2008.09.16 07:00 - Grok

Riddle was Guardian on Call this morning.  The comments are mine ...  (trails off, hmmmming to self)

This session was so good.  Most of that goodness comes from the spontainousness and stream of chatter.
I am of one mind to not add my comments.  Any comments I add at this later time would be the acts of going back in time to say what I only I thought should/could have been said there and then.
Should I be allowed to correct the mis-spellings that enrichened the imagery.
Should I take on g-d like powers and bend time to alter what took place.
Should I deminish the power of what was said, to interject and intrepret, for you the reader.

However, one long breakless text is boring and nearly unreadable.

The best thing would be for others (especially those not present at this session) to write their comments as the items that they would have said if you were there then.

So, that is what I will do.
Please, oh gently reader, open this session in your wiki editor and comment along as you become a member of this session.
My (Riddle) comment are in Blue

All of us arrived about the same time.

Riddle Sideways: good morning all
Faenik: indeed?
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adelene Dawner: indeed! ^.^
Maxine Walden: hi, all
Faenik grins

Riddle Sideways: does somebody have a microphone on?
Gaya Ethaniel: I have... is it interfering with something Riddle?
Riddle Sideways: no, just the heavy breathing is ummm :)
Gaya Ethaniel: hm... my voice chat is disabled though
Gaya Ethaniel: How do I fix this?
Adelene Dawner: I don't think it was you, Gaya.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah right phew
Maxine Walden: is it me?
Adelene Dawner: Looks like it.
Riddle Sideways: Adele it was quite a sight following all your feathers into the building
Maxine Walden: now I ask the same question, how do I turn it off?
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ @ Riddle
Faenik: ????^^
Adelene Dawner: Maxine: In the bottom left corner of yoyr screen, there's a button marked 'talk' with a little lock on it - click the lock.
Maxine Walden: did it, did that do it, think so, thanks Adelene
Adelene Dawner: Yup, you're not transmitting any more. ^.^

Maxine Walden: your feathers are spectacular!
Adelene Dawner grins. "Thanks"
Riddle Sideways: Adelene I was reading through old logs and
Riddle Sideways: saw you were reading "Stranger in a strange land"

Riddle Sideways: I read it in the 60s and again about 3 years ago
Riddle Sideways: I thought that it got very dated
Adelene Dawner: A fair amount of the social life stuff did, but the ideas are still relevant and the presentation is still very interesting, I think.
Maxine Walden: have not read the book, can you give a thumbnail, major themes of the book?
Riddle Sideways: the parts about women being equal seemed very forced
Adelene Dawner: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange...a_strange_land
Maxine Walden: ah, thanks, both

Riddle Sideways: "Grok" is the most appropriate for PaB
Gaya Ethaniel: ty
Maxine Walden: Grok?
Riddle Sideways: but, the idea/priciple of what you see directly is all you should report on is important too

Adelene Dawner: Mmm... partial agreement, Riddle. I'd heard that, so last time I read the book I looked closely at that part, and a lot, if not all, of the questionable stuff as far as equality of the sexes (and the homosexuality themes, for that matter) were presented from the characters' point of view... it could just as easily be interpreted as the author showing that the characters are human and falable.
Riddle Sideways: perhaps
Maxine Walden: varying perspectives...
Adelene Dawner: Heinlein didn't conflate 'different' and 'unequal' as a lot of people tend to, which can lead to confusion if you're still conflating them.
Riddle Sideways: being a sci-fi, the book pushes a future outlook that is hard to say is the authors or future society point of view
Faenik: indeed?
Adelene Dawner: I think it'd be the author's by definition - none of us can predict the future - but why does that matter?
Riddle Sideways: it really doesn't matter much. It was parts of the book that did not stick with me through the years
Riddle Sideways: the parts that did stick were ways of looking at things, events, people
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Maxine Walden: could it be that we have here a beautiful example of different perspectives on the very same thing, the book? There may be intersection of thought or not, depending on the point of view of each reader, here Riddle and Adelene
Riddle Sideways: and that english didn't have a good word for "I understand thoroughly"
Riddle Sideways: we needed that word and a hole generation read that book and know what grok is
Adelene Dawner: One thing that seems relevant, perhaps, is that Stranger isn't really-really a scifi book. The scifi part, the part about mars and aliens and space travel, is just a means to the end of introducing the character who embodies the concepts that the book is about, and to provide a few later plot hooks.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_

