2009.03.22 13:00 - Zeroth time, 3rd session

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Maxine Walden. The comments are by Maxine Walden.


    This report is virtually what the autorecord picked up, so it continues beyond my presence in the group.  If I have time to return and modify some of the dialog I will do so.  Otherwise, here is the full report. 


    Wol Euler: sunday 22 march, 1pm (nearly)
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Scath
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Mick:)
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya maxine
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Maxine
    Maxine Walden: hi, Mick, Scath
    Mickorod Renard: I am sorry that i say ur names with a small first letter but i have a faulty caps key
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Pema
    Scathach Rhiadra: :))
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pema, np Mic
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pema
    Mickorod Renard: I have to press it real hard
    Pema Pera: Hi Maxine, Mick, Scathach!
    Mickorod Renard: are you all having a nice day?
    Maxine Walden: yes, and you?
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, a good day, and you?
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,super thanks,,its mothers day here in uk
    Maxine Walden: could someone remind me how to claim the autorecord? I have double clicked below the fountain and get a circle
    Scathach Rhiadra: just single left-click
    Maxine Walden: thanks, I was below the fountain, not on it
    Scathach Rhiadra: ah:)
    Maxine Walden: got it, though, thanks, Scath
    Mickorod Renard: I must say how much I enjoy the play as being meetings and the kira cafe ones too
    Scathach Rhiadra: yes, we all do:)
    Maxine Walden: that's really nice to hear Mick. yes, agree, Scath, we all do
    Mickorod Renard: I am sorry I have missed the dream meetings lately
    Maxine Walden: Mick, there are so many things tugging at out sleeves, whenever you can make it is just fine. But I know what you mean
    Maxine Walden: about missing sessions, I feel the loss, like I was not here last week; tho did have a chance to glance at the log
    Maxine Walden: which Wol took
    Pema Pera: yes, I'm pleased too, Mick, with the rapid growth of Kira, and I'm not able to attend all the meetings either -- I guess no one is!
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I must remember to keep up to date by reading them too
    Pema Pera: Hi Pila!
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Pila
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Pila
    Maxine Walden: hi, Pila
    Pila Mulligan: greetings
    Pema Pera: I had a good time this afternoon, skating in Central Park in Manhattan
    Mickorod Renard: wow
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Maxine Walden: ah...
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Pema Pera: I hadn't done that in 20 years or so . . . .
    Maxine Walden: ice skating, I assume
    Mickorod Renard: Hiya Ade
    Pila Mulligan: did you ever do the race on the canals in the Netherlands
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Ade:)
    Adelene Dawner: Hiya ^.^
    Pema Pera: the human body is amazing, the way it remembers things . . . .
    Pila Mulligan: hi Ade
    Pema Pera: Hi Adelene!
    Pema Pera: ice skating, yes
    Maxine Walden: yes, Pema, muscle memory is amazing
    Pema Pera: and no races for me, just having fun
    Maxine Walden: hi, Ade
    Pema Pera: at first I could barely stand on my feet
    Maxine Walden: wobbly ankles
    Pema Pera: had to hold the railing
    Pema Pera: but in twenty minutes everything was fine again
    Pila Mulligan: hi Wol
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Wol
    Pema Pera: we talk about "memories" but memories of the body are indeed amazing
    Pema Pera: hi Wol!
    Wol Euler: hello all
    Mickorod Renard: I snowboard,,and every year on first acent on the lift I try in vain to recall how to do snowboarding,,in the end I just fling myself down hill and it just happens
    Pema Pera: exactly
    Pema Pera: our bodies know a lot more than we do :-)
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Maxine Walden: right, bodies have gotten wise over our ancestral past
    Adelene Dawner: :)
    Pema Pera wondering how many ancestors of him ever skated
    Scathach Rhiadra: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I guess the sub concious has a role to play too?
    Pema Pera: my butt had an important role to play too, when I fell (only one time)
    Maxine Walden: the unconscious may be the register for lots of 'memories' in one's life and over human history
    Mickorod Renard: grin,,I wear football goal keepers padded pants
    Pila Mulligan: remnds me of zen archery
    Maxine Walden: Pema, are we wishing to go back to the theme of zero time? Any 'homework' items from last week?
