2009.03.01 07:00 - Freedom from Fears

Adams Rubble was guardian and is responsible for the comments

I had trouble logging in and arrived a few minutes late and Adelene was covering for me. Fael also was there waiting.When Wol sent me the link to the whole log, I realized nothing was missing on this end.

Fael Illyar: Hi Ade :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Adams :)
Adelene Dawner: Hiay Fa. ^.^
Adelene Dawner: Hey Adams :)
Adams Rubble: Thanks Ade :) I came in through Rieul
Adams Rubble: Buyeo must be closed down
Adams Rubble: Hell evertone
Adams Rubble: eveeyone
Adams Rubble: hello :)
PaB Listener Master: Adams Rubble has just claimed the session and will receive link to the log after the session is done. This replaces any previous claim.

Arisia arrived and eventually requested we call him Ari

Adams Rubble: Does anyone have anything they would like to discuss?
Adams Rubble: wb Arisia
Fael Illyar: Hi Arisia :)
Arisia Vita: Hi all

Pema and Scathach came next

Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)
Arisia Vita: Hope you all are well and happy
Adams Rubble: Hello Scath :)
Pema Pera: Hi everybody!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adams, Fael:)
Adams Rubble: Yes thank you Arisia
Fael Illyar: Hi Pema :)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Adelene, Pema, Arisia

I asked again for a topic and made a typo

Adams Rubble: Does anyone have anything they would loike to share?
Pema Pera: (is that a Brooklyn accent?)
Pema Pera still confused about American accents . . . .
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Adams Rubble: no just bad typing
Pema Pera: psstttt
Squee: If God has created the world, his primary worry was not to make its understanding easy for us.
Adams Rubble: :)
Adelene Dawner giggles at Squee ^.^
Scathach Rhiadra: :)

So without too much ado I threw out some stuff

Adams Rubble: I was ready some old logs yesterday and one of the jokes started me thinking
Adams Rubble: It was a session between Pema and a newcomer back in April
Pema Pera: wow, almost a year ago . . . .
Adams Rubble: The newcomer joked that he was studying Buddhism in RL and so he thought his avatar should be studying Buddhism in SL
Adams Rubble: Pema joked with about various things our avatars might be
Adams Rubble: including one of my favorites
Adams Rubble: "anythingists"
Pema Pera: (probably sounds better than "nothingists")
Adams Rubble: I was thinking my avatar has been much more active pursuing Christianity and Buddhism than I ever would have been
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: I am kind of an anythingist often :)
Pema Pera loistening intently

Adams Rubble: I was wondering if anyone else had experiences like that
Fael Illyar smiles.
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Adams Rubble: For me separation has helped me see things that it might have taken longer to see

Scath put it much better than I had

Scathach Rhiadra: I have fund a certain freedom in SL, and coupled with the diversity of people I've met it is 'liberating', in a way
Adams Rubble: yes Scath that's a nice way to put it
Pema Pera: separation in what way, Adams?
Adams Rubble: :)
Adams Rubble: Well, maybe Scath put it better
Scathach Rhiadra: maybe gives 'extra degrees of freedom' as Pema has mentioned before, though in a different context:)
Adams Rubble: It gave me the freedom to just let my avatar go and become open to all kinds of new ideas
Adams Rubble: sort of broke down my walls of defense
Arisia Vita: defense against what?

I was still fumbling and the others seemed to be wondering what I was talking about

Adams Rubble: It gave me freedom to explore places that I never would have gone to in real life
Adams Rubble thinking about Arisia's question
Arisia Vita: no hurry, take your time
Adams Rubble: You are all working on my choice of words, thank you :)

I tried fear and that seemed to get things rolling

Adams Rubble: Maybe it was fear to just open up
Adams Rubble: fear of what you may ask?
Arisia Vita: that I understand, perhaps better than most
Adams Rubble: It comes back to Scath's "freedom"
Pema Pera: in what way, Arisia?
Adams Rubble: freedom to explore
Adams Rubble: to be
Arisia Vita: to help
Adams Rubble: sorry to interrupt Pema's question
Pema Pera: oh no, Adams, not to worry :)
Pema Pera: fear for opening up is such an interesting topic
Arisia Vita: is it common?
Pema Pera: ubiquitous :)
Arisia Vita: but to varying degress?
Arisia Vita: degrees
Arisia Vita: why is it so common?
Arisia Vita: what is its source?
Adams Rubble: Some of the source is we worry about what people will think of us
Arisia Vita: but why do we worry?
Adams Rubble: Somebody may have said something that makes us hesitant
Adams Rubble: Our identities can be very protective of themselves

