2009.03.12 13:00 - Dialogue Fefonz-Pema #2: YSBS

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    The guardian for this session was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

    As last week, the first part of the session was simply everyone turning up and saying "Hi!". (I have taken the liberty, just for these sessions, to edit out the greetings.) In contrast to last week, this week Pema introduces a short workshop into the dialogue.

    Storm Nordwind: Last week Fefonz and Pema had a dialogue about Being and they agreed to continue, perhaps at this session this week.
    Pema Pera: So, Fefonz, we'll continue our theme session from last week, right?
    Storm Nordwind: So please, do continue! :)
    Fefonz Quan: yep
    Pema Pera: Last week you brought up the question of Being, Fef
    Pema Pera: would you like to take that up now too?
    Fefonz Quan: ok

    Fefonz summarised where we up to and what he'd like to talk about next. Meanwhile Shilv arrived.

    Fefonz Quan: So we discussed a little about being last week, and matbe this week we can look into two versions of PaB
    Fefonz Quan: YSBS
    Fefonz Quan: and ESBS
    Pema Pera: Fine!
    Fefonz Quan: though i didn't completele understood how to practice playing as BEING from last week, and it is an issue of on going contemplation,
    Fefonz Quan: some other forms of practice where mentioned in this forum some months ago
    Fefonz Quan: YSBS - you seeing being seeing
    Fefonz Quan: is the first i went into
    Fefonz Quan: So i can ask in general what does it mean, or start with a question concerning that term:
    Fefonz Quan: when i practice PaB basicall, i try to "drop" the I notion. so how did it came back through the back door as "you" ?


    Pema began with a description of YSBS. Meanwhile Wol joined us.

    Pema Pera: Let me first summarize the idea of YSBS.
    Pema Pera: The exploration that I suggested back then had two parts.
    Pema Pera: First we sit somewhere in a comfortable place, or walk around, whatever we prefer
    Pema Pera: we then notice how we are seeing things
    Pema Pera: nothing special, we just notice the way we look around us
    Pema Pera: that is the first half
    Pema Pera: The second half is to try to let Being see, instead of us
    Pema Pera: So instead of you seeing whatever you see in front of you, let Being see.
    Pema Pera: If you do that, what happens?

    What Pema's description enough to try it for oneself? Fefonz wasn't so sure.

    Pema Pera: Does that make sense, as a description of a possible exploration, Fefonz?
    Pema Pera: Here YSBS is: (first) You Seeing (then) Being Seeing
    Fefonz Quan: not exactly, i don't know how to let being see. can it be explained in more mundane words?
    Pema Pera: no
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: certainly it cannot be explained
    Fefonz Quan: i was afraid of that ?
    Pema Pera: I can give some hints . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . but it is better that you first try a few times for yourself
    Fefonz Quan: in some negations maybe?
    Fefonz Quan: what shouldn't i do?
    Pema Pera: then from your reactions I can get some sense of what you see, and I can then suggest how to see more
    Pema Pera: Just giving advice without knowing what you see is as likely to hinder as to help . . . .
    Fefonz Quan: well, in the regular practice, i watch appearances, visual, feelings, sounds, etc.

    So Pema took the direct approach and turned the session into a workshop for a few minutes.

    Pema Pera: Do you want to do it right now?
    Pema Pera: Perhaps all of us can do it
    Wol Euler grins
    Fefonz Quan: sure, just 9-sec of our time ;-)
    Pema Pera: So let us take a couple minutes to *not* do anything strange or unusual
    Pema Pera: Let us take two minutes looking around us, in RL perhaps or in SL as you like, to remind yourself how we normally see everything that we see in our normal field of vision
    Pema Pera: Let's start right now -- I'll type again after two minutes.


    We all did as Pema had suggested: YS - You Seeing. To an outsider, silence would have reigned for two minutes and only the chirping of the birds would have been heard.

