The guardian for this session was Storm Nordwind. The comments are Storm's.
Prior to the start, Adelene had placed a prototype scribble board in the pavilion.
As the previous two weeks in this series of dialogues between Fefonz
and Pema, the first part of the session was simply everyone turning up
and saying "Hi!". (I have taken the liberty, just for these sessions,
to edit out the greetings.) Like last week, but not the previous week,
Pema introduces a short workshop into this dialogue.
Storm Nordwind: So for the last two weeks we have had Pema and Fefonz in dialogue
Storm Nordwind: And it has been very interesting
Storm Nordwind: The first week they talked about Being
Storm Nordwind: The second week they talked about YSBS...
Storm Nordwind: You Seeing Being Seeing
Storm Nordwind: So I wonder if this week they would like to continue onwards
Pema Pera: we could move to ESBS ?
Fefonz Quan: with pleasure
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps Fefonz has many questions! :)
Storm Nordwind: Gentlemen, the floor is yours!
Fefonz does indeed begin with a question.
Fefonz Quan: Well, first i wanted just to suggest a notion - YSBS should be YS/BS or YS-BS to my opinion, in order to
Fefonz Quan: clarify those are two different stages
Pema Pera: fine with me
Fefonz Quan: Now, ESBS - if i recall it is Enlightened seen being seen - is it again two experiments?
Fefonz Quan: or is it an extension of BS?
Pema's answer brings a few raised eyebrows!
Pema Pera: yes
Pema Pera: but mind you, in BDSM we don't write BD-SM
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: and there are many other examples :)
Storm Nordwind laughs
Pema Pera: but with or without - we know what you mean
Pema Pera: we could add a +
Fefonz Quan: i thought you can practice BD and SM in parallel, but never mind ;-)
Storm Nordwind coughs
Pema Pera: mmmm, getting tricky
Pema Pera: BDBS . . .
Pema Pera: but we don't have much discipline in PaB . . . .
Fefonz Quan: Being Dreams Being Seen
Pema Pera: !
Korii Tiger: Hiii ^.^
Wol Euler: :)
Pema Pera: very nice!
The gentle Adams calls their bluff.
Adams Rubble: please define BDSM
Adams Rubble: oh
Pema Pera: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BDSM
Fefonz Quan: i think it is off topic, should we go back to my ESBS questions Pema?
Pema Pera: yes
Storm Nordwind gets the red pen ready for the chat log
But I ended up not using the red pen! Meanwhile, back on topic, Fefonz starts to
probe what ESBS is and repeats his earlier question. Pema replies and
finishes by suggesting a practical experiment.
Fefonz Quan: [13:07] Fefonz Quan: Now, ESBS - if i recall it is Enlightened seen being seen - is it again two experiments? [13:08] Fefonz Quan: or is it an extension of BS
Pema Pera: yes, Enlightened you Seeing and then Being Seeing
Pema Pera: now let me say a few words about the ES part
Pema Pera: generally people consider that the goal of a long meditation practice is to reach enlightenment
Pema Pera: and by itself that can be a very noble endeavor
Pema Pera: at the same time, when seen too literal, as the you that you think you are somehow getting improved to the stage of becoming enlightened, it can also be a kind of trap
Pema Pera: since what becomes enlightened or realized is not the "self" not the "ego"
Pema Pera: rather what opens up is what already IS, and that cannot be "reached"
Pema Pera: so in order to highlight the difference, not so much in word but in (getting a glimpse of) experience, we can spend a couple minutes trying to see the world around us the way we (imagine that we) would see it if we were enlightened
Pema Pera: and then we can spend a couple minutes trying to let Being see.
After this brief introduction, Pema asks for questions so far. Fefonz obliges!
Pema Pera: We can try that, but before doing so, are there any questions about these notions?
Fefonz Quan: yes
Storm Nordwind: My questions came from the labels we use for these. But that can wait till after.
Fefonz Quan: just by saying enlightened seeing, we say nothing in a way. enlightened is a too broad word to be used simply as instruction here
Pema Pera: "enlightened you seeing", Fefonz
Pema Pera: well, let me be more concrete
Fefonz Quan: ah EYS/BS, so the BS part is like before?
Pema Pera: For the ES part, imagine that you go the same stages of practice and insight as the Buddha did, or whoever you would like to take from your favorite spiritual tradition
Pema Pera: Then try to imagine how you would see the world
Pema Pera: Don't worry too much about it, just try and see what happens
Pema Pera: After that, two minutes of letting Being see
Pema Pera: is that concrete enough, Fef?
