2009.04.21 13:00 - Dream on and on

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    The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

      Mickorod Renard: has everyone had a nice day so far?
      Udge Watanabe: quite fair, thanks. And you?
      genesis Zhangsun: :) allergies
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: a beautiful day.
      genesis Zhangsun: stuffy head
      genesis Zhangsun: :)
      Mickorod Renard: great,,bar the allergies Gen
      Mickorod Renard: my day was fine too,,very busy though
      Mickorod Renard: school is back in full swing
      Mickorod Renard: Hiya Scath
      Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)
      Udge Watanabe: hi scath
      genesis Zhangsun: Hi Scath
      Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael, Udge, Gen, Mick, Corvi
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Scath
      Mickorod Renard: its funny how you can feel all chilled and relaxed after these sessions,,then as soon as you step into work all hell breaks loose
      Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
      Fael Illyar: it's all a matter perspective :)
      Udge Watanabe: yeah
      Fael Illyar: entirely possible to be chilled and relaxed in the middle of all hell breaking loose :)
      Udge Watanabe: :)
      Fael Illyar: (no, not saying anything about how easy that might be)
      Mickorod Renard: well i am pretty relaxed at work by comparison,,but non the less,,its hard to keep focussed on being chilled
      Mickorod Renard: oops
      Fael Illyar: well, the key really is not focusing :)
      Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
      Mickorod Renard: Hi Sophie
      genesis Zhangsun: Hi Sophia
      Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
      Udge Watanabe: hello sophia
      sophia Placebo: hi genesis , scath udge
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Sophia.
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,a sort of go with the flow,,but our own flow rather than other peoples chaos
      sophia Placebo: hi corv
      Mickorod Renard: I am glad the sunshine has arrived in the Uk at last
      Fael Illyar: Yes, sunshine is nice :)
      Mickorod Renard: it has a wonderful uplifting quality
      Udge Watanabe nods
      Mickorod Renard: has anyone any interesting topics to share?
      Mickorod Renard: Hi sophia sharon
      Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
      sophia Placebo: hi sophia
      Udge Watanabe: hello sophiasharon
      Scathach Rhiadra: Hello SophiaSharon
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Sophia
      SophiaSharon Larnia: HI all
      genesis Zhangsun: Hi SophiaSharon
      SophiaSharon Larnia waves
      Mickorod Renard: I must get around to reading Maxines dream / time log
      Mickorod Renard: it sounded really interesting
      Udge Watanabe: it's been posted already, btw, I just looked
      Mickorod Renard: great
      Udge Watanabe: it was a great session ...
      Mickorod Renard: what did you find most interesting Udge?
      Udge Watanabe: well, hard to pick a single aspect. I'm curious about predictive dreaming, which many people seem to have experienced
      Udge Watanabe: *seemed
      Udge Watanabe: (not me)
      Mickorod Renard: I have had a few experiences
      Mickorod Renard: not quite predictive
      Mickorod Renard: but being extraordinary,,and then becoming reality
      sophia Placebo: i agree with mick in his discreption
      Mickorod Renard: once I quoted a whole song and video of a record that didnt come out for a year or two afterwards
      Udge Watanabe: wow
      SophiaSharon Larnia: wow
      sophia Placebo: intresting
      SophiaSharon Larnia: I call it the 'Random' Mickorod, but that doesn't sound random
      Mickorod Renard: I told lots of friends about it as it was so profound,,then to thier suprise it happened
      sophia Placebo: was it a good song?
