2009.03.28 07:00 - Immanence and Emanence

The Guardian for this meeting was Lia Rikugun. The comments are by Lia Rikugun.

Mickorod Renard: Hiya lia
Lia Rikugun: hello hello mick
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pema
Lia Rikugun: hi pema
Pema Pera: Hi Lia and Mick!
Mickorod Renard: nasty looding in washington?
Mickorod Renard: flooding
Pema Pera: I wouldn't know, Mick, that is rather far away from here
Mickorod Renard: was watching it on tele
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Scath
Pema Pera: Hi Schathach!
Lia Rikugun: hm i didnt know
Lia Rikugun: hi scathach
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick, Lia, Pema

Will this be the continuation of the karma/sin theme without Geo?

Mickorod Renard: is Geo comming today?
Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila
Pema Pera: I think he said that he had other things to do today
Pila Mulligan: greetings freinds
Pema Pera: Hi there Pila!
Lia Rikugun: hello pila
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
Pila Mulligan: is this a continuation of the karma/sin theme?
Pema Pera: if you like, it will be
Pema Pera: but probably without Geo today
Pila Mulligan: oh, sorry Geo is not here
Pema Pera: he often comes at this slot, Saturday morning, but seems to have another engagement today
Pila Mulligan: oops, wrong click
Pila Mulligan: excuse me :)
Pema Pera wondered whether Pila was going to judge our sins :)
Lia Rikugun: :)
Mickorod Renard: ;-)
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Pila Mulligan: I seem to ascended :)
Pema Pera: but not for long :)
Pila Mulligan: St Peter was quick
Pema Pera: perhaps dropped his keys?
Pila Mulligan: it was that hidden trap door
Pila Mulligan: I've always thought getting to heaven was easy, it is staying there that is difficult
Pema Pera: :-)
Mickorod Renard: many thoughts come to mind there
Pila Mulligan: does one ascend t the key borad?

The definiton of Gad and how it is related to Being.

Mickorod Renard: I was trying to remember where we got to last week
Mickorod Renard: but I like thinking that Being could be seen as some would see God
Pila Mulligan: in theology when I was studying it in the 60's that would related to the terms, used then, of immanence and emmanence
Pema Pera: Hi Wol
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
Wol Euler: hello all
Pila Mulligan: hi wol
Lia Rikugun: hello wol
Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
Pema Pera: It depends, Mick, how you use the term God
Lia Rikugun: hehe
Pema Pera: hehe, a dangerous hammer!
Wol Euler: greetings from Alf Kelberry :-)
Pila Mulligan: greetings Alfred
Mickorod Renard: well,,that again comes down to how one has come to terms with their own idea of God

Pema suggests a 10% time tax for the PaB break before the anniversary instead of just 1%. For 15 minutes (9000 seconds) this means 90 seconds stopping instead of 9 seconds.

Pema Pera: before going deeper into that, Mick, just a note:
Mickorod Renard: nice outfit Wol
Wol Euler: ty :)
Pema Pera: how about stopping for 90 seconds after the bell
Mickorod Renard: ok
Pema Pera: you'll see the green lines on the screen, even if your sound is off
Pila Mulligan: 9 or 90?
Pema Pera: 90 this time, turbo-PaB :-)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Wol Euler: indeed, pila :)
Pema Pera: a new experiment

90seconds....

Pila Mulligan: ding
Pema Pera: hehehe
Wol Euler: that went by very quickly
Scathach Rhiadra: yes
Mickorod Renard: i thought that too
Pema Pera: Storm wrote the new script, and he will add an ending line soon as well, so that we dont' have to keep the time

We compare different ideas of God. God as Being was called immanence. God as distand watchmaker was called emanance. The Trinity may come closer to the notion of Being.