Fefonz Quan: i thought for the buddha Being seeing and buddha seeing are the same
Pema Pera: aha, well, let's see what happens, when we try
Storm Nordwind: That's an interesting point Fef; best to try and see
Pema Pera: there may be differences . . .
Pema Pera: Are there any questions about how to do this?
Pema Pera: Don't try to do it perfectly; we can just get started
Pema Pera: and try and do it several times
Pema Pera: we have to begin somewhere
Fefonz Quan: so starting with eS?
Pema Pera: Yes, starting with "Enlightened you seeing" or "fully realized you seeing"
Pema Pera: in other words, imagine that you have gone through lifetimes of practice, or whatever it takes, and here you are, fully realized, and how would you look at the world, for the next two minutes.
Mickorod Renard: ok
Pema Pera: Let's get started! I'll type again here after two minutes. Here we go!
So we go straight into Pema's practical exercise of ESBS, starting with 2 minutes of ES...
Pema Pera: Two minute mark -- now we will right away do the second half of the exploration: Being Seeing: spend two minutes just letting Being see, whatever that means for you, without trying to analyze or figure it out. Just let Being see for 2 minutes.
Mickorod Renard: ok
...and continuing with 2 minutes of BS, after which Pema invites people to share their experiences.
Pema Pera: Welcome back to normal :)
Pema Pera: Does anyone like to describe what happened?
Mick describes his experience
Mickorod Renard: I feel a bit novice..but to me it felt like the 2 had similarities except the second less personified
Fefonz Quan: me more novice, totally failed the first one...
Mickorod Renard: i felt like I was without self
Mickorod Renard: as in,,wasn't questioning myself
Mickorod Renard: both felt very refreshing
Mickorod Renard: a sort of loosing of stress,,as i had a feeling of knowing all
Storm Nordwind: In both states Mick?
Mickorod Renard: more so the first
Storm Nordwind nods
Mickorod Renard: I don't think I got well into the second
Storm Nordwind managed to do both. Reminded him of his August blog entries! http://tinyurl.com/cb9sfr
Mickorod Renard: self consciousness left me
Fefonz describes his experience
Pema Pera: Would anybody else like to share something? Don't feel you have to be eloquent -- just a few words, a taste, a hint . . . .
Fefonz Quan: the first one didn't work at all for me,
Pema Pera: how so, Fef?
Fefonz Quan: to much trying to imagine what is like to be enlightened
Fefonz Quan: the second one was much nicer though
Fefonz Quan: seeing the self as visual/feeling/sound appearances
Fefonz Quan: among other appearances,
Fefonz Quan: not belonging to the one that see]
Myna describes her experience
Myna Maven: I am surrounded by activity here and having to interact so I just watched and listened without personal judgment while enjoying everything in its place as it is at this time.
Pema Pera: which one was that, Myna, ES or BS?
Wol Euler: that sounds pretty close to enlightenment, Myna :)
Myna Maven: More so the ES.
Myna Maven: But in the BS I had people asking me questions.
Myna Maven: So I can't really say. It did feel somewhat flatter.
Myna Maven: Yes, BS did feel flatter.
Mickorod Renard: I felt comfortable with the first one
Storm Nordwind nods to Mick
I comment on how it seems possible to combine at least one of these experiences with everyday activity.
Storm Nordwind: Myna, in my experience, ES allows you to completely act in the real world at the same time whereas BS does not
Pema Pera: that is a very interesting way to look at it, Storm -- the descriptions are so open that each of us can interpret it in different ways
Pema Pera: and it is fascinating to compare them
Korii Tiger: what is ES?
Storm Nordwind: There's an important point in this Pema...
Pema Pera: Enlightened version of you seeing, Korii
Storm Nordwind waits for Pema to finish explaining
Korii Tiger: thank you Pema
Pema Pera: looking at the world while imagining how it would be if you would be fully realized, whatever that would mean for you
Pema Pera: yes, Storm?
Pema Pera: (and BS is then Being Seeing, Korii)
Korii Tiger: (knows ;))
Pema Pera: (hence first ES then BS, to compare)
Pema Pera: :)
Korii Tiger: (nod)
Storm Nordwind: Being Seeing is a total experience. It is a kind of enlightenment, but...
