2009.03.07 13:00 - Mind, the final frontier

Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. The guardian was Aurora Kitaj.

  

  

Aurora Kitaj: Did I send you a url for the group Qt?

Aurora Kitaj: Explaining what Play as Being is about?

Aurora Kitaj: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell

Qt Core: for the site and a lm

Aurora Kitaj: THe session starts in just a few minutes

Arisia Vita: love the uniform qt

Arisia Vita: I'm a big ST fan

Qt Core: :-)

Qt Core: reading the site (and checking the uniform permissions )

Aurora Kitaj: looks intently at the uniform and guesses that it is from one of the more modern incarnations of ST

Aurora Kitaj: lol

Arisia Vita: I have one... :)

Aurora Kitaj: you can come as you are here

Arisia Vita: shall we make this a ST themed meeting?

Qt Core: i have several, but most have little design probelems

Aurora Kitaj: could do, but we might get a contingent from the 'we don't like st group'

Aurora Kitaj: and then we'd be in for trouble

Aurora Kitaj: lo

Arisia Vita: then I'll change back :)

Qt Core: there are many episodes about mind/meditation/identity

Aurora Kitaj: happy to make it hte topic, if you wish,

Aurora Kitaj: love ST, but no expert

Arisia Vita: I was just playing with qt

Arisia Vita: :)

Qt Core: she is even higher grade than me ;-)

Qt Core: i don't wear grades to avoid problems in trek sim

Aurora Kitaj: sorry, please translate... 'grades'?

Aurora Kitaj: so there is a sim, just for start trek?

Qt Core: rank, sorry i made a bad translation

Aurora Kitaj: Can you descibe the sim to me?

Qt Core: tens if not hundreds i think

Arisia Vita: welcome Zen

Zen Arado: Hi Aorora

Arisia Vita: welcome Exti

Aurora Kitaj: Hello Zen, nice to see you:)

Extropia DaSilva: Hello.

Zen Arado: everyone

Aurora Kitaj: Hi Extropia

Qt Core: they try to clone a starship or the starfleet headquarters, usuallu

Extropia DaSilva: I trod on you Ari. Sorry about that.

Aurora Kitaj: nice to see you again:)

Qt Core: hi extropia, zen

Arisia Vita: I rather enjoyed it

Arisia Vita: :)

Arisia Vita: welcome Mick

Mickorod Renard: evening

Aurora Kitaj: Well, we've had a suggestion for a Star Trek focussed discussion :)

Extropia DaSilva: Hello:)

Aurora Kitaj: albeit a lighthearted one

Extropia DaSilva: Ok. Is space really the final frontier, or will it be the mind that is the last thing to yield its mysteries?

Mickorod Renard: just been watching an episode of star trek enterprise

Qt Core: mind with space as its playground

Aurora Kitaj: Perfect...

Zen Arado: you think we will ever really visit other galaxies?

Arisia Vita: welcome Maggie

Extropia DaSilva: Oh, sure.

Mickorod Renard: hiya maggie

Aurora Kitaj: Hello Maggie, please come and take a seat:)

Maggie Rae: Hello - :)

Zen Arado: Hi Maggie

Qt Core: we may need maybe several , many thousands years to get the science and tech but yes

Extropia DaSilva: Once cryogenics is coupled with nanomedicine and we can revive those that have been frozen, we could send brave souls on such journeys.

Mickorod Renard: my partner thinks I live in another universe already

Zen Arado: if we survive that long !

Aurora Kitaj: Hello Michorod, nice to see you

Mickorod Renard: hiya aurora

Qt Core: for others solar sistem that would be enough, for other galaxies i don't think

Zen Arado: we don't know what technology is round the corner

Extropia DaSilva: As for ourselves, well we are information. Once we are running as AI, we could just transmit our software via radio telescope. Of course, there would need to be a receiver at the other end, plus a robot to download into.

Arisia Vita: welcome Lyday

Zen Arado: have to look beyond todays limits

Lyday Latte: hi

Mickorod Renard: yes,,it only takes one invention or discovery

Aurora Kitaj: Hi Lyday, delighted that you've managed to come along

Qt Core: extropia, have you ever read "Accelerando"

Arisia Vita: welcome Scat

Aurora Kitaj: please take a seat

Maggie Rae: I do not believe that Human intelligence will leave our Solar System - our makeup is to watery - too massive and our DNA too fragile

Extropia DaSilva: Yes, many times.

Aurora Kitaj: we seem to be talking about time and space travel

Lyday Latte: where do i go

Aurora Kitaj: with a star trek twist

Zen Arado: but owuld it be the same ;I' at the other end ?

