2009.04.21 13:00 - Dream on and on

The Guardian for this meeting was Mickorod Renard. The comments are by Mickorod Renard.

Mickorod Renard: has everyone had a nice day so far?
Udge Watanabe: quite fair, thanks. And you?
genesis Zhangsun: :) allergies
Corvuscorva Nightfire: a beautiful day.
genesis Zhangsun: stuffy head
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Mickorod Renard: great,,bar the allergies Gen
Mickorod Renard: my day was fine too,,very busy though
Mickorod Renard: school is back in full swing
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Scath
Fael Illyar: Hi Scath :)
Udge Watanabe: hi scath
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Scath
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fael, Udge, Gen, Mick, Corvi
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Scath
Mickorod Renard: its funny how you can feel all chilled and relaxed after these sessions,,then as soon as you step into work all hell breaks loose
Corvuscorva Nightfire nods.
Fael Illyar: it's all a matter perspective :)
Udge Watanabe: yeah
Fael Illyar: entirely possible to be chilled and relaxed in the middle of all hell breaking loose :)
Udge Watanabe: :)
Fael Illyar: (no, not saying anything about how easy that might be)
Mickorod Renard: well i am pretty relaxed at work by comparison,,but non the less,,its hard to keep focussed on being chilled
Mickorod Renard: oops
Fael Illyar: well, the key really is not focusing :)
Fael Illyar: Hi Sophia :)
Mickorod Renard: Hi Sophie
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Sophia
Udge Watanabe: hello sophia
sophia Placebo: hi genesis , scath udge
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Sophia.
Mickorod Renard: yes,,a sort of go with the flow,,but our own flow rather than other peoples chaos
sophia Placebo: hi corv
Mickorod Renard: I am glad the sunshine has arrived in the Uk at last
Fael Illyar: Yes, sunshine is nice :)
Mickorod Renard: it has a wonderful uplifting quality
Udge Watanabe nods
Mickorod Renard: has anyone any interesting topics to share?
Mickorod Renard: Hi sophia sharon
Fael Illyar: Hi SophiaSharon :)
sophia Placebo: hi sophia
Udge Watanabe: hello sophiasharon
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello SophiaSharon
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: HI all
genesis Zhangsun: Hi SophiaSharon
SophiaSharon Larnia waves
Mickorod Renard: I must get around to reading Maxines dream / time log
Mickorod Renard: it sounded really interesting
Udge Watanabe: it's been posted already, btw, I just looked
Mickorod Renard: great
Udge Watanabe: it was a great session ...
Mickorod Renard: what did you find most interesting Udge?
Udge Watanabe: well, hard to pick a single aspect. I'm curious about predictive dreaming, which many people seem to have experienced
Udge Watanabe: *seemed
Udge Watanabe: (not me)
Mickorod Renard: I have had a few experiences
Mickorod Renard: not quite predictive
Mickorod Renard: but being extraordinary,,and then becoming reality
sophia Placebo: i agree with mick in his discreption
Mickorod Renard: once I quoted a whole song and video of a record that didnt come out for a year or two afterwards
Udge Watanabe: wow
SophiaSharon Larnia: wow
sophia Placebo: intresting
SophiaSharon Larnia: I call it the 'Random' Mickorod, but that doesn't sound random
Mickorod Renard: I told lots of friends about it as it was so profound,,then to thier suprise it happened
sophia Placebo: was it a good song?
Mickorod Renard: yes
Fael Illyar: who knows, maybe we actually have you to thank for having the song ;)
Mickorod Renard: another was the dream of a distraught woman calling out her daughters name

Mickorod Renard: the name was unusual,,i woke up in a terible state and insisted that my partner remember the name should i forget
Mickorod Renard: afterward i felt disturbed by it as i felt It was a massage
Mickorod Renard: message
Mickorod Renard: one year later,,the girl was lost,,the one with the odd name
sophia Placebo: what did you feel back then? when it come to reality
Mickorod Renard: I cannot say,,,a mix of shock but also resignment
Mickorod Renard: one thing these things pose to me is that it suggests that something can transcend time
Mickorod Renard: and if so,,puts a diferent perspective on things
SophiaSharon Larnia: like a personal type of proof that time is not linear
Mickorod Renard: I have never had a dream showing anything useful personally,,like the lottery numbers
sophia Placebo: niether do i
Mickorod Renard: yes,,,ui dont expect anyone else to take anything from it,,as its personal,,but for me its very wierd
Mickorod Renard: another thing that i find interesting is
Mickorod Renard: I have recounted several of these dreams to my partner and friends,,yet oddly they thinmk it is nothing,,yet to me its profound
Udge Watanabe: I can't imagine thinking that such a dream is "nothing"
Udge Watanabe: seems very much the worng word, though I can't find a better one.
