2009.03.07 13:00 - Mind, the final frontier

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    Wol Euler recovered this session from the autologging database. The guardian was Aurora Kitaj.



    Aurora Kitaj: Did I send you a url for the group Qt?

    Aurora Kitaj: Explaining what Play as Being is about?

    Aurora Kitaj: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell

    Qt Core: for the site and a lm

    Aurora Kitaj: THe session starts in just a few minutes

    Arisia Vita: love the uniform qt

    Arisia Vita: I'm a big ST fan

    Qt Core: :-)

    Qt Core: reading the site (and checking the uniform permissions )

    Aurora Kitaj: looks intently at the uniform and guesses that it is from one of the more modern incarnations of ST

    Aurora Kitaj: lol

    Arisia Vita: I have one... :)

    Aurora Kitaj: you can come as you are here

    Arisia Vita: shall we make this a ST themed meeting?

    Qt Core: i have several, but most have little design probelems

    Aurora Kitaj: could do, but we might get a contingent from the 'we don't like st group'

    Aurora Kitaj: and then we'd be in for trouble

    Aurora Kitaj: lo

    Arisia Vita: then I'll change back :)

    Qt Core: there are many episodes about mind/meditation/identity

    Aurora Kitaj: happy to make it hte topic, if you wish,

    Aurora Kitaj: love ST, but no expert

    Arisia Vita: I was just playing with qt

    Arisia Vita: :)

    Qt Core: she is even higher grade than me ;-)

    Qt Core: i don't wear grades to avoid problems in trek sim

    Aurora Kitaj: sorry, please translate... 'grades'?

    Aurora Kitaj: so there is a sim, just for start trek?

    Qt Core: rank, sorry i made a bad translation

    Aurora Kitaj: Can you descibe the sim to me?

    Qt Core: tens if not hundreds i think

    Arisia Vita: welcome Zen

    Zen Arado: Hi Aorora

    Arisia Vita: welcome Exti

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Zen, nice to see you:)

    Extropia DaSilva: Hello.

    Zen Arado: everyone

    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Extropia

    Qt Core: they try to clone a starship or the starfleet headquarters, usuallu

    Extropia DaSilva: I trod on you Ari. Sorry about that.

    Aurora Kitaj: nice to see you again:)

    Qt Core: hi extropia, zen

    Arisia Vita: I rather enjoyed it

    Arisia Vita: :)

    Arisia Vita: welcome Mick

    Mickorod Renard: evening

    Aurora Kitaj: Well, we've had a suggestion for a Star Trek focussed discussion :)

    Extropia DaSilva: Hello:)

    Aurora Kitaj: albeit a lighthearted one

    Extropia DaSilva: Ok. Is space really the final frontier, or will it be the mind that is the last thing to yield its mysteries?

    Mickorod Renard: just been watching an episode of star trek enterprise

    Qt Core: mind with space as its playground

    Aurora Kitaj: Perfect...

    Zen Arado: you think we will ever really visit other galaxies?

    Arisia Vita: welcome Maggie

    Extropia DaSilva: Oh, sure.

    Mickorod Renard: hiya maggie

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Maggie, please come and take a seat:)

    Maggie Rae: Hello - :)

    Zen Arado: Hi Maggie

    Qt Core: we may need maybe several , many thousands years to get the science and tech but yes

    Extropia DaSilva: Once cryogenics is coupled with nanomedicine and we can revive those that have been frozen, we could send brave souls on such journeys.

    Mickorod Renard: my partner thinks I live in another universe already

    Zen Arado: if we survive that long !

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Michorod, nice to see you

    Mickorod Renard: hiya aurora

    Qt Core: for others solar sistem that would be enough, for other galaxies i don't think

    Zen Arado: we don't know what technology is round the corner

    Extropia DaSilva: As for ourselves, well we are information. Once we are running as AI, we could just transmit our software via radio telescope. Of course, there would need to be a receiver at the other end, plus a robot to download into.

    Arisia Vita: welcome Lyday

    Zen Arado: have to look beyond todays limits

    Lyday Latte: hi

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,it only takes one invention or discovery

    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Lyday, delighted that you've managed to come along

    Qt Core: extropia, have you ever read "Accelerando"

    Arisia Vita: welcome Scat

    Aurora Kitaj: please take a seat

    Maggie Rae: I do not believe that Human intelligence will leave our Solar System - our makeup is to watery - too massive and our DNA too fragile

    Extropia DaSilva: Yes, many times.

    Aurora Kitaj: we seem to be talking about time and space travel

    Lyday Latte: where do i go

    Aurora Kitaj: with a star trek twist

    Zen Arado: but owuld it be the same ;I' at the other end ?

    Qt Core: but even that it will be onli light speed

    Zen Arado: that is a philosophical question

    Extropia DaSilva: We are not human, though. Our patterns are currently run on human brains, but we residents of Sl are software constructs.

