2009.03.19 13:00 - Dialogue Fefonz-Pema #3: ESBS

    Table of contents
    No headers

    The guardian for this session was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.

    Prior to the start, Adelene had placed a prototype scribble board in the pavilion.

    As the previous two weeks in this series of dialogues between Fefonz and Pema, the first part of the session was simply everyone turning up and saying "Hi!". (I have taken the liberty, just for these sessions, to edit out the greetings.) Like last week, but not the previous week, Pema introduces a short workshop into this dialogue.

    Storm Nordwind: So for the last two weeks we have had Pema and Fefonz in dialogue
    Storm Nordwind: And it has been very interesting
    Storm Nordwind: The first week they talked about Being
    Storm Nordwind: The second week they talked about YSBS...
    Storm Nordwind: You Seeing Being Seeing
    Storm Nordwind: So I wonder if this week they would like to continue onwards
    Pema Pera: we could move to ESBS ?
    Fefonz Quan: with pleasure
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps Fefonz has many questions! :)
    Storm Nordwind: Gentlemen, the floor is yours!

    Fefonz does indeed begin with a question.

    Fefonz Quan: Well, first i wanted just to suggest a notion - YSBS should be YS/BS or YS-BS to my opinion, in order to
    Fefonz Quan: clarify those are two different stages
    Pema Pera: fine with me
    Fefonz Quan: Now, ESBS - if i recall it is Enlightened seen being seen - is it again two experiments?
    Fefonz Quan: or is it an extension of BS?

    Pema's answer brings a few raised eyebrows!

    Pema Pera: yes
    Pema Pera: but mind you, in BDSM we don't write BD-SM
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: and there are many other examples :)
    Storm Nordwind laughs
    Pema Pera: but with or without - we know what you mean
    Pema Pera: we could add a +
    Fefonz Quan: i thought you can practice BD and SM in parallel, but never mind ;-)
    Storm Nordwind coughs
    Pema Pera: mmmm, getting tricky
    Pema Pera: BDBS . . .
    Pema Pera: but we don't have much discipline in PaB . . . .
    Fefonz Quan: Being Dreams Being Seen
    Pema Pera: !
    Korii Tiger: Hiii ^.^
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: very nice!

    The gentle Adams calls their bluff.

    Adams Rubble: please define BDSM
    Adams Rubble: oh
    Pema Pera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM
    Fefonz Quan: i think it is off topic, should we go back to my ESBS questions Pema?
    Pema Pera: yes
    Storm Nordwind gets the red pen ready for the chat log

    But I ended up not using the red pen! Meanwhile, back on topic, Fefonz starts to probe what ESBS is and repeats his earlier question. Pema replies and finishes by suggesting a practical experiment.

    Fefonz Quan: [13:07] Fefonz Quan: Now, ESBS - if i recall it is Enlightened seen being seen - is it again two experiments? [13:08] Fefonz Quan: or is it an extension of BS
    Pema Pera: yes, Enlightened you Seeing and then Being Seeing
    Pema Pera: now let me say a few words about the ES part
    Pema Pera: generally people consider that the goal of a long meditation practice is to reach enlightenment
    Pema Pera: and by itself that can be a very noble endeavor
    Pema Pera: at the same time, when seen too literal, as the you that you think you are somehow getting improved to the stage of becoming enlightened, it can also be a kind of trap
    Pema Pera: since what becomes enlightened or realized is not the "self" not the "ego"
    Pema Pera: rather what opens up is what already IS, and that cannot be "reached"
    Pema Pera: so in order to highlight the difference, not so much in word but in (getting a glimpse of) experience, we can spend a couple minutes trying to see the world around us the way we (imagine that we) would see it if we were enlightened
    Pema Pera: and then we can spend a couple minutes trying to let Being see.

    After this brief introduction, Pema asks for questions so far. Fefonz obliges!