SophiaSharon Larnia: I keep thinking this should be useful smehow
Mickorod Renard: nor me,,but even with the info up front,,and sort of proven to them,,they think its a trick
Udge Watanabe nods.
Udge Watanabe: it's hard to know what to do about it. If a stranger approached you and said "I had a dream in which your mother was calling your name in distress", would that help you in any way?
Udge Watanabe: Unless your dream helpfully included what was happening, who did it ...
Udge Watanabe: and even then: would you believe the stranger?
Fael Illyar: also, doesn't seem likely you saw the dream just by chance.
Mickorod Renard: I have concluded that the dreams are a personal message just for me,,as they are of no use to me,,but they show me something beyond ,,something extra
Fael Illyar: but, if seeing the dream has a purpose, it clearly isn't to change what it showed.
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh? I did not think of it that way Fael
Mickorod Renard: i think they are to keep me questioning
Fael Illyar: also, did you talk to the girl in question?
Mickorod Renard: I only saw the mother in the dream
Mickorod Renard: and it was about distress
Fael Illyar: what I'm going at is, was there anything you wouldn't have done if you hadn't seen the dream?
Mickorod Renard: at least 2 things come to mind
Mickorod Renard: one is that I may have become complacent in the facination of them,,as they arrive with long periods without
Mickorod Renard: and secondly, I may not have felt the compassion for the loss the parents felt,,as its normal to just think of the child
Fael Illyar: Ah, yes, that might well be the dreams purpose.
Fael Illyar: number 2
Mickorod Renard: the child didnt feature at all,,just the mother
Mickorod Renard: but the name was significant,,as when asleep,,i forced myself to wake,,if fact my jaw was still frozen in sleep and I couldnt even talk,,but i had to utter the name of the child
Fael Illyar: Hi Fefonz :)
Mickorod Renard: Hiya Fefonz
Corvuscorva Nightfire: Hi, Fefonz
Scathach Rhiadra: Hello Fefonz
Fefonz Quan: Hello everyone :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: Hi Fefonz
Udge Watanabe: hello fefonz
sophia Placebo: hi fef
sophia Placebo: that is scary mick , or wasnt it?
Mickorod Renard: I felt guilt for a long time because I thought i may have a gift to save people that i wasnt using
Udge Watanabe nods
Udge Watanabe: actually, that is why I asked you earlier...
Mickorod Renard: but I have no control over them
SophiaSharon Larnia: i suspect that others do too Mickorod, your experience is very specific and perhaps most are not, but I thinkmany people have synchronistic type dreams and talk about it
SophiaSharon Larnia: don't talk * i meant
Mickorod Renard: whats sychronistic?
Fefonz Quan: (i guess we already started the dream workshop of today:))
Mickorod Renard: yeaaa
Udge Watanabe: :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: sorry i spelled wrong, dreaming something, and a similiar event presents itself in your life, those are the kinds of dreams I have
Mickorod Renard: i dont usually talk about them in public
SophiaSharon Larnia: not exact
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Mickorod Renard: ahh I see,,,like the deja vu thing
SophiaSharon Larnia: yes
Mickorod Renard: I have tried very hard to dismiss my experiences,,as they are not comfortable to carry
Fael Illyar: why not?
Mickorod Renard: there is a likelyhood people will think I am nuts
sophia Placebo: :)
Udge Watanabe grins and nods
Fael Illyar: only if you talk about the experiences :)
Mickorod Renard: and as i said earlier,,there is a frustration too
Mickorod Renard: that they have no tangiable worth
Fael Illyar: why would tangible worth be more important than having them?
Fael Illyar: having had the experience
Mickorod Renard: well,,i would prefer ordinary dreams,,these leave me feeling bothered,,they have a diferent taste,,if u know what i mean
Fael Illyar: so... you know a small detail of the future .... why would that bother you?
Fefonz Quan: it might be handy if this is the stock market of tomorrow...
Fael Illyar: definitely :)
Mickorod Renard: I have come to realise that we all have a sort of cross to bear in life,,,all diferent and personal,,,mine is control
Udge Watanabe: or if the dream included details that you could pass on to the person, that might convince them to listen and/or tell them what to avoid
Fael Illyar: but then the dream wouldn't be dream that tells the future but a warning
Mickorod Renard: i have to try and stop controlling,,what is given me are tests
Fael Illyar can't help flinching at the will to control in that sentence.
Mickorod Renard: what would i do if i mastered the art of dreaming of future events
Fefonz Quan: minority report?
Mickorod Renard: he he eh
Fael Illyar: whatever is the source of those dreams, might not agree with the usage...
Mickorod Renard: thats the point,,its a game
sophia Placebo: g2g, see you later all
Mickorod Renard: bye Sophie
Fael Illyar: see you later sophia
Scathach Rhiadra: bye sophia
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye sophia
Fael Illyar: but the real question is, why do you need to learn to control the dreams?