Qt Core: but even that it will be onli light speed

Zen Arado: that is a philosophical question

Extropia DaSilva: We are not human, though. Our patterns are currently run on human brains, but we residents of Sl are software constructs.

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)

Mickorod Renard: I have wondered whether it will be down to our minds to do the extra dimensional travel,,rather than our boddies

Aurora Kitaj: Hi Scath:)

Scathach Rhiadra: Hrllo Adams:)

Aurora Kitaj: Hello Abigail:)

Mickorod Renard: hi scath

Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)

Lyday Latte: im confuse alredy

Extropia DaSilva: So we should be thinking in terms of space travel for software life forms, not meatbags.

Mickorod Renard: hi adams

Zen Arado: waht if we could deconstruct and then reconstruct our human bodies somewhere else?

Zen Arado: Hi Scath

Qt Core: then we will solve the soul existence question ;-)

Zen Arado: it doesn't exist :)

Extropia DaSilva: It is a misreading of what soul means to put it like that.

Scathach Rhiadra: Hey Tarmel:)

Adams Rubble: Hello Tarmel :)

Aurora Kitaj: Hi Tarmel:)

Zen Arado: I dont think so anyway :)

Lyday Latte: im new can someone explain what we do here

Zen Arado: Hi Tarmel

Maggie Rae: Hello :)

Aurora Kitaj: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell

Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone

Mickorod Renard: hi tarmel

Arisia Vita: hi Tarmel

Aurora Kitaj: This is what we do in a nutshell Lyday

Lyday Latte: i read but dont understand

Zen Arado: we discuss things ?

Zen Arado: my impression

Lyday Latte: its not a story/

Zen Arado: from our experience

Lyday Latte: rather its a discusion of philosophy?

Qt Core: firdt time here but.... we share our discoberies ?

Qt Core: first

Zen Arado: not strictly

Zen Arado: anything really?

Extropia DaSilva: Just so you know, in the original Jewish meaning of the word, 'soul' is something you can participate in, like 'community'. It is not a mystical, non-material thing that you either have or do not. We think of it that way because of a misunderstanding that stems from ancient Greece, when they used the term 'psyche' in place of soul.

Zen Arado: yes

Adams Rubble: We explore to find our connection to reality

Aurora Kitaj: Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. It's a thought experiment to see what is left if we put down what we have. Can we make conjectures, hypotheses about what Being could be, and play with those in our day-to-day life? What happens when we do? The best way to find out is to just give it a try. You can also consult the FAQ page. Or read snippets from some of our daily discussion excerpts , and glimpse some examples of how the practice has changed our real life.

Pema Pera: Hi everybody!

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema

Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)

Mickorod Renard: hi Pema

Zen Arado: Hi Pema

Tarmel Udimo: hi pema

Maggie Rae: Hello Pema

Pema Pera: wow, what a crowd!

Zen Arado: yes 'soul' is a hard to define concept then ?

Mickorod Renard: has anyone mentioned about it all being recorded?

Tarmel Udimo: nice to have you here

Lyday Latte: what are the rules

Qt Core: something like the indiam brhaman ?

Extropia DaSilva: So if people ask 'can a robot have a soul' the answer is 'no', because humans do not have a 'soul' either. The right question to ask is, 'can X participate in 'soul' '.

Zen Arado: or what is a soul

Zen Arado: ?

Aurora Kitaj: Hello Pema

Extropia DaSilva: Well, it is more like community. It is not a thing that you have. It is something you can partake in.

Qt Core: collective consciousness ?

Zen Arado: but there is a commonly held definition or concept

Pema Pera: Perhaps I'm repeating information, but just to make sure: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?

Pema Pera: you = those who are new here?

Extropia DaSilva: I do not mean it is literally like a community. I just mean that, just like a community is not a 'thing' a person can possess, but rather is something you can participate in, same thing applies to 'soul'.

Zen Arado: can't see the connection with community ?

Qt Core: no problem in recording for me

Zen Arado: it is usually thought of as pertaing to an individual ?

Extropia DaSilva: nor I

Pema Pera: what an interesting notion, Extropia!

Zen Arado: yes

Mickorod Renard: yes,,sounds a bit like being?

Extropia DaSilva: Yes. But only according to the mistranslation that stems from the ancient greek word 'psyche'. In Judaism, where it originated, it means something else.

Pema Pera: more like a realm, or channel of sharing/communicating, or field, or so ?

Zen Arado: but this is not commonly accepted

Lyday Latte: this concept no different than any abstraction; i can "particpate" in mathematics, philosophy...

Zen Arado: you are redefining?

Zen Arado: to most people it is something e all possess that leaves the body at death

Zen Arado: an immaterial substance

Zen Arado: whether or not there has been an error in translation or something

Zen Arado: agree?