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello all:)

    Mickorod Renard: I have wondered whether it will be down to our minds to do the extra dimensional travel,,rather than our boddies

    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Scath:)

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hrllo Adams:)

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Abigail:)

    Mickorod Renard: hi scath

    Adams Rubble: Hello everyone :)

    Lyday Latte: im confuse alredy

    Extropia DaSilva: So we should be thinking in terms of space travel for software life forms, not meatbags.

    Mickorod Renard: hi adams

    Zen Arado: waht if we could deconstruct and then reconstruct our human bodies somewhere else?

    Zen Arado: Hi Scath

    Qt Core: then we will solve the soul existence question ;-)

    Zen Arado: it doesn't exist :)

    Extropia DaSilva: It is a misreading of what soul means to put it like that.

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hey Tarmel:)

    Adams Rubble: Hello Tarmel :)

    Aurora Kitaj: Hi Tarmel:)

    Zen Arado: I dont think so anyway :)

    Lyday Latte: im new can someone explain what we do here

    Zen Arado: Hi Tarmel

    Maggie Rae: Hello :)

    Aurora Kitaj: http://playasbeing.wik.is/Informatio..._in_a_Nutshell

    Tarmel Udimo: hi everyone

    Mickorod Renard: hi tarmel

    Arisia Vita: hi Tarmel

    Aurora Kitaj: This is what we do in a nutshell Lyday

    Lyday Latte: i read but dont understand

    Zen Arado: we discuss things ?

    Zen Arado: my impression

    Lyday Latte: its not a story/

    Zen Arado: from our experience

    Lyday Latte: rather its a discusion of philosophy?

    Qt Core: firdt time here but.... we share our discoberies ?

    Qt Core: first

    Zen Arado: not strictly

    Zen Arado: anything really?

    Extropia DaSilva: Just so you know, in the original Jewish meaning of the word, 'soul' is something you can participate in, like 'community'. It is not a mystical, non-material thing that you either have or do not. We think of it that way because of a misunderstanding that stems from ancient Greece, when they used the term 'psyche' in place of soul.

    Zen Arado: yes

    Adams Rubble: We explore to find our connection to reality

    Aurora Kitaj: Play as Being is a group of people exploring reality by using our own life as a laboratory. It's a thought experiment to see what is left if we put down what we have. Can we make conjectures, hypotheses about what Being could be, and play with those in our day-to-day life? What happens when we do? The best way to find out is to just give it a try. You can also consult the FAQ page. Or read snippets from some of our daily discussion excerpts , and glimpse some examples of how the practice has changed our real life.

    Pema Pera: Hi everybody!

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema

    Adams Rubble: Hello Pema :)

    Mickorod Renard: hi Pema

    Zen Arado: Hi Pema

    Tarmel Udimo: hi pema

    Maggie Rae: Hello Pema

    Pema Pera: wow, what a crowd!

    Zen Arado: yes 'soul' is a hard to define concept then ?

    Mickorod Renard: has anyone mentioned about it all being recorded?

    Tarmel Udimo: nice to have you here

    Lyday Latte: what are the rules

    Qt Core: something like the indiam brhaman ?

    Extropia DaSilva: So if people ask 'can a robot have a soul' the answer is 'no', because humans do not have a 'soul' either. The right question to ask is, 'can X participate in 'soul' '.

    Zen Arado: or what is a soul

    Zen Arado: ?

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Pema

    Extropia DaSilva: Well, it is more like community. It is not a thing that you have. It is something you can partake in.

    Qt Core: collective consciousness ?

    Zen Arado: but there is a commonly held definition or concept

    Pema Pera: Perhaps I'm repeating information, but just to make sure: We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?

    Pema Pera: you = those who are new here?

    Extropia DaSilva: I do not mean it is literally like a community. I just mean that, just like a community is not a 'thing' a person can possess, but rather is something you can participate in, same thing applies to 'soul'.

    Zen Arado: can't see the connection with community ?

    Qt Core: no problem in recording for me

    Zen Arado: it is usually thought of as pertaing to an individual ?

    Extropia DaSilva: nor I

    Pema Pera: what an interesting notion, Extropia!

    Zen Arado: yes

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,sounds a bit like being?

    Extropia DaSilva: Yes. But only according to the mistranslation that stems from the ancient greek word 'psyche'. In Judaism, where it originated, it means something else.

    Pema Pera: more like a realm, or channel of sharing/communicating, or field, or so ?

    Zen Arado: but this is not commonly accepted

    Lyday Latte: this concept no different than any abstraction; i can "particpate" in mathematics, philosophy...

    Zen Arado: you are redefining?

    Zen Arado: to most people it is something e all possess that leaves the body at death

    Zen Arado: an immaterial substance

    Zen Arado: whether or not there has been an error in translation or something

    Zen Arado: agree?

    Extropia DaSilva: Yes. But that is not the true meaning of the word. However, you are right that everybody accepts that definition, even though it is not correct if you go by the original meaning.