Fefonz Quan: maybe just accepting these happenings Mick, without putting to much effort in understanding/using/finding purpose might help
Mickorod Renard: well,,that is because at the moment the dreams do not provide useful information
Fefonz Quan: well, i have tons of dreams that don't provide useful information
Mickorod Renard: yes,,that is the point..like karma
Fefonz Quan: i don't letr them interrupt my sleep, sort of speak
Fael Illyar: depends a bit on your definition of 'useful' :)
SophiaSharon Larnia: they do seem to serve a purpose, other than proding your attention
Mickorod Renard: yes,,i can sit here now and say,,i would only use them to save people,,,,,but i know that temptation is too much for me still
Udge Watanabe nods
Fefonz Quan: did you use them for other cause till now?
Fael Illyar: yes, which is probably why you don't get anything 'useful' from them.
Mickorod Renard: exactly
Mickorod Renard: I have to become more pure in actions
Fael Illyar flinches again at the will to control.
Mickorod Renard: and this is a sort of breaking effect on my control issue
SophiaSharon Larnia: are you in a particular state of mind when these occur Mickorod?
Fael Illyar: will to control... or in other words, the will to decide how things go.
Fefonz Quan: This 1am sessin Susi talked a lot about understanding dreams, and it looks like he have a lot of experience with that. you might ask hius advice
Mickorod Renard: ok cool..thanks fef
Fefonz Quan: has*
Mickorod Renard: Fael, yes i have had several dreams of this nature,,but non due to a particulatr state of mind
Fael Illyar: (SophiaSharon asked that :)
Mickorod Renard: soory;)
Mickorod Renard: sorry
Scathach Rhiadra: I must be off, good night all, Namasté
Fael Illyar: see you later Scath :)
Mickorod Renard: as a child I had wierd dreams when i had things like a bad cold
SophiaSharon Larnia: bye scathach
Mickorod Renard: nite Scath
Fefonz Quan: i will leave too, bye all :)
Mickorod Renard: bye Fef
Fael Illyar: ah, yes, me too, I had quite weird dreams. Especially when sick.
Mickorod Renard: yes,,with a high temprature?
Fael Illyar: yep
Fael Illyar: like one nightmare where I became a fish :)
Mickorod Renard: lol
SophiaSharon Larnia: oh!
Mickorod Renard: what happened ?
Fael Illyar: don't remember all that clearly anymore :)
Fael Illyar: just that I became a fish and was horrified about it :)
Fael Illyar: not about becoming the fish but what it would mean for my future :)
Mickorod Renard: grin,,they can leave something behind,,like a memory of the feeling not the events?
Mickorod Renard: oops
SophiaSharon Larnia: i must go too, bye all :))
Fael Illyar: see you later SophiaSharon :)
Mickorod Renard: bye sophie
Udge Watanabe: bye SS
SophiaSharon Larnia: see you later
Fael Illyar: controlling is something that feels very much doing to me... to define what would be the non-doing version of it ...
Fael Illyar: will to control, is the will to decide how things will go. non-doing version would be to guide how things go but accept the result, however it goes.
Mickorod Renard: yes,,nice way of looking at it
Mickorod Renard: I now have to think on the lines that i have control over how i act in the world,,and not in my future
Mickorod Renard: there is a saying about money,,but i think its good for life in general
Mickorod Renard: look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves
Fael Illyar: :)
Fael Illyar: so, take care of the details and the bigger issues will take care of themselves.
Fael Illyar likes it.
Mickorod Renard: yes
Udge Watanabe: it might be restated as "you can't solve big issues by ignoring little ones" :)
Mickorod Renard: yea
Fael Illyar: Yes, that too :)
Mickorod Renard: the karma thing is a good idea
Mickorod Renard: i have just started to appreciate it
Fael Illyar: I find it a bit vague term :)
Fael Illyar: never know what someone means when they say the word :)
Mickorod Renard: i didnt either,,but we have had some in depth discussions lately
Mickorod Renard: with stim too
Mickorod Renard: hi ara
Udge Watanabe: "what goes around, comes around" perhaps; or "reap what you sow"
Mickorod Renard: yep
Udge Watanabe: hello arabella
arabella Ella: Hiya!
Fael Illyar: Hi arabella :)
arabella Ella: I know I am very late but was wondering whether you guys were still here :)
Mickorod Renard: I think most religions have something like karma
Mickorod Renard: I think its worth not overlooking the small things in life
Fael Illyar: yes, those are usually the more important ones :)
Mickorod Renard: yes..even little lies are not good
Corvuscorva Nightfire: I gotta go...see ya'll.
Udge Watanabe: goodnight corvi
arabella Ella: bye Corvi
Fael Illyar waves 'See you later Corvi.'
