2008.09.18 13:00 - Suspending Belief

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    The guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

    Wol was waiting for me as I crash-landed with such grace on the pavilion table. We were joined shortly after by Kelwen.

    Wol Euler: hello storm
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Wol
    Storm Nordwind: Hi Kelwen
    Kelwen Landar: Hello Storm
    Kelwen Landar: Hello Wol
    Wol Euler looks up from Adelene's book.. Hi Kelwen
    Wol Euler looks around the table. It's fascinating how people choose where to sit in groups.
    Wol Euler: like placing the first few stones on a Go board :-)
    Storm Nordwind: Another Go player Wol?
    Wol Euler: oh no, lower than amateur. Interested observer.
    Wol Euler: I found a teach-yourself-go website and am fighting through it, but I just don't "see" the game yet
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Storm Nordwind: I can recommend some downloadable tutors
    Wol Euler: for Mac? that would be nice, thanks.
    Storm Nordwind: Oh for a Mac... hmmm.... maybe not then
    Wol Euler: well, I have Virtual PC so I can run Windows XP software.
    Storm Nordwind: I would first of all do the tutorial on the BGA website and then download igowin which will teach you basic tactics on a small 9x9 board

    I was referring to http://www.britgo.org/ and http://www.smart-games.com/igowin.html

    Wol Euler makes a note. Thanks.
    Wol Euler: btw, I want to put up a test autologging unit here as soon as it's stable, to test it under real loading conditions.
    Wol Euler: It's not quite ready yet, I'm having memory overflow problems.
    Storm Nordwind: That's good. Although 'load' is unlikely at the 13:00 sessions! ;)
    Wol Euler: heheeh
    Wol Euler: the US evenings are too late for us Euros though.
    Wol Euler: so I won't see it failing :-(
    Storm Nordwind: Ah... hmm... true. But how would you know if it failed? Would it know itself and be able to email you?
    Wol Euler: yes, it IMs me very time it does something significant.
    Wol Euler: and Fael has a prototype server listening already, we can check its logs.
    Storm Nordwind: Good! We have progress then :)

    I suddenly realised that Wol and I were carrying on as though no one else was there!

    Storm Nordwind wonders if the patiently listening Kelwen knows what we're talking about :)
    Wol Euler: indeed we do. I want to have this running by the 23rd, to have a full week of live load testing before switching over -- which I still want to say is October 1.
    Kelwen Landar: i have absolutely no idea, sorry
    Wol Euler laughs. Sorry, I got carried away.
    Kelwen Landar: im often quiet tho, i dont often have anything to contribute
    Kelwen Landar: so im just listening and learning all the time
    Wol Euler: Fael and I are working on system to automate the recording and publishing of these meetings, which is presently done by hand.
    Kelwen Landar: oh i see

    I checked the Wiki to see if Kelwen had been here before. She had. But I didn't know how much she knew about why we were here. I probed gently to see if I needed to explain things.

