2008.09.18 13:00 - Suspending Belief

The guardian for this meeting was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

Wol was waiting for me as I crash-landed with such grace on the pavilion table. We were joined shortly after by Kelwen.

Wol Euler: hello storm
Storm Nordwind: Hi Wol
Storm Nordwind: Hi Kelwen
Kelwen Landar: Hello Storm
Kelwen Landar: Hello Wol
Wol Euler looks up from Adelene's book.. Hi Kelwen
Wol Euler looks around the table. It's fascinating how people choose where to sit in groups.
Wol Euler: like placing the first few stones on a Go board :-)
Storm Nordwind: Another Go player Wol?
Wol Euler: oh no, lower than amateur. Interested observer.
Wol Euler: I found a teach-yourself-go website and am fighting through it, but I just don't "see" the game yet
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: I can recommend some downloadable tutors
Wol Euler: for Mac? that would be nice, thanks.
Storm Nordwind: Oh for a Mac... hmmm.... maybe not then
Wol Euler: well, I have Virtual PC so I can run Windows XP software.
Storm Nordwind: I would first of all do the tutorial on the BGA website and then download igowin which will teach you basic tactics on a small 9x9 board

I was referring to http://www.britgo.org/ and http://www.smart-games.com/igowin.html

Wol Euler makes a note. Thanks.
Wol Euler: btw, I want to put up a test autologging unit here as soon as it's stable, to test it under real loading conditions.
Wol Euler: It's not quite ready yet, I'm having memory overflow problems.
Storm Nordwind: That's good. Although 'load' is unlikely at the 13:00 sessions! ;)
Wol Euler: heheeh
Wol Euler: the US evenings are too late for us Euros though.
Wol Euler: so I won't see it failing :-(
Storm Nordwind: Ah... hmm... true. But how would you know if it failed? Would it know itself and be able to email you?
Wol Euler: yes, it IMs me very time it does something significant.
Wol Euler: and Fael has a prototype server listening already, we can check its logs.
Storm Nordwind: Good! We have progress then :)

I suddenly realised that Wol and I were carrying on as though no one else was there!

Storm Nordwind wonders if the patiently listening Kelwen knows what we're talking about :)
Wol Euler: indeed we do. I want to have this running by the 23rd, to have a full week of live load testing before switching over -- which I still want to say is October 1.
Kelwen Landar: i have absolutely no idea, sorry
Wol Euler laughs. Sorry, I got carried away.
Kelwen Landar: im often quiet tho, i dont often have anything to contribute
Kelwen Landar: so im just listening and learning all the time
Wol Euler: Fael and I are working on system to automate the recording and publishing of these meetings, which is presently done by hand.
Kelwen Landar: oh i see

I checked the Wiki to see if Kelwen had been here before. She had. But I didn't know how much she knew about why we were here. I probed gently to see if I needed to explain things.