Adelene Dawner: 'lo Corvus ^.^
Riddle Sideways: good morning corvus
Maxine Walden: hi, Corvus
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mornin' all
Riddle Sideways: yes, the plot is very thin and enough to allow a lawyer character to go on and on about laws, society and all
Riddle Sideways: a wonderful vehicle
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.
Riddle Sideways: Corvus, we were discussing "Stranger in a Strange land"
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods...recognized that immediately.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^

Riddle Sideways: when we have not only thought about something, but put ourselves in it's place/shoes adn thought through all the possiblities then we grok
Riddle Sideways: somebody else might say that better
Adelene Dawner: I consider grok a form of 'to be'... to understand something so fully that one becomes it.
Maxine Walden: so grok means 'understand thoroughly'?
Adelene Dawner: And the funny part is how easy that is, if one is open to it.
Gaya Ethaniel thinks she should get a copy to read from her library soon
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Gaya ^.^
Riddle Sideways: yes, to be sooo open
Gaya Ethaniel smiles
Maxine Walden: so open as to become someone else...is that the same as understanding someone else? For me there is a difference
Riddle Sideways: there is a part about the grass/lawn
Adelene Dawner: Compare to "Love thy neighbor as thyself"
Maxine Walden: but maybe the book does refer to becoming someone else, losing one's boundary
Riddle Sideways: micheal does not want to step on a living thing
Faenik: ????^^
Riddle Sideways: but he groks that this is it's purpose
Riddle Sideways: no withstanding his point of view and ideas, this plants purpose and desire is to be walked and sat on
Adelene Dawner: and so he does. ^.^
Riddle Sideways: I read this when I was 17 or 18
Riddle Sideways: it was just what I needed
Riddle Sideways: :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Grok is a good concept, and I'm glad to have it... but I think 'thou art God' is just as important/central, if not more so.

Adelene Dawner: 'lo Wol :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi Wol.
Wol Euler: hello everyone!
Riddle Sideways: good moring Wol
Maxine Walden: oh, Adelene. Hi wol
Maxine Walden: oh, Adelene?
Wol Euler: good afternoon to you Ridddle ;-)
Adelene Dawner grins. "Yes, Maxine?"
Riddle Sideways: 'thou art god' seems (almost) to get it right/complete
Adelene Dawner: how 'almost, Riddle?
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Riddle Sideways: but gives some feeling of over the top or not thorough or permission giving
Riddle Sideways: ok, words are failing here
Riddle Sideways: to me 'Grok' covers every atom
Riddle Sideways: and thou art god covers ....
Gaya Ethaniel: phone brb
Riddle Sideways: ok, but it don't think it covers the phone

Wol Euler: lol
Maxine Walden: lol
Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Why not?"
Corvuscorva Nightfire giggles.
Faenik: why not?

Adelene doing her best Faenik, who notices and responds.

Ok, kids do not try to type a coherent sentence while jotting down notes for further thought/exploration.

Riddle Sideways: ok, have writting this down to contempt more later
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Riddle Sideways: in the book micheal can just stop and think things through
Wol Euler: I don't think that word means what you think it means :-)
Riddle Sideways: sometimes for hours he is virtually dead
Adelene Dawner: Which, Wol?
Wol Euler: "contempt"
Adelene Dawner: ah, yes. ^.^ *chuckle*
Wol Euler is unable to resist a linguistic joke
Riddle Sideways: ooops, contemplate
Wol Euler: an intriguing slip...
Adelene Dawner: Anyway yes, Riddle, and if you want/need to do that, why not?
Adelene Dawner: Actually yes it's an interesting slip - 'grok' has as much to do with hate as it does with love, if I remember the book's words about it correctly.
Riddle Sideways: the typos and mispleelings make it interesting and educational
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it does? I'd forgotten that Adelene.
Riddle Sideways: I remember love and hate having equal places. and yet not as important as
Adelene Dawner: To hate or love someone or something you have to understand it enough to see something of yourself in it.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: OH!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I HAD forgotten that part of the concept.
Wol Euler: hmmmmm
Riddle Sideways: to grok something/somebody would be more then see yourself in it, it would be you and you would BE it
Adelene Dawner: So to grok is to fully hate and fully love and fully BE something.
Riddle Sideways: is what I took from it
Riddle Sideways: It's Being is your Being
Wol Euler needs to read it again.

