2009.03.14 07:00 - defining differences

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Welcomings

Geo Netizen: Hi Lia
Lia Rikugun: hello geo
Geo Netizen: Hi Mickorod
Mickorod Renard: hiya
Lia Rikugun: hello mickorod
Mickorod Renard: never been to an early sitting before
Lia Rikugun: what is early?
Lia Rikugun: :P 3pm here
Geo Netizen nods
Mickorod Renard: he he ..early afternoon for me
Mickorod Renard: usually at work
Lia Rikugun: geo have you been here before ? (i am sorry I was not in PaB for a long time)
Lia Rikugun: long time = 2 weeks :(
Geo Netizen: A few times .... yes :)
Mickorod Renard: I am a guardian for mondays at 1 am
Lia Rikugun: ok wonderful so you dont need a notecard
Lia Rikugun: :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Geo Netizen: I do sub for GoC's on occassion
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema
Geo Netizen: I Pema
Lia Rikugun: hello pema
Geo Netizen: *Hi
Pema Pera: hey Lia, wie geht's dir (und wo?)?
Pema Pera: hi Mick and Geo!
Mickorod Renard: sorry I have missed phenem last 2 weeks Pema
Lia Rikugun: gut danke (Paris
Pema Pera: np Mick!
Pema Pera: I always enjoy visiting Paris
Mickorod Renard: read the log earlier for yesterday
Lia Rikugun: (I am sorry to of missing so much :()
Pema Pera: not to worry, Lia, there will be lots more :-)
Pema Pera: Yes, Mick?

 feeling the freedom while riding a (motor)bike compared to a car

Mickorod Renard: yes,,it looks like a good idea to re evaluate our position to date
Mickorod Renard: for me anyway,,cos I am getting lost
Pema Pera: ah, yes, in the phenomenology group
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: I had a nice experience yesterday
Lia Rikugun: yes?
Mickorod Renard: after thinking about previous p as b
Mickorod Renard: previous as of when I attended
Mickorod Renard: I was driving to work
Mickorod Renard: and the previous day I went to work on motorbike
Mickorod Renard: so,,2 diference
Mickorod Renard: and in the car I realised the diference between the 2
Mickorod Renard: I wanted to cut the roof of,,so that I would be free to look around
Mickorod Renard: roof off
Geo Netizen: Hi Alpha
Mickorod Renard: a similar feeling to seeing as being
Pema Pera: :-)
Mickorod Renard: I love the feeing when I am on motorbike,,the feeling of fredom
Lia Rikugun: :)
Geo Netizen: But you are much more venerable too :)
Lia Rikugun: (but not too fast :)
Pema Pera: I know the feeling, Mick, I used to ride a bike in Holland where I grew up, and only after I moved to the US I got a driver's licence for a car. It felt very odd at first, driving a car, all that superfluous stuff around me, who ordered that???
Geo Netizen: Hi Neela
Pema Pera: hi there Neela!
Lia Rikugun: hi neela

dropping defenses, remove the top of the head

Mickorod Renard: well,,that passed my mind too..similar to dropping your defences.or hang ups
Neela Blaisdale: Morning ( or whatever) everyone!
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Neela
Pema Pera: and in a car it felt very strange taking a turn, and not having your body do it, no leaning into a curve . . . .
Pema Pera: it felt as if I were watching a movie
Pema Pera: (Neela, we're comparing riding a motorbike to driving a car)
Mickorod Renard: yes,,its definately diferent
Mickorod Renard: It reminded me of a statement storm made,,about his top of head being removed
Lia Rikugun: what was this?
Pema Pera: unfortunately, that can happen with motorbikes, when you go to fast, as Lia said . . . . :-)
Pema Pera: *too
Mickorod Renard: he he
Geo Netizen: A car provides a barrier to the outside … rain …. wind …. sun ….
Pema Pera: yes, very much
Pema Pera: a nice model for ego fort
Mickorod Renard: can you remember what storm was refering to Pema?
Pema Pera: like you, to feel of suddenly being more open
Pema Pera: dropping defenses
Mickorod Renard: it was after we had tried an experiment

letting Being see, lifting the top of the head and get a "panoramic vision"

Pema Pera: habits
Pema Pera: YSBS probably
Pema Pera: the BS part :)
Mickorod Renard: that was it
Pema Pera: You Seeing first, then Being Seeing -- letting Being see instead of you trying to do the seeing
Pema Pera: "in the world but not of the world"
Mickorod Renard: yes..and we experienced the loss of the crouding in
Geo Netizen nods
Neela Blaisdale: loss of crowding in but if one carries out the car metaphor maybe sometimes also a loss of protection in some cases
Mickorod Renard: well i see a similarity,,maybe it is our want to control that restricts our freedom
Geo Netizen: Previous reference to quote by Storm: PaB log: You Seeing and Being Seeing At the end of such an exercise I used to feel as though the top of my head had lifted off! Now from Dakini's use of the term "panoramic vision", and from my own experiences of the last 100 days or so, I am thinking that perhaps these experience are actually same thing, except that with PaB we have a safer, ...
Mickorod Renard: cool
Pema Pera: yes, the safety is important, and definitely, cars are safer than motorbikes, for everyday use on crowded roads . . . .
Pema Pera: so if we can combine the safety of a car, and the more radical wildness of a bike . . . .
Pema Pera: perhaps PaB can offer that?
Mickorod Renard: yes please
Pema Pera: :-)

what can we loose?