Fefonz Quan: yes, i tried to feel compassionate and failed ;-)
Storm Nordwind: but I have found that it seems not to be the final stage
Storm Nordwind: It seems to me
Storm Nordwind: that ES is a step further
Storm Nordwind: If you look at it from Mahayana point of view
Pema Pera: yes
Fefonz Quan: YES - Your Enlightened Seeing
Storm Nordwind: It allows you to apply BS in the world
Pema Pera: :)
Pema Pera has to laugh at the acronyms
Pema Pera: YES to BS
Myna Maven: :)
Storm Nordwind: I feel a pure clarity of purpose when doing ES
Fefonz Quan: YES we can BS
Storm Nordwind: And I feel that Being Seing is a resource that I can draw on at a moment's notice
Storm Nordwind: But to act in the world and help others, I stay in ES
More impressions from Mick and Fefonz. I find these fascinating.
Mickorod Renard: I wrote something on feeling enlightened today,,and posted it on Phenomenology wiki
Fefonz Quan: i found the BS more radical, the ES felt like acting
Storm Nordwind: acting in what way Fef? Play acting?
Fefonz Quan: yes, acting another persona
Mickorod Renard: maybe that was why I felt so comfy with ES
Fefonz Quan: it felt fake
Storm Nordwind: Perhaps Mick. It really feels like my real home doing ES
Storm Nordwind: My experience Fef, for what it's worth...
Storm Nordwind: is that you need to really get into Being Seeing before you go to ES
Fefonz Quan: well, some vajrayanas practice that a lot storm, maybe that helps you
Storm Nordwind: I expect so Fef! :)
Mickorod Renard: it was funny for me in that ES gave me a feeling of serene confidence
Storm Nordwind: Yes Mick! :)
Mickorod Renard: wish I cud have it always
Fefonz Quan: now is always mick :)
Mickorod Renard: grin
Storm Nordwind smiles
Fefonz takes up my own impression with Pema. Of course I'd said it was
just my experience, and did not pretend it was absolute truth.
Meanwhile Korii injects a little colourful levity into proceedings!
Fefonz Quan: Pema, following storms before last message - do you feel that ES is a stage after BS (like more advanced)?
Pema Pera: well, first of all, the descriptions of the explorations are rather minimal so far, just a few sentences, so we are likely to do different things with them, Fefonz --- in fact we are virtually guaranteed (no pun intended) to do quite different things
Pema Pera: so it is hard for me to rank any of the two-letter words in that sense
Pema Pera: I can describe how I did the exploration
Fefonz Quan: (BTW - in both of them yellow and purple points floated before me, is it just me? ;-))
Pema Pera: :-)
Mickorod Renard: yes please Pema
Storm Nordwind: It's the absinthe Fef maybe? :)
Wol Euler: you must be hyperventilating
Fefonz Quan knows only what abs(int) means ;-)
Storm Nordwind remembers that "Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder"
Wol Euler chuckles
Mickorod Renard: from my avi it looks like its coming from behind you Fef
Mickorod Renard: worryingly
Pema describes his own experience with ES.
Pema Pera: When I did ES, I was trying to imagine how it would be to be a Buddha, or similar realized being in other traditions, but in doing so there was still a sense of self -- an enlightened or realized self, but still a self
Adelene Dawner is going to go with "arises perfectly" there, *shrug* ^.^
Pema Pera: whereas with BS it was very different, letting Being see meant me stepping fully out of the way, it is hard to put into words, very hard . . . . it felt more profoundly different
Fefonz Quan: yes, for me also BS felt much selfless.
Pema Pera: There is also the background notion for me that "reaching enlightenment" is not possible
Pema Pera: seeing our original enlightenment is possible
Squee: If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough.
Fefonz Quan: ES was like playing "i am the king of the world" (which sounded like totally BS for me if i may say )
Storm Nordwind: As in no sense of self rather than not selfish?
Pema Pera: well, that's getting very subtle Storm
Pema Pera: in general, all of us make the mistake, either obviously or in a subtle way -- and I am sure I am still making that mistake myself -- to imagine that there is some kind of goal, something to reach, something waiting to be obtained . . . . .
Pema Pera: . . . and going from ES to BS helps me to drop that mistake more and more
This is interesting. Perhaps it is a difference in traditions. In my
tradition, for example, aspiration is important because it will affect
my motivation, why I'm doing what I'm doing. I'm also a lazy person,
but I understand that attainment depends on effort, and effort depends on
aspiration.
Meanwhile Mick brought up a topic that is much misunderstood and very difficult to explain.
Mickorod Renard: I did feel inflated ego in ES,,but enjoyed it non the less
Storm Nordwind: That's OK Mick in it's place. It's called Divine Pride and is used deliberately in stages of some Buddhist practices
Mickorod Renard: ok,,thanks storm
Fefonz Quan: Storm, what's the difference between "i'm proud of my enlightenment" and "i'm proud of my new Porsche"?