Extropia DaSilva: Yes. But that is not the true meaning of the word. However, you are right that everybody accepts that definition, even though it is not correct if you go by the original meaning.

Zen Arado: but what is 'true' here?

Zen Arado: what everyone accepts is true?

Zen Arado: or truer?

Extropia DaSilva: It is true that I am probably wrong. Other than that, I would not like to say with any certainty.

Mickorod Renard: or individually accept

Qt Core: no zen

Arisia Vita: welcome Zobi

Zen Arado: words only mean what we want them to mean

Extropia DaSilva: Hello Zobi.

Qt Core: at most it has more probability to be true, but no guarantee

Zen Arado: as someone said in Alice in wonderland :)

Lyday Latte: Extropia -- do you mean that "soul" is a "process"

Zen Arado: Hi Zobi

Mickorod Renard: hi zobi

Zobeid Zuma: hi

Lyday Latte: cuz that makes sense to me

Pema Pera: Ho Zobeid! We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?

Zen Arado: to me it is a commonly held but very illogical concept

Lyday Latte: What is Zen

Mickorod Renard: maybe u mean the developement of ones individual soul?

Zen Arado: it isnt thought of as a process

Extropia DaSilva: Well, I could not give you a precise meaning. I am only going on what I just learned from an interview with Ann Foerst, who runs the Theology and AI department at MIT.

Zen Arado: haha I dont know

Qt Core: it seems to me you see it as a communication channel

Lyday Latte: im new here and get kind of confused with chat: if you answer me woudl be helpful to put my name in response

Pema Pera: But the notion of a soul as a little ghost living inside us is certainly too naive, so opening up the concepts for something more innately sharable seems like an interesting move

Mickorod Renard: maybe thats us,,the meeting of souls

Pema Pera: yes, good idea, Lyday, we have a big crowd today!

Zen Arado: agree Pema

Extropia DaSilva: I see it like this. If any nonhuman species sits in a group like this, and is accepted as part of the group, it has soul.

Zen Arado: so many believe in it though

Zen Arado: gives the possibility of life after death I think

Pema Pera: gotta have soul, and blues, and . . . .

Lyday Latte: So you do seem to be redefining what soul is Extropia

Zen Arado: yes a different meaning for the word

Lyday Latte: Traditional view vs soul as community collective or process (which is my addition)

Extropia DaSilva: No. I am going by the original meaning.

Lyday Latte: ok extropia. Can you tell me again whats the original meaning

Lyday Latte: to clairfy

Extropia DaSilva: Life after death. Well, 'permanent person presence' is responsible for that.

Zen Arado: but that meaning is out of date Extropia?

Lyday Latte: how can a culturla meaning become out of date zen

Lyday Latte: it just changes thru time, yes?

Zen Arado: because language is a process

Zen Arado: always changing

Extropia DaSilva: Soul is like 'courage'...Um, think in terms of something you can aspire to, rather than something you just have or do not have.

Zen Arado: no ?

Zen Arado: cultures change too

Extropia DaSilva: Evolution.

Zen Arado: yes

Zen Arado: of language

Lyday Latte: Langue does not go out of date; it is a process yes. It changes but has no agenda -- there is no "progress' in linguistic change thru time or in cultural change thru time. ONly adaptation to environmental and social context

Extropia DaSilva: Affects everything.

Mickorod Renard: well,,until someone defines soul scientifically it will always be a grey area

Pema Pera: interesting comparison, Lyday!

Zen Arado: but if it adapts the old model is 'out of date' Lyday?

Pema Pera scratching his grey brain cells symbolically :)

Lyday Latte: no

Lyday Latte: not out of date

Zen Arado: we continually must use new metaphors

Lyday Latte: just not appropriate to social or environmental contxt

Zen Arado: ok just a different way of putting it

Lyday Latte: or... hmm this is complicatedcuz of cutlral evolution and power structures

Zen Arado: to me anyway :)

Extropia DaSilva: When someone you know is not within sight or hearing, your mind tells you they have not vanished. They are 'somewhere' doing 'something'. But when a person dies, that sense still persists even though they have now ceased to exist. It is for that reason that we entertain 'life after death' notions.

Zen Arado: ah...but is it just wishful thinking?

Extropia DaSilva: Religion just helped to emphasise it.

Zen Arado: we hate to think there is nothingness after death

Mickorod Renard: having an amputation still leaves the sense of presence of the lost limb

Lyday Latte: actually i dont mind it

Extropia DaSilva: And, it is not true that 'death happens to us all'. It is true that 'death happens to everyone ELSE'.

Lyday Latte: i have no problem with no life after d3ath

Lyday Latte: dont get the fuss

Zen Arado: zen tells us there is no birth or death

Zen Arado: they are just constructions we put on a process

Extropia DaSilva: I can see that. Just rearrangements of patterns of matter and energy.