    Pema Pera: I don't think we decided upon specific homework
    Wol Euler: not that I remember
    Pema Pera: other than trying to be attentive to time
    Pema Pera: so, yes, let's return to timeless time
    Pema Pera: Maxine, would you like to give a brief intro?
    Maxine Walden: yes, I have been thinking a bit about the experience of time in different states of mind
    Maxine Walden: ah a general intro? Zero time, not the past, present, nor future (PPD) but being open to an experience of time which is not on those coordinates
    Maxine Walden: Just to mention what had come to mind: in sleep and dreaming we generally are totally out of touch with chronologic time.
    Pema Pera: Hi Solo!
    Solobill Laville: Hi, everyone! :)
    Maxine Walden: Wondering about this common experience as an example of zero time
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Solo
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Solo
    Wol Euler waves
    Pila Mulligan: hi Solo
    Maxine Walden: Hi, Solo, good to see you
    Solobill Laville: (You too, Maxine, don't mean to interrupt)
    Maxine Walden: also when our attention is deeply focussed, or in some creative endeavor, I think we lost touch with external time..perhaps another example
    Mickorod Renard: could it be defined as concious time and unconcious time?
    Maxine Walden: maybe so, Mick. For me, in the unconscious there is only NOW, even though there seems to be the memories of time, body memories, etc also located there
    Maxine Walden: ah, a clock. Ade, you brought that?
    Adelene Dawner: drew. The chalkboard works :)
    Wol Euler smiels
    Maxine Walden: wow
    Mickorod Renard: Hi Wol
    Adelene Dawner: But let's not get sidetracked :)
    Pila Mulligan: a creative endeavor
    Mickorod Renard: I was thinking if there was a link
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Pema Pera: Are you finished, Maxine, with your intro?
    Pema Pera: or do you want to continue?
    Mickorod Renard: for example,,when dreaming,,present is most relevent,,but dreams often tap memories
    Mickorod Renard: sorry maxine
    Maxine Walden: oh, yes, Pema, think so. I have a few other things I could say about time, but not exactly on the zeroth dimension
    Pema Pera: oh please, go ahead, Maxine!
    Maxine Walden: Just that different states of mind relate to time differently:
    Maxine Walden: for instance, when I am calm I can utilize the 'envelope of time' and relate to it so that I feel unhurried, enough time to do what I need to. Actually it is all an illustion because external time has not changed. But I relate to time as an envelope
    Maxine Walden: And when I am more rushed, I feel 'there is not enough' time to do X or Y. And yet, that too, really is more my inner state of mind, my inner perception of Time, a projection of my state of mind on the situation
    Maxine Walden: That's mostly what I had in mind as a start, Pema.
    Pema Pera: Perhaps I can give a quick intro too.
    Maxine Walden: yes, please
    Pema Pera: Most of what we have discussed so far concerns ways to play with time, without our normal framework, within our normal life and our normal view of the world and others and ourselves
    Pema Pera: and of course, that is where we have to start
    Pema Pera: that is where we find ourselves
    Pema Pera: and that world includes the possibility of doing science and exploring the unconscious and everything else, including coming here for PaB sessions
    Pema Pera: The great difficulty of talking about timeless time, or 0th time, is that it is something that is beyond the usual world picture . . . . and that is so hard to indicate . . ..
    Pema Pera: at the same time it is so totally different from anything we can put words on or point to
    Pema Pera: and at the same time it is also so mundane, since we're already living in it, living it
    Pema Pera: that paradox has to be seen through, not by words, but by, well, actual seeing . . . . .
    Pema Pera: so "timeless time" does not point to anything esoteric or special or whatever it is that we can try to strive for or reach or grasp
    Wol Euler: bob, take a seat, join us. I will give you an intro in IM so as not to disturb the group
    Pila Mulligan: what a name :)
    Pema Pera: and in fact, we don't have to give up anything at all
    Pema Pera: we don't have to deny the past or future, and we can keep using all theknowledge we have
    Pema Pera: yet, the switch to timeless time is more earth shaking than anything else
    Pema Pera: and yet, you can equally say that there is hardly any difference at all
    Adelene Dawner: How can we switch to it if we're already living in it?