    Pema Pera: We can try that, but before doing so, are there any questions about these notions?
    Fefonz Quan: yes
    Storm Nordwind: My questions came from the labels we use for these. But that can wait till after.
    Fefonz Quan: just by saying enlightened seeing, we say nothing in a way. enlightened is a too broad word to be used simply as instruction here
    Pema Pera: "enlightened you seeing", Fefonz
    Pema Pera: well, let me be more concrete
    Fefonz Quan: ah EYS/BS, so the BS part is like before?
    Pema Pera: For the ES part, imagine that you go the same stages of practice and insight as the Buddha did, or whoever you would like to take from your favorite spiritual tradition
    Pema Pera: Then try to imagine how you would see the world
    Pema Pera: Don't worry too much about it, just try and see what happens
    Pema Pera: After that, two minutes of letting Being see
    Pema Pera: is that concrete enough, Fef?
    Fefonz Quan: i thought for the buddha Being seeing and buddha seeing are the same
    Pema Pera: aha, well, let's see what happens, when we try
    Storm Nordwind: That's an interesting point Fef; best to try and see
    Pema Pera: there may be differences . . .
    Pema Pera: Are there any questions about how to do this?
    Pema Pera: Don't try to do it perfectly; we can just get started
    Pema Pera: and try and do it several times
    Pema Pera: we have to begin somewhere
    Fefonz Quan: so starting with eS?
    Pema Pera: Yes, starting with "Enlightened you seeing" or "fully realized you seeing"
    Pema Pera: in other words, imagine that you have gone through lifetimes of practice, or whatever it takes, and here you are, fully realized, and how would you look at the world, for the next two minutes.
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Pema Pera: Let's get started! I'll type again here after two minutes. Here we go!

    So we go straight into Pema's practical exercise of ESBS, starting with 2 minutes of ES...

    Pema Pera: Two minute mark -- now we will right away do the second half of the exploration: Being Seeing: spend two minutes just letting Being see, whatever that means for you, without trying to analyze or figure it out. Just let Being see for 2 minutes.
    Mickorod Renard: ok

    ...and continuing with 2 minutes of BS, after which Pema invites people to share their experiences.

    Pema Pera: Welcome back to normal :)
    Pema Pera: Does anyone like to describe what happened?

    Mick describes his experience

    Mickorod Renard: I feel a bit novice..but to me it felt like the 2 had similarities except the second less personified
    Fefonz Quan: me more novice, totally failed the first one...
    Mickorod Renard: i felt like I was without self
    Mickorod Renard: as in,,wasn't questioning myself
    Mickorod Renard: both felt very refreshing
    Mickorod Renard: a sort of loosing of stress,,as i had a feeling of knowing all
    Storm Nordwind: In both states Mick?
    Mickorod Renard: more so the first
    Storm Nordwind nods
    Mickorod Renard: I don't think I got well into the second
    Storm Nordwind managed to do both. Reminded him of his August blog entries! http://tinyurl.com/cb9sfr
    Mickorod Renard: self consciousness left me

    Fefonz describes his experience

    Pema Pera: Would anybody else like to share something? Don't feel you have to be eloquent -- just a few words, a taste, a hint . . . .
    Fefonz Quan: the first one didn't work at all for me,
    Pema Pera: how so, Fef?
    Fefonz Quan: to much trying to imagine what is like to be enlightened
    Fefonz Quan: the second one was much nicer though
    Fefonz Quan: seeing the self as visual/feeling/sound appearances
    Fefonz Quan: among other appearances,
    Fefonz Quan: not belonging to the one that see]

    Myna describes her experience

    Myna Maven: I am surrounded by activity here and having to interact so I just watched and listened without personal judgment while enjoying everything in its place as it is at this time.
    Pema Pera: which one was that, Myna, ES or BS?
    Wol Euler: that sounds pretty close to enlightenment, Myna :)
    Myna Maven: More so the ES.
    Myna Maven: But in the BS I had people asking me questions.
    Myna Maven: So I can't really say. It did feel somewhat flatter.
    Myna Maven: Yes, BS did feel flatter.
    Mickorod Renard: I felt comfortable with the first one
    Storm Nordwind nods to Mick

    I comment on how it seems possible to combine at least one of these experiences with everyday activity.

    Storm Nordwind: Myna, in my experience, ES allows you to completely act in the real world at the same time whereas BS does not
    Pema Pera: that is a very interesting way to look at it, Storm -- the descriptions are so open that each of us can interpret it in different ways
    Pema Pera: and it is fascinating to compare them
    Korii Tiger: what is ES?
    Storm Nordwind: There's an important point in this Pema...
    Pema Pera: Enlightened version of you seeing, Korii
    Storm Nordwind waits for Pema to finish explaining
    Korii Tiger: thank you Pema
    Pema Pera: looking at the world while imagining how it would be if you would be fully realized, whatever that would mean for you
    Pema Pera: yes, Storm?
    Pema Pera: (and BS is then Being Seeing, Korii)
    Korii Tiger: (knows ;))
    Pema Pera: (hence first ES then BS, to compare)
    Pema Pera: :)
    Korii Tiger: (nod)
    Storm Nordwind: Being Seeing is a total experience. It is a kind of enlightenment, but...
    Fefonz Quan: yes, i tried to feel compassionate and failed ;-)
    Storm Nordwind: but I have found that it seems not to be the final stage
    Storm Nordwind: It seems to me
    Storm Nordwind: that ES is a step further
    Storm Nordwind: If you look at it from Mahayana point of view
    Pema Pera: yes
    Fefonz Quan: YES - Your Enlightened Seeing
    Storm Nordwind: It allows you to apply BS in the world
    Pema Pera: :)
    Pema Pera has to laugh at the acronyms
    Pema Pera: YES to BS
    Myna Maven: :)
    Storm Nordwind: I feel a pure clarity of purpose when doing ES
    Fefonz Quan: YES we can BS
    Storm Nordwind: And I feel that Being Seing is a resource that I can draw on at a moment's notice
    Storm Nordwind: But to act in the world and help others, I stay in ES

    More impressions from Mick and Fefonz. I find these fascinating.