    Zen Arado: but what is 'true' here?

    Zen Arado: what everyone accepts is true?

    Zen Arado: or truer?

    Extropia DaSilva: It is true that I am probably wrong. Other than that, I would not like to say with any certainty.

    Mickorod Renard: or individually accept

    Qt Core: no zen

    Arisia Vita: welcome Zobi

    Zen Arado: words only mean what we want them to mean

    Extropia DaSilva: Hello Zobi.

    Qt Core: at most it has more probability to be true, but no guarantee

    Zen Arado: as someone said in Alice in wonderland :)

    Lyday Latte: Extropia -- do you mean that "soul" is a "process"

    Zen Arado: Hi Zobi

    Mickorod Renard: hi zobi

    Zobeid Zuma: hi

    Lyday Latte: cuz that makes sense to me

    Pema Pera: Ho Zobeid! We get together a few times a day to chat about the nature of reality, and everything else, and we have a wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/ -- We record our conversations there. Do you mind being included in our blogs?

    Zen Arado: to me it is a commonly held but very illogical concept

    Lyday Latte: What is Zen

    Mickorod Renard: maybe u mean the developement of ones individual soul?

    Zen Arado: it isnt thought of as a process

    Extropia DaSilva: Well, I could not give you a precise meaning. I am only going on what I just learned from an interview with Ann Foerst, who runs the Theology and AI department at MIT.

    Zen Arado: haha I dont know

    Qt Core: it seems to me you see it as a communication channel

    Lyday Latte: im new here and get kind of confused with chat: if you answer me woudl be helpful to put my name in response

    Pema Pera: But the notion of a soul as a little ghost living inside us is certainly too naive, so opening up the concepts for something more innately sharable seems like an interesting move

    Mickorod Renard: maybe thats us,,the meeting of souls

    Pema Pera: yes, good idea, Lyday, we have a big crowd today!

    Zen Arado: agree Pema

    Extropia DaSilva: I see it like this. If any nonhuman species sits in a group like this, and is accepted as part of the group, it has soul.

    Zen Arado: so many believe in it though

    Zen Arado: gives the possibility of life after death I think

    Pema Pera: gotta have soul, and blues, and . . . .

    Lyday Latte: So you do seem to be redefining what soul is Extropia

    Zen Arado: yes a different meaning for the word

    Lyday Latte: Traditional view vs soul as community collective or process (which is my addition)

    Extropia DaSilva: No. I am going by the original meaning.

    Lyday Latte: ok extropia. Can you tell me again whats the original meaning

    Lyday Latte: to clairfy

    Extropia DaSilva: Life after death. Well, 'permanent person presence' is responsible for that.

    Zen Arado: but that meaning is out of date Extropia?

    Lyday Latte: how can a culturla meaning become out of date zen

    Lyday Latte: it just changes thru time, yes?

    Zen Arado: because language is a process

    Zen Arado: always changing

    Extropia DaSilva: Soul is like 'courage'...Um, think in terms of something you can aspire to, rather than something you just have or do not have.

    Zen Arado: no ?

    Zen Arado: cultures change too

    Extropia DaSilva: Evolution.

    Zen Arado: yes

    Zen Arado: of language

    Lyday Latte: Langue does not go out of date; it is a process yes. It changes but has no agenda -- there is no "progress' in linguistic change thru time or in cultural change thru time. ONly adaptation to environmental and social context

    Extropia DaSilva: Affects everything.

    Mickorod Renard: well,,until someone defines soul scientifically it will always be a grey area

    Pema Pera: interesting comparison, Lyday!

    Zen Arado: but if it adapts the old model is 'out of date' Lyday?

    Pema Pera scratching his grey brain cells symbolically :)

    Lyday Latte: no

    Lyday Latte: not out of date

    Zen Arado: we continually must use new metaphors

    Lyday Latte: just not appropriate to social or environmental contxt

    Zen Arado: ok just a different way of putting it

    Lyday Latte: or... hmm this is complicatedcuz of cutlral evolution and power structures

    Zen Arado: to me anyway :)

    Extropia DaSilva: When someone you know is not within sight or hearing, your mind tells you they have not vanished. They are 'somewhere' doing 'something'. But when a person dies, that sense still persists even though they have now ceased to exist. It is for that reason that we entertain 'life after death' notions.

    Zen Arado: ah...but is it just wishful thinking?

    Extropia DaSilva: Religion just helped to emphasise it.

    Zen Arado: we hate to think there is nothingness after death

    Mickorod Renard: having an amputation still leaves the sense of presence of the lost limb

    Lyday Latte: actually i dont mind it

    Extropia DaSilva: And, it is not true that 'death happens to us all'. It is true that 'death happens to everyone ELSE'.

    Lyday Latte: i have no problem with no life after d3ath

    Lyday Latte: dont get the fuss

    Zen Arado: zen tells us there is no birth or death

    Zen Arado: they are just constructions we put on a process

    Extropia DaSilva: I can see that. Just rearrangements of patterns of matter and energy.