    Storm Nordwind: I don't think we've met before Kelwen, but I know you've been before. Have you tried this Play as Being practice that gets discussed here?
    Kelwen Landar: no, the whole thing is totally new to me to be honest
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Storm Nordwind: ok
    Kelwen Landar: i stumbled across it by accident..
    Kelwen Landar: and was interested enough to want to come back
    Kelwen Landar: so i have been..
    Storm Nordwind: I see. Has anyone explained any of the details yet? I ask because I don't want to bore you with stuff you already know!
    Kelwen Landar: well ive read the site..
    Kelwen Landar: and understand about the 9 seconds..
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Storm Nordwind: Had a go yourself yet? It's certainly easy to get started.
    Kelwen Landar: i was looking for information on meditation, and somewhere nice to just relax, and i thought this could be a good way of gettin started
    Kelwen Landar: as i find it hard to sit and just 'be' for too long..
    Kelwen Landar: yes, i have been trying
    Storm Nordwind: Then 9 seconds sounds ideal! :)
    Kelwen Landar: yes :)
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Kelwen Landar: i found the place just down from here, that has notecards
    Storm Nordwind: Has anyone mentioned that we suggest noting down your experiences afterwards, no matter how briefly - even a single word ... ?
    Kelwen Landar: yes they have
    Kelwen Landar: i have been :)
    Storm Nordwind: Cool! Some people even ventured to publish these in their blogs. Many others keep them private. Whichever is not so important as having the chance to look over them from time to time
    Kelwen Landar: well i tend to see/think the same thing/s when im still... which is why ive tried so hard not to be up until recently
    Kelwen Landar: its more an exercise for me in being able to let go of what comes into my head, without it escalating
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Wol Euler nods
    Kelwen Landar: so that i can then learn to do that at other times
    Storm Nordwind: Yes I understand that
    Kelwen Landar: hopfully it will help
    Storm Nordwind: I'm sure it will. And there are several meditation techniques in established traditions that address similar things too
    Kelwen Landar: i havent looked into anything like that as yet
    Kelwen Landar: although i have tried to look more into buddhism, as ive been a few times that some of my beliefs are similar in that way
    Storm Nordwind: That's fine. And although we have one or two people here who practise those things, they [those things] are not specifically linked to Play as Being
    Kelwen Landar: altho im having trouble understanding alot of it to be honest
    Storm Nordwind: There are a number of Buddhists in Play as Being, though many, probably most, are not
    Kelwen Landar: yeh, well im not trying to do one or the other, or even combine the two, its more that im just interested, as id like answers to some of my own opinions if that makes sense
    Kelwen Landar: i mean, in things like rebirth..
    Wol Euler: well, perhaps we can help. Where shall we start :-)
    Wol Euler: hello *********
    Kelwen Landar: i have my own opinion, but id like to look at it more deeply from that viewpoint

    Kelwen was on a quest and wanted to talk about it - something we were delighted to assist. Meanwhile We had a visitor on a different sort of quest. She sat down on the edge of the table. Shortly after, Gaya arrived too.

    ********* *****: hello
    ********* *****: what r we doing
    ********* *****: !?!?!?!
    Storm Nordwind: We are having a discussion about Play as Being. What you are doing I have no clue :)
    ********* *****: i dont know what im doing
    Storm Nordwind chuckles
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Wol Euler: well, you are quite new :-)
    Kelwen Landar: Hi Gaya
    Storm Nordwind: Greetings Gaya
    Wol Euler: hello gaya
    ********* *****: hello

    Our vistor managed to find the way to sit on a cushion.

    ********* *****: there we go!
    Kelwen Landar: as i was saying....
    Wol Euler: please :-)
    ********* *****: yes
    Kelwen Landar: i started looking at rebirth first..
    ********* *****: i dont belive in rebirth
    Kelwen Landar: as its something i already 'believed' altho probobly 'loosely'
    ********* *****: oh
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Kelwen Landar: only in the sense that i feel that it may somehow be related to my actions/behaviour..
    ********* *****: i dont belive in any god either
    Storm Nordwind: That sounds like a positive reflective approach Kelwen. Did you make any headway?
    Kelwen Landar: well, i think the first hurdle was, i don't know how to put it... the whole issue of having a 'soul'
    Kelwen Landar: i dont think i even have my own opinion on that..
    ********* *****: bye
    Kelwen Landar: only that i feel were made up of 'something' and that it can move around..
    Wol Euler: bye *********, take care.
    Kelwen Landar: bye
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Storm Nordwind waves

    Our visitor left as suddenly as she had arrived. Life is like that.

    Kelwen Landar: but i don't understand how/if that relates to others
    Wol Euler sighs. The young are so impatient.
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Gaya Ethaniel looks away... she's impatient even though old enough

    Wise thoughts from Gaya.

