2009.04.22 13:00 - (Limitation of words)

Guardian for this meeting was genesis Zhangsun. The comments are by genesis Zhangsun.

Pila Mulligan: hi Qt
Qt Core: hi Pila
Pila Mulligan: hi genesis
Qt Core: hi genesis
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Qt and Pila!
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: hi Tenzin
Qt Core: hi Tenzin
Tenzin Xue takes a most humble bow
Pila Mulligan: :)
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Tenzin
Tenzin Xue: hi
genesis Zhangsun: anyone have any topics of interest?
Tenzin Xue: i'm new. i don't really know whats going on.
Pila Mulligan: genesis, would oyu like to introduce tenzin to PaB?
genesis Zhangsun: ah sure
genesis Zhangsun: So PaB is a group exploration of reality
genesis Zhangsun: we have discussions here four times a day 7am,1pm,7pm,1am
Tenzin Xue: i see
Tenzin Xue: what do you discuss?
genesis Zhangsun: all of our transcripts are recorded and put up on our wiki http://playasbeing.wik.is/
genesis Zhangsun: would you object to having your name and comments included?
Tenzin Xue: no
Tenzin Xue: no objections
Pila Mulligan: hi aurel
genesis Zhangsun: our practice as a group centers around a simple nine second practice
aurel Miles: hi Pila, Gen, Tenzin and QT
Qt Core: hi aurel
Tenzin Xue: :D
genesis Zhangsun: here during the meetings we observe 90 seconds
genesis Zhangsun: every fifteen minutes
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Aurel I am giving Tenzin a bit of backgroun
aurel Miles: that's nice
genesis Zhangsun: the idea is about integration
aurel Miles: i never had a formal introduction so i am glad to hear it
genesis Zhangsun: to carry a sense of mindfulness throughout the day
genesis Zhangsun: not just during a sitting meditation
genesis Zhangsun: there are various other formulations with regards to integration and mindfulness
Tenzin Xue: i see
genesis Zhangsun: which we practice, these other forumulations emphasize appreciation
genesis Zhangsun: the idea is to "play as being"
genesis Zhangsun: as the group is called
Pila Mulligan: hi steve (... genesis is introducing Tenxin to PaB)
genesis Zhangsun: to appreciate the play of life, the dance of being
aurel Miles: hi steve
genesis Zhangsun: HI Steve
stevenaia Michinaga: hi
genesis Zhangsun: with the idea that this play if enogh
genesis Zhangsun: *enough
genesis Zhangsun: *is enough
genesis Zhangsun: recently it has been formulated as "the illusion of illusion"
genesis Zhangsun: we often have the feeling that there is something to break through, an illusion to break to get to reality
genesis Zhangsun: but the idea with is to see even this thinking as a sort of illusion
Pila Mulligan: hi Fefonz
genesis Zhangsun: HI Fefonz
Pila Mulligan: www.kira.org has even more information and events, Tenzin :)
Tenzin Xue: hai
Qt Core: hi Fefonz
Tenzin Xue: i mean yes
Fefonz Quan: Hello all :)
Tenzin Xue: sorry, japanese
aurel Miles: hello fefonz
genesis Zhangsun: Tenzin would you like to say something about your orientation?
Tenzin Xue: I really like the idea of mindfullness every 15 minutes
Tenzin Xue: its a very nice idea
Tenzin Xue: It's good for people who are very busy.
Tenzin Xue: lol
Pila Mulligan: :)
Tenzin Xue: so quiet.
Tenzin Xue: ...
Fefonz Quan: also good for people who are not very busy but very wonder-minded
Tenzin Xue: yes
genesis Zhangsun: catch the monkey by the tail every fifteen minutes as I think of it
Tenzin Xue: very nice metaphor
genesis Zhangsun: busy and wandering monkey
Pila Mulligan: sometimes we get so absorbed with mindfulness we just sit around here in quiet :)
Tenzin Xue: no kidding haha
Tenzin Xue: what do you talk about most of the time?
Pila Mulligan: sometimes we say a lot :)
Pila Mulligan: hmm, dreams have been apopular subject lately
genesis Zhangsun: sometimes we compare notes about how various explorations are going
genesis Zhangsun: or themes like Pila mentioned
Tenzin Xue: someone might wanna claim this session as the guardian lol
genesis Zhangsun: oops thanks
genesis Zhangsun: I am interested in discussing the theme of illusion of illusion
genesis Zhangsun: any thoughts on this topic?
