2009.04.19 19:00 - Dreams and time

The Guardian for this meeting was stevenaia Michinaga. The comments are by stevenaia Michinaga.

Pila Mulligan and Eliza Madriga joined me for the evening....

I began the conversation continuing a discussion I had heard earlier with Maxine's session and Pila's comments about  prescient dreaming 

 
Pila Mulligan: hi Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hi Pila
stevenaia Michinaga: Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Evening :)
Pila Mulligan: hi eliza
Eliza Madrigal: I am stating (to myself) that I will be here just a little while...hahah
Pila Mulligan: me too ;)
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: and I won't.. so we are clear...smiles
Pila Mulligan: how does this relate to Stims no-fib event?
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t know that one
stevenaia Michinaga: what did he say
Pila Mulligan: Stim's doing a Thursday course in ethics, a workshop
Pila Mulligan: the practice for this week is not to fib
stevenaia Michinaga: one of my favorite topics
Eliza Madrigal: Right Speech...and paying attention to what that means :)
Pila Mulligan: yes, it is an interesting session
stevenaia Michinaga: well I will be here longer than a little while
Pila Mulligan: is something happening later we should be aware of, Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: I didn't have that dream yet so I don;t know
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: so you had a prophetic dream, Pila?
Eliza Madrigal: I only stated it that way because sometimes...no, oftentimes, I mean to just come for a little bit, and you all are always so interesting :
Eliza Madrigal: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: hello Dax
Pila Mulligan: hi Dax
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Dax
Dax Vyper: hello
stevenaia Michinaga: have you been here before?
Dax Vyper: no
Pila Mulligan: this looks like your first day in Second Life, Dax
stevenaia Michinaga: here is some information on our discussion group
Dax Vyper: thank you
stevenaia Michinaga: we record our sessions and post them, can we include your comments?
Dax Vyper: yeah
stevenaia Michinaga: thx
Eliza Madrigal: welcome dax :)
Pila Mulligan: http://playasbeing.wik.is/ <-- where the chat logs are posted
stevenaia Michinaga: have a seat if you know how
stevenaia Michinaga: so Pila, back to your dream of future events
stevenaia Michinaga: back
Pila Mulligan: Steve I've had prescient dreams for many years, often enough to be used to them
Pila Mulligan: usually small scale events that I live in real life later
stevenaia Michinaga: nothing that provokes deja vu
stevenaia Michinaga: or a bit more concrete
Pila Mulligan: well, they are in a sense the origins of a deja vu sensation
Pila Mulligan: as I recognize the dream in the event
Pila Mulligan: but not the ambiguous sense of normal deja vu
stevenaia Michinaga: are the events (dream and reality) closely spaced in time?
Pila Mulligan: not necessarily -- they can be, or they can be quite some distance apart
stevenaia Michinaga: I love the context of time in this discussion... using words like space and distance
Pila Mulligan: the architecture of perception
stevenaia Michinaga: indeed
Eliza Madrigal: We bring our capacities for awareness into sleep also
Eliza Madrigal: So if we are more "awake" during the day...why not in dreams as well
Pila Mulligan: not sure I understand Eliza, could you elaborate please
Eliza Madrigal: I mean our sense of clarity and wide perception mostly
Pila Mulligan: can be at different levels during day time and dreaming, you mean?
Pila Mulligan: one the same as the other in the variety of acuity
stevenaia Michinaga: was thinking .... perhaps a dream about a future even takes place in a dream, predicting the future events within the dream
stevenaia Michinaga: the illusion of illusion, the dream within the dream
Pila Mulligan: if I did not misunderstand ELiza, I agree that we have moments of greater lucidity both when waking and dreaming, and my sense is that there is a paired relationship between dreams and days
Pila Mulligan: so our peaks of lucidity, waking and dreaming, we remember best
Pila Mulligan: and they may overlap
Eliza Madrigal: yes, that is what I meant, certainly
Pila Mulligan: in my wild youth I had occasion to lapse into moments of experiments with psychedelics
Pila Mulligan: then there were moments when a waking state seemed like a dream, so it goes both ways
Eliza Madrigal: And do you think this ties into the futuristic dreaming?
Pila Mulligan: no, it was long ago and has been wiped out pretty well by meditation
Pila Mulligan: but the idea that the dream state and waking state can overlap remains
Pila Mulligan: in other words, a moment of great lucidity is remembered for its lucidity, regardless of when it happened
Eliza Madrigal nods
stevenaia Michinaga: I used to write my dreams in a journal, and even today when I read them I can remember then clearly, even if they may not have been particularly lucid, just written immediately after having them
Pila Mulligan: that would be the same for a daytime diary too, I bet
Pila Mulligan: I do both :)
Pila Mulligan: still do
stevenaia Michinaga: I don;t write daytime diaries
stevenaia Michinaga: or didn;t
Eliza Madrigal: There do seem to be treasures. I write mine out more lately, but haven't written daydreams...but will :)
Pila Mulligan: the absence of a memory seems easily overcome by a stimulus that invokes it
Pila Mulligan: what you may want to see if you notice is some parallel between dream events and daytime events
Pila Mulligan: I see it pretty easily sometimes
Pila Mulligan: not just in prescient dreams, but in relationships between people and events
Pila Mulligan: now last night, however, I dreamed along into to a Star Trek episode I'd never seen ... not sure where that relates :)
Eliza Madrigal: :) There is another Star Trek movie being made... :)
Pila Mulligan: ahh, maybe I'm anticipating seeing it :)
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, I saw that
Pila Mulligan: you've seen he movie Steve?
stevenaia Michinaga: I saw that there will be another one
stevenaia Michinaga: and I have seen all the others
stevenaia Michinaga: but I suspect not the one in your dream
Pila Mulligan: oh, well in the dream, it was at the start and the enterprise pulled up to a space bar (like a Star Wars scene) and the idea was of some events coming to them from the outer space side of the bar
Pila Mulligan: a space bar like a place for drinks
stevenaia Michinaga: like in the Tribbles episode
Eliza Madrigal: Like some places in Sl...sit around the bar with all sorts of neat creatures. ahah
Pila Mulligan: :)
Eliza Madrigal: I find lately, that the same way I stop and meditate in life, I think I'm dipping into that in sleep...like a sort of clear gap
Pila Mulligan: hi Fruitopus
stevenaia Michinaga: she's gone
Pila Mulligan: yes, I am sure meditation overlaps into dreams
Pila Mulligan: like your earlier reference to peaks and valleys of perception
Pila Mulligan: So if we are more "awake" during the day...why not in dreams as well
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Pila Mulligan: and Steve, just wait til you do tai chi in a dream
Pila Mulligan: it is cool
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: let me get the moves down first
Pila Mulligan: the only thing better is to do it in the ocean
Eliza Madrigal: Oh, nice.
stevenaia Michinaga: isn't that the point... to believe it is in an ocean
Pila Mulligan: on a calm day at about shoulder level in the surf it will be lifting you and dropping you very slowly and the movements are seen for how they coordinate
Pila Mulligan: floating thru them
Eliza Madrigal: I'm going to keep my word and get to sleep early :) Night guys and Thanks. What a nice image to take :)
stevenaia Michinaga: that will be in July at the ocean for me
Pila Mulligan: bye Eliza, sweet dreams :)
stevenaia Michinaga: night Eliza
Eliza Madrigal: Bye for now. :) You too, and thanks :)