    Zen Arado: it is hard to escape our conditioning though :)

    Tarmel Udimo: and the experience of: Just rearrangements of patterns of matter and energy is what we try to explore here

    Extropia DaSilva: Is that what 'your mind is like the cup, it can hold no more knowledge' tries to teach us?

    Zobeid Zuma: Is there anything wrong with organizing the world around us into such "constructions"? It seems like a good way of dealing with things.

    Zen Arado: good point Zo

    Aurora Kitaj: OH, Hello Zobeid:)

    Maggie Rae: I believe all life is caused by retrograde flows in entropy.

    Zen Arado: they ease the pain of living ?

    Lyday Latte: i think organizing world in meaningufl way is good as long as it not affect others or the earth in determintal way

    Zen Arado: I find cryogenics a bit distasteful

    Lyday Latte: maggie i not understand what is retrograde mean and what is entropy please

    Zobeid Zuma: The universe is a heat engine. You could have life (or anything else interesting) without increasing entropy.

    Extropia DaSilva: But, maybe the reason why we fear death, is the prospect of hell? The Atheistic notion of death is that it will never happen. Not to ME (me, being anybody's subjective pov).

    Zen Arado: yes that too Ex

    Adams Rubble slips away quietly

    Zobeid Zuma: I mean, *couldn't* have life.

    Extropia DaSilva: Not always Zobeid. Not once the DeSitter horizon emerges.

    Lyday Latte: I bet lots of ppl thru time have feared death Extropia; and many did not have concept of hell. Do you seek universla reason why we fear death? or culture specific one.

    Pema Pera: It's great to see so many new faces here -- have you all heard about the way we investigate the topics that we are talking about now, in a direct experimental fashion, in our "9-seconds" explorations?

    Zobeid Zuma: DeSitter horizon??

    Zen Arado: Desitter ?

    Qt Core: just read on your site

    Zobeid Zuma: I also saw it mentioned on the website.

    Pema Pera as an astrophysicist, is very tempted to talk about De Sitter horizons, but . . . first things first, 9-sec :-)

    Pema Pera: yes,

    Pema Pera: the basic idea is this:

    Extropia DaSilva: Dark energy increases until it pushes matter along at the speed of light. At this point, the DeSitter horizon arises, in which anti-particles and particles may form, one either side of it...

    Pema Pera: for a few hours each day, we spend 9 seconds every 15 minutes to stop and drop what we have to see what we are

    Extropia DaSilva: Oh, looks like Pema is going to explain for me.

    Pema Pera: very simple instructions

    Pema Pera: do it ten times a day

    Pema Pera: one and a half minutes

    Pema Pera: the same time it takes to brush your teeth

    Pema Pera: but . . . .

    Pema Pera: . . . . anything you do ten times a day will get under your skin

    Pema Pera: into your dreams

    Pema Pera: into your attitude toward life

    Pema Pera: and life's challenges, problems

    Pema Pera: anybody any comments or questions about this basic idea?

    Pema Pera: 9 sec in 15 minutes is like a 1% time tax, like a kind of joke :)

    Zen Arado: you have to write something about it too ?

    Pema Pera: would be better, yes

    Pema Pera: don't have to

    Pema Pera: but like trying to remember dreams, good idea to write brief notes

    Zen Arado: ok

    Pema Pera: bridge between two states of awareness

    Pema Pera: like a state transition

    Mickorod Renard: I am very much for it Pema,,and making some progress,,but need to take a crow bar to my working day to prise the seconds out

    Extropia DaSilva: Well, anyway, the upshot is that, thanks to the DeSitter horizon, the universe will eventually reach a unifiorm temperature of 10^-29 k. Information processing requires a temperature difference, and that means any lifeforms will fry to death in 10^-29 years time.

    Mickorod Renard: thats cool

    Extropia DaSilva: ..unless we find an escape route, such as wormholes to a parallel universe.

    Extropia DaSilva: ..Or theoretical physics is just wrong and there horizon never forms.

    Qt Core: i'm reading KMaku right now :-)

    Qt Core: Kaku

    Extropia DaSilva: Which book? Parrallel Worlds?

    Mickorod Renard: I am finding exploring the objects in our everyday life facinating at the moment

    Zen Arado: how long do you think hunanity will last ?

    Zobeid Zuma: If we're lucky or unlucky?

    Extropia DaSilva: Another century.

    Qt Core: Hyperspaces

    Extropia DaSilva: Good book, that. I often refer to it.

    Pema Pera: yes, Mick, that is the most challenging thing to do

    Pema Pera: What have you found so far?

    Qt Core: sadly it is a terrible translation

    Zen Arado: so we wont be around to worry about it :)

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,controlling the imagination

    Extropia DaSilva: We might be.