      Mickorod Renard: yes
      Fael Illyar: who knows, maybe we actually have you to thank for having the song ;)
      Mickorod Renard: another was the dream of a distraught woman calling out her daughters name

      Mickorod Renard: the name was unusual,,i woke up in a terible state and insisted that my partner remember the name should i forget
      Mickorod Renard: afterward i felt disturbed by it as i felt It was a massage
      Mickorod Renard: message
      Mickorod Renard: one year later,,the girl was lost,,the one with the odd name
      sophia Placebo: what did you feel back then? when it come to reality
      Mickorod Renard: I cannot say,,,a mix of shock but also resignment
      Mickorod Renard: one thing these things pose to me is that it suggests that something can transcend time
      Mickorod Renard: and if so,,puts a diferent perspective on things
      SophiaSharon Larnia: like a personal type of proof that time is not linear
      Mickorod Renard: I have never had a dream showing anything useful personally,,like the lottery numbers
      sophia Placebo: niether do i
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,,ui dont expect anyone else to take anything from it,,as its personal,,but for me its very wierd
      Mickorod Renard: another thing that i find interesting is
      Mickorod Renard: I have recounted several of these dreams to my partner and friends,,yet oddly they thinmk it is nothing,,yet to me its profound
      Udge Watanabe: I can't imagine thinking that such a dream is "nothing"
      Udge Watanabe: seems very much the worng word, though I can't find a better one.
      SophiaSharon Larnia: I keep thinking this should be useful smehow
      Mickorod Renard: nor me,,but even with the info up front,,and sort of proven to them,,they think its a trick
      Udge Watanabe nods.
      Udge Watanabe: it's hard to know what to do about it. If a stranger approached you and said "I had a dream in which your mother was calling your name in distress", would that help you in any way?
      Udge Watanabe: Unless your dream helpfully included what was happening, who did it ...
      Udge Watanabe: and even then: would you believe the stranger?
      Fael Illyar: also, doesn't seem likely you saw the dream just by chance.
      Mickorod Renard: I have concluded that the dreams are a personal message just for me,,as they are of no use to me,,but they show me something beyond ,,something extra
      Fael Illyar: but, if seeing the dream has a purpose, it clearly isn't to change what it showed.
      SophiaSharon Larnia: oh? I did not think of it that way Fael
      Mickorod Renard: i think they are to keep me questioning
      Fael Illyar: also, did you talk to the girl in question?
      Mickorod Renard: I only saw the mother in the dream
      Mickorod Renard: and it was about distress
      Fael Illyar: what I'm going at is, was there anything you wouldn't have done if you hadn't seen the dream?
      Mickorod Renard: at least 2 things come to mind
      Mickorod Renard: one is that I may have become complacent in the facination of them,,as they arrive with long periods without
      Mickorod Renard: and secondly, I may not have felt the compassion for the loss the parents felt,,as its normal to just think of the child
      Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, that might well be the dreams purpose.
      Fael Illyar: number 2
      Mickorod Renard: the child didnt feature at all,,just the mother
      Mickorod Renard: but the name was significant,,as when asleep,,i forced myself to wake,,if fact my jaw was still frozen in sleep and I couldnt even talk,,but i had to utter the name of the child
      Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz :)
      Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fefonz
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Fefonz
      Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
      Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone :)
      SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fefonz
      Udge Watanabe: hello fefonz
      sophia Placebo: hi fef
      sophia Placebo: that is scary mick , or wasnt it?
      Mickorod Renard: I felt guilt for a long time because I thought i may have a gift to save people that i wasnt using
      Udge Watanabe nods
      Udge Watanabe: actually, that is why I asked you earlier...
      Mickorod Renard: but I have no control over them
      SophiaSharon Larnia: i suspect that others do too Mickorod, your experience is very specific and perhaps most are not, but I thinkmany people have synchronistic type dreams and talk about it
      SophiaSharon Larnia: don't talk * i meant
      Mickorod Renard: whats sychronistic?
      Fefonz Quan: (i guess we already started the dream workshop of today:))
      Mickorod Renard: yeaaa
      Udge Watanabe: :)
      SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry i spelled wrong, dreaming something, and a similiar event presents itself in your life, those are the kinds of dreams I have
      Mickorod Renard: i dont usually talk about them in public
      SophiaSharon Larnia: not exact
      SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
      Mickorod Renard: ahh I see,,,like the deja vu thing
      SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
      Mickorod Renard: I have tried very hard to dismiss my experiences,,as they are not comfortable to carry
      Fael Illyar: why not?