Zen Arado: it is hard to escape our conditioning though :)

Tarmel Udimo: and the experience of: Just rearrangements of patterns of matter and energy is what we try to explore here

Extropia DaSilva: Is that what 'your mind is like the cup, it can hold no more knowledge' tries to teach us?

Zobeid Zuma: Is there anything wrong with organizing the world around us into such "constructions"? It seems like a good way of dealing with things.

Zen Arado: good point Zo

Aurora Kitaj: OH, Hello Zobeid:)

Maggie Rae: I believe all life is caused by retrograde flows in entropy.

Zen Arado: they ease the pain of living ?

Lyday Latte: i think organizing world in meaningufl way is good as long as it not affect others or the earth in determintal way

Zen Arado: I find cryogenics a bit distasteful

Lyday Latte: maggie i not understand what is retrograde mean and what is entropy please

Zobeid Zuma: The universe is a heat engine. You could have life (or anything else interesting) without increasing entropy.

Extropia DaSilva: But, maybe the reason why we fear death, is the prospect of hell? The Atheistic notion of death is that it will never happen. Not to ME (me, being anybody's subjective pov).

Zen Arado: yes that too Ex

Adams Rubble slips away quietly

Zobeid Zuma: I mean, *couldn't* have life.

Extropia DaSilva: Not always Zobeid. Not once the DeSitter horizon emerges.

Lyday Latte: I bet lots of ppl thru time have feared death Extropia; and many did not have concept of hell. Do you seek universla reason why we fear death? or culture specific one.

Pema Pera: It's great to see so many new faces here -- have you all heard about the way we investigate the topics that we are talking about now, in a direct experimental fashion, in our "9-seconds" explorations?

Zobeid Zuma: DeSitter horizon??

Zen Arado: Desitter ?

Qt Core: just read on your site

Zobeid Zuma: I also saw it mentioned on the website.

Pema Pera as an astrophysicist, is very tempted to talk about De Sitter horizons, but . . . first things first, 9-sec :-)

Pema Pera: yes,

Pema Pera: the basic idea is this:

Extropia DaSilva: Dark energy increases until it pushes matter along at the speed of light. At this point, the DeSitter horizon arises, in which anti-particles and particles may form, one either side of it...

Pema Pera: for a few hours each day, we spend 9 seconds every 15 minutes to stop and drop what we have to see what we are

Extropia DaSilva: Oh, looks like Pema is going to explain for me.

Pema Pera: very simple instructions

Pema Pera: do it ten times a day

Pema Pera: one and a half minutes

Pema Pera: the same time it takes to brush your teeth

Pema Pera: but . . . .

Pema Pera: . . . . anything you do ten times a day will get under your skin

Pema Pera: into your dreams

Pema Pera: into your attitude toward life

Pema Pera: and life's challenges, problems

Pema Pera: anybody any comments or questions about this basic idea?

Pema Pera: 9 sec in 15 minutes is like a 1% time tax, like a kind of joke :)

Zen Arado: you have to write something about it too ?

Pema Pera: would be better, yes

Pema Pera: don't have to

Pema Pera: but like trying to remember dreams, good idea to write brief notes

Zen Arado: ok

Pema Pera: bridge between two states of awareness

Pema Pera: like a state transition

Mickorod Renard: I am very much for it Pema,,and making some progress,,but need to take a crow bar to my working day to prise the seconds out

Extropia DaSilva: Well, anyway, the upshot is that, thanks to the DeSitter horizon, the universe will eventually reach a unifiorm temperature of 10^-29 k. Information processing requires a temperature difference, and that means any lifeforms will fry to death in 10^-29 years time.

Mickorod Renard: thats cool

Extropia DaSilva: ..unless we find an escape route, such as wormholes to a parallel universe.

Extropia DaSilva: ..Or theoretical physics is just wrong and there horizon never forms.

Qt Core: i'm reading KMaku right now :-)

Qt Core: Kaku

Extropia DaSilva: Which book? Parrallel Worlds?

Mickorod Renard: I am finding exploring the objects in our everyday life facinating at the moment

Zen Arado: how long do you think hunanity will last ?

Zobeid Zuma: If we're lucky or unlucky?

Extropia DaSilva: Another century.

Qt Core: Hyperspaces

Extropia DaSilva: Good book, that. I often refer to it.

Pema Pera: yes, Mick, that is the most challenging thing to do

Pema Pera: What have you found so far?

Qt Core: sadly it is a terrible translation

Zen Arado: so we wont be around to worry about it :)

Mickorod Renard: yes,,controlling the imagination

Extropia DaSilva: We might be.