    Tarmel Udimo: controlling the mind perhapss

    Mickorod Renard: always been a dificiult task for me

    Zen Arado: but not control?

    Extropia DaSilva: Our lifespans are limited by a different set of conditions to a humans, remember.

    Zen Arado: just noticing

    Zobeid Zuma: If we're lucky humanity will become obsolete within the coming 100 years or so. If we're unlucky civilization will collapse and we'll straggle along for a few hundred thousand years in a bronze-age type setting before dying out.

    Mickorod Renard: and to think that one has to free it

    Extropia DaSilva: Right, Zobeid.

    Zen Arado: the signs aren't good

    Aurora Kitaj: Zobeid... the first option sounds more worrying to me !

    Zen Arado: but who knows?

    Extropia DaSilva: That 99% of all species on Earth went extinct, tells us something about the human species most probable long-term future.

    Zobeid Zuma: Not to me. The second option is what scares me -- a lot.

    Zen Arado: yes

    Mickorod Renard: maybe if we had been able to keep our focus on the world that we had/have ,,we may have wanted to protect the earth a lil more

    Aurora Kitaj: rethinks options :)

    Extropia DaSilva: But we are not human. We are the products of human/technological imagination. So, the thing that makes humans obsolete could be the sentient software that we might become tomorrow.

    Mickorod Renard: maybe we sould try and spend more time enjoying what we have

    Pema Pera: yes

    Zen Arado: we might evolve into some new consciousness

    Aurora Kitaj: revisits all those notions of the brave new world where it was predicted that we would have so much spare time

    Extropia DaSilva: 'Now' is the only thing we know we have, I guess. So yes we should make the mist of it.

    Mickorod Renard: I fear we have evolved into a subconciousness

    Zobeid Zuma: Never underestimate the power of long-range planning, Extie.

    Zen Arado: I think humans are mainly pragmatic

    Pema Pera: may we have a break in the conversation for just a minute?

    Extropia DaSilva: Aurora. If we were content to live in 1950s conditions, your work life would be half the year off. But we demand luxuries beyond the imagination of 1950s families. That is why we still work so hard.

    Zen Arado: little long range planning actually takes place

    Pema Pera: it's wonderful to see so much energy and so many topics

    Pema Pera: but it is also nice to focus a bit on what we are normally doing here

    Pema Pera: perhaps some of the oldtimers can tell us something about their experience with the 9-sec explorations?

    Pema Pera: Tarmel, or Scathach or . . ?

    Tarmel Udimo: well it was interesting to listen to the topics flashing by

    Tarmel Udimo: I guess for me what's important about these Pab Sessions is a place to actually not talk about what we know or what we think we know

    Tarmel Udimo: but to actually engage with what we have experienced

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Mickorod Renard: yes please

    Extropia DaSilva: How can we do that, if we cannot talk about what we know or think we know? How can I experience something and not have knowledge of it?

    Tarmel Udimo: during doing the 9-secs explorations we have all discovered deep truths which we then come here to talk about

    Zen Arado: I had an experience today

    Lyday Latte: so we do 9 sec thing elsewhere then tak about here?

    Aurora Kitaj: please tell

    Tarmel Udimo: well we're all happy to here what you would like to talk about extropia but it might be worth while heraing what others have to say too

    Extropia DaSilva: Nods

    Mickorod Renard: what was yours zen?

    Zen Arado: I found out my local zen center has taken out another lease

    Zen Arado: that excludes me from attending it because I am disabled

    Pema Pera: yes, Lyday, exactly

    Zen Arado: the center is at the top of a flight of stairs

    Extropia DaSilva: Can this problem be corrected in any way?

    Zen Arado: no

    Aurora Kitaj: what about the DDA Zen

    Zen Arado: so I had to work with the resentment

    Lyday Latte: ADA not cover this?

    Zen Arado: I tried all that before

    Mickorod Renard: maybe its a test of your resolve?

    Zen Arado: it is actually illegal

    Aurora Kitaj: yes

    Zen Arado: but the lack of compassion bugs me

    Zen Arado: we are alright

    Aurora Kitaj: breach of DDA

    Zen Arado: too bad for you

    Lyday Latte: what is DDA

    Aurora Kitaj: Disability Discrimination Act

    Aurora Kitaj: (In UK)

    Lyday Latte: wheres that

    Zen Arado: disability discrimination act

    Lyday Latte: ZEn are you in UIK

    Zen Arado: yes

    Lyday Latte: ok

    Lyday Latte: sue them.

    Aurora Kitaj: yep

    Tarmel Udimo: so as a buddhist how will you work with that Zen?

    Zen Arado: anyay I am resolving to concentrate on my mindfulness group

    Lyday Latte: not only is it a breach of DDA, would that be a breach of all that is sacred to zen buddhism lol

    Zen Arado: yes you would think so

    Extropia DaSilva: The lack of thought bugs me. So often, it is not the disability that is the problem, but the social attitudes. Steps are instrinscally biased against wheelchair users. Our streets do not accomodate a full spectrum of humanity:(

    Lyday Latte: did you point this out...

