2009.03.09 07:00 - Dissolving v. Answering the Question

 The Guardian for this session was Genesis Zhangsun...however her alarm did not go off so Pema Pera was actually present.

Adams Rubble: Hi Pema :)
Pema Pera: Hi Adams!
Pema Pera: How's life, and how are your latest reflections?
Adams Rubble: I had a chat with *** this morning
Adams Rubble: ** hadn;t realized that I was still sailing :)
Pema Pera quietly opening his browser
Pema Pera: . . . boys and girls as trolley cars . . .
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera: As for
Pema Pera: 5. F. Whoa. I look again and there is the word “presents”…”all that presents itself”. Did Pema mean this as part of APAPB?
Pema Pera: yes, very much so!
Adams Rubble: :)
Pema Pera: 6. ZRM. Mysterious line in notecard “When we ’solve’ a koan, it is not that we now have the answer, rather the whole framework in which we pose the question has been dissolved” [Barry Magid].
Pema Pera: YES !!!
Pema Pera: No change in the world. No possibility. Crimey, we humans are warming up the world and killing off species.
Pema Pera: (still quoting from Adams' blog)
Pema Pera: to say that change is fictional, a kind of illusion, does not mean that "no change" is real -- that would be even more an illusion, an illusion within an illusion
Adams Rubble: Hello Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hello Adams, Pema :)
Pema Pera: within our story, the narrative of our life, there is indeed change -- denying it or shirking responsibility would be very bad indeed
Pema Pera: hi Eliza!
Pema Pera: so yes, APAPB to the rescue :-)
Pema Pera now reading the *** story -- sorry Eliza, am catching up with Adams' blog on http://rubblebornthoughts.wordpress.com/
Eliza Madrigal: Please continue, by all means. I've done a little reading of the logs this week...so many interesting threads
Adams Rubble: Yes, it's been an exciting week :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'm in a synthesizing mode...taking things in...listening listening
Adams Rubble: I wrote quite a bit this morning. I have Pema busy :)
Adams Rubble: I know the feeling Eliza :)
Pema Pera is happy to see how Adams and **** are on much better terms now, it seems -- I sensed a lot of mutual respect, reading the dialogue!
Pema Pera: (Eliza, in that dialogue on the web site I pointed to, *** is Adams' typist :-)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah....am beginning to read now
Pema Pera: Unfortunately, I have to run now -- I had scheduled another meeting, since Genesis had asked me to swap slots with me -- but perhaps she forgot or perhaps I misunderstood. Anyway, I'll claim the log and I look forward to catching up further soon. Apologies!
Adams Rubble: Good to see you Pema. thanks for reading :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Pema
Adams Rubble: bye
Pema Pera: Bye Eliza and Adams!
Eliza Madrigal: Adams, your processing is very unique...
Adams Rubble: Yes, I make verything very complicated I am afraid
Eliza Madrigal: sometimes I think I understand what you are getting at for yourself and then it takes a turn
Eliza Madrigal: No...honest. I think sometimes it is difficult to be persistent
Adams Rubble: Our identities do that
Adams Rubble: that is our different identities confuse people
Eliza Madrigal: yes...it is something not so easy to translate
Eliza Madrigal: But so worthwhile to try to get to
Adams Rubble: I have learned to separate mine
Adams Rubble: which helps me understand them but also makes things very complicated at times
Eliza Madrigal: You are naturally compartmentalizing type of person....or learning to be deliberate now?
Adams Rubble: hehe. both!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: Maybe that is why I get so confused :)
Adams Rubble: I am not used to so many ideas to play with at once
Eliza Madrigal: The other night I was thinking about chaos/harmony....and how we/I try to *impose* structure often...and that's what keeps me meditating...remembering not to...to allow it, or to just embrace chaos
Eliza Madrigal: But when you add this sort of element...
Adams Rubble: Or to be able to take it lighly and drop it when we need to
Eliza Madrigal: Yes!
Adams Rubble: to be able to accept it because you know you can drop it
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...ease.
Eliza Madrigal: Did you begin this structuring as a way to embrace contradictions?