Tarmel Udimo: controlling the mind perhapss

Mickorod Renard: always been a dificiult task for me

Zen Arado: but not control?

Extropia DaSilva: Our lifespans are limited by a different set of conditions to a humans, remember.

Zen Arado: just noticing

Zobeid Zuma: If we're lucky humanity will become obsolete within the coming 100 years or so. If we're unlucky civilization will collapse and we'll straggle along for a few hundred thousand years in a bronze-age type setting before dying out.

Mickorod Renard: and to think that one has to free it

Extropia DaSilva: Right, Zobeid.

Zen Arado: the signs aren't good

Aurora Kitaj: Zobeid... the first option sounds more worrying to me !

Zen Arado: but who knows?

Extropia DaSilva: That 99% of all species on Earth went extinct, tells us something about the human species most probable long-term future.

Zobeid Zuma: Not to me. The second option is what scares me -- a lot.

Zen Arado: yes

Mickorod Renard: maybe if we had been able to keep our focus on the world that we had/have ,,we may have wanted to protect the earth a lil more

Aurora Kitaj: rethinks options :)

Extropia DaSilva: But we are not human. We are the products of human/technological imagination. So, the thing that makes humans obsolete could be the sentient software that we might become tomorrow.

Mickorod Renard: maybe we sould try and spend more time enjoying what we have

Pema Pera: yes

Zen Arado: we might evolve into some new consciousness

Aurora Kitaj: revisits all those notions of the brave new world where it was predicted that we would have so much spare time

Extropia DaSilva: 'Now' is the only thing we know we have, I guess. So yes we should make the mist of it.

Mickorod Renard: I fear we have evolved into a subconciousness

Zobeid Zuma: Never underestimate the power of long-range planning, Extie.

Zen Arado: I think humans are mainly pragmatic

Pema Pera: may we have a break in the conversation for just a minute?

Extropia DaSilva: Aurora. If we were content to live in 1950s conditions, your work life would be half the year off. But we demand luxuries beyond the imagination of 1950s families. That is why we still work so hard.

Zen Arado: little long range planning actually takes place

Pema Pera: it's wonderful to see so much energy and so many topics

Pema Pera: but it is also nice to focus a bit on what we are normally doing here

Pema Pera: perhaps some of the oldtimers can tell us something about their experience with the 9-sec explorations?

Pema Pera: Tarmel, or Scathach or . . ?

Tarmel Udimo: well it was interesting to listen to the topics flashing by

Tarmel Udimo: I guess for me what's important about these Pab Sessions is a place to actually not talk about what we know or what we think we know

Tarmel Udimo: but to actually engage with what we have experienced

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Mickorod Renard: yes please

Extropia DaSilva: How can we do that, if we cannot talk about what we know or think we know? How can I experience something and not have knowledge of it?

Tarmel Udimo: during doing the 9-secs explorations we have all discovered deep truths which we then come here to talk about

Zen Arado: I had an experience today

Lyday Latte: so we do 9 sec thing elsewhere then tak about here?

Aurora Kitaj: please tell

Tarmel Udimo: well we're all happy to here what you would like to talk about extropia but it might be worth while heraing what others have to say too

Extropia DaSilva: Nods

Mickorod Renard: what was yours zen?

Zen Arado: I found out my local zen center has taken out another lease

Zen Arado: that excludes me from attending it because I am disabled

Pema Pera: yes, Lyday, exactly

Zen Arado: the center is at the top of a flight of stairs

Extropia DaSilva: Can this problem be corrected in any way?

Zen Arado: no

Aurora Kitaj: what about the DDA Zen

Zen Arado: so I had to work with the resentment

Lyday Latte: ADA not cover this?

Zen Arado: I tried all that before

Mickorod Renard: maybe its a test of your resolve?

Zen Arado: it is actually illegal

Aurora Kitaj: yes

Zen Arado: but the lack of compassion bugs me

Zen Arado: we are alright

Aurora Kitaj: breach of DDA

Zen Arado: too bad for you

Lyday Latte: what is DDA

Aurora Kitaj: Disability Discrimination Act

Aurora Kitaj: (In UK)

Lyday Latte: wheres that

Zen Arado: disability discrimination act

Lyday Latte: ZEn are you in UIK

Zen Arado: yes

Lyday Latte: ok

Lyday Latte: sue them.

Aurora Kitaj: yep

Tarmel Udimo: so as a buddhist how will you work with that Zen?

Zen Arado: anyay I am resolving to concentrate on my mindfulness group

Lyday Latte: not only is it a breach of DDA, would that be a breach of all that is sacred to zen buddhism lol

Zen Arado: yes you would think so

Extropia DaSilva: The lack of thought bugs me. So often, it is not the disability that is the problem, but the social attitudes. Steps are instrinscally biased against wheelchair users. Our streets do not accomodate a full spectrum of humanity:(

Lyday Latte: did you point this out...