Maxine Walden: does one lose oneself when one groks someone/something else?
Adelene Dawner: The question barely makes sense, Max.
Riddle Sideways: yes and no... not sure how to answer
Adelene Dawner: Do you lose your arm because you are your leg?
Faenik loves wells!
Riddle Sideways: Do you lose you when you become Being?
Maxine Walden: ah, not having read the book I am trying unsuccessfully to apply some thoughts to it
Wol Euler: I remember it as being more like opening a door, than merging with something else.
Riddle Sideways: maxine, I think we have moved beyond the book
Maxine Walden: right
Adelene Dawner: Yup. You're keeping up with the concepts okay as far as I can see. ^.^
Riddle Sideways: is there a lose of 'me' when we become Being?
Riddle Sideways: (and is that a bad thing?)
Maxine Walden: not good or bad, just trying to hone in and the notion of being/Being brings it closer for me. I think I lose a bit of me when Being in that I open up more
Maxine Walden: open up more and thus am not the same 'me' as a moment before
Adelene Dawner: It's not so much a loss as a putting-into-perspective... we take our selves too seriously sometimes.
Wol Euler nods

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Huh. I kinda thought it might be a..setting aside of the things that are not me.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: the costumes.
Maxine Walden: but then the 'me' is changing all the time, agree, adelene, we may cling too much to 'me'
Adelene Dawner: Why/how are the costumes not you? Who made them? Who chose to take them on?
Riddle Sideways: versus what we have being put aside
Adelene Dawner: Agree very much, Max.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: not that those aren't important, Adelene..but that they are...just clues.
Riddle Sideways: the many 'me' all day long
Maxine Walden: This is that difficult time in the conversation when I have to leave, to get ready for the RL day. Always feels like a loss to have to go
Riddle Sideways: an hour ago I was not the me I am now
Adelene Dawner: ^.^ see you, Max.
Riddle Sideways: my pillow was me
Maxine Walden: see you all soon, I hope
Maxine Walden: bye
Wol Euler: bye maxine, take care.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_

Riddle Sideways: have the good day maxine
Faenik: indeed?
Gaya Ethaniel: (still on the phone apologies)
Wol Euler: np
Adelene Dawner: Corvus... that's a tricky area. We can talk more if you want.
Wol Euler nods. yes please, if you have time.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Riddle Sideways: the custumes (or uniforms) we present to the world?

Adelene Dawner: Yes. I hear often that those are 'not-me' and I'm kind of confused - if they're not, what are they? It's not like they have a life of their own.
Faenik: ????^^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm. I guess I think of them like hermit crab shells.
Wol Euler: the speaker means perhaps that they are not what s/he would have freely chosen., that they were somehow determined from outside.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm
Adelene Dawner: ... nobody has a gun to your head... and there is no such thing as an uninfluenced choice.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: no!
Wol Euler smiles at corvi.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I know that...
Faenik: why not?
Wol Euler: true
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmmm

Corvuscorva Nightfire: I am having a hard time thinking of words to explain my concept of self.
Riddle Sideways: we all have that problem
Adelene Dawner: We all find ourselves in situations where our choices are limited. Even so, our reactions to those situations are an integral part of our selves.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think that's it..the reactions are integral...
Adelene Dawner: And... that statement is even more true for the other meaning of 'find ourselves'.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: the costume is a sign of those reactions.
Riddle Sideways: is there a base self, that has to be clothed in how we are going to respond to ...
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but not the reaction itself.
Wol Euler: inthat sense "it's not me" would be the attempt to deny responsibility for who /what you are in that situation. "just doing my job"
Wol Euler: or "just following orders"
Adelene Dawner: If the reaction is to take on a costume, then yes, the costume is part of the self - it's something that you have chosen to become.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I guess I am making a distinction between signs and what the signs point to.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: but in the end...it is a small distinction.
Riddle Sideways: or is it
Corvuscorva Nightfire: well..making the distinction, for me, reminds me that there is choice and change.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that my "costume today doesn't have to be the one I wear tomorrow.
Adelene Dawner: We seem to be headed toward a core concept here - may I jump ahead to it?
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: please
Wol Euler: heheheheh
Riddle Sideways: so there is the real you back there dressing your avatar to do your bidding