    Mickorod Renard: I wrote something on feeling enlightened today,,and posted it on Phenomenology wiki
    Fefonz Quan: i found the BS more radical, the ES felt like acting
    Storm Nordwind: acting in what way Fef? Play acting?
    Fefonz Quan: yes, acting another persona
    Mickorod Renard: maybe that was why I felt so comfy with ES
    Fefonz Quan: it felt fake
    Storm Nordwind: Perhaps Mick. It really feels like my real home doing ES
    Storm Nordwind: My experience Fef, for what it's worth...
    Storm Nordwind: is that you need to really get into Being Seeing before you go to ES
    Fefonz Quan: well, some vajrayanas practice that a lot storm, maybe that helps you
    Storm Nordwind: I expect so Fef! :)
    Mickorod Renard: it was funny for me in that ES gave me a feeling of serene confidence
    Storm Nordwind: Yes Mick! :)
    Mickorod Renard: wish I cud have it always
    Fefonz Quan: now is always mick :)
    Mickorod Renard: grin
    Storm Nordwind smiles

    Fefonz takes up my own impression with Pema. Of course I'd said it was just my experience, and did not pretend it was absolute truth. Meanwhile Korii injects a little colourful levity into proceedings!

    Fefonz Quan: Pema, following storms before last message - do you feel that ES is a stage after BS (like more advanced)?
    Pema Pera: well, first of all, the descriptions of the explorations are rather minimal so far, just a few sentences, so we are likely to do different things with them, Fefonz --- in fact we are virtually guaranteed (no pun intended) to do quite different things
    Pema Pera: so it is hard for me to rank any of the two-letter words in that sense
    Pema Pera: I can describe how I did the exploration
    Fefonz Quan: (BTW - in both of them yellow and purple points floated before me, is it just me? ;-))
    Pema Pera: :-)
    Mickorod Renard: yes please Pema
    Storm Nordwind: It's the absinthe Fef maybe? :)
    Wol Euler: you must be hyperventilating
    Fefonz Quan knows only what abs(int) means ;-)
    Storm Nordwind remembers that "Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder"
    Wol Euler chuckles
    Mickorod Renard: from my avi it looks like its coming from behind you Fef
    Mickorod Renard: worryingly

    Pema describes his own experience with ES.

    Pema Pera: When I did ES, I was trying to imagine how it would be to be a Buddha, or similar realized being in other traditions, but in doing so there was still a sense of self -- an enlightened or realized self, but still a self
    Adelene Dawner is going to go with "arises perfectly" there, *shrug* ^.^
    Pema Pera: whereas with BS it was very different, letting Being see meant me stepping fully out of the way, it is hard to put into words, very hard . . . . it felt more profoundly different
    Fefonz Quan: yes, for me also BS felt much selfless.
    Pema Pera: There is also the background notion for me that "reaching enlightenment" is not possible
    Pema Pera: seeing our original enlightenment is possible
    Squee: If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
    Fefonz Quan: ES was like playing "i am the king of the world" (which sounded like totally BS for me if i may say )
    Storm Nordwind: As in no sense of self rather than not selfish?
    Pema Pera: well, that's getting very subtle Storm
    Pema Pera: in general, all of us make the mistake, either obviously or in a subtle way -- and I am sure I am still making that mistake myself -- to imagine that there is some kind of goal, something to reach, something waiting to be obtained . . . . .
    Pema Pera: . . . and going from ES to BS helps me to drop that mistake more and more

    This is interesting. Perhaps it is a difference in traditions. In my tradition, for example, aspiration is important because it will affect my motivation, why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm also a lazy person, but I understand that attainment depends on effort, and effort depends on aspiration.

    Meanwhile Mick brought up a topic that is much misunderstood and very difficult to explain.