Storm Nordwind: I don't think we've met before Kelwen, but I know you've been before. Have you tried this Play as Being practice that gets discussed here?
Kelwen Landar: no, the whole thing is totally new to me to be honest
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: ok
Kelwen Landar: i stumbled across it by accident..
Kelwen Landar: and was interested enough to want to come back
Kelwen Landar: so i have been..
Storm Nordwind: I see. Has anyone explained any of the details yet? I ask because I don't want to bore you with stuff you already know!
Kelwen Landar: well ive read the site..
Kelwen Landar: and understand about the 9 seconds..
Storm Nordwind nods
Storm Nordwind: Had a go yourself yet? It's certainly easy to get started.
Kelwen Landar: i was looking for information on meditation, and somewhere nice to just relax, and i thought this could be a good way of gettin started
Kelwen Landar: as i find it hard to sit and just 'be' for too long..
Kelwen Landar: yes, i have been trying
Storm Nordwind: Then 9 seconds sounds ideal! :)
Kelwen Landar: yes :)
Wol Euler chuckles
Kelwen Landar: i found the place just down from here, that has notecards
Storm Nordwind: Has anyone mentioned that we suggest noting down your experiences afterwards, no matter how briefly - even a single word ... ?
Kelwen Landar: yes they have
Kelwen Landar: i have been :)
Storm Nordwind: Cool! Some people even ventured to publish these in their blogs. Many others keep them private. Whichever is not so important as having the chance to look over them from time to time
Kelwen Landar: well i tend to see/think the same thing/s when im still... which is why ive tried so hard not to be up until recently
Kelwen Landar: its more an exercise for me in being able to let go of what comes into my head, without it escalating
Storm Nordwind nods
Wol Euler nods
Kelwen Landar: so that i can then learn to do that at other times
Storm Nordwind: Yes I understand that
Kelwen Landar: hopfully it will help
Storm Nordwind: I'm sure it will. And there are several meditation techniques in established traditions that address similar things too
Kelwen Landar: i havent looked into anything like that as yet
Kelwen Landar: although i have tried to look more into buddhism, as ive been a few times that some of my beliefs are similar in that way
Storm Nordwind: That's fine. And although we have one or two people here who practise those things, they [those things] are not specifically linked to Play as Being
Kelwen Landar: altho im having trouble understanding alot of it to be honest
Storm Nordwind: There are a number of Buddhists in Play as Being, though many, probably most, are not
Kelwen Landar: yeh, well im not trying to do one or the other, or even combine the two, its more that im just interested, as id like answers to some of my own opinions if that makes sense
Kelwen Landar: i mean, in things like rebirth..
Wol Euler: well, perhaps we can help. Where shall we start :-)
Wol Euler: hello *********
Kelwen Landar: i have my own opinion, but id like to look at it more deeply from that viewpoint

Kelwen was on a quest and wanted to talk about it - something we were delighted to assist. Meanwhile We had a visitor on a different sort of quest. She sat down on the edge of the table. Shortly after, Gaya arrived too.

********* *****: hello
********* *****: what r we doing
********* *****: !?!?!?!
Storm Nordwind: We are having a discussion about Play as Being. What you are doing I have no clue :)
********* *****: i dont know what im doing
Storm Nordwind chuckles
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Wol Euler: well, you are quite new :-)
Kelwen Landar: Hi Gaya
Storm Nordwind: Greetings Gaya
Wol Euler: hello gaya
********* *****: hello

Our vistor managed to find the way to sit on a cushion.

********* *****: there we go!
Kelwen Landar: as i was saying....
Wol Euler: please :-)
********* *****: yes
Kelwen Landar: i started looking at rebirth first..
********* *****: i dont belive in rebirth
Kelwen Landar: as its something i already 'believed' altho probobly 'loosely'
********* *****: oh
Storm Nordwind nods
Kelwen Landar: only in the sense that i feel that it may somehow be related to my actions/behaviour..
********* *****: i dont belive in any god either
Storm Nordwind: That sounds like a positive reflective approach Kelwen. Did you make any headway?
Kelwen Landar: well, i think the first hurdle was, i don't know how to put it... the whole issue of having a 'soul'
Kelwen Landar: i dont think i even have my own opinion on that..
********* *****: bye
Kelwen Landar: only that i feel were made up of 'something' and that it can move around..
Wol Euler: bye *********, take care.
Kelwen Landar: bye
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Storm Nordwind waves

Our visitor left as suddenly as she had arrived. Life is like that.

Kelwen Landar: but i don't understand how/if that relates to others
Wol Euler sighs. The young are so impatient.
Storm Nordwind smiles
Gaya Ethaniel looks away... she's impatient even though old enough

Wise thoughts from Gaya.