Fefonz Quan: go on.
Pila Mulligan: :)
stevenaia Michinaga: is sounds like it could be the illusion of anything, including illusion
Pila Mulligan: reminds me or mirrors facing each opther
Fefonz Quan: we might start by explaning what it means...
genesis Zhangsun: yes so what I think it means is that we have some notion that we need to break through an illusion to get to reality
genesis Zhangsun: but the illusions themeselves are an illusion
Tenzin Xue: but what is reality, and why are we trying to get to it?
Tenzin Xue: curiousity?
genesis Zhangsun: there really is no breaking, no progression, no realization, no time, no change
genesis Zhangsun: yes I think curiosity is in a way playful investigation
Pila Mulligan: that's where the ice cream is
Fefonz Quan: do you feel there is no change Gen?
Tenzin Xue: everything is change
stevenaia Michinaga: I agree that reality can be as much an illusion as anything else
Tenzin Xue: impermanence
Tenzin Xue: nothing ever stays the same
Fefonz Quan: Steve, would you say that when a stone fall on your leg?
genesis Zhangsun: no indeed nothing ever stays the same but what I mean by no change is like the way in which there really was no change "per se" after the Copernican revolution
genesis Zhangsun: people just understood for the first time the relationship between the earth and the sun as it truly was
stevenaia Michinaga: if I were to say it... it would be an illusion for someone else, perhaps that might be the explanation of my reality however
stevenaia Michinaga: their illusion
Fefonz Quan: yes, but going to wnother ersons illusion you are dodging your reality Steve
Fefonz Quan: (for Gen) So there was a huge change in perception
Fefonz Quan: another persons*
Pila Mulligan: ... and, as it was in the time of Copernicus, doctrinal dipsutes are still the bedrock of sectarian life
stevenaia Michinaga: well..... let we mork with my pain for a moment and I'll get back to you
stevenaia Michinaga: work
genesis Zhangsun: yes indeed changes in perception but the fact was everyone was seeing it all the time
Pila Mulligan: hi Eliza
genesis Zhangsun: they just didn't know what they were seeing
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Eliza
Fefonz Quan: did they? i think they didn;t.
genesis Zhangsun: just like things in our life
aurel Miles: the passage of time seems to turn everything to illusion
Fefonz Quan: infact they so the opposite thing, the sun is circling us
Fefonz Quan: saw*
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Pila, everyone :)
aurel Miles: Hi Eliza
genesis Zhangsun: indeeed Fefonz but the people who truly investigating the matter probably did see that persecpective could not hold true
genesis Zhangsun: and when they finally saw the truth they realized that they were always seeing it this way
genesis Zhangsun: I think this is often how it is with personal insight too
Tenzin Xue: We percieve things and we give them names and emotions and stories and call them objects. That is the illusion.
Fefonz Quan: i tend to disagree, but this is surely just a metaphor
Tenzin Xue: IMO lol
genesis Zhangsun: did you ever have an realization about something in your life Fefonz? ;) and then saw that you had always known it
genesis Zhangsun: but it was obscured from view until a certain moment?
Fefonz Quan: well, that's the thing, mostly when i had realization, i didn't see it before.
genesis Zhangsun: but after you saw it, did it seem completely familiar and clear to you
genesis Zhangsun: like aha the answer was always there but you just didn't see it
Fefonz Quan: sometimes, and sometimes it seemmed new and beautiful
Qt Core: have to go, bye all
genesis Zhangsun: bye Qt
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Qt
Fefonz Quan: Bye Qt.
aurel Miles: the phenomenon of body memories illustrates that clearly
stevenaia Michinaga: bye Qt
aurel Miles: bye Qt
genesis Zhangsun: [13:30] aurel Miles: the passage of time seems to turn everything to illusion
Fefonz Quan: that's why i have difficulties with teh 'we already new it' notion
genesis Zhangsun: Aurel could you say a bit more about this?