    Pema Pera: Okay, that was two minutes. Let us now rigth away do the other part, also for two minutes:
    Pema Pera: This will be BS :-)
    Pema Pera: Being Seeing
    Pema Pera: Just try to let Being see, rather than you
    Pema Pera: relax the central role you normally play, habitually
    Pema Pera: instead, let yourself be part of all and everything and let Being see
    Pema Pera: good luck :-)

    Once again we all attempted to do as Pema had suggested: this time BS - Being Seeing. Who knows what an outsider would have seen. For some of us, perhaps, it may have seemed there was no such thing as an "outsider". At the end of two minutes, Pema invited our experiences.

    Pema Pera: Two minutes have passed . . .
    Pema Pera: Welcome back!
    Fefonz Quan: :)
    Pema Pera: Does anybody want to share their experiences?

    Fefonz led the way.


    Fefonz Quan: sure
    Fefonz Quan: the first time was like always, gaze jumps from window to PC to hearing the birds in SL to image on teh wall etc.
    Fefonz Quan: The second time was very different in some ways:
    Fefonz Quan: first in order to be "less active", there was less movement, fo eyes, et.
    Fefonz Quan: etc.
    Fefonz Quan: then, trying to to be "i", just let whatever see appearance see, there was a feeling of floating
    Fefonz Quan: the window with trees appeared peacfully, and the sounds sounded more "close" in a way (as well as the image of the tree from teh window).
    Fefonz Quan: then the strangest thing was,
    Fefonz Quan: that looking a little lower at my legs, without the "my" thought, they were like two green objects (pants)
    Fefonz Quan: hanging there in front, again with some floating feeling to tehm
    Fefonz Quan: And - it felt shorter in time, that's about it.
    Pema Pera: Thank you very much, Fefonz!
    Storm Nordwind realises he has not done this for a while. It took the entire 2 minutes before I just started to engage wih BS, start to realise the no-separation, start to feel the complete and awesome power, only to come down again! :-/ But the top of my head still feels as though it's lifted off! :)
    Solobill Laville: :->
    Pema Pera: :-)

    When I first did this in July 2008, it had taken me a little while to engage with the practice. (My first day's relatively unsuccessful attempt is here: http://stormerne.blogspot.com/2008/07/seeing-as-being.html). But when I tried again the next day and the days after that, I seemed to 'succeed', and the result was, for me, thoroughly transforming. (Step forward in the blog to newer posts called Seeing as Being 2/3/4/5/6). So taking two whole minutes in our session today before getting back into the practice seems entirely reasonable!!

    Mick gave his impressions in detail, while Neela, who had disappeared previously, rejoined us and arabella arrived.

    Wol Euler: I found it tremendously calming, I could have aced Stim's breath-counting exercise :)
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Wol Euler: it was very easy to get into not-me looking and not judging. I'm not sure why...
    Solobill Laville: (brb)
    Fefonz Quan still not sure it was very different from PaB for me.
    Pema Pera: Does anybody else like to report what happened to them?
    Fefonz Quan: yet maybe, the notion of "something else" (=being" watching makes it easier to detach the I
    Mickorod Renard: I didnt feel like I achieved anything,,i am still struggling arguing with notions of my imagination doin it all
    Pema Pera: but what actually happened, Mick?
    Pema Pera: can you describe it in a few words?
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I felt like I was able to see myself,,although the rest of the observable wasnt all that focused
    Mickorod Renard: and it seemed translucent
    Mickorod Renard: but the chilling out was nice
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Pema Pera: Anyone else who would like to say something?
    Pema Pera: Doesn't have to be profound in any way :)
    Mickorod Renard: I guess another thing was
    Mickorod Renard: that usually I am aware of an origin of where my view is comming from,,like it tunnels out,,but then in second method,,my head seemed to vanish
    Pema Pera: yes, very nice, Mick!
    Pema Pera: And Wol, did you start writing something too?
    Wol Euler: yes, but I didn't want to interrupt Mick
    Fefonz Quan just thought about the "man with no head" that someone arote a few years ago, before o so Mick's remark1
    Fefonz Quan: !
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Pema Pera: yes, same sense, Fef!
    Mickorod Renard: dont know if that was very clear..my report
    Pema Pera: Yes, all of your reports were clear

    Now Wol continued an earlier remark told us of an important impression. Meanwhile, Corvi quietly left us.