Corvi and Pila along with Genesis have begun hosting a conversation about a Real Life Play as Being center to be constructed somewhere at sometime in the future at the Wednesday 1:00 Session. Pila and I were discussion Corvi's absence from this Wednesday's session...

Pila Mulligan: Corvi is going to the beach Wednesday, so she will miss the retreat theme session
stevenaia Michinaga: I was surprised that Maxine's meeting this afternoon wasn't at the cafe
Pila Mulligan: she has workshops at the Cafe Tuesdays
Pila Mulligan: this was the time she and Pema used for a while
Pila Mulligan: and Bert suggested the theme for here
stevenaia Michinaga: awww
stevenaia Michinaga: I will try to make it on Wednesday
Pila Mulligan: thanks :)
stevenaia Michinaga: Corvi is at the beach now... and in SL ATM
Pila Mulligan: at a SL beach though?
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: Wednesday is at real life beach, I believe :)
stevenaia Michinaga: no RL beach
stevenaia Michinaga: now
Pila Mulligan: oh, she is there now
stevenaia Michinaga: SL now too
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
Pila Mulligan: I see
Pila Mulligan: April is kind of early for beach weather in NC as I recall
stevenaia Michinaga: she says it was cold, I know the ocean is, but it was 72 here for the first time today here in PA
stevenaia Michinaga: cold for you I;m sure
Pila Mulligan: 72 is fine here :)
Pila Mulligan: I'm at 2300' so it gets chilly here sometimes
Pila Mulligan: 50's

Pila asked some question about space-time and the expanding universe which I am far from qualified to answer but was happy to share what I did know.  I am sure there are better explanations of relativity than mine, so please feel free to add to this.