Adams Rubble: I stumbled into it :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: I am writing about myself in the Chronicles which describes the stumbling process
Adams Rubble: We all fumble around our own ways I guess
Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to have make a big cup of tea and sit to read :)
Eliza Madrigal: I've been working at puzzles...
Adams Rubble: I create quite a bit of balle to read through :)
Adams Rubble: yes?
Eliza Madrigal: hoping that doing them will symbolically work at the less tangible ones
Adams Rubble: balle=babble
Eliza Madrigal: I look forward to it.....if you edit that out, things are missed...jumps probably
Adams Rubble: nice analogy there
Adams Rubble: the puzzles that is
Eliza Madrigal: I love that puzzles can feel impossible
Adams Rubble: yes
Eliza Madrigal: and then....one little key opens up a million cascading effects
Eliza Madrigal: Makes me hopeful...energetic
Adams Rubble: YES!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: What a great analogy :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes...works for me certainly...because in life we can't sto p
Eliza Madrigal: and figure out one thing at a time
Adams Rubble nods
Eliza Madrigal: everything bombards at once...dizzying
Adams Rubble: yes
Eliza Madrigal: we have to work over here....and over there at the same time -Loll
Adams Rubble: Unless we take it moment by moment
Eliza Madrigal: Which is certainly what I hope to allow...
Adams Rubble: yes, me too
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I notice that you talk a bit about how changing clothes and things affects your thinking....
Eliza Madrigal: Is that the primary way to compartmentalize here?
Eliza Madrigal: to=you
Adams Rubble: Stim talks about each moment having either positive or negative energy
Eliza Madrigal: Hmm
Adams Rubble reading your question
Adams Rubble still thinking :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: I have compartmentalized various identities
Adams Rubble: In some ways they have been "voices"
Adams Rubble: always there
Eliza Madrigal: Oh! That is a great way of putting it....yes, voices
Adams Rubble: Somewhat inadvertantly I have manefested one of these "vpices" or identities into my avatar
Adams Rubble: So that is why I can talk with my typist
Adams Rubble: I don;t recommend that to everyone :)
Adams Rubble: but it has had some positive results for me :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ahhh...and a creative flow emerges.
Eliza Madrigal: If each moment has positive or negative energy...so does an outfit chosen in a positive or negative moment-lol
Adams Rubble: yes...an energy
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hmmm.....I love that.
Adams Rubble: Yes, the way we dress does affect the way people perceive us
Adams Rubble: In SL it is much more we can change
Adams Rubble: We can change our hair, color, shape...even gender
Eliza Madrigal: And what we find we did not know
Adams Rubble: But then also, in a group like this
Adams Rubble: we learn to llok past all that
Adams Rubble: Hello Visitor :)
Eliza Madrigal: yes. hi Visitor
Adams Rubble: Ah, your second day in Second Life
Eliza Madrigal: The beginning of an adventure!
Visitor: toodles peoples
Eliza Madrigal: I was going to help him learn the cushions...ah well
Adams Rubble: Anyway, I guess that is why I was slow to answer your question :)
Adams Rubble: You could appear here tomorrow as a gorilla and we would accept you in the same way we do now :)
Eliza Madrigal: Yes...what is nice is that looking beyond, yes but also embracing the sheer play of it...the joy for its own sake
Adams Rubble: Yes, the play :)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: Exploring new things togetehr :)
Eliza Madrigal: Hi again pema
Adams Rubble: Hi Pema :)
Pema Pera: hi again!
Pema Pera: did the two of you get complete clarity about appearance by now? :-)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: A bit :)
Adams Rubble: We learned a bit about appearance, yes :)
Pema Pera: (and Pema appearing and disappearing)
Adams Rubble: yes, that too. hehe
Eliza Madrigal: And we talked about puzzles...so seems to fit together quite well
Adams Rubble: yes, Eliza made an intersting analogy
Adams Rubble: with the key piece making everything come together
Pema Pera: what was the key piece in this case?