Kelwen Landar: i mean in the sense that my actions could inadvertently affect someone else..
Kelwen Landar: (was she new to sl?)
Wol Euler: three months but I'd bet she has logged very few hours
Storm Nordwind: Have you tried to investigate these notions through experience, Kelwen, or are you trying to work it out through reason?
Kelwen Landar: im a whole 6 weeks hehe
Kelwen Landar: through reason i suppose
Storm Nordwind nods
Kelwen Landar: im just adamant that *that* is what happens after 'now'
Storm Nordwind: Can be tricky to do starting from reason - at least I find it so. For myself, I try and start from experience and let it inform my thoughts.
Kelwen Landar: but how can you relate rebirth to your own experience? (sorry to sound stupid)
Kelwen Landar: thats why im looking from a factual pov
Kelwen Landar: to try and guide me i suppose
Kelwen Landar: im not even sure...
Storm Nordwind: That's OK - I understand your point of view
Storm Nordwind: One way to analyse it from experience is to probe memories.
Storm Nordwind: But even then, one has to learn to separate reality and illusion
Storm Nordwind: And many say there is no dividing line! :)
Kelwen Landar: i think id agree with that to a point
Storm Nordwind: One thing that I really like about this Play as Being practice is that is centred on experience. We discuss these experiences later, perhaps try and theorise about them, but we are not tied to a particular model - unless we want to be individually.
Wol Euler: let me introduce here the conversation that Kelwen and I were having :-)
Wol Euler: [13:39] Wol Euler: one of hte differences between this place and "religious" institutions is that we start from the position of not-knowing, and look at the world.
[13:40] Kelwen Landar: im in good stead then, im deffinetly ''Not knowing'' hehe
[13:40] Kelwen Landar: id just love to be able to pin my beliefs on something
[13:40] Wol Euler: and there is nothing wrong with questions, on the contrary!
[13:40] Kelwen Landar: something factual...real..
[13:41] Kelwen Landar: to back up how i feel about everything
[13:41] Kelwen Landar: to believe in that, and have more knowledge
Gaya Ethaniel reads. One moment
Wol Euler: because that maps onto where you are now, Storm :-)
Storm Nordwind nods
Gaya Ethaniel thanks Wol
Wol Euler: yw

The quest for knowledge... interesting as I was just editing something for Kira where we were discussing various "ways of knowing". We were putting words to the idea of not losing touch with the experiential roots. I recalled those people who wanted to explain everything, and I had a playful thought.

Storm Nordwind: The urge to have belief is important to many. It is not necessary in Play as Being I find. And yet the discussions we have are fascinating...
Wol Euler nods
Storm Nordwind: Many very learned people have many very strong beliefs...
Storm Nordwind: and sometimes they find that the hardest thing is letting go of those beliefs for a while...
Kelwen Landar: i was just thinking that...
Storm Nordwind: suspending belief rather than disbelief!
Wol Euler: yes! heheheheh
Kelwen Landar: i think some i may need to just let go of a tiny bit
Kelwen Landar: so i can see the other side perhaps
Kelwen Landar: or see it more deeply
Storm Nordwind: I'm sure that is the case for most if not all of us
Kelwen Landar: without preconceived ideas
Storm Nordwind: yes indeed
Kelwen Landar: i tried to do that whilst reading about 'Rebirth'..
Wol Euler: (I'm sorry about this, but I will have to leave early today. Take care, enjoy, be happy)
Kelwen Landar: bye bye
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Storm Nordwind: bye Wol
Kelwen Landar: but i still couldnt quite grasp it
Storm Nordwind: I also will only stay until the hour - sadly I have more, work, then sleep, then teach!
Kelwen Landar: its early days tho
Gaya Ethaniel: I'm afraid I need to move also. Nice to see you both. Good day/night.
Gaya Ethaniel: _/!\_
Kelwen Landar: bye Gaya
Storm Nordwind: OK Gaya
Kelwen Landar: nice to see you again

Kelwen and I now had the pavilion to ourselves.

