are more accepting..
Fael Illyar: Yes, I've had that too :)
Fael Illyar: when you're unwilling to do something, it often is because you know (consciously or not) that it'd somehow end up having you feel worse.
Fael Illyar: but most of that feeling worse is actually things you do yourself
quen Oh: gosh lol must have a terrible life then... not wanting to sleep nor wake
Fael Illyar: terrible life is another judgement :)
quen Oh: well am not consciously feeling bad ;-) in fact the opposite I'd say
Fael Illyar: life is too complex to describe with just a single word :)
quen Oh: was not serious ;-) have not a terrible life at all
quen Oh: you are right
Fael Illyar: but how good you feel is sort of like the speed of light.
Fael Illyar: you can get closer but never quite reach the maximum
quen Oh: well.. the word 'life' seems to aply
quen Oh: but not descibe at all
Fael Illyar: the world life means as many different things as there are people using the word :)
quen Oh: and yet we can talk about it, isn't that wonderful?
Fael Illyar: Yes :)
quen Oh: :-)
Fael Illyar: enough similarities :)
quen Oh: you say: but how good you feel is sort of like the speed of light. you can get closer but never quite reach the maximum
quen Oh: there is some ultimate feeling good which cannot be better?
Fael Illyar: yes, imaginary one :)
quen Oh: ah :-) maybe the problem is that we have this imaginary ultimate..
Fael Illyar: That we take for a goal, yes, exactly.
quen Oh: which seems to be infinitely better than the current
quen Oh: so in comparison the now is always loosing...
Fael Illyar: yes, it's something that you will never reach and even if you set that as a goal, you'll know that ,deep down.
quen Oh: if we would't have a goal, but just a now..
Fael Illyar: Yes, exactly :)
Fael Illyar: It's fine as it is now :)
quen Oh: and not some idealised past too of course..
Fael Illyar: what it is that sort of is "progress" here is learning to accept the now better.
quen Oh: difficult to stop the time-aspect and the comparing in your thinking
Fael Illyar: whatever it is :)
quen Oh: progress seems dangerous too ;-)
Fael Illyar: Yes, the word is intertwined with having a goal

After this we exchanged some practicallities about posting this chatlog on the net, since it was my first time as guardian and we said goodbye.