    Wol Euler: I have been ignoroing a problem for some 18 months now, which is growing larger and uglier as I ignore it. The longer I leave it, the less able to deal with it I feel.
    Mickorod Renard: lol,,whats that?
    Wol Euler: it seems quite hopeless sometimes, when I am being me. Just don't know where to start, cannot see any point where I might grasp it in order to begin.
    Wol Euler: Not-me looked at it and saw clearly how I might begin to fix it.
    Wol Euler: calmly and without any of the angst and fear and frustration that "I" feel when thinking about it.
    Wol Euler: Maybe I can do this now.
    Fefonz Quan: remarkable, thanks for sharing that wol
    Wol Euler smiles
    Pema Pera: that's really wonderful, Wol, and thank you so much for sharing that with us
    Pema Pera: must not be easy to talk about . . .

    Pema summarised a point of commonality between us. Tarmel joined us as he did. Pema kindly summaried what we'd been up to.

    Pema Pera: Isn't it amazing how a simple and rather short shift of vantage point can make all the difference?
    Wol Euler nods
    Pema Pera: especially the shift to "no vantage point" :-)
    Fefonz Quan: subvantage instead of advantage
    Pema Pera: For those entering later, we have been exploring YSBS here, as a group in real time: first "you seeing" in the normal way; then "Being seeing", i.e. letting Being see, rather than you
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,trying to sort something with tools of tradition,,like control and skill,,sometimes lead to more resistance

    I commented on Pema's earlier remark.

    Storm Nordwind: Interesting that no vantage point. Or somehow "every" vantage point. Seems to become dimensionless and yet include or rather be everything.
    Pema Pera: yes!
    Pema Pera: I have the following image coming to mind, as a way to put in context what has happened. Imagine that we all have been sitting studying hard, bent over our desk, for many hours . . . . . .
    Fefonz Quan: zeroth point of view
    Pema Pera: then if we would briefly try to stretch our back, and report about that, what would happen?
    Pema Pera: One person would lift his/her left arm
    Pema Pera: another a right arm
    Pema Pera: another would fold arms behind the back
    Pema Pera: and so on
    Pema Pera: but the interesting thing is: everyone in their own way would manage to get out of the cramp of the narrow focus
    Pema Pera: Similarly here:
    Pema Pera: the details of the reports are less important than the fact that we have all reported some form of opening up
    Mickorod Renard: me too?
    Pema Pera: and especially Wol's report was a really big step
    Wol Euler: back
    Pema Pera: oh yes, Mick, you talked about transparentising, and let me see . . . .
    Pema Pera: ah, your head seemed to vanish Mick
    Pema Pera: that's beautiful -- normally we live in our head
    Pema Pera: so that's a big step :-)
    Mickorod Renard: cool,,ty
    Solobill Laville: :)

    Mick had independently echoed my oft-said off-hand comment about the top of my head lifting off! Then Neela added her thoughts, reminded by Wol's story.

    Pema Pera: and also you said, Mick "the chilling out was nice"
    Pema Pera: so there you go: three aspects of opening up!
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,maybe that the good company
    Pema Pera: that helps, for sure!
    Neela Blaisdale: Wol's story reminded me of something I was thinking about recently. There are some changes that may be happening in my life which would mean a move anad great uncertainty for me professionally
    Neela Blaisdale: I've been struggling with this, feeling agitated because I don't know what the future will bring and felt very " out of control"
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I can relate to you on that Neela
    Neela Blaisdale: Then I realized that the uncertainty might actually give me a great deal of freedom, and I thought " maybe instaead of struggling against it, I should just embrace the uncertainty and it's possibilities
    Neela Blaisdale: And then felt much calmer about all these matters
    arabella Ella: that sounds so lovely Neela!
    Wol Euler nods
    Solobill Laville: :)

    Fefonz wanted to check something as a wise precaution, and make a final clarification.