Pila Mulligan: Mick, the idea of God as Being was once called immanence, in Christian theology
Pema Pera: and sometimes 9 sec is very long . . . .
Mickorod Renard: ok,,
Pila Mulligan: the contraposite was God as the distant watchmaker or emanance
Pila Mulligan: in the first case God was in the midst
Wol Euler: aaaaah
Pila Mulligan: in the second God wa sint he distance, uninvolved
Pila Mulligan: it isinteresting how terms can evolve in 40 years
Pema Pera: but "in the midst" can also still mean many different things
Pila Mulligan: from these ideas came the use of the terms ontology and teleology
Pila Mulligan: yes, it can Pema
Pema Pera: and while there is overlap with "Being" there are also important differences
Pema Pera: for one thing, the Trinity as a whole may be closer to the notion of Being
Pema Pera: with God more as an emphasis on the unknowable or what Buddhists might call emptiness or Dharmakaya
Pema Pera: as opposed to the other two kayas that would correspond to the Holy Ghost and the Son
Pema Pera: but yet, immanent is closer in spirit than emanent, for sure
Pila Mulligan: well, in the 60's terms, that would be teleology
Mickorod Renard: intersting
Pila Mulligan: as opposed to ontology
Pila Mulligan: terms, as oyu may see, that have eveolved since then with the times

Experience is more important than reading up :)

Mickorod Renard: I think I need to read up some
Pema Pera: or not :)
Lia Rikugun: (me too :()
Pema Pera: we are really concerned here with experience
Pila Mulligan: words ... the way is beyond language :)
Mickorod Renard: true
Pema Pera: cultural studies are inexhaustible
Pema Pera: and the more you experience, the easier it will be to recognize what each culture is pointing to
Pema Pera: before you experience it is unrecognizable what they are writing about

the dichotomy of immanence and emmanence and the immanent God.

Pila Mulligan: but this particular disticntion seems to keep arising in theological circles
Pila Mulligan: immanecne and emmanence
Pema Pera: yes, and one way to point to Being is to say: Being is above all dichotomies, also above the dichotomy of immanence and emmanence
Pila Mulligan: as there is neither here nor there?
Pema Pera: even though it may feel better to use the term immanence
Pema Pera: and it is not a word game
Pema Pera: it really has a deep meaning
Pema Pera: we have to drop concepts to let Being be a resource for us
Pila Mulligan: the watchmaker god, the teleological god of a distant authority, is more suspect in moder circles
Pila Mulligan: the watchmaker metaprhor referred to a creator, he made it wound it up and sat back to observe
Pema Pera: that's definitely not what we mean with Being, but let's have a closer look at the opposite
Pema Pera: how do you see an immanent God, Pila?
Pila Mulligan: that may be rhetorical, but Pila loves answering ...
Pema Pera: well, you brought up the term!
Pila Mulligan: then, God is present, prresent in everyehitng
Pema Pera: yes, but only present? passively?
Pila Mulligan: nope, actively present
Pema Pera: as a kind of hidden force?
Pema Pera: doing things?
Lia Rikugun: what is he doing?
Pila Mulligan: nope, a kind of obvious presence )

God as Tao and what is the Tao doing.

Pila Mulligan: this is Pila's Taoist answering now
Pema Pera: that's fine!
Pila Mulligan: God in Nature
Mickorod Renard: grin
Pema Pera: So God as Tao?
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pema Pera: yes, that's certainly a lot closer to Being as I like to use the term than a blind watchmaker :)
Pema Pera: it would be interesting though, to explore that further. Lia asked what the Tao is doing. What would you say, Pila?
Pema Pera: (and then another 90 seconds of silence soon :-)
Pila Mulligan: well, at the moment it is 4:30 am here, and so I look at the inwdows next to my desk and see black glass
Wol Euler is somewhat uneasy with the suggestion that "watchmaker" implies absence. The first watches were very inaccurate, needing to be reset at least once every day. The first watchmakers were quite active.
Pila Mulligan: in a few hours, I will look and see a rainforest
Pema Pera: interesting point, Wol !
Pila Mulligan: is the forest not there now?

 90 seconds...