Eliza Madrigal: The puzzle I think will be ongoing
Adams Rubble: Well for me, it was seeing presence in the context of timelessness
Adams Rubble: yes Eliza :)
Eliza Madrigal: Timeless puzzle
Adams Rubble: for me the piece last week. hehe
Pema Pera sees a new PaB rubric on the wiki: piece of the week !
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Adams Rubble: :0
Adams Rubble: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I'd so like to attend the phenom. workshop on Fridays, Pema...just hasn't lined up. I've enjoyed reading though
Pema Pera: there will be many more, Eliza :)
Pema Pera: glad you like them!
Eliza Madrigal: Think the pauses as a conversation happens would make it easier to grasp...but I think I do somewhat
Pema Pera: Interesting to see similarlities and differences between PaB sessions and Kira workshops
Pema Pera: oh, we all are just getting started, Eliza, not to worry!
Eliza Madrigal: Of course....as Adams said a moment ago "essentials" :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) I have to embrace timelessness...realize Im not going to miss anything in the big picture :)
Pema Pera: yes, that's important
Pema Pera: you are not lacking anything -- the real you that you really are
Pema Pera: does that make any sense -- I mean, concretely?
Pema Pera: practically, not as an idea?
Eliza Madrigal: yes, it does. It is fun though....to.."keep up" though I know there is *really* not such thing
Eliza Madrigal: Korii, Hi
Adams Rubble: Hello Korii :)
Korii Tiger: Good morning.
Pema Pera: Hi Korii!
Korii Tiger: :)
Pema Pera: nice to see you here again, Korrii
Korii Tiger: nice to be here
Eliza Madrigal: I know that the things we add on are the things that fragment...it is an added thing...the feeling of chasing or measuring
Pema Pera: Eliza, can you say a bit more?
Pema Pera: ah, yes
Pema Pera: (sorry, we typed simultaneously)
Eliza Madrigal: :) Quite alright.
Pema Pera: The problem is that we tend to overlook our real core, what we really are, where our real strength is . . . . and yes, we keep on adding stuff, material stuff, mental stuff . . .
Adams Rubble is good at adding stuff :)
Adams Rubble: hehe
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Korii Tiger: yeah but has nay one considered there is aprupouse to why we do this?
Adams Rubble: For me, my identities like attention, Korri
Pema Pera: well, we have to stay alive, eat, earn a living and all that, but we generally overshoot . . .
Adams Rubble: yes pema
Eliza Madrigal: We sometimes mistake what we get used to for what we need
Adams Rubble: as pema says, what we have instead of what we are
Pema Pera: Korri, what do you see as the purpose?
Korii Tiger: experiance
Pema Pera: yes, we learn from all we do . . . mistakes and successes alike . . .
Korii Tiger: itshow we learn abou tourselvs.. it show each learn about each other.. its how we learn about th euniverse for which we exsist.. if we were brought into exsistence already content withinourtselvs.. our corse selvs.. were we go? what would we do? who woiudl we really be? and would life even neccesery?
Korii Tiger: core^
Eliza Madrigal: Sort of asking the question "does god keep learning?" If complete, where to go...
Adams Rubble: I am afraid I must run now. Bye everyone :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Adams, nice talk this morning :)
Pema Pera: bye Adams!
Korii Tiger: bye Adamns
Adams Rubble: Yes, thank you Eliza...and all :)
Eliza Madrigal: the whole Idea of dropping what we do/have. Being able to do that easily is a freedom...a bliss?
Adams Rubble: whoops
Pema Pera: I see what you mean, Korri, but I think there is a way in which to live in which we have our cake and eat it -- being perfectly content yet exploring new things all the time in fresh ways
Korii Tiger grins
Korii Tiger: i agree
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pema Pera: I think there is an alternative beyond the polarities of feeling needy and turning inward
Pema Pera: but not so easy to find that in practice
Eliza Madrigal: very conditioned
Pema Pera: we can speculate about it, but it is more interesting to actually try to experience that kind of alternative
Korii Tiger: i think its a wonderful thing for peopel to be conciously aware of themselvs.. and there many paerts or aspects... but the msitake i mostof ten see is when people realize these aspects of themselvs they may consider it a bad or negative thing and seek to undo, remove, or denie these aspectsof themvls in and effort to be "pure" which i also think for those indaviduals i supsoe is a necessery thing.. but it doesn't have to be that way... and again i'm speaking from an experiance here that i would have a veyr hard tiem putting into words.... what really happens.... when you take away all those things here that make us us..