Zen Arado: many times I have raised the issue

Zen Arado: but it is a matter of finance.......

Lyday Latte: Society disables individuals; disability is not locatd at individiual leve.

Aurora Kitaj: stunned silence

Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Lyday.

Tarmel Udimo: so Zen what are you going to do?

Mickorod Renard: usually in the uk there are grants from gov to sort that out zen

Zen Arado: like I said

Zen Arado: forget about zen

Tarmel Udimo: well that's one way to go

Extropia DaSilva: We shall face the question repeatedly in the future. Should we fix the individual? Or societal attitudes towards the individual?

Zen Arado: and concentrate on my mindfulness meditation group

Lyday Latte: society first i say

Zen Arado: there is a lot of tokenism towards disability

Mickorod Renard: yes,,I sometimes think these obstacles come for a reason

Scathach Rhiadra: and will it be a big loss to Zen, not going to the Zen centre?

Zen Arado: well I have never been in it

Zen Arado: after 5 years of membership

Mickorod Renard: It will mean you will find the right course instead

Zen Arado: so....I have to work with my own attitudes

Tarmel Udimo: bye

Lyday Latte: i disagree; i think that is way to excuse society by saying it was "not the right course for zen"

Zen Arado: if I can't change things

Aurora Kitaj: Bye Zobeid!

Lyday Latte: "if society disables you, then it wasn ot meant to be for your life"

Zen Arado: Bye Zo

Pema Pera: I'm sorry to hear all that, Zen!

Pema Pera: but may we come back to Tarmel and Scathach, who were going to say something about their experience with the 9-sec explorations?

Mickorod Renard: zen may choose to take it further,,and get a facility for wheelchairs

Pema Pera: Scathach, do you want to add something to what Tarmel said?

Zen Arado: tried all that

Zen Arado: change to something else

Scathach Rhiadra: I find the 9 second practice very helpful in keeping me focused on the moment throught athe day

Tarmel Udimo: yes okay:-)

Extropia DaSilva: ..Just suppose Zen's condition could be fixed. Would it be better to fix Zen, or to change society, such that there are no barriers between himself and a full enjoyment of life?

Tarmel Udimo: we start with us first

Aurora Kitaj: yes

Extropia DaSilva: Suppose fixing socety will take decades. But fixing Zen will take hours.

Scathach Rhiadra: don't get so scattered doing the practice, and then the regularity of the fifteen minutes comes around so quick, the focusing lasts longer. so to speak

Qt Core: don't know if i can compare it to the 9sec meditation, but as a programmer i sometimes feel the need to stop and take a couple beep breath to "realign" myself

Pema Pera: yes, Qt!

Mickorod Renard: are you using a timer at all..for the 15 mins?

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Pema Pera: in fact, some programmer advice does something very similar

Pema Pera: some do, some don't Mick

Mickorod Renard: every 20 mins is the recomended in the uk

Pema Pera: either way, whatever you prefer

Qt Core: it is easier since i did some yoga some years ago (sadly i had to stop, loved it)

Pema Pera: ah, how interesting!

Tarmel Udimo: thats great Qt

Scathach Rhiadra: I found it helped in the begining, to get into the habit

Tarmel Udimo: in fact sounds like you're practising PaB

Tarmel Udimo: during those monets of breathing to realign try dropping as well

Tarmel Udimo: moments

Pema Pera: http://www.mindfulnessdc.org/mindfulclock.html is a computer gong that you can use for the 9 sec

Qt Core: i have always so many thought threads (or better shells) i have to reorganize them

Mickorod Renard: lol,,I must copy that,,thanks pema

Tarmel Udimo: yes okay aftre organising them try stopping and dropping just for a few seconds

Pema Pera: garbage collection, Qt :-) ?

Qt Core: ;-)

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Tarmel Udimo: :-)

Pema Pera: or memory reallocation, to be more PC

Qt Core: mostly zombie processes

Lyday Latte: what means "dropping"

Aurora Kitaj: Thanks everyone for the layers of free flowing discussion tonight:)

Qt Core: stopping them ?

Pema Pera: ah, EXACTLY, we kill our zombie processes every 15 minutes, what a nice way to discribe it, Qt!

Extropia DaSilva: I am sorry to say I have to leave now. Thanks for letting me join in:) Bye, everyone.

Lyday Latte: by extropia

Lyday Latte: tc

Qt Core: bye extropia

Tarmel Udimo: pema will explain dropping and stopping

Pema Pera: by Extropia!