Adelene Dawner: This seems to be based on the idea that there's some 'true self' that each of us has, that's somehow separate from our thoughts and actions. I don't think that's accurate.
Faenik: why not?
Adelene Dawner grins at Riddle.
Wol Euler: I think it is about (ir)responsibility, about not taking responsibility for that part of your life.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I don't think that's what I mean by self..
Corvuscorva Nightfire: that it is seperate from my thoughts and actions.
Adelene Dawner: Then how can you draw a line between somethings and other things, and say 'this is a costume, it's not me' and 'this is me'?
Riddle Sideways: ooo tough question
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I think I am saying that...those choices aren't immutable, that the chooser can take off those clothes and choose anew.
Adelene Dawner: No choice is immutable, then. It's all costumes and there is no self behind them. ^.^
Riddle Sideways: then there are lines
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmmm
Riddle Sideways: lines drawn between the self with its thoughts and actions
Riddle Sideways: and the avatar we send to do them

Adelene Dawner: I'm reminded of something Jubal said in Stranger: "I never do anything I don't want to do. Nor does anyone, but in my case I am always aware of it."
Wol Euler nods
Riddle Sideways needs to be more aware of my awareness
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Faenik is a hairy black ball with eyes and ears.

Adelene Dawner: Back to costumes... a functional difference is that some of the costumes, we decide never to take off, and we call those 'true self', and other costumes we wear lightly, and call them 'not me'... but what we call them doesn't change what they are.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods. "I would easily agree with that"
Riddle Sideways: layers
Adelene Dawner: Feel free to come sit with us, by the way, Joanna. ^.^
Faenik: ????^^
Wol Euler: or not...
Wol Euler: so the true me is the last and deepest costume. That suggests that there might be an even truer me beneath it, that I don't know yet.
Riddle Sideways: I think so
Wol Euler: and getting to that is what losing attachments and gaining self-insight reveals.
Riddle Sideways: somewhere back there is Being
Adelene Dawner: Well, it'll be interesting to hear about what you find, in any case, Wol. ^.^
Wol Euler: hehehehe
Riddle Sideways: we hope to read that book
Wol Euler: I'll have my agent send you a copy.
Corvuscorva Nightfire grins.
Riddle Sideways: your agents will DO lunch
Riddle Sideways: *our

Corvuscorva Nightfire: Adelene...is there a difference between what Self DOES and what Self IS?
Faenik: ????^^
Corvuscorva Nightfire: sorry...I'm still grappling a bit.
Adelene Dawner: For a definition of 'doing' that includes thoughts and feelings and sensing and bewing aware - which isn't that much of a stretch in some respects - no, no difference.
Adelene Dawner: *being aware
Corvuscorva Nightfire: mm
Riddle Sideways writes that definition done to play with later
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: It is provocative.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: in a good sense.
Adelene Dawner chuckles. "Good. 'M doin' my job, then." ^.^
Wol Euler smiles
Riddle Sideways nods yes

Riddle Sideways: doing seems to be sencing, but trouble with beening aware as a doing
Riddle Sideways: *being
Riddle Sideways: (or Being) aware
Adelene Dawner: mmm... for a mundane sense of 'being aware' - more closely related to 'thinking' than to something like meditation.
Adelene Dawner: 'being aware' as opposed to 'being unaware' - a dualistic definition.
Riddle Sideways: Oh dear.... Being aware, being aware, being unaware, not being aware, not aware of being
Corvuscorva Nightfire snorts.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I like that poem.
Corvuscorva Nightfire writes that down to chant like a child's rhyme.

Adelene Dawner: Nobody ever said it was simple, Riddle. Well, except Avastu...
Wol Euler laughs!
Riddle Sideways: lol
Faenik: ????^^
Riddle Sideways: I miss Avastu
Adelene Dawner grins.
Wol Euler: I found his mostly-silent bulk somehow reassuring.
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Riddle Sideways: it is what it is
Adelene Dawner has a very self-satisfied look on her face at the moment.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hmm?
Riddle Sideways needed to go half hour ago, but this was more fulfilling
Adelene Dawner: Cya, Riddle.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Wol Euler: ah, the penny drops! that's why his house is gone. We used to be neighbours.
Wol Euler: bye riddle, take care
Adelene Dawner: It was good chatting today.
Corvuscorva Nightfire smiles. Thank you, Riddle..it was very good.
Riddle Sideways: bye all
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Adelene Dawner: Yes, Avastu left a few weeks ago. Perhaps ons of these days I'll try to talk him into coming back.
Adelene Dawner: *one
Corvuscorva Nightfire stands and stretches...I have to go think now.
Corvuscorva Nightfire: My wee brain is hurting.
Wol Euler: lol