aurel Miles: people carry body memories for years - they learn to live around the,
aurel Miles: sure
aurel Miles: i was thinking about the illusory quality of memory
aurel Miles: and how swiftly experiences passes into that realm
stevenaia Michinaga: I think I was speaking of the difference between experience or perception, and the interpretation of that experience
aurel Miles: we've been talking about life as a movie we live
aurel Miles: from time to time
aurel Miles: and i've been refreshinbg my film studies well
Fefonz Quan: yes Steve, that is ineresting
aurel Miles: sorry
aurel Miles: go on, steve
Fefonz Quan: (no i am sorry if interupting)
stevenaia Michinaga: there is a moment where it is reality, after that it desolves into illusion, the rock becomes in contact and manipulates nerves shooting electricity to the brain, the brain interperates this and the illusion begins, is it pain, is it funny, is it a memory worth learing from
stevenaia Michinaga: *learning
Fefonz Quan: so you say the illusion is not the pmpact, but the interpretation
Fefonz Quan: impact*
stevenaia Michinaga: yes
stevenaia Michinaga: how often is pain (even our own) funny
genesis Zhangsun: seems like the two are difficult to separate
Fefonz Quan: other tend to be funnier somehow ;-)
genesis Zhangsun: the impact and interpretation
Fefonz Quan: others*
genesis Zhangsun: can we truly separate them?
genesis Zhangsun: would we want to try?
Fefonz Quan agree with genesis, thoguh on some level we can seperate them
stevenaia Michinaga: tough to fabricate illusion w/o reality
genesis Zhangsun: or by accepting the illusive nature of our existence fall back into reality
Fefonz Quan: on the level of the angry/calm reaction it is more easy to seperate
stevenaia Michinaga: what is the "angry/calm reaction"
Fefonz Quan: like the reaction ' why does it happen to me', etc.
Pila Mulligan: I agree with my understanding of Tenzin's comment, that the moment we begin to divide Being into parts and attributes, we set ourselves onto a path that inexorably leads to confusion ([13:32] Tenzin Xue: We percieve things and we give them names and emotions and stories and call them objects. That is the illusion) -- but that is how the mind likes to work/play, by making distinctions of things
Tenzin Xue: :D
genesis Zhangsun: yes me too Pila
genesis Zhangsun: and Tenzin :)
Fefonz Quan nods
Pila Mulligan: hi arabella
genesis Zhangsun: Hi Arabella
Tenzin Xue: :D
arabella Ella: Hiya everyone!
Pila Mulligan: but there's still the ice cream, and minds will be minds
Eliza Madrigal: Hi Arabella
Eliza Madrigal: Why reactiveness varies so greatly from one person to another, because it happens before the rock hits...that division, in some sense?
Fefonz Quan: though in a way, if i understood Pema's email, 'the illusion of illusion' says that we can't also say that reality is merely an illusion
Fefonz Quan: Hi Ara
Pila Mulligan: reality is reality but how can we describe it?
arabella Ella: Hiya Fefonz!
stevenaia Michinaga: I am not one who would ask why I deserve to be hit
stevenaia Michinaga: rocks being rocks
Fefonz Quan: (and sometimes 30 rocks :))
stevenaia Michinaga: :)
Fefonz Quan: if i can go back to Pila's point, naming names is elusive, but then wihtout them how can one eat the ice cream>?
Pila Mulligan: precisely, Fefonz
Pila Mulligan: I'd like to order some __________
Fefonz Quan: and then yuo get a banana, yikes
Pila Mulligan: what flavor -- oh, how about _________
Tenzin Xue: no habla espanol lol
Tenzin Xue: or french
Pila Mulligan: do you like _____? no, I prefer ______ :)
Pila Mulligan: lol
Tenzin Xue: i like the blanks
Pila Mulligan: so we have to use words
Pila Mulligan: ok, we have to use ________
Fefonz Quan: no, ____ prefer _____
Tenzin Xue: words are only needed for communication lol
Tenzin Xue: if we were hermits we could be silent lol
Pila Mulligan: so how do we describe ________?
Tenzin Xue: ___________.