Storm Nordwind is hesitant to venture his thoughts on rebirth
Kelwen Landar: I dont expect you too...
Kelwen Landar: im just thinking alloud :)
Storm Nordwind: You're very welcome to think aloud
Kelwen Landar: i need to come to my own understanding
Kelwen Landar: and find a place where im happy
Storm Nordwind: without or within?
Kelwen Landar: of the belief do you mean?
Storm Nordwind: I mean this place where you are happy - is this metaphorical?
Kelwen Landar: no
Storm Nordwind: A physical local. A method of practice in real life perhaps?
Kelwen Landar: im not happy with my lack of 'information' over something that is actually really important to me
Storm Nordwind: By rebirth, do you mean reincarnation or somesuch?
Kelwen Landar: yes
Storm Nordwind: hmm...
Kelwen Landar: what i feel would happen to me after this life
Storm Nordwind: What are you looking for? A convincing argument? Evidence of some kind?
Kelwen Landar: convincing arguement i suppose
Kelwen Landar: i dont think its valid for me to say i believe ill come back as something 'just because'
Storm Nordwind: For as many arguments that could convince you that reincarnation existed, there are at least as many that would have you be convinced that it does not
Kelwen Landar: and ive always been a bit anti following a set religion, so havent looked at it from another pov
Kelwen Landar: well i already have my own mindset on the fact that it does happen..
Kelwen Landar: so i wouldnt be swayed in that way
Storm Nordwind: Have you read people like Edgar Cayce?
Kelwen Landar: no
Storm Nordwind remembers his study of The Sleeping Prophet from his quest in the 70s
Kelwen Landar: he;s a psychic isnt he?
Storm Nordwind: Yes, of sorts
Storm Nordwind: That is wide term
Kelwen Landar: how does that relate to what we were saying?
Kelwen Landar: maybe i should look him up..
Storm Nordwind: He could recall the past lives of others
Kelwen Landar: oh i see
Storm Nordwind: when in a sleeping trance
Kelwen Landar: okay

Since we were discussing this kind of topic, I raised another related one briefly before we closed. Karma. And Kelwen voiced a thought-provoking question, which I realised I already knew the answer to, even though I'd neither thought about the question nor the answer before.

Storm Nordwind: From a Buddhist point of view, the idea of reincarnation is intertwined with the idea of karma
Kelwen Landar: yes, and that is my belief, to a point
Storm Nordwind: to which point? :)
Kelwen Landar: as i said, i believe its linked to some degree to our actions
Kelwen Landar: well to the point in which i dont understand how it can relate to *everyones* karma
Kelwen Landar: i dont see how it goes past ones self
Storm Nordwind: I find that karma is a fabulous model for making sense of the world. It's not the only model, but it is self-consistent and a powerful and useful tool
Kelwen Landar: i try to live by that to some degree
Storm Nordwind: There is only one answer, as far as I'm concerned, as to how it can relate to everyone's karma
Kelwen Landar: which is..
Storm Nordwind: It is something that I'd heard about for 40 years...
Storm Nordwind: that I'd even argued for and against for some of that time...
Storm Nordwind: but only this year experienced for myself through Buddhist meditation...
Storm Nordwind: and again through Play as Being exercises
Storm Nordwind: And that is this...
Storm Nordwind: That the separation that 'we' feel is very much an illusion.
Storm Nordwind: And if we are all actually part of Being or Tao or whatever, then it is easy to understand karma and how it works
Storm Nordwind: Until this year, it was just an idea for me
Storm Nordwind: Today it is reality for me
Kelwen Landar: :)
Kelwen Landar: i understand what you mean
Kelwen Landar: thanks for takin the time to go through all of this
Kelwen Landar: and for listening

We wrapped up.

Storm Nordwind: You are most welcome. You have been asked before I expect about publishing these logs with your conversation in, yes?
Kelwen Landar: yes
Kelwen Landar: thats fine
Storm Nordwind smiles
Storm Nordwind: May I ask your time zone Kelwen?
Kelwen Landar: im in the uk
Storm Nordwind: Ah yes. Me too
Storm Nordwind: Doubtless we shall meet again then
Kelwen Landar: well take care
Kelwen Landar: was nice to meet you
Storm Nordwind: Namaste