Pema Pera: I fully agree Korii
Pema Pera: that is why we often talk here about "wearing our identities lightly"
Korii Tiger giggles
Pema Pera: not suppressing or denying or ignoring anything
Pema Pera: yet not sticking to them either
Pema Pera: ready to change clothes when appropriate
Pema Pera: or be naked, as the occasion may invite
Korii Tiger: my naked self doesn't liek to talk.. she scares people.
Eliza Madrigal: hah, Korii
Eliza Madrigal: It is fascinating that as you do experience...you begin to see how you think...how many arbitrary barriers you've become accustomed to
Korii Tiger: it is Eliza
Pema Pera: yes
Eliza Madrigal: How seriously we can take ourselves
Pema Pera: there are probably different kind of what would appear as nakes selves . . . for one, there is the ego, showing off itself without the usual coverings; for another there is what shines through when we succeed in (at least partially) dropping the ego . . . .
Pema Pera: quite different directions . . . .
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...yes
Pema Pera: and in Christianity the first option is associated with sin
Pema Pera: while the second is a far better direction
Pema Pera: openness and light
Eliza Madrigal: :::nodding::::
Eliza Madrigal: I'd always heard that the idea in mind ws that being clothed in light was the natural state
Eliza Madrigal: inner light of consciousness
Korii Tiger: thats the naked part of me i talk about Eliza
Pema Pera: when I look at my heart I can see total blackness -- when I focus on all that I have done wrong in my life, and still am doing, and it would not be good to deny that part . . . . yet I can also look at what is underneath, outside the narrative of our life, and there we can find something totally unsullied, like the light of a movie projected not tainted by the blood and gore it projects on the screen
Korii Tiger looks at Pema
Pema Pera hopes that Korii will let her naked self talk :-)
Pema Pera: as light
Korii Tiger smiles
Eliza Madrigal: That's the scary part Korii? For you, or you think to others?
Pema Pera: mistakes can also be worn lightly -- neither ignored nor wallowed in
Korii Tiger: the scarry part for me? is the rections of the people.. the people? ther reactions are deniel...
Korii Tiger: i try to be vary carful how i tred in this world as i have and will leave profound impacts on th elives i touch
Korii Tiger: i'm always concoiys about that,.
Korii Tiger: concious
Eliza Madrigal: Yes
Pema Pera: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: Pema, "outside the narrative of our life"...
Eliza Madrigal: That is a context....
Eliza Madrigal: ?
Pema Pera: what we have are identities and labels and concepts -- most of our life we are content just to juggle all those, move around those -- a web of labels pointing to other labels
Pema Pera: together they for a very dense web of narrative of who we are and what the world is and what is and is not possible and what we need and so on
Pema Pera: and yet .. . .
Pema Pera: it is possible to drop all of that
Pema Pera: and see what we are, beyond or beneath or whatever
Pema Pera: outside the narrative
Pema Pera: we all have glimpses all the time, but they don't fit into our memory schemes
Pema Pera: our data bases
Pema Pera: our plans our hopes our fears
Pema Pera: poking holes in that dense web once every 15 minutes is a good way to get some light and air in that stuffy tent of ours . . . .
Korii Tiger: just be carful when poking holes you don't destroy the integrety of the tent
Eliza Madrigal: And once we are able to drop it, what is beneath is then a way of then infusing being into actions and roles, etc. ?
Eliza Madrigal: Ack...not phrased correctly
Korii Tiger: and i think a tent is a perfect metaphore because it is there to shelter us.. to portect us.. as we are we ar enot ment to survive in the "wilderness"
Pema Pera: yes, Korri, poking is perhaps too vivid an image; I often say "stopping and dropping"
Korii Tiger: i think its perfect...
