2009.03.03 01:00 - How to communicate in SL (and elsewhere)

The Guardian for this meeting was Wester Kiranov. The comments are hers.

I came in to find Adelene, Susi and Gaya already there, and we were joined for a short while by a newcomer.

Adelene Dawner: Hiya, Wester.
Wester Kiranov: nice wings
Adelene Dawner: thanks ^.^
Susi Alcott: hi Wes and Ade
Wester Kiranov: hi susi
Adelene Dawner: Hello, Susi.
Adelene Dawner: Hi, Gaya. Hello, Claudio, have you been here before?
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello :)
claudio Rau: no la premiere fois
claudio Rau: la prima volta
Susi Alcott: hi claudia, la prima and Gaya
Adelene Dawner: I'm sorry, Claudio, I don't think any of us speak Italian - do you speak English?
claudio Rau: i dont speak very well
Wester Kiranov: i can actually understand a bit of italian, but not speak it
Gaya Ethaniel: You can get a translator here claudio.
Gaya Ethaniel: I just gave you a notecard.
claudio Rau: sorry i must go
claudio Rau: rl
Gaya Ethaniel: Goodbye.
claudio Rau: ciaoooooo
Susi Alcott: bye

I admitted I did not know how to give the notecard  yet and we talked about that a bit.

Wester Kiranov: i still do not know how to give anyone anything *blush*
Gaya Ethaniel: He declined the notecard...
Adelene Dawner: You know how to rez stuff, Wester?

Squee: There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.
Wester Kiranov: ummmm not really, i think
Adelene Dawner: It's just like that, except you drag it onto a person's av instead of onto the ground.
Wester Kiranov: I just come here to talk with you guys
Gaya Ethaniel: Guess you'd at least need to know how to give out notecards Wester for PlayasBeing newbies.
Wester Kiranov: so, can I just drag something from my inventory to a person?
Adelene Dawner: Yeah, pretty much ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel: If you click any of our names in the local chat, Wester.
Gaya Ethaniel: It brings up a profile, you drag an item into the box at the bottom of the profile.
Adelene Dawner: Or you can drag it to the av or the av's floating nametag.
Gaya Ethaniel: It says 'Drop inventory item here.'
Wester Kiranov: I get it ... finally!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
Gaya Ethaniel: oh... onto the name tag as well? That's handy.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_
Adelene Dawner: Yep ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
Adelene Dawner: Oh! Gaya, I updated Squee's quote list; want a copy?
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes please :)
Adelene Dawner: Nearing 400 quotes, whew.
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks! The never-ending wisdom of squee is always appreciated.

Squee: ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
Susi Alcott: _/!\_

Adelene wondered why Susi had to leave suddenly...

Adelene Dawner hmms.
Gaya Ethaniel: ?
Adelene Dawner: Y'all are rubbing off on me, with the social stuff. That seemed rather abrupt of Susi, and I'm wondering why.
Gaya Ethaniel shrugs.
Gaya Ethaniel: Could be anything but he did say bye.
Gaya Ethaniel: I just didn't have enough time to wish him a good day...
Adelene Dawner nods, shrugs.

... and then we went back to SL stuff.

Adelene Dawner: Did you want a copy of the quote file, Wester?
Wester Kiranov: sometimes rl gets in the way...
Wester Kiranov: what is the quote file?
Adelene Dawner: It's the notecard that Squee (the mouse on my head) reads from.
Wester Kiranov: that would be nice
Adelene Dawner: 380-some quotes on various topics.
Gaya Ethaniel: Adele, I have a bird with trans ok.
Adelene Dawner: mm?
Gaya Ethaniel: Do you want to put script and quote in it for Wester?
Adelene Dawner: Sure!
Gaya Ethaniel tries out dragging onto the nametag. It works!
Wester Kiranov: thank you!
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Pleasure.
Adelene Dawner: hmmm... you'll have to check the settings on that. I got it, but it's now no mod/no copy/no trans.
Gaya Ethaniel looks into her inventory...
Adelene Dawner: cuuuute, tho. ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
Adelene Dawner: It may be mod/copy/trans for you, but change permissions when you give it to me - that can be changed in the edit toolbox or in the box that comes up when you right-click it in your inventory and select 'properties'.
Gaya Ethaniel: I don't have a copy anymore... I keep forgetting to check properties before giving things away >.<

Adelene Dawner: :(

Fefonz joined us

Adelene Dawner: Hiya Fefonz ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel: Hello Fefonz :)
Wester Kiranov: hi fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hello gaya, adelene, wester :)
Squee: In all chaos there is a cosmos, in all disorder a secret order.

and we talked about communication, and how to deal with "subtext", unspoken assumptions. Is it possible to communicate without it? How do you deal with personal differences?