    Mickorod Renard: I did feel inflated ego in ES,,but enjoyed it non the less
    Storm Nordwind: That's OK Mick in it's place. It's called Divine Pride and is used deliberately in stages of some Buddhist practices
    Mickorod Renard: ok,,thanks storm
    Fefonz Quan: Storm, what's the difference between "i'm proud of my enlightenment" and "i'm proud of my new Porsche"?
    Storm Nordwind: The first does not exist :)
    Mickorod Renard: temptation?
    Storm Nordwind: No
    Fefonz Quan: well i was following your divine pride there
    Adelene Dawner: Being enlightened means understanding that there's no real point in having pride in either of those :)
    Fefonz Quan: Sure ade, that was my point :)
    Storm Nordwind: The pride of which I speak is deliberately engendered when you see yourself as a Buddha
    Storm Nordwind: It doesn't carry the mundane baggage with it
    Storm Nordwind: It has a particular term in Buddhism...
    Storm Nordwind: it's called "Bringing the result into the Path"
    Storm Nordwind: After you do that you deliberately dispense with it :)
    Fefonz Quan: yes i understand Storm, though that kind of practice sound to like a good way to the dark side
    Fefonz Quan: but i don't really know those things

    Divine pride is indeed a tricky subject. For example, I don't believe that while doing ES that I am suddenly enlightened. Instead, I feel that "Storm" disappears into Being, and I then change the basis of imputation for my "I", imputing my "I" onto an enlightened being. This change of imputation can be a beneficial exercise because I normally impute my "I" onto a me that is full of care and delusions! This therefore gives me a refreshing change of perspective.

    However, although this is called by some "meditating on divine pride", I certainly don't say to others that I am enlightened, or I'm this or that particular enlightened being, as this would be clearly inappropriate behaviour in normal society. People will still see me as Storm and not as an enlightened being, and I know also myself that I'm not! It's just an inner exploration, and it's important I continue to engage in my daily activities and communicate with others as normal.

    But I didn't explain all this at the time. Sometimes one feels more lucid than at others!

    Pema Pera: Well, we have five more minutes to go
    Mickorod Renard: well,,I had a good addressing with pride some time ago..its a funny subject
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Pema Pera: Perhaps we should continue this ES BS discussion next week, since clearly there are different interpretations that have come up
    Pema Pera: but in a few minutes Stim's workshop will start
    Storm Nordwind: Great idea
    Mickorod Renard: yea
    Wol Euler nods

    As I mentioned at the start, Adelene had placed a prototype scribble board in the pavilion. We comment on the amazing drawings on it and Pema gently requests that she take it with her when she leaves!

    Pema Pera: Great flying unicorn arising, Adelene :-)
    Mickorod Renard: needs to practice his heavy breathing technique
    Adelene Dawner: Korii's drawing :)
    Pema Pera: Can I get a copy of the blackboard? It will be very handy for the Kira Cafe
    ArchKaine Hax: I have a PaB Listener?
    Pema Pera: ah, well, great flying unicorn, Korii :-)
    Adelene Dawner: It's still in progress - I'll give you a copy when I'm happier with it. :)
    Myna Maven: Fun blackboard.
    Wol Euler: you do, arch
    Pema Pera: okay, fine, thank you Adelene!
    Wol Euler: well you should ...
    ArchKaine Hax: hmm, don't recall gettingone
    Pema Pera: And for now, it would be nice to carry it with you after the session is over, if you don't mind
    Wol Euler: they're automatic and sneaky
    ArchKaine Hax: hmm
    Pema Pera: (to Adelene)
    Adelene Dawner: hmmm, Pema?
    Pema Pera: I mean not to leave it here
    Pema Pera: fun as it may be :-)
    Adelene Dawner: ah, ok
    Adelene Dawner: 'carry with' is not hte same as 'delete this copy' - the latter makes sense ^.^
    Pema Pera: okay :-)

    I wrap up so that we can go to Stim's workshop and I invite Fefonz and Pema to continue next week.

    Storm Nordwind: Well thank you Fefonz and Pema for another great session
    Pema Pera: thank you all for coming here and working together!
    Storm Nordwind: Please can we have your talents here again next week?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,thankyou all
    Fefonz Quan: Yes thanks all for coming
    Adams Rubble: Thank you Pema and Fefonz :)
    Wol Euler: bye myna, bye pema, take care
    Pema Pera: fine with me, as long as others keep showing their talents :-)
    Myna Maven: Thank you guys. I'm running. Got political science to work on here. See ou later.
    Fefonz Quan: Bye Mena
    Adams Rubble: bye all :)
    Myna Maven: Bye all.
    Wol Euler: bye arch
    Mickorod Renard: bye
    Fefonz Quan: bye adams, mick
    Wol Euler: bye adams, mick, everyone else.
    Pema Pera: bye all !

    Tag page (Edit tags)
    You must login to post a comment.
    Powered by MindTouch Core