Mickorod Renard: nite corv
arabella Ella: yes why not?
Mickorod Renard: ?
arabella Ella: Mick would u not even say a white lie to save your own family or your own job?
Mickorod Renard: well,,funny session tonite
arabella Ella: if the stakes were really high?
Mickorod Renard: yes,,even a big lie
Udge Watanabe: agreed, I came to feel the same way while living in England
arabella Ella: so would a little lie to save your family or your job be a bad thing too?
Mickorod Renard: but,,i would at first question why i wud need too
Fael Illyar: I think it's more about lying to yourself
Udge Watanabe: just becuse something is true, doesn't mean you have to say it. Truth is not a blunt weapon
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: fortunately i manage to be open and honest in life,,but yes, i wud lie to save
Fael Illyar: yep, truth is something that can be left unsaid.
arabella Ella: but come on ... what if you could lose your job for being late so you said you had a flat tire or something similar? to save your livlihood ... survival instinct?
Mickorod Renard: I find its easier to live in a life where lies are not needed,,but someplaces,,or circumstances present dificult options
arabella Ella nods
Mickorod Renard: I am lucky that my workplace is flexible to things like that
arabella Ella: yes you are ... but it was just one example
Mickorod Renard: and,,somewhere draconian,,well i wouldnt have that respect for that sort of regime
arabella Ella: i think we also lie sometimes to protect others who are near and dear and we may even rationalise and believe the lies we may say
arabella Ella: our rationality sometimes may give us a weird perspective on things to make them seem the way we wish threm to be
Fael Illyar: yes, we even lie to ourselves to do that sometimes. To protect them from ourself.
arabella Ella: so then i would also question what lying is
arabella Ella nods
arabella Ella: i think lying is bad only if the intention is evil or bad
arabella Ella: to cause harm to others
Udge Watanabe: we need to distinguish between hurtful and lubricating lies.
arabella Ella: and there are degrees of course
Udge Watanabe: society needs lies like machines need oil.
Mickorod Renard: at the point of lying,,i believe its time to ask serious questions,,about why it was nessesary
Fael Illyar: the lies that are necessary are necessary to counter other lies.
arabella Ella: yes Udge take politicians ... I think most of them lie quite often in public to present a picture that is not always 100 percent correct
Udge Watanabe: not necessarily.
Udge Watanabe: I lie to our customers when I say that the boss is in a meeting, when in fact he hasn't had time to read the e-mail that they want to discuss with him
arabella Ella: another example ... making others feel valued or increasing their self esteem may require white lies too ... what;s the harm there?
Fael Illyar: udge, that is countering your Boss's lie of having rad the email
Fael Illyar: well, not quite so exact bu close enough
Udge Watanabe: whose lives would be improved if I said "your mail wasn't important enough for him to read yet"?
arabella Ella agrees with Udge
Fael Illyar: or perhaps the customers lie to themselves that their message has been read.
Udge Watanabe: well, they have a reasonable expetation that it would be read :) just not yet.
arabella Ella: in the past I often had to say the boss was out when he wasn't
Fael Illyar: oh wait wait, I'm still looking in the wrong place :)
Mickorod Renard: maybe the illussion we create for ourselves is what has formulated due to lies,,either from others trying to elevate us,,or by idealism in our own ego's
arabella Ella: it was part of a job
Fael Illyar: it's the lie that expectation is based on.
Udge Watanabe: for myself, I try not to do that. I try to say honestly "I haven't read that yet, can I call you back this evening?"
Fael Illyar: if you told them the truth, they'd wreak havoc with the lie that their message should've been read already.
Udge Watanabe: most people do accept that.
Fael Illyar: well, not everyone but many enough that it makes sense to not tell them that
Fael Illyar: that the boss is not there.
Mickorod Renard: I have lied to save my image
Mickorod Renard: and dont feel good about that
Mickorod Renard: but may well do it again
arabella Ella: lies which do not have evil intent are often used as a means towards self preservation or to protect those near and dear to us
Mickorod Renard: there is always a risk they will dig a big hole for you to fall into
Udge Watanabe: oh yes.
Fael Illyar: yes, I avoid lying whenever I can because of that.
Mickorod Renard: sometimes its easier to take the punishment for a minor transgression than for lying
arabella Ella: yes i find ppl who are compulsive liars are hardly ever believed as their reputation emerges

Udge Watanabe: it'S nearly midnight, I should get to bed. Goodnight, everyone.
arabella Ella: One of the key issues involved with lying is loss of trust when the truth emerges ... and that can be serious
Fael Illyar: Good night Udge :)
Mickorod Renard: nite,,thanks for commin
arabella Ella: nite Udge ... nearly midnight here too :)
Fael Illyar: way past midnight here :)