Aurora Kitaj: Extropia, thanks for coming along and for your contibution

Tarmel Udimo: bye extropia

Mickorod Renard: bye ex

Aurora Kitaj: please come again soon:)

Pema Pera: yes, I'll have to leave too -- but feel free to stay here -- we don't have a limit on the time

Pema Pera: though many of us stay here for an hour or so

Pema Pera: the longest session on record lasted six hours and ran into the next session :-)

Mickorod Renard: yikes

Pema Pera: (we get together four times a day)

Zen Arado: bye Extropia

Pema Pera: at 1 and 7, am and pm

Zen Arado: ty for link Pema

Mickorod Renard: I must post that notecard on the wiki Pema

Zen Arado: have it bookmarked

Qt Core: i think only 1pm would work for me

Mickorod Renard: same here,,time diference

Pema Pera: Aurora, did you find out how to claim the chat log?

Aurora Kitaj: No, but I will edit....from normal chat... very few non PaB related comeings and goings tonigh:)

Pema Pera: oh but there is a much easier way

Pema Pera: right click at the base of the fountain

Mickorod Renard: I can tell you all that since joining p b I have become so relaxed in rl

Pema Pera: below where it says "recording"

Pema Pera: and choose "claim" from the pie diagram

Pema Pera: can you try that?

Scathach Rhiadra: yes Aurora, claiming the log is much easier, no need to edit

Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Mick!

Aurora Kitaj: yes

Mickorod Renard: and,,I seem to have more time now

Mickorod Renard: less rush,,more time

Aurora Kitaj: fraid that isn't an option coming up for me:(

Zen Arado: you are noticing your mind chatter maybe

Zen Arado: and dropping it

Mickorod Renard: yes,,that was a prob 4 me

Pema Pera: it's a bit tricky Aurora, you have to aim right

Pema Pera: took me a while too, the first time :)

Pema Pera: try hit the grey triangle at the base of the fountain

Pema Pera: yes, Zen, indeed

Mickorod Renard: I think by our nature of being here,,and in these groups we are proberbly very big thinkers

Pema Pera: yeah!

Zen Arado: yes think too much

Maggie Rae: Everyone, thanks for an interesting discussion - I have to go - next time I'll try for more contribution :)

Pema Pera: you did it Aurora!

Aurora Kitaj: Wow!

Aurora Kitaj: I did it!

Mickorod Renard: bye maggie

Scathach Rhiadra: great Aurora, it will be so much easier now

Pema Pera: now you'll get an IM after you leave or log out, with the URL where you can find the whole log

Aurora Kitaj: thanks for coming Maggie,

Zen Arado: my zen teacher wrote on my rakusu 'only don't know'

Pema Pera: all you have to do is fill in the title,

Pema Pera: and if you have time, add comments

Mickorod Renard: if i do a guardian..what is the process for an evening slot?>

Zen Arado: bye Maggie

Pema Pera: btw, Tarmel and Schathach here can help you if you have any questions about how to post the log on the wiki

Aurora Kitaj: thanks Pema and everyone for spoon feeding me:)

Aurora Kitaj: giggles

Scathach Rhiadra: yes no problem Aurora:)

Pema Pera: For now, mick, the process is telling me, and I'll help with the musical chairs :)

Pema Pera: it would be great if you could take a weekly slot

Pema Pera: do you mean 1 pm SLT?

Mickorod Renard: ok ty..just need to pluck up the courage

Mickorod Renard: yes

Pema Pera: you'll be fine, Mick! And the first few times we can make sure that there will be another guardian

Pema Pera: often we have several anyway

Mickorod Renard: ok,,ty

Mickorod Renard: I will look at the list again

Aurora Kitaj: Hello Udge,

Pema Pera: let me see for a moment -- Hi Udge!

Udge Watanabe: hello everyone, sorry I'm late

Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Udge:)

Zen Arado: Hi Udge

Aurora Kitaj: I'ms sorry, we're just winding up the grop now:(

Udge Watanabe: :)

Tarmel Udimo: hi udge

Mickorod Renard: I am attending a rl budhist evening on friday nights

Aurora Kitaj: We start at 1pm slt. I think you came a week or so ago?

Pema Pera: Mick, would Tuesday, 1 pm SLT work for you?

Aurora Kitaj: You are welome to join us though

Mickorod Renard: yes,,that sounds good

Pema Pera: wonderful, Fefonz will be delighted -- you'll take one of his two slots

Mickorod Renard: ok great

Mickorod Renard: I think,,he he

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Pema Pera: I'll ask Fefonz to be there the first couple times, to help you out Mick :)

Mickorod Renard: ok great

Udge Watanabe: bye pema, take care

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema

Mickorod Renard: bye Pema

Pema Pera: Great seeing you all again, y'all come back soon!