    Pema Pera: everything I said is true, at the same time, from the perspective of timeless time
    Pema Pera: and it only sounds paradoxical because it simply doesn't fit into our logic, our framework
    Pema Pera: indeed, Adelene, there is no possibility to leave timeless time, so strictly speaking no possibility to swith to it or away from it
    Pema Pera: but we can learn to see it
    Pema Pera: to open ourselves up for it
    Pema Pera: which means to strop trying to close ourselves off from it
    Pema Pera: that's my introduction
    Pema Pera: so let's see how we all view timeless time
    Pema Pera: how we can work with it, really
    Pema Pera: that's the most important
    Mickorod Renard: how does it manifest itself in seeing Pema?
    Pema Pera: Hi Bobbeorn! welcome here.
    Mickorod Renard: or was tghat your last question?
    Pila Mulligan: Bobbeorn Chronometrist -- a timely last name
    Pema Pera: that's so hard to express, Mick -- a sense of dropping hope and fear is part of it, but those are all side effects
    Pema Pera: :)
    Mickorod Renard: I think I have felt it before
    Mickorod Renard: in several guises
    Pema Pera: when we gathered our pebbles, two weeks ago, they all felt like openings to timeless time in some way
    Pema Pera: the big problem is when we then stow away our pebbles in our memory, we tame them, we neuter them, we project them back into past-present-future time
    Maxine Walden: but the dreaming self does not do that, Pema.The 'now' of the dream may approach timelessness'
    Mickorod Renard: yes,,I would like to hold the moment of timeless time and explore it long enough to understand
    Pema Pera: in some dreams, yes, Maxine
    Pema Pera: but in most dreams we still worry about past and future, and concerned with those, I think
    Pema Pera: yes, Mick, but to do that, you cannot hold, you can only open up for, that is an essential distinction
    Maxine Walden: I am not sure about that, Pema. My experience is that we are in a different dimension in the dreaming state, not really relating to PPF at all
    Pema Pera: dream time is different, yes, Maxine, certainly
    Solobill Laville: But are we Aware of this different dimension in a dreaming state?
    Mickorod Renard: I remember opening up a few times,,and was elevated by a certain recognition,,but its too hard to explain
    Pema Pera: but in most cases also different from what I'm trying to point at, and Stim is trying to point at, when we talk about timeless time
    Pema Pera: elevated is a nice expression, it does feel like a kind of going beyond the usual distinctions
    Mickorod Renard: I am not sure but I think I experienced it in reverse too
    Mickorod Renard: where all the past seemed to flood into now,,and made everything relative
    Solobill Laville: May I share something?
    Pema Pera: of course!
    Wol Euler: please
    Mickorod Renard: pls
    Solobill Laville: I personally cannot separate the experiential aspect of zeroth time
    Solobill Laville: from the experience of non-separation...that are part of the same
    Solobill Laville: So it is confusing, to me, to try and parse it out separately, if that makes any sense
    Solobill Laville: In other words...
    Solobill Laville: non-time is really a function of being "within" boundlessness
    Solobill Laville: (me word talk not pretty...)
    Solobill Laville shrugs and smiles
    Pema Pera: (clear enough Solo!)
    Wol Euler chuckles.
    Pema Pera: sure, Solo, we cannot isolate timeless time as something separate, I fully agree
    Pema Pera: it is more the other way around
    Mickorod Renard: I like the :- non-time is really a function of being "within" boundlessness
    Pema Pera: if we try to open up for what you describe, then we can take the presence of the normal time experience (as only that experience) as a sign that we haven't really opened up yet
    Solobill Laville: yes
    Mickorod Renard: in other words..normal time is a boundary
    Pema Pera: we talk about no-self or not-doing or not-sticking-to-identities and wearing it all lightly
    Pema Pera: and no-time is probably the most radical of them all . . . .