Gaya Ethaniel: So you are becoming more 'social' now then Adele?
Adelene Dawner: Um... yes, but that's not really what I meant.
Gaya Ethaniel: You mean then you notice things more?
Adelene Dawner ums and tries to put it into words.
Fefonz Quan: those typing paws are just adorable (couldn't help myself) :)
Adelene Dawner: A lot of 'normal' social interaction involves assuming that the other person is reacting to unspoken things... I've generally tended not to do that, which is good in a way - assumptions are dangerous - but, since almost everybody makes those kinds of assumptions, people also assume that you will, and use that as another mode of communication sometimes, I think?
Gaya Ethaniel reads and thinks...
Adelene Dawner: Like, subtext.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... yes I understand that statement and agree.
Fefonz Quan: i didn't think subtext is so common
Fefonz Quan: i guess it is also cultural oriented
Gaya Ethaniel: So did you make an assumption when Susi left?
Gaya Ethaniel: Or thought about making one?
Adelene Dawner: ...kinda, Gaya?
Adelene Dawner: I've been having some issues with him, the last week or two. That's why I didn't offer the notecard in general - which he may have noticed.
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... I see now what you mean by 'social things rubbing off'
Adelene Dawner nods.
Fefonz Quan: subtext tends to make communication more complex
Adelene Dawner nods at Fefonz.
Fefonz Quan: i prefer earnestness (if this is the right word)
Wester Kiranov: but i'm not sure it's possible to communicate without subtext
Fefonz Quan nods
Adelene Dawner: Mmmmm... takes a lot of practice, anyway, Wester.
Fefonz Quan: i think it is possible to reduce it a lot wester
Wester Kiranov: i think the problems come mainly because it is more difficult to get feedback than on "normal" communicaton
Gaya Ethaniel: One can be earnest yet still unintentionally produce subtexts... I think...
Wester Kiranov: I think if you both have a good idea what subtext the other person has, you can even play with it
Fefonz Quan: yes, and without feedback the whole communicating gets astray
Fefonz Quan: sure, it can be playful, but just after a solid shared ground was established
Adelene Dawner: Part of the thing with subtext is that even if you're intentionally communicating without it, whoever you're communicating to may still try to 'read in'... and, if you're looking for subtext, you'll find *something* to make assumptions about, almost guaranteed.
Gaya Ethaniel grins.
Gaya Ethaniel: And I have additonal problems of communicating in English too.
Fefonz Quan: and then it is a never ending loop...
Gaya Ethaniel nods...
Wester Kiranov: maybe you should wear a sign "i am communicating without subtext"
Gaya Ethaniel laughs!
Fefonz Quan: so i say - cut through it by say what you meant to say
Adelene Dawner: I usually do. But.
Gaya Ethaniel writes that on a Postit... and sticks on Adele's back.
Wester Kiranov: :D
Adelene Dawner sticks her toungue out at Gaya.
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Fefonz Quan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Adelene Dawner: In this case what I mean to say is 'If you try to hug my av again, I'm going to rip your arm off'... but I think communicating that 'gently' might work a bit better.
Gaya Ethaniel giggles.
Fefonz Quan brings again the cultural side, and gender too?
Adelene Dawner: Entirely possible.
Fefonz Quan: roaring can do the job, adele :0
Fefonz Quan: :)
Adelene Dawner chuckles.
Wester Kiranov: culture, gender: they all generate many different subtexts, but also stereotypes which help us guess
Gaya Ethaniel: I just try not to get frustrated when working out communication issues...
Gaya Ethaniel shrugs... not too much.
Wester Kiranov: Has anybody here read Deborah Tannen? I always find she is very helpful in understanding these things
Gaya Ethaniel looks up...
Gaya Ethaniel: You Just Don't Understand - Women and Men in Conversation
Gaya Ethaniel: This one?
Wester Kiranov: that one
Wester Kiranov: it's not just women and men, it's also different talking cultures
Fefonz Quan: yes, but women and men are good example
Wester Kiranov: or how much silence you need before you can say something without interrupting, that kind of thing
Fefonz Quan: minus 2 sec where i come from wester :0
Wester Kiranov: women and men are a very popular subject as well with the "general public"
Fefonz Quan: :)
Wester Kiranov: yes, where you come from

And of course the all-important question: what does my choice of avatar communicate? Adelene showed us some examples, ranging from playful to impressive to totally uncommunicative.