      Mickorod Renard: there is a likelyhood people will think I am nuts
      sophia Placebo: :)
      Udge Watanabe grins and nods
      Fael Illyar: only if you talk about the experiences :)
      Mickorod Renard: and as i said earlier,,there is a frustration too
      Mickorod Renard: that they have no tangiable worth
      Fael Illyar: why would tangible worth be more important than having them?
      Fael Illyar: having had the experience
      Mickorod Renard: well,,i would prefer ordinary dreams,,these leave me feeling bothered,,they have a diferent taste,,if u know what i mean
      Fael Illyar: so... you know a small detail of the future .... why would that bother you?
      Fefonz Quan: it might be handy if this is the stock market of tomorrow...
      Fael Illyar: definitely :)
      Mickorod Renard: I have come to realise that we all have a sort of cross to bear in life,,,all diferent and personal,,,mine is control
      Udge Watanabe: or if the dream included details that you could pass on to the person, that might convince them to listen and/or tell them what to avoid
      Fael Illyar: but then the dream wouldn't be dream that tells the future but a warning
      Mickorod Renard: i have to try and stop controlling,,what is given me are tests
      Fael Illyar can't help flinching at the will to control in that sentence.
      Mickorod Renard: what would i do if i mastered the art of dreaming of future events
      Fefonz Quan: minority report?
      Mickorod Renard: he he eh
      Fael Illyar: whatever is the source of those dreams, might not agree with the usage...
      Mickorod Renard: thats the point,,its a game
      sophia Placebo: g2g, see you later all
      Mickorod Renard: bye Sophie
      Fael Illyar: see you later sophia
      Scathach Rhiadra: bye sophia
      SophiaSharon Larnia: bye sophia
      Fael Illyar: but the real question is, why do you need to learn to control the dreams?
      Fefonz Quan: maybe just accepting these happenings Mick, without putting to much effort in understanding/using/finding purpose might help
      Mickorod Renard: well,,that is because at the moment the dreams do not provide useful information
      Fefonz Quan: well, i have tons of dreams that don't provide useful information
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,that is the point..like karma
      Fefonz Quan: i don't letr them interrupt my sleep, sort of speak
      Fael Illyar: depends a bit on your definition of 'useful' :)
      SophiaSharon Larnia: they do seem to serve a purpose, other than proding your attention
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,i can sit here now and say,,i would only use them to save people,,,,,but i know that temptation is too much for me still
      Udge Watanabe nods
      Fefonz Quan: did you use them for other cause till now?
      Fael Illyar: yes, which is probably why you don't get anything 'useful' from them.
      Mickorod Renard: exactly
      Mickorod Renard: I have to become more pure in actions
      Fael Illyar flinches again at the will to control.
      Mickorod Renard: and this is a sort of breaking effect on my control issue
      SophiaSharon Larnia: are you in a particular state of mind when these occur Mickorod?
      Fael Illyar: will to control... or in other words, the will to decide how things go.
      Fefonz Quan: This 1am sessin Susi talked a lot about understanding dreams, and it looks like he have a lot of experience with that. you might ask hius advice
      Mickorod Renard: ok cool..thanks fef
      Fefonz Quan: has*
      Mickorod Renard: Fael, yes i have had several dreams of this nature,,but non due to a particulatr state of mind
      Fael Illyar: (SophiaSharon asked that :)
      Mickorod Renard: soory;)
      Mickorod Renard: sorry
      Scathach Rhiadra: I must be off, good night all, Namasté
      Fael Illyar: see you later Scath :)
      Mickorod Renard: as a child I had wierd dreams when i had things like a bad cold
      SophiaSharon Larnia: bye scathach
      Mickorod Renard: nite Scath
      Fefonz Quan: i will leave too, bye all :)
      Mickorod Renard: bye Fef
      Fael Illyar: ah, yes, me too, I had quite weird dreams. Especially when sick.