Pema Pera: but we may have to poke through our conditioning before we can allow ourselves to stop and drop
Eliza Madrigal: I mean..we bring that to the roles...not getting rid of the lables? :)
Pema Pera: yes, Eliza, infusing, or even more precisely, letting Being infuse
Eliza Madrigal: Or the roles to that...Ah, Okay, we're in same place :) Thanks
Pema Pera: ah, Korii, the tent *within* our narrative should not be destroyed, definitely, that is the tent of our integrity *within* the world of our narrative, I totally agree
Pema Pera: but the tent I talk about is not a personal tent around each of us
Pema Pera: it is the WHOLE narrative, seen as a tent
Korii Tiger nods.
Pema Pera: that tent incluse our understanding of all of space and time . . .
Pema Pera: a large tent . . .
Korii Tiger chuckles
Korii Tiger: ok
Pema Pera: but yes, I agree, just telling someone to "open up" can be quite dangerous . . .
Pema Pera: since the first reaction will be to open up within the story, which may well be the wrong thing to do
Pema Pera: and yes, Eliza
Pema Pera: oops, 8:30 already
Pema Pera: sorry, have to run
Eliza Madrigal: :) Bye Pema
Pema Pera: so nice talking with you both, thanks for coming here!
Pema Pera: see you soon again
Korii Tiger: bey pema
Eliza Madrigal: See you soon, bye
Korii Tiger: huh
Korii Tiger: i wonder who's going to stop the recording
Eliza Madrigal: huh? :)
Eliza Madrigal: It will stop when we leave I think....
Eliza Madrigal: and will be sent to the person who claimed it :)
Korii Tiger nods..
Eliza Madrigal: I like this conversation though...goes in a million directtions or none
Korii Tiger: i jsut lsiten..
Eliza Madrigal: I am reminding myself to drop needing to understand everything on a mental level
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Korii Tiger smiles
Eliza Madrigal: While still enjoying that I love to think think think...
Korii Tiger: well..
Eliza Madrigal: just don't enjoy thinking being the *point* so....PaB is excellent in that way
Korii Tiger nods..
Eliza Madrigal: You've been in SL for a long time!
Korii Tiger: these discussions are interesting to me .. i'e been on a path of self learning since i was 16.. a lot of the things every one here talks about i've already thought about or experianced .. i've found my deepests self.. it isposible.. but there was no room for her in this world.. there really sin't.. so now i'm trying to learn how to conciously manipulate all my many aspects..
Korii Tiger: SL is a perfect tool for that..
Korii Tiger: and i have been
Korii Tiger: i've learned a lot in SL..
Korii Tiger: especialy about myself..
Eliza Madrigal: That's fascinating, Korii. Manipulating the aspects in a playful way...
Korii Tiger: abuot people..
Korii Tiger: yes
Korii Tiger: as you can see
Korii Tiger: lol
Eliza Madrigal: In an accepting manner
Eliza Madrigal: :)))
Korii Tiger: if you know me for any great length of time you'l notice me enjoying the shapes of many ceeaturs and forms
Korii Tiger: yes
Korii Tiger: i've learned to accept ppeople
Korii Tiger: i'e learned to forgive
Korii Tiger: i'm learning not to judge...
Korii Tiger: soem aprts of me still have a hard tiem with that but i keep em in check
Eliza Madrigal: And appreciate.... Suppose it happens in layers. You think "So glad I let ___ go" but then a while passes and there it is in a different form
Korii Tiger: exactly..
Eliza Madrigal: Which is all perfectly fine...we have time :)
Korii Tiger: thats all i have..
Eliza Madrigal: I was surprised to see that I still have a version of stage fright in SL...was funny to me to see that
Eliza Madrigal: Realizing what a marvelous way to work it out...how easy
Korii Tiger: but i feel liek i hae a greator purpose here .. in my never ending quest to understand eveyrthing about myself.. from the shallowest aspect to the deepest core.. i've learned how to help and heal others on deeper emotional levels..
Eliza Madrigal: That's beautiful
Korii Tiger: oh yess. i have performence anxiety .