Pema Pera: you've got nothing to lose but what you have :)
Pema Pera: (and that's quite a lot, actually!)
Geo Netizen: And most of what we have are appearances
Neela Blaisdale thinks that the safety of PaB is what allows us to explore

the danger of exposing our feelings

Mickorod Renard: I think sometimes we can feel that being open..and exposing our feelings is also like a danger
Pema Pera: ((but also very little . . . ))
Geo Netizen nods to Mickorod
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: when forced or premature is sure is
Pema Pera: *it sure is
Mickorod Renard: if you want to experience then its at some expense
Mickorod Renard: or exchange
Pema Pera: the greatest price to pay is "you" yourself, to hand that over
Pema Pera: "Thy will" in Christianity
Pema Pera: best bargain!
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Mickorod Renard: yes..I have come to terms with that notion,,through chrisianity
Pema Pera: greatest return :)
Pema Pera: "in the world not of the world" is equally powerful as "wu-wei", not doing
Pema Pera: and very similar
Mickorod Renard: although I am not , or do not think as a typical christian
Neela Blaisdale: as many of us are not....
Geo Netizen: Ahhh ... what is a typical Christian :)
Mickorod Renard: good question..
Neela Blaisdale: :) that too....
Neela Blaisdale: but many of us do not define ourselves as Christian...
Neela Blaisdale: at all...
Geo Netizen: I find more similarities with Buddhism than with some Christian sects
Neela Blaisdale: yet share the same sentiments
Geo Netizen: and same insights

being labeled and labelling

Mickorod Renard: Yes,, I struggle with both comformity, and with being labeled
Lia Rikugun: labels are always bad :)
Geo Netizen nods
Mickorod Renard: but I am spiritual in thinking
Geo Netizen: always too simplistic
Lia Rikugun: i try to loose tghese ideas of labels
Lia Rikugun: not easy...
Geo Netizen nods
Lia Rikugun: you labels almost everything without realizing
Mickorod Renard: yes
Geo Netizen: We all use labels to try to manage complexity
Pema Pera: we can still use labels, as long as we do it only for what they are useful for: this is salt, that is sugar -- don't want to put sugar in my soup :)
Geo Netizen nods
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Pema Pera: (did anyone ever try?)
Pema Pera: (it taste faaar worse than you might think!)
Neela Blaisdale: I suppose the trick is in when we use the labels versus when they control us..
Pema Pera nods

individual thoughts and differences in our labels and beliefs

Mickorod Renard: but our thoughts are quite individual,,and perhaps secret..so it's not so simple to label them
Pema Pera: btw, exactly one week ago, we had an inspiring discussion about dialogues between Christian and Buddhist monks, and about how small the differences are when we start to really compare: [2009/03/07 7:30] Geo Netizen: Little is truly in opposition to core faith issues [2009/03/07 7:31] Geo Netizen: That was perhaps the most exciting part of the experience [2009/03/07 7:51] Geo Netizen: What has been fun is to set a goal of arriving at a true and concise disagreement …. [2009/03/07 7:51] Geo Netizen: and experiencing how difficult it really is when we are listening carefully
Geo Netizen: Labels can have such an overload of meanings that can greatly differ between people
Pema Pera: it might be an interesting exploration for us to do to, in how far we can really find any real differences between our views
Mickorod Renard: yikes
Pema Pera: ?
Geo Netizen: Yes ... I think this would be a perfect group to attempt that kind of exploration
Mickorod Renard: I dont know whether I can expose myself that much
Pema Pera: :-)
Geo Netizen: And I actually see it happening at times
Pema Pera: yes
Neela Blaisdale: always remains a personal choice, M ick..
Mickorod Renard: i think we would need more than an hour
Pema Pera: hahaha, sure
Geo Netizen: apparent disagreements dissolve during the discussion
Pema Pera: exactly!!!
Geo Netizen: but I have seen the opposite too
Pema Pera: I find that I understand my own position better, after a good discussion along those lines
Neela Blaisdale hopes that then this can move out into the greater world...
Geo Netizen: I think of the long discussion about one visitor
Mickorod Renard: nice idea
Pema Pera: yes, one reason to publish our discussions on the web, Neela
Lia Rikugun: hello caledonia
Neela Blaisdale nods
Geo Netizen: It was very emotional at times :)
Pema Pera: Hi Cal!
Neela Blaisdale: Hello Cal
Geo Netizen: Hi Caledonia
Caledonia Heron: hi :)
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Cal
Pema Pera: Yes, Geo, but our usual discussions are of the "shrinking" type, re. differences
Pema Pera: no shirking the differences, they shrink :-)
Geo Netizen: Yes ... the example I mention was informative to me because of it being the exception