    Pema Pera: but just an aspect, not a goal in itself
    Pema Pera: does anyone want to share an experience that might point towards timeless time?
    Pema Pera: perhaps that will ground the conversation more?
    Mickorod Renard: to immearse ourselves in no time,,would we have to remove all the regular dictating constraints ,,like work and eating etc,,for the period?
    Pema Pera: no
    Mickorod Renard: ok
    Mickorod Renard: so medirtation onit is not pre requisite?
    Pema Pera: no
    Mickorod Renard: scuse spellin
    Pema Pera: :)
    Solobill Laville: :)
    Pema Pera: we can look back at all the pebbles we gathered two weeks ago . . . but perhaps someone can bring out a new one?
    Pema Pera: I mean a hint at timeless time in a real-life experience?
    Pema Pera: it doesn't have to be esoteric . . . .
    Pema Pera: can be very mundane
    Solobill Laville: There are instances with my children, sometimes
    Solobill Laville: where 'love' flows through me, and I feel the glow, which is akin to the timelessness I speak of
    Mickorod Renard: as a child I remember that I only took notice of whether it was getting dark or not,,outside that was timeless
    Pema Pera: yes, those are nice examples, very direct and real in being felt, I'm sure!
    Pema Pera: can you go back to them, relive them in some sense, and feel the fork in the road?
    Pema Pera: I mean:
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Pema Pera: feel the two options we have in such cases?
    Pema Pera: to open up to those experience fully or to stow them away in our database of memory as happy events?
    Mickorod Renard: yeaaaa
    Wol Euler: mmhmm
    Pema Pera: to view them as portals to heaven or as happy exceptions in between the drudgery?
    Solobill Laville: Yes - it is the difference between saying "I love my child (or whoever) X", and ...just...love
    Solobill Laville: no me, or "other"
    Solobill Laville: and it is a portal indeed, apt word
    Mickorod Renard: I have a good life at the mom,,and very happy in general,,but the toll of responsibility etc has made me tight,,in the sense of needing to spend time careful and to its most efficient
    Pema Pera: (the question is what to do with the "crack" that Aurel's profile quotes from Lenneard Cohen: "There is a crack in everything, that's how the light gets in."0
    Mickorod Renard: thats a nice quote Pema
    aurel Miles laughs
    Pema Pera: Aurel's quote, Mick
    Mickorod Renard: she needs to give me councilling
    aurel Miles: what to do?
    Solobill Laville: Don't caulk it
    Mickorod Renard: I long for the feeling I had of timelessness as a child
    aurel Miles: be grateful for the crack - maybe
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    aurel Miles: which is harder than it sounds
    Pema Pera: each moment, Aurel, we have to option to open up beyond our usual view of time, or to keep buying into the past-present-future structure; it's up to us, each moment anew
    Pema Pera: and no previous moment dictates what we choose the next moment
    Pema Pera: it's up to us
    aurel Miles: this is a conversation where I have tried to only observe
    Pema Pera: I'm glad you failed, hehe
    Pema Pera: would love to hear your view, Aurel
    aurel Miles: because I ascribe to the First Nations philosophy of time
    aurel Miles: from the area where I was born
    Pema Pera: what is that philosophy, Aurel?
    aurel Miles: so the idea of "timelessness" well - hard for me to grasp linear time as valid so timelessness becomes an even more difficult concept
    aurel Miles: in a nutshell
    aurel Miles: all events, all time all lives, exist concurrently
    Pema Pera: yes
    aurel Miles: and we engage or disengage in order to organize a narrative of our lives
    aurel Miles: sometimes we slip
    Maxine Walden: I have to go, so will just slip out. Thanks, all, for the discussion
    Pema Pera: bye Maxine!