Pila Mulligan: aha
Eliza Madrigal: :)
Fefonz Quan: i can seethe title of this session coming: '____________'
Tenzin Xue: ah g2g
Pila Mulligan: bye Tenzin
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Tenzin
Tenzin Xue takes a most humble bow
Pila Mulligan: :)
Fefonz Quan: Bye Tenzin
Tenzin Xue: bye~!
aurel Miles: Bye Tenzin
genesis Zhangsun: bye Tenzin
genesis Zhangsun: _____ Tenzin
Pila Mulligan: :)
genesis Zhangsun: __ _____
Pila Mulligan: _________, ____ _____ :)
Fefonz Quan ____
stevenaia Michinaga: ___!!!!
arabella Ella: this conversation is so easy to follow I can choose to fill in the blanks as i wish :)
Pila Mulligan: illusions of illusions
genesis Zhangsun: :)
Fefonz Quan: hehe
Pila Mulligan: the model of heliocentrism credited to Copernicus presists in history, but it more ancient philsophers in various cultures also embraced heliocentrism -- part of the importance of Copernicus was the doctrine that he confronted
Pila Mulligan: if we get stopped for speeding and asked something by a cop, we need to say more than ___________
Pila Mulligan: so we need words
Fefonz Quan: we can explain to him that time, hence speed, are illusiory
Fefonz Quan: ;-)
arabella Ella: is it not part of human nature to communicate, with words gestures or non verbally
Pila Mulligan: and Fefonz, if he is nice, he will, say 'aye lad, and this ticket is a mirage' :)
Pila Mulligan: and hwere would scinece be without symbols
arabella Ella: what about thoughts
Fefonz Quan: But Pila, this is the illusion of illusion in a way. In one sense the world is 'kind of' illusiory, but within it there is still realness to it, so calling it 'toatl illusary' is also a wrong view
Fefonz Quan: total*
genesis Zhangsun: well I must run!
Pila Mulligan: bye genesis
Pila Mulligan: thanks
Eliza Madrigal: Bye gen.
genesis Zhangsun: bye everyone!
arabella Ella: bye gen
Pila Mulligan: I agree, Fefonz, there are degrees of realness, but in the sense that aurel mentioned about thoughts, there are degrees of words
Fefonz Quan nods
Pila Mulligan: some thoughts are wordy, some are more imagery
Pila Mulligan: reality seems more susceptible to images than words
Pila Mulligan: in terms of description
Pila Mulligan: but images lead to wrods
Pila Mulligan: and words lead to debate
Fefonz Quan: in a way words lead to images too
Pila Mulligan: and that supports all kinds of insitutions
Pila Mulligan: yes, words are most helpful when the lead to real images
Pila Mulligan: they*
Fefonz Quan: need to go, buy folks :)
Pila Mulligan: bye Fefonz
arabella Ella: bye Fef
stevenaia Michinaga: yes same here, see you tonight
Pila Mulligan: bye Steve
arabella Ella: bye steve
Eliza Madrigal: Bye Steven
Eliza Madrigal: We may not need quite so many words as we think we do...lke using the same tool because just it is closest
aurel Miles: bye
Pila Mulligan: the 90 second break helps us keep words in balance
arabella Ella: but a rich language helps us to communicate both ideas and concepts to others
arabella Ella: and after all it is words we use here to communicate
Eliza Madrigal: Yes, absolutely. I'm all for rich and textured language
arabella Ella: yes those of us who enjoy reading prefer to read stuff that is rich textually
Eliza Madrigal: And yet sometimes the rests between the words aren't given equal importance
Pila Mulligan: I was reading about a British university philopshy class using SL, and they early on developed emotion scripts to help them express throughts
Pila Mulligan: in their class
arabella Ella: do you have more info Pila about this as it sounds intruiging
Eliza Madrigal: certainly
Pila Mulligan: SL deprives us of some of the emotional content of our words that would be seen or felt in personal meetings
Pila Mulligan: let me see if I can find it
arabella Ella nods
aurel Miles: i think that's one of sl's strengths
aurel Miles: you must choose your words carefully
aurel Miles: and unintentioned stressors are less likely to manifest
arabella Ella: the sole use of words for chat implies getting to know the real 'essence' of others on SL when we make the effort
aurel Miles: i think you mean "impedes"
aurel Miles: but i disagree
aurel Miles: i think sl has distinct strengths
arabella Ella: no aurel I do not mean impedes ... I feel I have got to know the real person behind the avi and what I mean is that pure chat does not involve any distracting image
aurel Miles: that allow it to provide a door to different ways of knmowing
aurel Miles: well Arabella
aurel Miles: in that case
aurel Miles: i don't know what you mean by
aurel Miles: one sec - i'll clip it
aurel Miles: he sole use of words for chat implies getting to know the real 'essence' of others on SL when we make the effort
Pila Mulligan: http://magazine.openhabitat.org/tal/...rs-perspective
aurel Miles: how does the use of words for chat imply anything?