    Kelwen Landar: i mean in the sense that my actions could inadvertently affect someone else..
    Kelwen Landar: (was she new to sl?)
    Wol Euler: three months but I'd bet she has logged very few hours
    Storm Nordwind: Have you tried to investigate these notions through experience, Kelwen, or are you trying to work it out through reason?
    Kelwen Landar: im a whole 6 weeks hehe
    Kelwen Landar: through reason i suppose
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Kelwen Landar: im just adamant that *that* is what happens after 'now'
    Storm Nordwind: Can be tricky to do starting from reason - at least I find it so. For myself, I try and start from experience and let it inform my thoughts.
    Kelwen Landar: but how can you relate rebirth to your own experience? (sorry to sound stupid)
    Kelwen Landar: thats why im looking from a factual pov
    Kelwen Landar: to try and guide me i suppose
    Kelwen Landar: im not even sure...
    Storm Nordwind: That's OK - I understand your point of view
    Storm Nordwind: One way to analyse it from experience is to probe memories.
    Storm Nordwind: But even then, one has to learn to separate reality and illusion
    Storm Nordwind: And many say there is no dividing line! :)
    Kelwen Landar: i think id agree with that to a point
    Storm Nordwind: One thing that I really like about this Play as Being practice is that is centred on experience. We discuss these experiences later, perhaps try and theorise about them, but we are not tied to a particular model - unless we want to be individually.
    Wol Euler: let me introduce here the conversation that Kelwen and I were having :-)
    Wol Euler: [13:39] Wol Euler: one of hte differences between this place and "religious" institutions is that we start from the position of not-knowing, and look at the world.
    [13:40] Kelwen Landar: im in good stead then, im deffinetly ''Not knowing'' hehe
    [13:40] Kelwen Landar: id just love to be able to pin my beliefs on something
    [13:40] Wol Euler: and there is nothing wrong with questions, on the contrary!
    [13:40] Kelwen Landar: something factual...real..
    [13:41] Kelwen Landar: to back up how i feel about everything
    [13:41] Kelwen Landar: to believe in that, and have more knowledge
    Gaya Ethaniel reads. One moment
    Wol Euler: because that maps onto where you are now, Storm :-)
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Gaya Ethaniel thanks Wol
    Wol Euler: yw

    The quest for knowledge... interesting as I was just editing something for Kira where we were discussing various "ways of knowing". We were putting words to the idea of not losing touch with the experiential roots. I recalled those people who wanted to explain everything, and I had a playful thought.

    Storm Nordwind: The urge to have belief is important to many. It is not necessary in Play as Being I find. And yet the discussions we have are fascinating...
    Wol Euler nods
    Storm Nordwind: Many very learned people have many very strong beliefs...
    Storm Nordwind: and sometimes they find that the hardest thing is letting go of those beliefs for a while...
    Kelwen Landar: i was just thinking that...
    Storm Nordwind: suspending belief rather than disbelief!
    Wol Euler: yes! heheheheh
    Kelwen Landar: i think some i may need to just let go of a tiny bit
    Kelwen Landar: so i can see the other side perhaps
    Kelwen Landar: or see it more deeply
    Storm Nordwind: I'm sure that is the case for most if not all of us
    Kelwen Landar: without preconceived ideas
    Storm Nordwind: yes indeed
    Kelwen Landar: i tried to do that whilst reading about 'Rebirth'..
    Wol Euler: (I'm sorry about this, but I will have to leave early today. Take care, enjoy, be happy)
    Kelwen Landar: bye bye
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Storm Nordwind: bye Wol
    Kelwen Landar: but i still couldnt quite grasp it
    Storm Nordwind: I also will only stay until the hour - sadly I have more, work, then sleep, then teach!
    Kelwen Landar: its early days tho
    Gaya Ethaniel: I'm afraid I need to move also. Nice to see you both. Good day/night.
    Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
    Kelwen Landar: bye Gaya
    Storm Nordwind: OK Gaya
    Kelwen Landar: nice to see you again

    Kelwen and I now had the pavilion to ourselves.