Fael points to a main source of our fear of exploring

Fael Illyar: We're used to being attacked for being different. That's very common, especially among children.
Adams Rubble: oh yes Fael
Arisia Vita: good point Fael
Adams Rubble: So we build masks
Arisia Vita: why is being different a reason to be attacked?
Fael Illyar: fear of unknown
Adams Rubble: It makes the attackers feel good?
Fael Illyar: the response to fear is either to fight or to flee.
Adams Rubble: yes fael
Fael Illyar: normal one that is
Fael Illyar: so, being different gets you both shunned and attacked.
Arisia Vita: I agree, it just seems such a waste of potential
Adams Rubble: Here in SL we have the freedom to be different
Adams Rubble: yes Arisia
Arisia Vita: please call me Ari, shorter and easier and more friendly to boot :)
Fael Illyar: Sure, ari :)
Arisia Vita: thanks
Adams Rubble: OK Ari :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Universal Bullying

Pema Pera: yes, it is very interesting to see how society forces a certain degree of sameness . . . probably for good evolutionary reasons
Adams Rubble: well there were the tribes
Pema Pera: in some countries more than in others, but I think the children bullying which Fael refered to is probably universal
Adams Rubble: people banded togther for protection
Pema Pera: children can be so cruel in that respect
Adams Rubble nods
Arisia Vita: and bullies seek out the weak and vulnerable
Arisia Vita: easy targets
Adams Rubble: and many of them grow up to be bullying adults
Arisia Vita: many of them never grow up at all

Bullying aside, we can drop our fears

Pema Pera: but perhaps we don't have to worry about the source of our fears . . . When we remember any event where we opened up, in a reasonably careful way at least, we are so fearful before we open up, and so relieved and happy after we do it . . . . and yet, the next time we repeat the problem, being full of fear again; we tend to forget our lessons learned . . .
Pema Pera: if we can just remember to drop our fear . . .
Pema Pera: . . .to drop the addiction to fear, the habitual fear . . .
Fael Illyar: not just drop the fear, drop the assumptions that lead to the fear.
Adams Rubble: and getting back to our avatars, it is a way to drop some of our fears without even knowing we are doing it
Adams Rubble: then we just have to learn from that
Fael Illyar: Yes, we have different sets of assumptions we apply to SL, so the fears here are also different
Pema Pera: how do you drop assumptions, Fael?
Adams Rubble: I expect the longer we stay the more likely we are to develop them in SL
Adams Rubble: but we start fresh and clean
Fael Illyar: Pema, you're asking me something that's kind of like "how do you move your hand?"
Arisia Vita: you first have to want to
Arisia Vita: either move your hand or drop assumptions
Adams Rubble nods
Fael Illyar: Yes, wanting to is important

Knowing/Learning

Adams Rubble: we have to learn what our "assumptions" are before we can drop them
Arisia Vita: often they are clearer to others than ourselves
Pema Pera: if I know where my hand is, and I know how to move it, sure, than I can move it -- but to drop assumptions, it may be difficult if we don't know them
Adams Rubble nods
Adams Rubble: to both Ari and Pema
Pema Pera: yes, thinking alike here, Adams
Pema Pera: so knowing -> wanting to -> dropping
Fael Illyar: well, wanting to can come before knowing but won't be too helpful without a target :)
Pema Pera: :-)
Fael Illyar: actually... wanting to know -> knowing -> wanting to drop it -> dropping
Scathach Rhiadra nods

Just drop it all

Pema Pera: so a central question is: to what extent to we have to analyze, to go back to the source? And to what extent may it be possible to drop without analyzing all assumptions we may have?
Pema Pera: *do we have
Arisia Vita: it can feel so much safer in our shells though...
Fael Illyar: Arisia, that's until you drop the assumptions that you are not safe outside it :)
Adams Rubble thinking about Pema's question
Fael Illyar: Oops, Ari.
Arisia Vita: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: or a combinatin of both Pema?
Pema Pera: yes, certainly
Adams Rubble: It seems to me at times I have been able to just drop everything at once but I am still not sure enough to know how
Adams Rubble: yes Scath
Fael Illyar: Yes, that happened to me too a few times, dropping everything at once.
Fael Illyar: It gave me a lot of clues on how to get there more permanently.
Adams Rubble: It just sorts of happens...is that the wu wei?
Arisia Vita: to me, the power of a simple outstretched hand can be awesome
Fael Illyar: but, even the assumptions are not there all the time. They come in response to triggers.
Fael Illyar: they're not always present
Adams Rubble nods to Fael
Pema Pera: it "just happens" like a jazz musician "just plays" . . . but a bit of training helps :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Fael Illyar: so, until you learn not to make them again, you'll regain them eventually if you just drop everything without knowing what it was.
Pema Pera: yes, Ari, single moments and gestures can make all the difference
Pema Pera: but some kind of training is essential -- for a jazz musician, or for someone trying to get over fear of heights, say; that person *knows* that he has the wrong assumption about hight, yet it may not be so easy to drop that