Pema Pera: dong
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pema Pera: yes, Pila, please continue!
Wol Euler smiles. Perhaps Storm could also add a second sound fo the end, a delicate quiet tone like a fingernail on a goblet
Pila Mulligan: what the Tao is doing is sometimes not visible
Pila Mulligan: but itis always there
Pema Pera: yes, Wol, he will do that
Pema Pera: I already asked him -- will happen very soon!
Wol Euler: (sorry)
Pila Mulligan: maybe a sound less grating please :)
Pema Pera: HI Qt!
Mickorod Renard: hi Qt
Qt Core: Hi all
Pema Pera: and hi Korii!
Lia Rikugun: hello qt
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Qt:)
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Korii:)
Pila Mulligan: hi St and Korii
Mickorod Renard: but Pila,,we know thats down to the effects of earth orbit
Lia Rikugun: hello korii
Mickorod Renard: Hi Korii
Pila Mulligan: we have so many details, eh Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Pema Pera: We were just starting a conversation about the Tao, of Taoism, and Pila is Playing as Tao :-)
Wol Euler smiles and skritches Korii's ears
Wol Euler: hello qt
Qt Core: ho wol
Korii Tiger yawns and nods..
Pema Pera: [7:32] Pila Mulligan: what the Tao is doing is sometimes not visible [7:32] Pila Mulligan: but itis always there
Pema Pera: [7:29] Pila Mulligan: well, at the moment it is 4:30 am here, and so I look at the inwdows next to my desk and see black glass
Pema Pera: [7:29] Pila Mulligan: in a few hours, I will look and see a rainforest
Mickorod Renard: but in a day to day exiastance,,living etc,,we have our ways of living within the idea of God or perhaps Being
Pema Pera: [7:29] Pila Mulligan: is the forest not there now?
Pema Pera: (and Lia asked: what is the Tao doing?)
Korii Tiger: What is tao?
Pema Pera: Pila?
Pema Pera: (Pila brought in the Tao :-)
Scathach Rhiadra: good question, I was wondering that too:)
Pila Mulligan: tao is the swishing of a tiger's tail
Wol Euler smiles

Opening up to Being.

Mickorod Renard: I was thinking of how we experience Being,,,is it not a sense of well being or spirituality,,etc that can relate to a feeling of working with God?
Korii Tiger: i can work with that
Mickorod Renard: As in a feeling of love and understanding etc
Pema Pera: hi Corvi!
Mickorod Renard: Hi Corv
Pila Mulligan: hi Corvi
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello corvi:)
Lia Rikugun: hello corv
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hiya, ya'll.
Wol Euler: hello corvi
Pema Pera: we can open up to Being, or the Tao and then there can be many side effects, including feeling better for sure . . . the question is how to open up
Pema Pera: how to let go of our habitual ensconcement in our ego fortification
Pema Pera: and our concepts and words
Pema Pera: how to really explore . . . .
Pema Pera: traditional answers are prayer or meditation or yoga or tai chi etc
Mickorod Renard: well,,get back to basics,,and a sense of humbleness to the greatness that is around us
Pila Mulligan: yep, Mick, and that sense can arise in an endeavor
Pila Mulligan: any*
Mickorod Renard: realise that we can effect in both small and big ways but not each all the time
Pila Mulligan: a coobler finds heaven b making shoes
Pila Mulligan: typos excused please
Mickorod Renard: yes
Mickorod Renard: and a cobbler see's more in a pair of shoes than an electrician
Pila Mulligan: well, Pema sees mor eint he starts than I, in terms of details, but probablyont int terms of inspriration
Mickorod Renard: by seeing an insite into what others see broadens our understanding of others
Pila Mulligan: stars*
Pema Pera: btw, we've started a new kind of exploration: after the bell rings here, we remain silent for 90 seconds instead of 9 seconds, for a change ( a kind of turbo PaB ) -- in a minute or so

90seconds...

Pema Pera: ding dong
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: ;-)
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: yes, appreciations of the details forms inroads into real experience, more than thinking about them

See to Being instead of see through Being. Transformation is important. Watch an ice cube melt...