    Fefonz Quan: i do have small concern about that exercise, i felt detached from body like some numbness to what's going on. i tend to not consider it a good thing.
    Mickorod Renard: but in the past my work was very ,,unknown,,and I used to get very nervous of the unexpected..I tried the total control method,,but inevitably you jave to just drop all your fears and trust
    Fefonz Quan: (soory, didn't mean to interupt)
    Mickorod Renard: sorry,,I jumped in,,my fault
    Neela Blaisdale: np
    Pema Pera: that's wonderful, Neela, I feel touched hearing all that !
    Neela Blaisdale: the common thread being dropping our framework
    Storm Nordwind: Fefonz, I find that a deliberate reengaging with this world helps, like surfing the wave of experience back into the shore
    Pema Pera: and Fonz, yes, whenever you do something different, it may be a bit disorienting at first. That is normal (as Stim would say :-). Just don't force yourself. Soon it will become very natural
    arabella Ella: or deliberately adopting another framework or point of view Neela?
    Neela Blaisdale: yes as in seeing as Being instead of you seeing
    arabella Ella: exactly
    Neela Blaisdale: Different frameworks allow different possibilities;)
    Pema Pera: Yes, the switch to letting Being see implies dropping all frameworks
    Fefonz Quan: Just to make it clear - did we just practiced BS or YSBS?
    Mickorod Renard: I always think that if u force something,,it will inevitably be met with an opposing one
    Pema Pera: in contrast, an exploration like subject/object reversal is switching to a different framework
    arabella Ella: interesting point Pema
    Pema Pera: Fonz, we did two minutes YS and then two minutes BS, remember?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, just wanted to be clear on the terms here. so is the YSBS the next step?
    Pema Pera: And BS I would not bring up in a phenomenology workshop
    Pema Pera: No, Fefonz, sorry, YSBS means first do YS then do BS and notice the difference
    Pema Pera: as Wol and Neela noticed so clearly !!!
    Fefonz Quan: though it felt a little pheno to me
    Pema Pera: yes, but Being is not a phenomenon
    Pema Pera: so off limits in phenomenology :-)
    Fefonz Quan: ah, ok, it is good we pont that out!

    Time to wind up.

    Storm Nordwind points to the clock. "Talking of workshops, It is just 3 minutes before Stim's workshop is due to start in the Kira Cafe."
    Pema Pera: yup, thanks Storm!
    Pema Pera: Unfortunately, I can't join you -- again RL engagements at this time

    We had discussed and practised YSBS but had had no time to contnue to Fefonz's queries on ESBS. I invited our "Dialoguing Duo" to return.

    Storm Nordwind: Would you both be so kind as to continue again next week?
    Pema Pera: Sure, of course, Storm!
    Pema Pera: Thank you all so much for this inspiring hour!
    Wol Euler: thank you all, I must go too.
    Neela Blaisdale: Goodbye everyone
    Tarmel Udimo: Yes I am off to Stim's workshop
    Storm Nordwind: Thank you Pema and Fefonz for organising it
    Solobill Laville: ty, all :)
    arabella Ella: thank you Pema
    Mickorod Renard: Thankyou Pema,,and everyone else too..lovely
    Fefonz Quan hums: Y-S-B-S tatatatatatam, Y-S-B-S :)
    Tarmel Udimo: this is the first time I have been able to attend
    Pema Pera: hehehe
    arabella Ella: and thanks Fefonz
    Fefonz Quan: thanks all :)
    Storm Nordwind: Off to the Cafe... :)
    Pema Pera: Glad you could make it, Tarmel!
    Tarmel Udimo: bye
    Wol Euler: bye everyone, take care.
    Pema Pera: it must be very late for you though
    Pema Pera: or very early?
    Pema Pera: ah, early
    Tarmel Udimo: early

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