Adelene Dawner: I haven't read much (any, really) of that kind of thing - my usual modes of communicating the things that are important enough to me to bother communicating them have worked well enough. I'm not sure how my usual non-human av failed to signal 'not romantically available' in this case... o.O
Squee: What have I always believed?
Gaya Ethaniel: Why minus 2 sec?
Fefonz Quan: because sometimes people answer before you finished your sentence :)
Gaya Ethaniel smiles. Your AV is cute enough already Adele.
Wester Kiranov: so you think a non-human av signals "not available" - without subtext?
Gaya Ethaniel: ah... that's unfortunate Fefonz.
Adelene Dawner: Yeah - this isn't my usual av, tho. My *quaduped* lion is intentionally not cute. Friendly, yeah - not cute. And in the original incident Susi had to ask if I had a humanoid av.
Fefonz Quan: yeah, but sometimes i prefer that on too polite too subtextual communication
Gaya Ethaniel: ah ok
Gaya Ethaniel: Guess some relate better with humanoid AVs... personal preferences I guess *shrug*
Fefonz Quan: yes, much more intimidating adelene
Gaya Ethaniel: But that lion is certainly more approachable than the bird.
Wester Kiranov: definitely uncute :P
Adelene Dawner: The bird was also designed to signal 'social outsider'.
Fefonz Quan: the bird?
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Shape is sharper and tone more vivid on bird than the lion so...
Gaya Ethaniel: You certainly give out certain messages with your AVs right Adele?
Fefonz Quan: waiting for the bird to rezz...
Gaya Ethaniel: I mean it's all intentional...
Adelene Dawner: Yeah - avs actually do a very good job of signaling the same type of information that body landuage does.
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Fefonz Quan: wow it is beautiful, in a scary way i think
Gaya Ethaniel smiles.
Wester Kiranov: but you will have to intentionally use a certain av, while much of body language is unintentional or subconscious
Gaya Ethaniel: When I first met Adele, she was this bird. I was a bit unsure yet fascinated. :)
Fefonz Quan: i would think the lion is less approachable though
Gaya Ethaniel: Yes... AVs we can control but much of body languages we can't...
Wester Kiranov: when I first saw her she was the lion
Adelene Dawner: I also use more intentional 'friendly' emotes and things, with the lion, Fefonz.
Fefonz Quan: now it's a bird-lion :)
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Adelene Dawner: The quad lion is intentionally powerful, and selectively approachable, by design. I play her friendly, but that's not intrinsic to the av.

I had to leave for a few minutes and Adelene showed some more avatars.

Wester Kiranov: i have to wake up hubby now - be back in 5-10 mins
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Adelene Dawner: ok, Wes.
Gaya Ethaniel: My favourite is this one of course Adele.
Adelene Dawner grins.
Fefonz Quan nods
Adelene Dawner: I like this one a lot, too.
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Adelene Dawner: The grown-up version of this one feels odd, now, tho.
Fefonz Quan: though more powerful
Wester Kiranov: just one more thing - in case any of you want any of this conversation out of the chat log, tell me please
Gaya Ethaniel: ok
Fefonz Quan: sure
Adelene Dawner is fine with it staying in.
Adelene Dawner: And actually, Fefonz - this av feels more powerful to me than the adult humanoid lioness. I know it doesn't signal that way, but that's how it feels to me. (Less powerful than the quad one, tho.)
Gaya Ethaniel hasn't seen the grown-up version...
Fefonz Quan get confused between all versions...
Fefonz Quan: is this adult humanoid now?
Adelene Dawner: Yep.
Adelene Dawner: I'd *love* to have a quad cub...
Gaya Ethaniel: She looks... contemplative while the younger one looked filled with mischief.
Adelene Dawner nods at Gaya - yes, a bit.
Fefonz Quan: yes, i see what you mean
Adelene Dawner: Less sure of herself.
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Gaya Ethaniel: That'd be cute Adele, a quad cub :)
Fefonz Quan: avs are of the best example of how fast we are to judge people by appearances
Adelene Dawner: Grendel's has supposedly been working on cubs. I hope they really are. ^.^
Adelene Dawner nods at Fefonz... and yet... avs are so completely voluntary...
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Fefonz Quan: and impermanent :)
Gaya Ethaniel nods.
Fefonz Quan: that looks the most unsocial so far :)
Adelene Dawner: Yep.
Gaya Ethaniel: Because I know it's Adele, it just makes me grin.
Fefonz Quan: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Feels like she will stay silent though :P
Fefonz Quan: how does it look typing ?
Adelene Dawner: You can't tell. ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel: That's perfect for when not feeling like talking.
Fefonz Quan: yep
Gaya Ethaniel: :)
Gaya Ethaniel: Thanks Adele for the show :) Need to head back to RL.
Gaya Ethaniel: Enjoy your day/night all.
Fefonz Quan: bye Gaya :)
Adelene Dawner: cya, Gaya ^.^
Gaya Ethaniel waves.
Fefonz Quan: good seeing you
Fefonz Quan: i will go to rl too, it is night time here
Adelene Dawner: ok, Fe. 'night
Fefonz Quan: nice talking adelene, thanks for the avs show :)
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Fefonz Quan: _/!\_