arabella Ella: thanks Pila ... gimmi a mom to copy link
aurel Miles: i can't grasp your context
Pila Mulligan: also interesting: http://secondphilosophy.wordpress.co...short-courses/
aurel Miles: so i may have misunderstood
Eliza Madrigal: I'm a wordy girl...prefer letters to phone calls and such, however I find pure chat lacking. SL has other cues along with...and rests. At least in this context and the ones I tend to be drawn to. :)
Eliza Madrigal: Ah...there is the bat signal for me...must go :)
Eliza Madrigal: Bye everyone!
aurel Miles: and me as well
aurel Miles: bye
Pila Mulligan: bye
arabella Ella: bye Eliza
arabella Ella: Pity aurel did not give me the opportunity to respond to her question as I was busy copying your links on a notecard Pila
Pila Mulligan: in some settings SL chats seem to provide the careful discussion you referred to
Pila Mulligan: in some they don't :)
arabella Ella: but what I meant was that we do not have the same images to distract us in SL as we do in RL
Pila Mulligan: yes, I understand
Pila Mulligan: we are on a kind of more mental level
arabella Ella: and we don't bring our RL baggage into SL ... in the sense of status, age, appearance, family etc
Pila Mulligan: less visual, more thought
Pila Mulligan: yep
arabella Ella: exactly
Pila Mulligan: but then we do have the visual image of the avi
Pila Mulligan: for what it is worth
arabella Ella: where I come from I am always assessed as the daughter of so and so or the person who did _____ (whatever) etc
Pila Mulligan: :)
arabella Ella: yes but I for one do not give much importance to avi image in SL at all altho i may be an exception
Pila Mulligan: well, one aspect of the avi is that the person behind it gets to present their chosen self-image -- even if the gender, age, appearance, etc. is not consistent with their real life body
arabella Ella: Pila may I ask you something please
Pila Mulligan: please
arabella Ella: the other day you spoke about the importance of breathing
arabella Ella: for contemplation
Pila Mulligan: yes
arabella Ella: how can one best practice that in an attempt to build up the skill?
arabella Ella: mainly cos i was impressed with the importance you placed on breathing
Pila Mulligan: do you have any existing or fromer practices?
Pila Mulligan: yoga, meditaiotn, etc?
arabella Ella: unfortunately not
Pila Mulligan: ok
arabella Ella: just a short spell of tai chi
arabella Ella: so nothing much
Pila Mulligan: well, this is actually better donein person
Pila Mulligan: but we can try
arabella Ella: yes pls if you dont mind
Pila Mulligan: breath energy is cleansing
arabella Ella: yes
Pila Mulligan: inhalation is one part -- it feeds us energy
Pila Mulligan: exhalation is important also -- it hepls with the cleansing
Pila Mulligan: so we do both well and we get the best of it
Pila Mulligan: now the first thing is to think about how a baby breathes
arabella Ella: yes ... and it all leads to a calmer and more harmonious self
Pila Mulligan: yep :)
arabella Ella: yes
Pila Mulligan: when you watch a baby breathinig, what do you see, physically?
arabella Ella thinking
Pila Mulligan: :)
Pila Mulligan: it's their tummy
arabella Ella: generally speaking tranquility
arabella Ella: yes
Pila Mulligan: their tummy is going in and out regularly
arabella Ella: sorry i have some lag at times
Pila Mulligan: they are quite at peace, but their tummy is quite active
Pila Mulligan: ok :)
Pila Mulligan: so here's this peaceful being enjoying the benefit of belly breathing
Pila Mulligan: as we get older we tend to change from belly breathing to lung breathing
arabella Ella: interesting
Pila Mulligan: our lung muscles are ntohing compared toour belly muscles
arabella Ella: true
Pila Mulligan: but for some reaons we make the change
Pila Mulligan: so first, it helps to use belly breahting
Pila Mulligan: and the 'secret' here is the role of the diaphragm
arabella Ella: ok am trying it now and it does really make a big difference ... amazing
Pila Mulligan: whem your belly extends out ward the doaphragm pulls air into the lungs
Pila Mulligan: when your belly contracts the daphragm ushes air out
Pila Mulligan: like a bellows
Pila Mulligan: pushes*
arabella Ella: yes
Pila Mulligan: if you can rekindle the habit of belly breating it feels better :)
Pila Mulligan: easier
Pila Mulligan: but you have to let the habit return
Pila Mulligan: ,eantime you can think about it
arabella Ella: yes and it is very true that it is something we tend to forget as adults
Pila Mulligan: two more tinhgs, if there is itme ...