Storm Nordwind: The first does not exist :)
Mickorod Renard: temptation?
Storm Nordwind: No
Fefonz Quan: well i was following your divine pride there
Adelene Dawner: Being enlightened means understanding that there's no real point in having pride in either of those :)
Fefonz Quan: Sure ade, that was my point :)
Storm Nordwind: The pride of which I speak is deliberately engendered when you see yourself as a Buddha
Storm Nordwind: It doesn't carry the mundane baggage with it
Storm Nordwind: It has a particular term in Buddhism...
Storm Nordwind: it's called "Bringing the result into the Path"
Storm Nordwind: After you do that you deliberately dispense with it :)
Fefonz Quan: yes i understand Storm, though that kind of practice sound to like a good way to the dark side
Fefonz Quan: but i don't really know those things
Divine pride is indeed a tricky subject. For example, I don't believe
that while doing ES that I am suddenly enlightened. Instead, I feel
that "Storm" disappears into Being, and I then change the basis of
imputation for my "I", imputing my "I" onto an enlightened being. This
change of imputation can be a beneficial exercise because I normally
impute my "I" onto a me that is full of care and delusions! This
therefore gives me a refreshing change of perspective.
However, although this is called by some "meditating on divine pride",
I certainly don't say to others that I am enlightened, or I'm this or
that particular enlightened being, as this would be clearly
inappropriate behaviour in normal society. People will still see me as
Storm and not as an enlightened being, and I know also myself that I'm
not! It's just an inner exploration, and it's important I continue to engage in my
daily activities and communicate with others as normal.
But I didn't explain all this at the time. Sometimes one feels more lucid than at others!
Pema Pera: Well, we have five more minutes to go
Mickorod Renard: well,,I had a good addressing with pride some time ago..its a funny subject
Wol Euler: heheheh
Pema Pera: Perhaps we should continue this ES BS discussion next week, since clearly there are different interpretations that have come up
Pema Pera: but in a few minutes Stim's workshop will start
Storm Nordwind: Great idea
Mickorod Renard: yea
Wol Euler nods
As I mentioned at the start, Adelene had placed a prototype scribble
board in the pavilion. We comment on the amazing drawings on it and
Pema gently requests that she take it with her when she leaves!
Pema Pera: Great flying unicorn arising, Adelene :-)
Mickorod Renard: needs to practice his heavy breathing technique
Adelene Dawner: Korii's drawing :)
Pema Pera: Can I get a copy of the blackboard? It will be very handy for the Kira Cafe
ArchKaine Hax: I have a PaB Listener?
Pema Pera: ah, well, great flying unicorn, Korii :-)
Adelene Dawner: It's still in progress - I'll give you a copy when I'm happier with it. :)
Myna Maven: Fun blackboard.
Wol Euler: you do, arch
Pema Pera: okay, fine, thank you Adelene!
Wol Euler: well you should ...
ArchKaine Hax: hmm, don't recall gettingone
Pema Pera: And for now, it would be nice to carry it with you after the session is over, if you don't mind
Wol Euler: they're automatic and sneaky
ArchKaine Hax: hmm
Pema Pera: (to Adelene)
Adelene Dawner: hmmm, Pema?
Pema Pera: I mean not to leave it here
Pema Pera: fun as it may be :-)
Adelene Dawner: ah, ok
Adelene Dawner: 'carry with' is not hte same as 'delete this copy' - the latter makes sense ^.^
Pema Pera: okay :-)
I wrap up so that we can go to Stim's workshop and I invite Fefonz and Pema to continue next week.
Storm Nordwind: Well thank you Fefonz and Pema for another great session
Pema Pera: thank you all for coming here and working together!
Storm Nordwind: Please can we have your talents here again next week?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,thankyou all
Fefonz Quan: Yes thanks all for coming
Adams Rubble: Thank you Pema and Fefonz :)
Wol Euler: bye myna, bye pema, take care
Pema Pera: fine with me, as long as others keep showing their talents :-)
Myna Maven: Thank you guys. I'm running. Got political science to work on here. See ou later.
Fefonz Quan: Bye Mena
Adams Rubble: bye all :)
Myna Maven: Bye all.
Wol Euler: bye arch
Mickorod Renard: bye
Fefonz Quan: bye adams, mick
Wol Euler: bye adams, mick, everyone else.
Pema Pera: bye all !
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