buddha stepped in

Fael Illyar: Hi Buddha :)
Pema Pera: Hi Buddha
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello buddha
Arisia Vita: welcome Buddha
buddha Nirvana: Hi everyone @))
Adams Rubble: Hello buddha
Fael Illyar: yes, it's not just dropping the assumption. It's learning to not make it again.
Fael Illyar: if you drop it and then make it again the next second, that doesn't change much
Adams Rubble: learning to see them too
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: and dropping yourself is far more effective than trying to drop all assumptions one by one -- a great shortcut :)
Pema Pera: that's the core idea of "Play as Being"
Adams Rubble nods
Pema Pera: playing as if everything has been dropped already
Fael Illyar: Yes, it's a shortcut but not a perfect one :)
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Pema Pera: and exploring how that might feel
Fael Illyar: it does give you clues though
Pema Pera: no path is perfect, indeed
Pema Pera: including this path of exploring how it might feel to be perfect :)
Fael Illyar: it works because a lot of the assumptions have no base without a self.
Adams Rubble remembers Pema was responsible for showing the way twice to dropping everything
Pema Pera: twice?
Adams Rubble: the training :)
MystiTool HUD 1.3.0-freebie: Entering chat range: Lunabel Core (19m)
Adams Rubble: yes once in July and once in December
Adams Rubble: Hello Lunabel
Fael Illyar: I'd think Pema just pointed the direction :) You found it yourself.
Pema Pera: Hi Lunabel, come join us if you like
Fael Illyar: Hi Lunabel :)
Adams Rubble: /nme not so sure about Fael's observation
Pema Pera: from the point of view of Being (which is no point :) there are neither self nor other as real entities, Being is "doing" everything in a non-doing way
Pema Pera: but this gets very hard to talk about
Pema Pera: the more we learn not-doing, the more it becomes clear, in practice
Fael Illyar: observation?
Adams Rubble: statement :)
Fael Illyar: opinion :)
Arisia Vita: why is it hard to talk about Pema?
Pema Pera: we can learn more and more to "line up with the Universe" so to speak
Pema Pera: but that does not lend itself to definitions and formulations
Pema Pera: such as are used while speaking with words
Scathach Rhiadra: the morre we practice te clearer it becomes
Pema Pera: you can point, as Fael said, and try out, and share the trying
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: if you really really try, you recognize others really really trying, and then communication can flow, even with imperfect words
Adams Rubble: yes, it so often happens here it seems
Pema Pera: yes, and having someone not joining that dance, as happened last month, made the difference so very clear
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Adams Rubble nods sadly
Arisia Vita: I missed that, unfortunately, perhaps I could have helped...

Chiaiu, who I had never met, joins us

Arisia Vita: welcome Chiaiu
Adams Rubble: Hello Chiaiu
Fael Illyar: Hello Chiaiu :)
Pema Pera: Hi Chiaiu, good to see you again!
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Chiaiu
Adams Rubble: Ah, so no need for introduction?
Pema Pera: nope
Adams Rubble: :)
Chiaiu Chiung: hello everybody
Adams Rubble: nice to meet you Chiaiu
buddha Nirvana: Hi Chiaiu:)
Pema Pera: we were talking about the limitations of using words, Chiaiu
Chiaiu Chiung: ok
Pema Pera: and how we recognize each other's attempts to search for truth
Pema Pera: even if we can't quite put our finger on it in precise definitions
Chiaiu Chiung: ok
Adams Rubble loves Chiaiu's 1st life response on her profile

Chiaiu's profile more or less said she had one (1st life) and she liked it; buddha leaves

buddha Nirvana: Excuse me all _/\_
Adams Rubble: bye buddha :)
Pema Pera: bye Bud!
Scathach Rhiadra: bye buddha
buddha Nirvana: Bye for now:)
Chiaiu Chiung: bye
Arisia Vita: be well and happy Buddha
Pema Pera: also Chiaiu's first page fits in well with Play as Being:
Pema Pera: I am here to find what I have not been looking for, and to let go what I found
Chiaiu Chiung: :)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pema Pera: we were just talking about dropping things, letting go, Ciaiu
Chiaiu Chiung: sounded good to me, not really sure where it was coming from...
Pema Pera: it's a wonderful quote, whatever it origins :)
Adams Rubble: :)
PaB Listener Master: Adams Rubble has just claimed the session and will receive link to the log after the session is done. This replaces any previous claim.