starting a new dialogue to define differences

Pema Pera: Geo, how about you and me trying to gently but carefully trying to define our differences in a dialogue, some day?
Geo Netizen: and my being able to compare the dynamics to what usually happens
Pema Pera: yes
Mickorod Renard: many labels,,as in individual/group beliefs carry myth too
Geo Netizen nods to Pema
Pema Pera: shall we pick a day and time, Geo?
Geo Netizen scrounges around for his calendar
Mickorod Renard: I think the myth often contributes to the barriers
Mickorod Renard: not the cctual
Mickorod Renard: actual
Pema Pera: yes
Geo Netizen: The word 'myth' is a little slippery
Mickorod Renard: true,,I am a bit liberal with choice of words
Geo Netizen: A myth can be a story that explains something fundamental and is used as such in some cultures
Mickorod Renard: what I meant were conceptions that others have
Geo Netizen nods
Mickorod Renard: I always try and be open minded,,but in the end we are what we eat,,in terms of information fed and consumed
Geo Netizen: I'd say it provides a limitation but is not definitive
Pema Pera wondering whether Geo has scrounged up his calendar :)
Pema Pera persistently pestering . . . . :-)
Caledonia Heron: it's under your robes Geo :)
Geo Netizen: Yes he has :)
Pema Pera: hehe
Mickorod Renard: would be nice to sit in on such a get together,,hope it fits my timetable

Buddhist-Benedict monk exchange

Geo Netizen: Pema …. returning to the idea of a discussion … what work well for the Buddhist-Benedict monk exchange was that they pick a specific topic, such as ‘Karma’ or ‘Original Sin’
Neela Blaisdale: me too...
Pema Pera: good idea, Geo
Pema Pera: in fact I was thinking about that
Geo Netizen: They one group would begin by tying to explain their term to the other
Pema Pera: [2009/03/07 7:33] Geo Netizen: Karma, for example, has many more common traits to the concept of the result of sin then there are differences
Pema Pera: yes
Geo Netizen: they other group would begin asking questions
Geo Netizen: and it would take off from there
Geo Netizen: usually with much agreement
Pema Pera: fine, I'm game, Geo!
Caledonia Heron pictures buddhist debate team
Pema Pera: shall we start with Sin and Karma?
Geo Netizen chuckles
Neela Blaisdale: team!!!
Geo Netizen: I suppose that is as good a please to start
Caledonia Heron: :)
Pema Pera: Cal: http://www.showchina.org/en/Gallery/...2388589379.jpg
Geo Netizen wonders if he need to recruit a cheerleading team
Mickorod Renard: lol,,whats that Pema?
Pema Pera: Buddhist debate, Mick
Pema Pera: Cal was asking for it :)
Geo Netizen chuckles a the picture
Mickorod Renard: great
Mickorod Renard: ty
Mickorod Renard: ahh yes,,seen that before..wow,,will it get that heated
Caledonia Heron: looks like a poetry slam
Neela Blaisdale: Gimme a P.....gimme an A gimme a B...
Pema Pera: the guy with the yellow head ornament does resemble Geo, don't you think?
Neela Blaisdale: hehe
Caledonia Heron: nice hat :)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Pema Pera: so day and time, Geo?
Geo Netizen: Not heated .... just very enthusiastic :)
Pema Pera: !!
Neela Blaisdale: except our group would have women:)
Mickorod Renard: yea
Caledonia Heron: yeah, kind of a boys club :)
Pema Pera: good to have a bit of heat coming out of a discussion if you live in the Himalayas
Geo Netizen chuckles
Geo Netizen: Pema are you thinking of using a regular meeting or ...
Pema Pera: regular meeting, yes
Mickorod Renard: spent some time in kathmandu
Pema Pera: we have 28 a week
Caledonia Heron: use mine
Pema Pera: we can spare a few for special attractions
Pema Pera: like SIN
Neela Blaisdale hopes it's on a weekend...
Pema Pera: like KARMA
Pema Pera: (sex and violence!)
Pema Pera: we can take this slot, shall we?
Pema Pera: If Lia agrees
Mickorod Renard: good idea
Lia Rikugun: of course i agree :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe Ara can get to it too
Neela Blaisdale is happy it will be at a time she can attend..
Pema Pera: so you talk about sin and I about karma?
Pema Pera: (even though I'm not a Buddhist, I can stand in for one :-)
Mickorod Renard: maybe I will pick up some hints
Mickorod Renard: need some sin
Pema Pera: Shall we start one week from now, Geo, 2009/3/21, 7 am SLT?
Geo Netizen: Sounds like we are talking
Geo Netizen: ...
Pema Pera: is that a yes (ever so persistenly asking :)
Neela Blaisdale: can you do this in 2 weeks..will be on a plane
Geo Netizen: yes ... that would work for me
Neela Blaisdale: or is that too long?
Pema Pera: there will be a transcript, Neela
Neela Blaisdale: OK
Pema Pera: there will always be days that someone can come
Pema Pera: sorry though
Pema Pera: okay, I'll announce it
Neela Blaisdale: will it be in the logs as usual?
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: like all other sessions
Geo Netizen: Two week work not work for me ... sorry Neela :(
Neela Blaisdale: np..
Geo Netizen: *would
Neela Blaisdale will send her cheers through the air...
Mickorod Renard: will we have a good mix?
Pema Pera: yeah!
Pema Pera: our air fairy :)
Mickorod Renard: he he he
Mickorod Renard: I guess You could post on notecard a statement of thoughts Neela?
Mickorod Renard: is that pos?
Neela Blaisdale: will think on it...
Pema Pera: oh, Geo and Neela and all, I presume that this will be a many-session ongoing dialogue
Geo Netizen: I have another meeting at 8 ....
Pema Pera: no way that we can get this all on the table in one hour!
Neela Blaisdale: :)
Pema Pera: Like the theme meetings we have with Maxine, and Stim, and Fefonz
Pema Pera: I hope that's okay, Geo?
Geo Netizen: I will keep the whole morning open next seek :)
Pema Pera: so we can take our time
Geo Netizen: *week
Pema Pera: no, I think it is better not to go for much more than an hour
Pema Pera: better to spend a concentrated hour
Geo Netizen: and maybe do some finger exercises hoping I can type better
Pema Pera: and then continue the next week, don't you think?
Caledonia Heron: yes
Pema Pera: oh, we can take our time :-)
Mickorod Renard: sounds great
Mickorod Renard: we will all be excommunicated
Pema Pera: or excapitalized
Geo Netizen was thinking that same thought
Mickorod Renard: that suits me