Mickorod Renard: if I may say something
Mickorod Renard: sometimes its hard to see through Being
Mickorod Renard: but
Mickorod Renard: If I try and look at the world or myself through say,,Gods eyes,,,then i see myself and my thoughts and my actions etc
Mickorod Renard: and I see the sectret thoughts adn the dirty washing etc
Mickorod Renard: and the sadness and the joy
Mickorod Renard: the love and war
Mickorod Renard: is that how we should see through Being?
Pila Mulligan: may I offer a response?
Pema Pera: of course!
Mickorod Renard: ok by me
Pila Mulligan: it is an actual expereiment
Pila Mulligan: a contemplative expereiment
Pila Mulligan: becaus ein my opinion the answer to these questions is 90% physical
Pila Mulligan: watch an ice cube melt
Pila Mulligan: literally, probably on a plate :)
Pila Mulligan: so it doesn't get things wet
Pila Mulligan: watch it go from frozen to water
Pila Mulligan: it will tell you some things
Lia Rikugun: :)
Pema Pera: a very nice adventure, Pila -- have you done that recently?
Pila Mulligan: oh wihtin the past twenty years
Pila Mulligan: the idea is that transformation is a part of seeing
Pila Mulligan: that how we should see to (not through) Being
Corvuscorva Nightfire: yesyes.
Pema Pera: indeed, we cannot see through Being
Corvuscorva Nightfire: if we ARE being..then we can't see through it.
Pema Pera: but we can let Being see -- that's quite different
Pema Pera: and yes, we can also appreciate appearances, like ice melting
Corvuscorva Nightfire: it's changing the perspective on that appearance.
Pema Pera: I'm glad we are taking the time to compare our descriptions
Pema Pera: yes!
Mickorod Renard: but Being can see whether I let it or not??
Pema Pera: well, Being is not a thing or a person
Pema Pera: so there is no answer, Mick
Pema Pera: but without an answer you can still do the exploration
Pema Pera: and as Wol reported, it can have a huge effect
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I will stay with seeing Being for the mom
Pila Mulligan: ent*
Pila Mulligan: and the mom :)
Pema Pera: Pila's Taoist approach similarly starts with seeing
Mickorod Renard: moment
Pema Pera: only later using words
Pila Mulligan: sometimes we are like the frozen ice
Pila Mulligan: the important thing is to be in more than one state
Pema Pera: yes
Pila Mulligan: to start to melt when necessary
Pema Pera: to let melting happen
Pema Pera: without struggle
Mickorod Renard: ok,,I think I am happy seeing the broader picture,,but have been finding my way of a media
Pila Mulligan: it is also really interesting to see how the transformation in ice takes place --really fun
Mickorod Renard: and yes,,it is something you experience and it is enlightening,,but hard to describe
Pema Pera: yes, I'm sure -- the closer you observe, the more you see, and then something else happens . . . you fall into it
Pila Mulligan: how do you mean media mick?
Mickorod Renard: and best with some time to reflect
Wol Euler thinks "to start to melt when necessary/to let melting happen without struggle" is very much Tao.

90 seconds...

Pema Pera: (ding)
Lia Rikugun: (sorry i have to go , have an appartment to visit :))
Mickorod Renard: bye Lia
Pila Mulligan: bye Lia, have a nice visit
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lia
Wol Euler: bye lia, viel spass und viel glück
Qt Core: bye Lia
Lia Rikugun: thank you!
Lia Rikugun: byebye
Pema Pera: bye Lia
Mickorod Renard: well,,the same means as everyone really Pila,,the mind
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Pila Mulligan: mind as media ;)
Pila Mulligan: how about heart?
Mickorod Renard: but yes,,although I may have dressed up mine in different ways
Mickorod Renard: ok,,maybe the soul
Pila Mulligan: and, this i sno joke, the sole
Pila Mulligan: the feet
Pila Mulligan: we can learn with our feet too
Mickorod Renard: yea,,ok the whole
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: grin

Pema asks Pila if he thinks there are differences in his Taoist expressions in contrast to those introduced in PaB. Pila asnweres with the parable of the blind people and the elephant.