And she even was kind enough to do it again when I came back.

Wester Kiranov: back!
Adelene Dawner noticed ^.^
Wester Kiranov: took a bit longer than i thought
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm
Wester Kiranov: i see i missed the av show
Adelene Dawner: aw. ^.^ I c'n run 'em again, if you want. ^.^
Wester Kiranov: i'm quite curious actually
Wester Kiranov: show me please
Adelene Dawner: ok... don't remember the order... here's the adult humanoid lion, tho.
Wester Kiranov: i have seen that today - the cute lion :)
Adelene Dawner: Nope, this is the adult version.
Adelene Dawner: Here's the cute one. ^.^
Wester Kiranov: i think the adult one is differently cute ;)
Adelene Dawner shrugs. ^.^
Wester Kiranov: but i admit this one is more cuddly, more teddy bear
Adelene Dawner: mmhmm ^.^
Adelene Dawner: The diferences in the face seemed subtle when I did the mod... but changing back and forth, no, they're really not.
Adelene Dawner: Here's my old birdwoman av - my first regular av on this account, and the one I used when I started coming to PaB.
Wester Kiranov: the "outsider" bird. I do like the colors
Adelene Dawner: Mmhmm ^.^
Adelene Dawner: This was an interesting one for poseballs, with the wings.
Adelene Dawner: I didn't show this one, but here's my full-human av. I wear this *very* rarely.
Wester Kiranov: thank you for showing it to me then
Adelene Dawner: ^.^
Adelene Dawner: This is that 'most unsocial one yet'.
Wester Kiranov: it does look sort of unsocial, yes ;)
Adelene Dawner: It makes a good work av. Pretty clearly communicates 'please don't disturb me'.
Wester Kiranov: but the lightplay is beautiful
Adelene Dawner: 'Specially with a 'busy' tag added.
Adelene Dawner nods ^.^
Adelene Dawner: There's one more especially meaningful one that I didn't show...
Adelene Dawner: Another one that I don't wear often.
Wester Kiranov: wow
Adelene Dawner: The wolf is powerful symbolism for me. It's important to me to have this... but it's not wise for me to wear it too often.
Wester Kiranov: does the jewel signify anything in particular?
Adelene Dawner: That necklace was kind of a gift - the image on the pendant was, anyway.
Wester Kiranov: ok
Adelene Dawner: And I guess it's personally meaningful beyond that.
Adelene Dawner: Not strongly so.

Squee: If God has created the world, his primary worry was not to make its understanding easy for us.
Adelene Dawner chuckles at Squee.
Wester Kiranov: is Sqee still here hiding, or does she communicate from somewhere else?
Adelene Dawner: He's still here - atop my head. ^.^
Wester Kiranov: I see him now

Squee: Safest place, for a little morsel like me. She can't reach me, and who's going to mess with a lion?
Wester Kiranov: somebody tried ;)
Adelene Dawner giggles.

And then it was time to say goodbye.

Adelene Dawner: Well, I'd better get back to work. See you around, Wester. ^.^
Wester Kiranov: see you round ade
Wester Kiranov: have to go myself as well
Wester Kiranov: bye
Adelene Dawner: You already saw me round. But you'll also see me again. ^.^ *chuckle*
Wester Kiranov: it was very nice talking to you, and the av show
Adelene Dawner: No problem ^.^