Just to be sure I had claimed the log again, this time wearing my group tag. Alas, I'm still waiting for it

Chiaiu Chiung: however, it is so easy to write it into the profile, not always easy to live it
Pema Pera: From now on, Google will maintain that the source of the quote is the PaB wiki :)
Pema Pera: yes, indeed, Chiaiu!
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: how do you try to live it, if I may ask, how do you remind yourself?
Chiaiu Chiung: hmmm. can't explain with words .... ;)
Chiaiu Chiung: I do nothing special to remind me
Chiaiu Chiung: I know it is important which already helps ... sometimes
Arisia Vita: words are often inadequate to convey meaning
Pema Pera: yes, respecting it helps already . . . and then a kind of training/reminders make it work better
Chiaiu Chiung: i also felt that reading books reminds you of these things
Chiaiu Chiung: there are a few which i already know
Chiaiu Chiung: but just reading a few pages remind me of what is important
Pema Pera: meditating or praying or other activity, anything that you can do at least once a day, including reading books, yes, indeed!
Pema Pera: frequency is important --- once a week is not enough it seems
Pema Pera: and once or twice a day may or may not be
Chiaiu Chiung: I tried with different meditations but never get it running for too long
Pema Pera: we here are going a bit overboard, with our once every quarter of an hour approach
Pema Pera: trading duration for frequency
Pema Pera: only a few minutes a day, but spread out over many many times
Chiaiu Chiung: then i became aware that every day life can also be meditation
Pema Pera: very much so!
Chiaiu Chiung: so i try to do things with awareness
Scathach Rhiadra nods
Chiaiu Chiung: can't sy to myself that I don't find time for it this way ;)
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: have you gotten a chance to look at our web site http://playasbeing.wik.is/ and did you perhaps try out the 9-sec explorations?
Chiaiu Chiung: i heard about it when i was here the first time
Chiaiu Chiung: it is surely a way that makes sense
Pema Pera: when you feel like trying it out a bit, I'd love to hear how it works for you in practice
Pema Pera: in due time :)
Pema Pera: (talking about time, I have to get going . . . )

Pema, Ari and Scath all depart

Fael Illyar: See you later Pema :)
Adams Rubble: bye Pema :)
Arisia Vita: bye Pema
Pema Pera: good seeing you all -- till next time!
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema:)
Chiaiu Chiung: bye
Arisia Vita: I must go too,sadly
Adams Rubble: bye Ari :)
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ari
Chiaiu Chiung: bye
Arisia Vita: be well and happy...
Chiaiu Chiung: Arisia
Adams Rubble: you 2
Scathach Rhiadra: and I must go too, see you all again soon, namasté
Adams Rubble: bye Scath :)
Chiaiu Chiung: bye
Adams Rubble: namaste
Fael Illyar: See you later Scath :)
Adams Rubble: I am a bit tired from the session; it covered quite a bit of ground :)
Fael Illyar: Ah, you're leaving too?
Fael Illyar: See you later Adams :)
Adams Rubble: No I am guardian and will stay until the end :)
Adams Rubble: just explaining my sudden quietness
Fael Illyar: Ah :)
Chiaiu Chiung: what is the average duration of the sessions?
Adams Rubble: They usually last an hour but sometimes we can go on quite long
Chiaiu Chiung: ok
Adams Rubble: I think there was one session that went all the way to the next one
Adams Rubble: 6 hours
Chiaiu Chiung: wow
Adams Rubble: but people wanted to set a record that couldn;t be broken :)
Chiaiu Chiung: this is just my second time here ... but i am sure i will come more often
Adams Rubble: That is wonderful
Fael Illyar: you sure it can't be broken? :)
Adams Rubble: only tied Fael :)
Fael Illyar: well, ok, for a session length no.
Adams Rubble: unless you count the two as one
Chiaiu Chiung: do you all know each other or is there much fluctuation?

I crashed here and missed that part of the log. Wol sent me the link and so here is the missing part:

Fael Illyar: but for how long you've been in a meeting it can :P
Fael Illyar: You get to know people when you participate :)
Fael Illyar: oh, Adams crashed I guess.
Chiaiu Chiung: seems so.. :(
Chiaiu Chiung: I think I will aslo go ... but I will come back :)
Chiaiu Chiung: also
Chiaiu Chiung: it was nice to meet you
Fael Illyar: Allright, se yo later Chiaiu :)
Fael Illyar: Nice t meet you too :)
Chiaiu Chiung: OK, Cu, bye :)
Fael Illyar: wb Adams :)

 When I came back fael was with a new arrival to SL and Fael and I talked to him a bit about second life whhile another visitor arrived and left

Fael and I then parted