arabella Ella: when we had practised some breathing here
arabella Ella: i had forgotten the importance of the diaphram
Pila Mulligan: go ahead please
Pila Mulligan: yep
arabella Ella smiles ... dont ty
arabella Ella: two more things ... yes?
Pila Mulligan: ok
arabella Ella: (I meant done)
aurel Miles: oops
Pila Mulligan: first, belly breathiing leads us to the relationship between movement and breahting -- like yoga and tai chi
aurel Miles: meant to tp
aurel Miles: bye again
Pila Mulligan: bye :)
arabella Ella: bye
arabella Ella: yes
Pila Mulligan: lets think about the relationship of benidng forward to pick something up form the floor
Pila Mulligan: with belly breathing
arabella Ella: ok
Pila Mulligan: it wouldbe easier to bend forward when your stomach is contracting
arabella Ella: yes just tried it ;)
Pila Mulligan: similarly, it is easeir to straighten back up whenyou inhale, when your belly expands
Pila Mulligan: this is first due to the space occupied by your belly
Pila Mulligan: if it is expanding it hepls push you up
arabella Ella: yes athletes tend to do this too i think
Pila Mulligan: yep
Pila Mulligan: now some old practiioners also observed that the iternal movement of breath energy -- chi -- also correpsonsds to the same principles
arabella Ella: yes?
Pila Mulligan: exhaling supports beding forward
Pila Mulligan: inhaling supports straigenting up
arabella Ella: mmmm
Pila Mulligan: bending
arabella Ella: yes
Pila Mulligan: so physically, externally, and internally, breathing relates also to movement
arabella Ella: sounds like it certainly does
Pila Mulligan: the seocond thing is a caveat ...
arabella Ella: amazing ... so simple ... yet so ... neglected
arabella Ella: yes?
Pila Mulligan: after long years of lung breathing we get used to running on a lower level of energy
Pila Mulligan: our bodies and minds and emotions are accustomed to that by habit
Pila Mulligan: we may have bad breathing habits that we are used to as well
arabella Ella: yes so we tend to get tired more easily
Pila Mulligan: so when we start to change to the belly bretahing habit. the change can sometimes habe disturbing results
Pila Mulligan: fromt he added energy
arabella Ella: why disturbing?
Pila Mulligan: because the rush of energy seems unusual
arabella Ella: even though ... in my opinion ...
Pila Mulligan: it seems in my expereince that about 20% of the people doing this have some upsetting expereince
arabella Ella: altho i feel i have lots of energy i could always do with more
Pila Mulligan: it is just a cautionary note .. not to rush forward if things weem uncomfortable
Pila Mulligan: let things proceed gradually
arabella Ella: ok thanks for the warning ... as you say one never knows
Pila Mulligan: usually the discomfort is the result of insuffieinct exhalation
Pila Mulligan: plenty of air coming in, not enough going out :)
arabella Ella: and ... how often should I start off trying to do this on a daily basis?
Pila Mulligan: overcharging
Pila Mulligan: whatever feels good, but I'd say 15 inutes a day is plenty to start
arabella Ella: sounds good to me
arabella Ella: thank you so much Pila this is certainly very helpful
Pila Mulligan: it is easy to do when sitting at first
arabella Ella: yes
Pila Mulligan: thenyou can start doing it also while moving around
arabella Ella: ok
Pila Mulligan: if you like
Pila Mulligan: I'm happy to help arabella
arabella Ella: i will definitely give it a go
arabella Ella: thanks!
Pila Mulligan: keep an eye on you feelings :)
Pila Mulligan: tour*
Pila Mulligan: your**
arabella Ella: i certainly will
Pila Mulligan: :)
arabella Ella: must go now but thanks once again really appreciate this support :)
arabella Ella: bye for now
Pila Mulligan: okay, see yu next time -- aloha