    Mickorod Renard: bye maxine
    Wol Euler: bye maxine
    aurel Miles: and that is why you "remember" things that haven't actually happened
    aurel Miles: bye
    Pila Mulligan: bye Maxine
    aurel Miles: sometimes we reach a kind of harmony - i suppose that's the best word for it
    Mickorod Renard: the slip as in time slip?
    aurel Miles: and we just exist
    aurel Miles: yeah - i'm not talking anything "magical" here
    aurel Miles: although i think the whole life experience is pretty extraordinary
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    aurel Miles: but i honestly don't believe linear time is an accurate representation of reality
    Pema Pera: yes, I agree
    aurel Miles: i do however acknowledge that it might be the only representation that I can comprehend well enough to use regularly
    aurel Miles: but i do slip
    aurel Miles: i do remember things sometimes - stupid things
    aurel Miles: sports scores
    aurel Miles: meetings
    aurel Miles: embarassing things
    aurel Miles: before they happen
    Wol Euler: hmmm
    aurel Miles: at least before they are perceived to have happened
    aurel Miles: i think that happens to everybody
    Mickorod Renard: and have you seen any one reason for these slips?
    aurel Miles: it's just that a couple of times -
    aurel Miles: no there's no reason
    Mickorod Renard: for me too
    aurel Miles: i was researching something for work once
    aurel Miles: and i wrote it up for my boss
    aurel Miles: and i wasnt' thinking about it very hard
    aurel Miles: and the next day he came to me and asked how i knew what happened in this city council meeting since i had submitted the report at 5
    aurel Miles: and the meeting took place at 6
    aurel Miles: that was embarassing
    aurel Miles: he already thinks i have some weird power over the computers
    aurel Miles: ha
    aurel Miles: that kind of thing
    aurel Miles: you just forget to be hooked into the idea of a linear narrative
    Solobill Laville quietly excuses himself, goodbye all :)
    Wol Euler: bye solo, take care
    Mickorod Renard: bye Sol
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Solo
    Pema Pera: bye Solo!
    Pila Mulligan: bye solo
    aurel Miles: i don't want to sound nuts
    aurel Miles: i do think it happens to everyone all the time
    Pema Pera: :)
    aurel Miles: and it's just so small
    aurel Miles: we don't notice
    Pema Pera: not to worry, Aurel :)
    Wol Euler: indeed
    Mickorod Renard: I wonder if that is why children are so ..protected?
    aurel Miles: but we do go toward things in a particular way
    aurel Miles: and you must admit
    aurel Miles: you always have "a feeling"
    Pema Pera: that's exactly it, we tend to iron out all that we experience so that it fits into our preconceived framework
    aurel Miles: about how important things will work out
    aurel Miles: and those feeligns are rarely wrong
    Mickorod Renard: when i was a kid i felt as though I knew everything that was relevent,,as if i was pre programed
    aurel Miles: but so much of our lives, work, money etc etc depends on maintaining the idea that we don't know
    Wol Euler nods. There have been several times when I've known with absolute certainty that I was about to win a door prize or whatever, and did.
    aurel Miles: our whole legal system is predicated on that
    aurel Miles: yeah - exactly
    Mickorod Renard: maybe it was a kids ability to exist in timelessness
    aurel Miles: we have a lot invested in thinking we don't know
    aurel Miles: so it's best to
    aurel Miles: umm
    aurel Miles: pretend along
    aurel Miles: and think about the reality of reality - in private
    Pema Pera: :)
    Wol Euler: (or get somebody to quietly place some really large bets for you ...)
    Pema Pera: or in Play as Being, here :-)
    Mickorod Renard: I won a beautiful,,and expensive water colour once
    Pila Mulligan: a childhood frined's favorite game was to tell his buddies what the next song to be played ont he radio would be -- he was always right
    aurel Miles: and we all get impatient - i mean, it's complex and maybe i should have not mentioned it
    Mickorod Renard: and it was a raffle ticket
    Mickorod Renard: I wouldnt buy any at first,,then i had a feeling come over me,,so I bought just one number,,and it won
    aurel Miles: yeah - those things happen every day
    Mickorod Renard: everyone said how silly it was to buy just one,,,and mean,,but I said I only needed the one
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pema Pera: :)
    aurel Miles: i wish we would stop thinking they are crazy or magical
    Mickorod Renard: he he
    aurel Miles: and start just looking at what they actually migh mean
    Pema Pera: yes, and trying to reproduce them won't work
    Pila Mulligan: time is an illusion someone once said
    aurel Miles: i think the way we organize it is
    Pila Mulligan: and someone else said timeis a terrible master
    Pila Mulligan: 'lo Koii
    Korii Tiger: hi Pila
    Wol Euler: wb korii
    Pila Mulligan: r*
    Korii Tiger: thank you Wol.
    Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Korii
    Mickorod Renard: I cant see how I can reproduce the feeling I had as a kid,,of timelessness,,with all the burdon of life on my shoulders at the mom
    Korii Tiger: Hello Scath.
    Mickorod Renard: hiya Kori
    Korii Tiger: thats interesting Mick
    Pila Mulligan: 'now we see but through a glass darkly'
    Mickorod Renard: yes
    Wol Euler: I think kids find that easier because they haven't yet learned that the measurement of time is "real"
    aurel Miles: be careful what you wish for
    Pema Pera: reproducing we cannot, Mick, but we can open up again for it
    aurel Miles: i have no problem reexperiencing that feeling
    Pema Pera: big difference!
    Wol Euler: it takes ages to understand "now" and "future", cause and effet
    aurel Miles: but deadlines still loom
    aurel Miles: and the days pass
    Korii Tiger: me either Aurel.
    Mickorod Renard: I can feel it again,,but only for a few mins
    aurel Miles: joining in to the group perceptionm of time is a valuable thing
    aurel Miles: some people would call it "going with the flow"
    aurel Miles: something i sometimes have trouble with
    aurel Miles: and that's a weakness
    Pema Pera: yes, or doing by not-doing
    Korii Tiger: for it can feel like travelign back to that time.. those memoirs and feelings ar eso vivid.. right since i was a todler..
    Pema Pera: wu-wei in Chinese
    Mickorod Renard: I keep saying,,,as soon as I have finnished that and as soon as this is done,,then I will make time for myself
    Pema Pera: :)
    Wol Euler nods
    Mickorod Renard: I remember summer hols lasted forever,,and so did each year
    Mickorod Renard: each day a seperate lifetime
    Pema Pera: talking about time . . . it's time for me to go . . . .
    aurel Miles: me too
    Pila Mulligan: bye Pema
    Korii Tiger: bye Pema.
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Pema:)
    aurel Miles: i am behind in my writing and my housework
    Wol Euler: bye pema, take care, an bye aurel. nice meeting you
    Pema Pera: great meeting you all again today!
    aurel Miles: ha
    Mickorod Renard: yea,,me too,,thanks Pema,,bye
    Pila Mulligan: bye aurel
    aurel Miles: bye
    Pema Pera: Thanks for joining us, Aurel, do come back whenever you like!
    aurel Miles: thank you
    Wol Euler: (well, youÄll find us here at 1, 7, 1, 7)
    Korii Tiger: think i'll go play with adelenese doodle board
    aurel Miles: it was lovely to meet you all
    Mickorod Renard: bye aurel
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Aurel
    Pila Mulligan: bye Korii
    Scathach Rhiadra: bye Korii:)
    Wol Euler: bye korii
    Korii Tiger: bye bye
    Scathach Rhiadra: I must go too, bye Wol, Mick, Pila, namasté
    Mickorod Renard: nameste
    Wol Euler: bye scath, take care, sleep well
    Pila Mulligan: bye Scath
    Wol Euler: and bye mick, bye pila.
    Mickorod Renard: i best be off too now,,thanks Pila Wol
    Pila Mulligan: bye Mick
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol
    Wol Euler: enjoy the rest of your sundays
    Pila Mulligan: thanks
    Wol Euler: my pleasure, but for what?
    Wol Euler: :)
    Pila Mulligan: for the fun of it :)
    Wol Euler: ah :)
    Pila Mulligan: actually for [14:21] Wol Euler: enjoy the rest of your sundays
    Wol Euler: you're welcome. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
    Wol Euler: heheheh
    Wol Euler: huh, I'd already forgotten.
    Pila Mulligan: :)
    Wol Euler: bye for now, Pila.
    Pila Mulligan: bye Wol
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