Pila Mulligan: do you understand physics very well, Steve? ... particularly, the idea of an expanding universe of space-time?
stevenaia Michinaga: somewhat, I watch to much NOVA and listen about string theory
Pila Mulligan: that idea has been stuck in my mind for weeks
Pila Mulligan: it may have given me my first sense of grasping relativity, but I'm not at all sure my grasp relates to physics :)
stevenaia Michinaga: read Isaac Asimov in my youth
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: do you think it is literally like an expanding sphere?
stevenaia Michinaga: like the skin of a balloon
stevenaia Michinaga: I think we reside on the surface only
Pila Mulligan: okay, so if you go faster than light you go faster than time ... :)
stevenaia Michinaga: questions for Pema, but I don't think that is possible
stevenaia Michinaga: you can't go faster than light speed
Pila Mulligan: isn't Einstein's theory of relativity that a space traveller going faster than  light ages slower than his friends on earth
stevenaia Michinaga: gods hand at work, I suppose
stevenaia Michinaga: no as you get closer to the speed of light, time slows and mass increases
Pila Mulligan: okay, so the faster you go the slower it gets
stevenaia Michinaga: that's way everyone at home gets old and appears that you don;t age
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: to those you left
Pila Mulligan: so it is like a short cut across the expanding balloon?
Pila Mulligan: you get there before they do
stevenaia Michinaga: no you are still on the surface going ever faster and closer to the speed of light
Pila Mulligan: or vice versa
Pila Mulligan: well, there goes my rationale :)
stevenaia Michinaga: short cuts are warps or worm holes
Pila Mulligan: I was thinking that if you travel faster than the expansion rate it would account for the age difference
stevenaia Michinaga: time never goes backwards except in star trek
stevenaia Michinaga: and you never get to the future before someone else does
Pila Mulligan: but you get there younger
Pila Mulligan: in less time, therefore
stevenaia Michinaga: no, you are less young as time passes normally for you, everyone else got old and died
Pila Mulligan: why is there a aging difference?
stevenaia Michinaga: speed close to light slows time down for the thing moving close to speed of light (you, for instance)
stevenaia Michinaga: hence relativity, time and mass are relative to the observer
stevenaia Michinaga: relative
Pila Mulligan: so in slower time you age more slowly, but that would seem to mean that you are going through history more slowly too
stevenaia Michinaga: (note to log readers: please correct me in the comments if my understanding is not correct )
Pila Mulligan: and I am sure mine are incoherent, so pardon them as well :)
stevenaia Michinaga: well you are aging slower at that speed, but everyone else isn;t so they get older faster relative to you but normal for them
Pila Mulligan: so they get to point B more slowly than I do
Pila Mulligan: that was where I wanted to connect it to the idea of expanding space and time
Pila Mulligan: I get to point B more quickly because I take a short cut across the expansion rate
stevenaia Michinaga: yes, if they came to visit it may take them 100,000 years to get where you are, so they are all gone by then
Pila Mulligan: ok, se let's say I fly the Enterprise as close to warp 1 as possible in a big circle out to a remote place in space and back -- and so then on my return you are a little older than I am, thanks to Dr. Einstein
Pila Mulligan: say it takes ten years
Pila Mulligan: for me
Pila Mulligan: and ten years + x for you
Pila Mulligan: could x be related to the expansion rate of space-time?
stevenaia Michinaga: I didn;t know it is related to the speed you traveled more then the physics of the expanding universe
stevenaia Michinaga: as far as I know
Pila Mulligan: well, the funny thought is that this logic leads me to believe I would also be a little smaller than you, relatively, as I would not have expanded as much with space and time :)
Pila Mulligan: my corpuscles and atoms would still be more compact
Pila Mulligan: i.e. unexpanded
Pila Mulligan: due tot he short cut thru space and time
Pila Mulligan: take less time, takes less space :)
Pila Mulligan: by a factor of x
stevenaia Michinaga: the time space diet... I see
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: an excellent novel
Pila Mulligan: but probably weak science
stevenaia Michinaga: sounds like a hollywood fat to come, the Einstein diet
stevenaia Michinaga: fad
Pila Mulligan: both :)
stevenaia Michinaga: but you get heavier, (and shorter, not lighter)
Pila Mulligan: stay behind, fat -- board the starship, fad
Pila Mulligan: you get heavier if you stay, don;t you?
Pila Mulligan: less mass
Pila Mulligan: more mass
stevenaia Michinaga: no your mass increases as you speed up, making it impossible to accelerate mass to the speed of light as you get infinitely heavy\
Pila Mulligan: ah, time slows and mass increases
Pila Mulligan: c*
stevenaia Michinaga: so you can only put very thin people to very high speeds
Pila Mulligan: I see
Pila Mulligan: so the x factor affects time by keeping you younger and mass by keeping you more compact
Pila Mulligan: more dense

I took the cue from the time and decided to downgrade the conversation as it was getting late

stevenaia Michinaga: lol
stevenaia Michinaga: slow and stupid
Pila Mulligan: sounds right
Pila Mulligan: any fool can see that
Pila Mulligan: I can see that!
stevenaia Michinaga: while getting fast and dense
Pila Mulligan: so the diet is simply to go slow
Pila Mulligan: very slow
stevenaia Michinaga: apparently
stevenaia Michinaga: there is a book on the physics of star trek
Pila Mulligan: ok, well this was nice to try to put in words the ideas that have been crowding my mind lately
Pila Mulligan: is it close to the physics of real life (so-called)
stevenaia Michinaga: grins
stevenaia Michinaga: a fitting end to the weekend
stevenaia Michinaga: thanks
Pila Mulligan: thank you
Pila Mulligan: I am going to try the go slow weight loss diet
stevenaia Michinaga: tai chi
Pila Mulligan: true
Pila Mulligan: by the time you get the tai chi biscuit from your plate to your mouth ...
stevenaia Michinaga: will try to see you Wed
Pila Mulligan: see you then Steve -- aloha