Pema Pera: Pila, may I ask something?
Pila Mulligan: somethingelse :)
Pema Pera: your description of the ice cube melting is a wonderful example of what I have been trying to point at with "appreciate the presence of appearance"
Pema Pera: it is good to compare different expressions, like your Taoist ones and the ones I introduced here for PaB
Pema Pera: would you say that they are close, or do you see differences?
Qt Core: nice now i get it a little more, it was rether vague for me ;-)
Pila Mulligan: are we all familiar with the parable of the blind people and the elephant?
Wol Euler grins
Mickorod Renard: no?
Pema Pera: :)
Qt Core: no
Pila Mulligan: so once upon a time ...
Pila Mulligan: a circus came to a town where there were many blind people
Mickorod Renard: listens contentedly
Qt Core: (remembering)
Pila Mulligan: and it was told that the circus had elephants
Pila Mulligan: something blind people had not heard of before
Pila Mulligan: these particular blind people that is
Pila Mulligan: so they sent a delegation tot he circus to discover, what is an elephant?
Pila Mulligan: and the delegation went to the elephants and began to touch them
Pila Mulligan: then they went back to report their findings
Pila Mulligan: one said, well an elephant is liek a borad leaf oif a tree (this one had felt the ear)
Pila Mulligan: then next one said, oh no, the elephant is like the trunk of a tee (having felt the legs)
Pila Mulligan: the next said no, the elephnat is like a snake dangling for a tree (the tail)
Pila Mulligan: and so on ...
Pila Mulligan: so each really felt the elephant
Pila Mulligan: but each told their feelings accroding to what they felt
Mickorod Renard: nice
Pila Mulligan: so however close we get, we still have our own feelings
Wol Euler: and they were all right too!
Korii Tiger: and that they may not even be true to the actuality of it...
Wol Euler: their perceptions were each perfectly correct; just not _complete_
Pila Mulligan: so many details :)
Mickorod Renard: yes
Pema Pera: another possibility is that three people will say "like a snake" or "like a rope" or "like a vine" while all touching the same part -- they may still use different words. In our case, that sames more likely, with the ice cubes described in Taoist terms or in connection with Being, don't you think, Pila?
Mickorod Renard: when feeling appreciation..do we all feel grateful?
Pema Pera: *seems
Pila Mulligan: yes
Pema Pera: so many levels in one metaphor!
Wol Euler nods. I get a feeling of isn't-it-wonderful-ness, ghratitude might be a good word :)
Mickorod Renard: mmmmmm
Mickorod Renard: I suppose some of my questions have been to do with a personal conflict I need to deal with in my head
Pila Mulligan: feel free to give more details if you want mick

90 seconds...

Pema Pera: (ding ding)

Mick describes a life changing thing which happened out of the blue. He became very accepting and loving without wanting anything back in return. And sensitive to the needs of others.