Korii Tiger: amogn many people
Korii Tiger: i'd never say such thing si'm sayign to you now.. in a crowed of people..
Eliza Madrigal: :) I can be like that also. Sometimes it is good to poke those holes though, especially in a crowd!
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Korii Tiger: yeah..
Korii Tiger: i do
Eliza Madrigal: You said some things I find very interesting
Korii Tiger: i've probably spoken more here at PaB than any wher els liek here i've gone to
Korii Tiger: where people like to gather and discuss these things
Eliza Madrigal: It is an accepting environment
Korii Tiger: i alkways feel liek i ahve othing to offer because .. well i feel more advanced to b honest.. but i don't feel liek any one woudl really be interested in hearing that or lsitening to my experiances... as every one has to find there path on there own way
Korii Tiger: jdut as i hd on my own..
Eliza Madrigal: I wondered if you find that your "naked" self is too intense
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, I see that may not be what you mean. Of course, I understand that. I think others' stories often open our own though...
Eliza Madrigal: in ways we wouldnt have seen....another angle
Korii Tiger: my naked side is intence...there is no question of it..
Eliza Madrigal: I find that in RL I'm quiet because I'm hyper aware of the limitations others impose on a setting or conversation sometimes. Is that similar?
Eliza Madrigal: Here it is more the opposite! :))
Korii Tiger: a lot of times i wish i coudl jsu tlet msyelf go.. and be msyelf to my fulest potential.. but i often fea others would find this overwealming.. and i emtnioned befor i do try very hard to be carful of the people around me...
Korii Tiger: yes Eliza
Korii Tiger: and i feel th esame in real life
Eliza Madrigal: Ah, yes. I think we understand each other a bit there.
Korii Tiger: about the hypersensativity to the bounderis and limitations that are imposed on thos esettings
Eliza Madrigal: It is kindness to have care for others' capacities
Korii Tiger: yes.. but that kindness can soem times feel like a prison.. and a state of lonleyness...
Korii Tiger: even among friends
Eliza Madrigal: Understand that also... There have to be times when you express because you'd like to...regardless of whether someone else may handle it perhaps...
Eliza Madrigal: but being mindful
Korii Tiger: well.. i try and woirk my expressions aroudn lessions.. if i do something that i know is going to be imposing on others i do so in amanor to which they have an oportuinity to learn from the experiance.
Korii Tiger: many times i get to walk away a little bit mor eknoledgable too..
Eliza Madrigal: Yes. Sometimes I just let chips fall, because I know they may understand later
Korii Tiger: well thats a whole other dicussion
Korii Tiger: i'm refurign to just.. letting it all out..
Korii Tiger: as far as letting the chips fall where they may in those istuations/circomstances thats always my first reaction..
Eliza Madrigal: Are you an artist? I find that sometimes people can handle more through that medium. Hmmm
Korii Tiger: i am.
Korii Tiger: but i don't draw or paint anymore..
Korii Tiger: my need for art growing up was so i could express myself.. now i have SL to do that
Eliza Madrigal: In SL and RL? You sound like it to me...because you seem to overflow:) Nice quality
Korii Tiger: i'mm letting go a little ;)
Eliza Madrigal: It has been a real pleasure to meet you. I've got to run. Ah, on same page
Korii Tiger: i'll even change forms.. to hwo i feel
Korii Tiger: oh all right
Eliza Madrigal: Well, I'll wait a sec?
Korii Tiger: its nice to met you too.
Korii Tiger: its nice to know some one els seems to understand too.
Eliza Madrigal: OH MY!!!
Eliza Madrigal: I think you may have come to meditation one night??? I was so startled! Fabulous
Eliza Madrigal: That has to be great fun to play in
Eliza Madrigal: Oh I'd love that
Eliza Madrigal: Hhaha, I bet
Eliza Madrigal: May I?
Eliza Madrigal: I was about to jump on.....or try to....
Eliza Madrigal: :) Another time
Eliza Madrigal: Thank you though.....is a great image to carry through my day
Eliza Madrigal: Are there sims which accomodate this av better?