    Zen Arado: many times I have raised the issue

    Zen Arado: but it is a matter of finance.......

    Lyday Latte: Society disables individuals; disability is not locatd at individiual leve.

    Aurora Kitaj: stunned silence

    Extropia DaSilva: Yes, Lyday.

    Tarmel Udimo: so Zen what are you going to do?

    Mickorod Renard: usually in the uk there are grants from gov to sort that out zen

    Zen Arado: like I said

    Zen Arado: forget about zen

    Tarmel Udimo: well that's one way to go

    Extropia DaSilva: We shall face the question repeatedly in the future. Should we fix the individual? Or societal attitudes towards the individual?

    Zen Arado: and concentrate on my mindfulness meditation group

    Lyday Latte: society first i say

    Zen Arado: there is a lot of tokenism towards disability

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I sometimes think these obstacles come for a reason

    Scathach Rhiadra: and will it be a big loss to Zen, not going to the Zen centre?

    Zen Arado: well I have never been in it

    Zen Arado: after 5 years of membership

    Mickorod Renard: It will mean you will find the right course instead

    Zen Arado: so....I have to work with my own attitudes

    Tarmel Udimo: bye

    Lyday Latte: i disagree; i think that is way to excuse society by saying it was "not the right course for zen"

    Zen Arado: if I can't change things

    Aurora Kitaj: Bye Zobeid!

    Lyday Latte: "if society disables you, then it wasn ot meant to be for your life"

    Zen Arado: Bye Zo

    Pema Pera: I'm sorry to hear all that, Zen!

    Pema Pera: but may we come back to Tarmel and Scathach, who were going to say something about their experience with the 9-sec explorations?

    Mickorod Renard: zen may choose to take it further,,and get a facility for wheelchairs

    Pema Pera: Scathach, do you want to add something to what Tarmel said?

    Zen Arado: tried all that

    Zen Arado: change to something else

    Scathach Rhiadra: I find the 9 second practice very helpful in keeping me focused on the moment throught athe day

    Tarmel Udimo: yes okay:-)

    Extropia DaSilva: ..Just suppose Zen's condition could be fixed. Would it be better to fix Zen, or to change society, such that there are no barriers between himself and a full enjoyment of life?

    Tarmel Udimo: we start with us first

    Aurora Kitaj: yes

    Extropia DaSilva: Suppose fixing socety will take decades. But fixing Zen will take hours.

    Scathach Rhiadra: don't get so scattered doing the practice, and then the regularity of the fifteen minutes comes around so quick, the focusing lasts longer. so to speak

    Qt Core: don't know if i can compare it to the 9sec meditation, but as a programmer i sometimes feel the need to stop and take a couple beep breath to "realign" myself

    Pema Pera: yes, Qt!

    Mickorod Renard: are you using a timer at all..for the 15 mins?

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Pema Pera: in fact, some programmer advice does something very similar

    Pema Pera: some do, some don't Mick

    Mickorod Renard: every 20 mins is the recomended in the uk

    Pema Pera: either way, whatever you prefer

    Qt Core: it is easier since i did some yoga some years ago (sadly i had to stop, loved it)

    Pema Pera: ah, how interesting!

    Tarmel Udimo: thats great Qt

    Scathach Rhiadra: I found it helped in the begining, to get into the habit

    Tarmel Udimo: in fact sounds like you're practising PaB

    Tarmel Udimo: during those monets of breathing to realign try dropping as well

    Tarmel Udimo: moments

    Pema Pera: http://www.mindfulnessdc.org/mindfulclock.html is a computer gong that you can use for the 9 sec

    Qt Core: i have always so many thought threads (or better shells) i have to reorganize them

    Mickorod Renard: lol,,I must copy that,,thanks pema

    Tarmel Udimo: yes okay aftre organising them try stopping and dropping just for a few seconds

    Pema Pera: garbage collection, Qt :-) ?

    Qt Core: ;-)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Tarmel Udimo: :-)

    Pema Pera: or memory reallocation, to be more PC

    Qt Core: mostly zombie processes

    Lyday Latte: what means "dropping"

    Aurora Kitaj: Thanks everyone for the layers of free flowing discussion tonight:)

    Qt Core: stopping them ?

    Pema Pera: ah, EXACTLY, we kill our zombie processes every 15 minutes, what a nice way to discribe it, Qt!

    Extropia DaSilva: I am sorry to say I have to leave now. Thanks for letting me join in:) Bye, everyone.

    Lyday Latte: by extropia

    Lyday Latte: tc

    Qt Core: bye extropia

    Tarmel Udimo: pema will explain dropping and stopping

    Pema Pera: by Extropia!