Corvuscorva Nightfire: aw Mick...the personal is political...and it is....spiritual.
Mickorod Renard: well,,I do feel enlightenment,,and also a great feeling of seeing,,it happened about 3 years ago..a life changing thing,,and I am not young and have experienced many things ...around the world..but feel grateful to God
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: even though i go to budhist meets in Rl too
Pila Mulligan: well, conflicts can resolve themselves in time
Mickorod Renard: true
Pema Pera: did it happen out of the blue, mick?
Pila Mulligan: make me think of unangling a rope
Mickorod Renard: yes
Pila Mulligan: untangling*
Mickorod Renard: depends which bit
Mickorod Renard: the thing 3 years ago,,yes
Pema Pera: and how did it change your life?
Mickorod Renard: mmm..may take several weeks to explain
Pema Pera: :-)
Pema Pera: a preview perhaps?
Mickorod Renard: but i am a diferent person..and can see this by the response of other people
Mickorod Renard: I have become very accepting of people,,very loving in a nice way,,and it comes back to you through them
Wol Euler nods
Mickorod Renard: even though I do it without want for return
Wol Euler nods vigorously
Pema Pera nods also
Mickorod Renard: its not even a concious thing
Mickorod Renard: and I am very aware of people in need
Mickorod Renard: so have become sensitive
Mickorod Renard: in ways that are strange
Mickorod Renard: and I have a deep understanding of a folly in life itself
Corvuscorva Nightfire: a folly?
Mickorod Renard: well,,,the futileness of trying to control life
Mickorod Renard: we make our own crosses to bear
Pila Mulligan: life is a story of movement from place to place
Wol Euler nods.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Thank you Mick
Mickorod Renard: I suppose I spent too long in isolation
Mickorod Renard: for many years
Mickorod Renard: my pleasure
Mickorod Renard: dont worry,,I wasnt in prison
Pema Pera: :)
Pila Mulligan: :)
Mickorod Renard: ;-)
Pema Pera: perhaps you were . . . .
Wol Euler leans across and gives your hand a squeeze. Welcome to the world, Mick :)
Mickorod Renard: thanks Wol
Pema Pera: perhaps we all still are . . . .
Wol Euler: mmhmm
Mickorod Renard: I like to think I spent 7 years in the winderness
Mickorod Renard: almost 8
Pila Mulligan: so oyu want to balance your new sensitivities?
Mickorod Renard: I tell you what i find nice but dificult
Mickorod Renard: I have been awoke by an over active mind,,and it is so hungry
Mickorod Renard: Hi Neela
Mickorod Renard: here puss
Wol Euler: Kitty seems restless too...
Pema Pera: Hi Neela!

goodbyes...

Pema Pera is watching his own watch: time to return to RL -- see you all soon!
Neela Blaisdale: Hi - wow still meeting. a long one!
Mickorod Renard: bye Pema,,I must go too
Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
Wol Euler: bye ... wow that was fast
Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Mick
Wol Euler: bye mick, thank you for telling us that.
Pila Mulligan: hi Neela
Mickorod Renard: bye everyone,,thankyou
Wol Euler: hi neela
Neela Blaisdale: Just thought I'd stop for a quick hello...must ahve been a good discussion!
Wol Euler: still is :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye! Mick!
Corvuscorva Nightfire: hi Neela!!!
Wol Euler chuckles. THis is like watching the little ball roll around the rim of the roulette wheel, wondering which slot it'll land in.
Neela Blaisdale: what were you all talking about today?
Pila Mulligan: it began with [7:11] Mickorod Renard: but I like thinking that Being could be seen as some would see God
Pila Mulligan: and ended with Mick describing a personal epiphany
Pila Mulligan: all within the sweep ot the swishing of the tiger's tail :)
Pila Mulligan: well, Pila needs to go greet the rising sun
Wol Euler smiles and nods.
Wol Euler: take care, pila, enjoy the day
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Pila..thank you.
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pila
Pila Mulligan: thanks , bye bye
Neela Blaisdale: Bye Pila
Qt Core: bye Pila
Wol Euler: oh, when did Korii leave? These tigers are so stealthy...
Scathach Rhiadra: :)
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods
Qt Core: a couple min ago, no warning
Neela Blaisdale: Well, good to see you all, have to cook a brisket...
Scathach Rhiadra: bye Neela
Qt Core: bye
Wol Euler: ah, bye neela. cook well!
Wol Euler: enjoy the weekend
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Neela!
Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, see you all later, namaste
Wol Euler: bye scath, take care.
Qt Core: bye scath
Neela Blaisdale: Bye Scath
Wol Euler: qt, come and join us :)
Qt Core: :-)
Neela Blaisdale: See you later I hope
Corvuscorva Nightfire: bye, Scath
Qt Core: have to go do some rl errants... under a little sad rain
Neela Blaisdale: Bye again... and ty Wol
Wol Euler: my pleasure, neela. And feel free to pass that on
Wol Euler: bye QT, take care
Neela Blaisdale: yup
Neela Blaisdale: Bye Qt
Qt Core: you all too
Qt Core: Ciao