Mickorod Renard: sure will

Zen Arado: bye Pema

Tarmel Udimo: bye pema

Tarmel Udimo: so Qt will you be trying out the 9-secs/

Arisia Vita: I need to run too, good seeing you all...

Lyday Latte: me to

Tarmel Udimo: bye

Lyday Latte: ty for invite me aurora :)

Mickorod Renard: bye arisia

Udge Watanabe: bye ari, take care, and bye lyday

Lyday Latte: this very cool

Aurora Kitaj: Thanks so much for coming Lyday

Mickorod Renard: bye lyday

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ari

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lyday

Arisia Vita: bye all...

Zen Arado: bye Lyday

Zen Arado: Ari

Aurora Kitaj: Thanks for coming also Ari:)

Lyday Latte: xD

Qt Core: don't know, maybe i'll come here again but at the moment ii'll stick to my "a couple of breath when my mind ask for it" schedule

Mickorod Renard: I am struggling doin the 9 second stuff because my day goes so fast

Udge Watanabe nods. That's pretty well how I do it too, Qt

Mickorod Renard: but I am using the drive back and forth to work as a slot

Qt Core: ohh, that too, done somenice discoveries while on column

Tarmel Udimo: coming here to Pab is like getting a top-up

Mickorod Renard: I found that just shutting down some of my lateral thinkings went a long way to finding calm

Zen Arado: I am not sure what ind of thing we should be discussing

Zen Arado: I have seen a very varied selection

Zen Arado: so far

Zen Arado: our experiences?

Zen Arado: no one seems to do that

Tarmel Udimo: yes we do end up talking about many subjects, excpet we always bring it back to focus and our experiences

Mickorod Renard: usually during the hour session we are discussing ways of play as being

Zen Arado: I haven't heard many experiences being recounted so far

Zen Arado: just general intellectual discussion?

Zen Arado: my experience :)

Qt Core: maybe everytime there is someone new all the "theoredical" discussion is redone ?

Mickorod Renard: I have to go now

Mickorod Renard: sorry

Zen Arado: ok bye Mick

Qt Core: bye mick

Mickorod Renard: see you soon

Udge Watanabe: bye mick, take care

Aurora Kitaj: Bye Mick

Mickorod Renard: bye

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Mick

Aurora Kitaj: thanks for join us

Scathach Rhiadra: well sometimes Zen the discussion can be dominated by 'general intellectual discussion', can be hard to bring it back on topic:)

Zen Arado: sure just wondering

Zen Arado: it is safer than personal disclosure too :)

Zen Arado: and you can ride your 'hobby horse' topic

Scathach Rhiadra nods

Zen Arado: well I guess I'll have to go too

Udge Watanabe: bye zen, take care

Scathach Rhiadra: good night Zen:)

Zen Arado: bye all thanks for discussion

Qt Core: ty, zen

Aurora Kitaj: bye Zen, thanks for coming along and for your contibutiosn

Tarmel Udimo: bye

Aurora Kitaj: contributions

Zen Arado: np :)

Udge Watanabe: it seems I got here just in time :)

Scathach Rhiadra: :)

Qt Core: ... to say goodbye to everyone ;-)

Udge Watanabe: that too.

Tarmel Udimo: are you leaving us udge?

Udge Watanabe: not yet :)

Tarmel Udimo: okay

Udge Watanabe: or maybe yes.

Udge Watanabe: Bye all, take care. enjoy the weekend.

Udge Watanabe: Qt, it was nice almost meeting you.

Aurora Kitaj: thank for coming along Udge

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Udge, you enjoy yours too:)

Qt Core: same here

Aurora Kitaj: please join us again soon

Udge Watanabe: and aerlier ...

Udge Watanabe: will do

Udge Watanabe: :)

Aurora Kitaj: by Qt, delighted that you were able to make PaB

Tarmel Udimo: bye

Aurora Kitaj: Are you off too Tarmel

Qt Core: ty for inviting me

Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel

Aurora Kitaj: thanks for coming

Qt Core: may come here some more

Scathach Rhiadra: I must be off too, see you again soon:)

Aurora Kitaj: Schath

Qt Core: bye scaTH

Aurora Kitaj: thank for coming along:)

Aurora Kitaj: Qt, it would be great if you could come along to some more sessions :)

Aurora Kitaj: Really appreciate you perspective on things:)

Aurora Kitaj: Got to go now

Qt Core: sometimes i don't even think i have one ;-)

Aurora Kitaj: well, if you do....then you're one up on me:)

Aurora Kitaj: mine changes every minute

Qt Core: changing idea isn't alwayus wrong, new data, new decisions

Qt Core: well. i think i'll go visiting the place

Aurora Kitaj: bye for now:)

Qt Core: bye, have fun

Aurora Kitaj: waves