    Aurora Kitaj: Extropia, thanks for coming along and for your contibution

    Tarmel Udimo: bye extropia

    Mickorod Renard: bye ex

    Aurora Kitaj: please come again soon:)

    Pema Pera: yes, I'll have to leave too -- but feel free to stay here -- we don't have a limit on the time

    Pema Pera: though many of us stay here for an hour or so

    Pema Pera: the longest session on record lasted six hours and ran into the next session :-)

    Mickorod Renard: yikes

    Pema Pera: (we get together four times a day)

    Zen Arado: bye Extropia

    Pema Pera: at 1 and 7, am and pm

    Zen Arado: ty for link Pema

    Mickorod Renard: I must post that notecard on the wiki Pema

    Zen Arado: have it bookmarked

    Qt Core: i think only 1pm would work for me

    Mickorod Renard: same here,,time diference

    Pema Pera: Aurora, did you find out how to claim the chat log?

    Aurora Kitaj: No, but I will edit....from normal chat... very few non PaB related comeings and goings tonigh:)

    Pema Pera: oh but there is a much easier way

    Pema Pera: right click at the base of the fountain

    Mickorod Renard: I can tell you all that since joining p b I have become so relaxed in rl

    Pema Pera: below where it says "recording"

    Pema Pera: and choose "claim" from the pie diagram

    Pema Pera: can you try that?

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes Aurora, claiming the log is much easier, no need to edit

    Pema Pera: glad to hear that, Mick!

    Aurora Kitaj: yes

    Mickorod Renard: and,,I seem to have more time now

    Mickorod Renard: less rush,,more time

    Aurora Kitaj: fraid that isn't an option coming up for me:(

    Zen Arado: you are noticing your mind chatter maybe

    Zen Arado: and dropping it

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,that was a prob 4 me

    Pema Pera: it's a bit tricky Aurora, you have to aim right

    Pema Pera: took me a while too, the first time :)

    Pema Pera: try hit the grey triangle at the base of the fountain

    Pema Pera: yes, Zen, indeed

    Mickorod Renard: I think by our nature of being here,,and in these groups we are proberbly very big thinkers

    Pema Pera: yeah!

    Zen Arado: yes think too much

    Maggie Rae: Everyone, thanks for an interesting discussion - I have to go - next time I'll try for more contribution :)

    Pema Pera: you did it Aurora!

    Aurora Kitaj: Wow!

    Aurora Kitaj: I did it!

    Mickorod Renard: bye maggie

    Scathach Rhiadra: great Aurora, it will be so much easier now

    Pema Pera: now you'll get an IM after you leave or log out, with the URL where you can find the whole log

    Aurora Kitaj: thanks for coming Maggie,

    Zen Arado: my zen teacher wrote on my rakusu 'only don't know'

    Pema Pera: all you have to do is fill in the title,

    Pema Pera: and if you have time, add comments

    Mickorod Renard: if i do a guardian..what is the process for an evening slot?>

    Zen Arado: bye Maggie

    Pema Pera: btw, Tarmel and Schathach here can help you if you have any questions about how to post the log on the wiki

    Aurora Kitaj: thanks Pema and everyone for spoon feeding me:)

    Aurora Kitaj: giggles

    Scathach Rhiadra: yes no problem Aurora:)

    Pema Pera: For now, mick, the process is telling me, and I'll help with the musical chairs :)

    Pema Pera: it would be great if you could take a weekly slot

    Pema Pera: do you mean 1 pm SLT?

    Mickorod Renard: ok ty..just need to pluck up the courage

    Mickorod Renard: yes

    Pema Pera: you'll be fine, Mick! And the first few times we can make sure that there will be another guardian

    Pema Pera: often we have several anyway

    Mickorod Renard: ok,,ty

    Mickorod Renard: I will look at the list again

    Aurora Kitaj: Hello Udge,

    Pema Pera: let me see for a moment -- Hi Udge!

    Udge Watanabe: hello everyone, sorry I'm late

    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Udge:)

    Zen Arado: Hi Udge

    Aurora Kitaj: I'ms sorry, we're just winding up the grop now:(

    Udge Watanabe: :)

    Tarmel Udimo: hi udge

    Mickorod Renard: I am attending a rl budhist evening on friday nights

    Aurora Kitaj: We start at 1pm slt. I think you came a week or so ago?

    Pema Pera: Mick, would Tuesday, 1 pm SLT work for you?

    Aurora Kitaj: You are welome to join us though

    Mickorod Renard: yes,,that sounds good

    Pema Pera: wonderful, Fefonz will be delighted -- you'll take one of his two slots

    Mickorod Renard: ok great

    Mickorod Renard: I think,,he he

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Pema Pera: I'll ask Fefonz to be there the first couple times, to help you out Mick :)

    Mickorod Renard: ok great

    Udge Watanabe: bye pema, take care

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema

    Mickorod Renard: bye Pema

    Pema Pera: Great seeing you all again, y'all come back soon!