goodbyes

Geo Netizen: I've gatta run
Pema Pera: see you, Geo!
Neela Blaisdale: Bye Geo
Geo Netizen: Hope everyone has a great weekend
Mickorod Renard: c u goe
Lia Rikugun: bye geo
Mickorod Renard: geo
Neela Blaisdale: you too
Caledonia Heron: bye :)
Pema Pera: u 2 Geo!
Lia Rikugun: thank you you too
Neela Blaisdale: Bye everyone- will be away... have a good week:)
Lia Rikugun: byebye neela you too
Caledonia Heron: bye neighbor :)
Pema Pera: bye Neela!
Mickorod Renard: bye Neela,,u have a good week to
Lia Rikugun: I need to go too
Lia Rikugun: so you take care all
Mickorod Renard: bye Lia,,
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Pema Pera: bye Lia!
Mickorod Renard: I need to shoot off too
Pema Pera: bye Mick!
Mickorod Renard: bye
Pema Pera: how punctual we all are
Pema Pera: on the clock
Pema Pera: save thou and me, Cal
Mickorod Renard: grin
Caledonia Heron: :)
Caledonia Heron: kind of out of the discussion loop but interesting
Pema Pera: Last week Geo and I had a very interesting dialogue, spontaneously, about his reports of friends of his, Christian monks of his talking with Buddhist monks
Caledonia Heron: ah, ok
Pema Pera: not "of his"
Pema Pera: (strike second occurrance)
Caledonia Heron: his is a monk?
Pema Pera: no, but closely sympathetic
Pema Pera: and in touch with many of them
Caledonia Heron: wow - very interesting
Caledonia Heron: I will try to attend your dialog ... maybe I will learn something
Pema Pera: we will all learn a lot, I bet!
Caledonia Heron: are there any woman monks?
Caledonia Heron: women*
Pema Pera: yes, nuns
Caledonia Heron: monkettes?
Pema Pera: hehe
Caledonia Heron: ah, !! of course
Pema Pera: monkinas
Caledonia Heron: duh
Pema Pera: given that's only the two of us, shall we move to an even more leisurely place?
Caledonia Heron: sure
Pema Pera: where a squirrel roams around?
Caledonia Heron: maybe a squizzle or two
Pema Pera: that too yes :)