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,with a high temprature?
      Fael Illyar: yep
      Fael Illyar: like one nightmare where I became a fish :)
      Mickorod Renard: lol
      SophiaSharon Larnia: oh!
      Mickorod Renard: what happened ?
      Fael Illyar: don't remember all that clearly anymore :)
      Fael Illyar: just that I became a fish and was horrified about it :)
      Fael Illyar: not about becoming the fish but what it would mean for my future :)
      Mickorod Renard: grin,,they can leave something behind,,like a memory of the feeling not the events?
      Mickorod Renard: oops
      SophiaSharon Larnia: i must go too, bye all :))
      Fael Illyar: see you later SophiaSharon :)
      Mickorod Renard: bye sophie
      Udge Watanabe: bye SS
      SophiaSharon Larnia: see you later
      Fael Illyar: controlling is something that feels very much doing to me... to define what would be the non-doing version of it ...
      Fael Illyar: will to control, is the will to decide how things will go. non-doing version would be to guide how things go but accept the result, however it goes.
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,nice way of looking at it
      Mickorod Renard: I now have to think on the lines that i have control over how i act in the world,,and not in my future
      Mickorod Renard: there is a saying about money,,but i think its good for life in general
      Mickorod Renard: look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves
      Fael Illyar: :)
      Fael Illyar: so, take care of the details and the bigger issues will take care of themselves.
      Fael Illyar likes it.
      Mickorod Renard: yes
      Udge Watanabe: it might be restated as "you can't solve big issues by ignoring little ones" :)
      Mickorod Renard: yea
      Fael Illyar: Yes, that too :)
      Mickorod Renard: the karma thing is a good idea
      Mickorod Renard: i have just started to appreciate it
      Fael Illyar: I find it a bit vague term :)
      Fael Illyar: never know what someone means when they say the word :)
      Mickorod Renard: i didnt either,,but we have had some in depth discussions lately
      Mickorod Renard: with stim too
      Mickorod Renard: hi ara
      Udge Watanabe: "what goes around, comes around" perhaps; or "reap what you sow"
      Mickorod Renard: yep
      Udge Watanabe: hello arabella
      arabella Ella: Hiya!
      Fael Illyar: Hi arabella :)
      arabella Ella: I know I am very late but was wondering whether you guys were still here :)
      Mickorod Renard: I think most religions have something like karma
      Mickorod Renard: I think its worth not overlooking the small things in life
      Fael Illyar: yes, those are usually the more important ones :)
      Mickorod Renard: yes..even little lies are not good
      Corvuscorva Nightfire: I gotta go...see ya'll.
      Udge Watanabe: goodnight corvi
      arabella Ella: bye Corvi
      Fael Illyar waves 'See you later Corvi.'
      Mickorod Renard: nite corv
      arabella Ella: yes why not?
      Mickorod Renard: ?
      arabella Ella: Mick would u not even say a white lie to save your own family or your own job?
      Mickorod Renard: well,,funny session tonite
      arabella Ella: if the stakes were really high?
      Mickorod Renard: yes,,even a big lie
      Udge Watanabe: agreed, I came to feel the same way while living in England
      arabella Ella: so would a little lie to save your family or your job be a bad thing too?
      Mickorod Renard: but,,i would at first question why i wud need too
      Fael Illyar: I think it's more about lying to yourself
      Udge Watanabe: just becuse something is true, doesn't mean you have to say it. Truth is not a blunt weapon
      arabella Ella nods
      Mickorod Renard: fortunately i manage to be open and honest in life,,but yes, i wud lie to save
      Fael Illyar: yep, truth is something that can be left unsaid.
      arabella Ella: but come on ... what if you could lose your job for being late so you said you had a flat tire or something similar? to save your livlihood ... survival instinct?