    Storm Nordwind is hesitant to venture his thoughts on rebirth
    Kelwen Landar: I dont expect you too...
    Kelwen Landar: im just thinking alloud :)
    Storm Nordwind: You're very welcome to think aloud
    Kelwen Landar: i need to come to my own understanding
    Kelwen Landar: and find a place where im happy
    Storm Nordwind: without or within?
    Kelwen Landar: of the belief do you mean?
    Storm Nordwind: I mean this place where you are happy - is this metaphorical?
    Kelwen Landar: no
    Storm Nordwind: A physical local. A method of practice in real life perhaps?
    Kelwen Landar: im not happy with my lack of 'information' over something that is actually really important to me
    Storm Nordwind: By rebirth, do you mean reincarnation or somesuch?
    Kelwen Landar: yes
    Storm Nordwind: hmm...
    Kelwen Landar: what i feel would happen to me after this life
    Storm Nordwind: What are you looking for? A convincing argument? Evidence of some kind?
    Kelwen Landar: convincing arguement i suppose
    Kelwen Landar: i dont think its valid for me to say i believe ill come back as something 'just because'
    Storm Nordwind: For as many arguments that could convince you that reincarnation existed, there are at least as many that would have you be convinced that it does not
    Kelwen Landar: and ive always been a bit anti following a set religion, so havent looked at it from another pov
    Kelwen Landar: well i already have my own mindset on the fact that it does happen..
    Kelwen Landar: so i wouldnt be swayed in that way
    Storm Nordwind: Have you read people like Edgar Cayce?
    Kelwen Landar: no
    Storm Nordwind remembers his study of The Sleeping Prophet from his quest in the 70s
    Kelwen Landar: he;s a psychic isnt he?
    Storm Nordwind: Yes, of sorts
    Storm Nordwind: That is wide term
    Kelwen Landar: how does that relate to what we were saying?
    Kelwen Landar: maybe i should look him up..
    Storm Nordwind: He could recall the past lives of others
    Kelwen Landar: oh i see
    Storm Nordwind: when in a sleeping trance
    Kelwen Landar: okay

    Since we were discussing this kind of topic, I raised another related one briefly before we closed. Karma. And Kelwen voiced a thought-provoking question, which I realised I already knew the answer to, even though I'd neither thought about the question nor the answer before.

    Storm Nordwind: From a Buddhist point of view, the idea of reincarnation is intertwined with the idea of karma
    Kelwen Landar: yes, and that is my belief, to a point
    Storm Nordwind: to which point? :)
    Kelwen Landar: as i said, i believe its linked to some degree to our actions
    Kelwen Landar: well to the point in which i dont understand how it can relate to *everyones* karma
    Kelwen Landar: i dont see how it goes past ones self
    Storm Nordwind: I find that karma is a fabulous model for making sense of the world. It's not the only model, but it is self-consistent and a powerful and useful tool
    Kelwen Landar: i try to live by that to some degree
    Storm Nordwind: There is only one answer, as far as I'm concerned, as to how it can relate to everyone's karma
    Kelwen Landar: which is..
    Storm Nordwind: It is something that I'd heard about for 40 years...
    Storm Nordwind: that I'd even argued for and against for some of that time...
    Storm Nordwind: but only this year experienced for myself through Buddhist meditation...
    Storm Nordwind: and again through Play as Being exercises
    Storm Nordwind: And that is this...
    Storm Nordwind: That the separation that 'we' feel is very much an illusion.
    Storm Nordwind: And if we are all actually part of Being or Tao or whatever, then it is easy to understand karma and how it works
    Storm Nordwind: Until this year, it was just an idea for me
    Storm Nordwind: Today it is reality for me
    Kelwen Landar: :)
    Kelwen Landar: i understand what you mean
    Kelwen Landar: thanks for takin the time to go through all of this
    Kelwen Landar: and for listening

    We wrapped up.

    Storm Nordwind: You are most welcome. You have been asked before I expect about publishing these logs with your conversation in, yes?
    Kelwen Landar: yes
    Kelwen Landar: thats fine
    Storm Nordwind smiles
    Storm Nordwind: May I ask your time zone Kelwen?
    Kelwen Landar: im in the uk
    Storm Nordwind: Ah yes. Me too
    Storm Nordwind: Doubtless we shall meet again then
    Kelwen Landar: well take care
    Kelwen Landar: was nice to meet you
    Storm Nordwind: Namaste
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