    Mickorod Renard: sure will

    Zen Arado: bye Pema

    Tarmel Udimo: bye pema

    Tarmel Udimo: so Qt will you be trying out the 9-secs/

    Arisia Vita: I need to run too, good seeing you all...

    Lyday Latte: me to

    Tarmel Udimo: bye

    Lyday Latte: ty for invite me aurora :)

    Mickorod Renard: bye arisia

    Udge Watanabe: bye ari, take care, and bye lyday

    Lyday Latte: this very cool

    Aurora Kitaj: Thanks so much for coming Lyday

    Mickorod Renard: bye lyday

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Ari

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Lyday

    Arisia Vita: bye all...

    Zen Arado: bye Lyday

    Zen Arado: Ari

    Aurora Kitaj: Thanks for coming also Ari:)

    Lyday Latte: xD

    Qt Core: don't know, maybe i'll come here again but at the moment ii'll stick to my "a couple of breath when my mind ask for it" schedule

    Mickorod Renard: I am struggling doin the 9 second stuff because my day goes so fast

    Udge Watanabe nods. That's pretty well how I do it too, Qt

    Mickorod Renard: but I am using the drive back and forth to work as a slot

    Qt Core: ohh, that too, done somenice discoveries while on column

    Tarmel Udimo: coming here to Pab is like getting a top-up

    Mickorod Renard: I found that just shutting down some of my lateral thinkings went a long way to finding calm

    Zen Arado: I am not sure what ind of thing we should be discussing

    Zen Arado: I have seen a very varied selection

    Zen Arado: so far

    Zen Arado: our experiences?

    Zen Arado: no one seems to do that

    Tarmel Udimo: yes we do end up talking about many subjects, excpet we always bring it back to focus and our experiences

    Mickorod Renard: usually during the hour session we are discussing ways of play as being

    Zen Arado: I haven't heard many experiences being recounted so far

    Zen Arado: just general intellectual discussion?

    Zen Arado: my experience :)

    Qt Core: maybe everytime there is someone new all the "theoredical" discussion is redone ?

    Mickorod Renard: I have to go now

    Mickorod Renard: sorry

    Zen Arado: ok bye Mick

    Qt Core: bye mick

    Mickorod Renard: see you soon

    Udge Watanabe: bye mick, take care

    Aurora Kitaj: Bye Mick

    Mickorod Renard: bye

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Mick

    Aurora Kitaj: thanks for join us

    Scathach Rhiadra: well sometimes Zen the discussion can be dominated by 'general intellectual discussion', can be hard to bring it back on topic:)

    Zen Arado: sure just wondering

    Zen Arado: it is safer than personal disclosure too :)

    Zen Arado: and you can ride your 'hobby horse' topic

    Scathach Rhiadra nods

    Zen Arado: well I guess I'll have to go too

    Udge Watanabe: bye zen, take care

    Scathach Rhiadra: good night Zen:)

    Zen Arado: bye all thanks for discussion

    Qt Core: ty, zen

    Aurora Kitaj: bye Zen, thanks for coming along and for your contibutiosn

    Tarmel Udimo: bye

    Aurora Kitaj: contributions

    Zen Arado: np :)

    Udge Watanabe: it seems I got here just in time :)

    Scathach Rhiadra: :)

    Qt Core: ... to say goodbye to everyone ;-)

    Udge Watanabe: that too.

    Tarmel Udimo: are you leaving us udge?

    Udge Watanabe: not yet :)

    Tarmel Udimo: okay

    Udge Watanabe: or maybe yes.

    Udge Watanabe: Bye all, take care. enjoy the weekend.

    Udge Watanabe: Qt, it was nice almost meeting you.

    Aurora Kitaj: thank for coming along Udge

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Udge, you enjoy yours too:)

    Qt Core: same here

    Aurora Kitaj: please join us again soon

    Udge Watanabe: and aerlier ...

    Udge Watanabe: will do

    Udge Watanabe: :)

    Aurora Kitaj: by Qt, delighted that you were able to make PaB

    Tarmel Udimo: bye

    Aurora Kitaj: Are you off too Tarmel

    Qt Core: ty for inviting me

    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Tarmel

    Aurora Kitaj: thanks for coming

    Qt Core: may come here some more

    Scathach Rhiadra: I must be off too, see you again soon:)

    Aurora Kitaj: Schath

    Qt Core: bye scaTH

    Aurora Kitaj: thank for coming along:)

    Aurora Kitaj: Qt, it would be great if you could come along to some more sessions :)

    Aurora Kitaj: Really appreciate you perspective on things:)

    Aurora Kitaj: Got to go now

    Qt Core: sometimes i don't even think i have one ;-)

    Aurora Kitaj: well, if you do....then you're one up on me:)

    Aurora Kitaj: mine changes every minute

    Qt Core: changing idea isn't alwayus wrong, new data, new decisions

    Qt Core: well. i think i'll go visiting the place

    Aurora Kitaj: bye for now:)

    Qt Core: bye, have fun

    Aurora Kitaj: waves

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