      Mickorod Renard: I find its easier to live in a life where lies are not needed,,but someplaces,,or circumstances present dificult options
      arabella Ella nods
      Mickorod Renard: I am lucky that my workplace is flexible to things like that
      arabella Ella: yes you are ... but it was just one example
      Mickorod Renard: and,,somewhere draconian,,well i wouldnt have that respect for that sort of regime
      arabella Ella: i think we also lie sometimes to protect others who are near and dear and we may even rationalise and believe the lies we may say
      arabella Ella: our rationality sometimes may give us a weird perspective on things to make them seem the way we wish threm to be
      Fael Illyar: yes, we even lie to ourselves to do that sometimes. To protect them from ourself.
      arabella Ella: so then i would also question what lying is
      arabella Ella nods
      arabella Ella: i think lying is bad only if the intention is evil or bad
      arabella Ella: to cause harm to others
      Udge Watanabe: we need to distinguish between hurtful and lubricating lies.
      arabella Ella: and there are degrees of course
      Udge Watanabe: society needs lies like machines need oil.
      Mickorod Renard: at the point of lying,,i believe its time to ask serious questions,,about why it was nessesary
      Fael Illyar: the lies that are necessary are necessary to counter other lies.
      arabella Ella: yes Udge take politicians ... I think most of them lie quite often in public to present a picture that is not always 100 percent correct
      Udge Watanabe: not necessarily.
      Udge Watanabe: I lie to our customers when I say that the boss is in a meeting, when in fact he hasn't had time to read the e-mail that they want to discuss with him
      arabella Ella: another example ... making others feel valued or increasing their self esteem may require white lies too ... what;s the harm there?
      Fael Illyar: udge, that is countering your Boss's lie of having rad the email
      Fael Illyar: well, not quite so exact bu close enough
      Udge Watanabe: whose lives would be improved if I said "your mail wasn't important enough for him to read yet"?
      arabella Ella agrees with Udge
      Fael Illyar: or perhaps the customers lie to themselves that their message has been read.
      Udge Watanabe: well, they have a reasonable expetation that it would be read :) just not yet.
      arabella Ella: in the past I often had to say the boss was out when he wasn't
      Fael Illyar: oh wait wait, I'm still looking in the wrong place :)
      Mickorod Renard: maybe the illussion we create for ourselves is what has formulated due to lies,,either from others trying to elevate us,,or by idealism in our own ego's
      arabella Ella: it was part of a job
      Fael Illyar: it's the lie that expectation is based on.
      Udge Watanabe: for myself, I try not to do that. I try to say honestly "I haven't read that yet, can I call you back this evening?"
      Fael Illyar: if you told them the truth, they'd wreak havoc with the lie that their message should've been read already.
      Udge Watanabe: most people do accept that.
      Fael Illyar: well, not everyone but many enough that it makes sense to not tell them that
      Fael Illyar: that the boss is not there.
      Mickorod Renard: I have lied to save my image
      Mickorod Renard: and dont feel good about that
      Mickorod Renard: but may well do it again
      arabella Ella: lies which do not have evil intent are often used as a means towards self preservation or to protect those near and dear to us
      Mickorod Renard: there is always a risk they will dig a big hole for you to fall into
      Udge Watanabe: oh yes.
      Fael Illyar: yes, I avoid lying whenever I can because of that.
      Mickorod Renard: sometimes its easier to take the punishment for a minor transgression than for lying
      arabella Ella: yes i find ppl who are compulsive liars are hardly ever believed as their reputation emerges

      Udge Watanabe: it'S nearly midnight, I should get to bed. Goodnight, everyone.
      arabella Ella: One of the key issues involved with lying is loss of trust when the truth emerges ... and that can be serious
      Fael Illyar: Good night Udge :)
      Mickorod Renard: nite,,thanks for commin
      arabella Ella: nite Udge ... nearly midnight here too :)
      Fael Illyar: way past midnight here :)

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